have you ever known a psychopath?

Here you can see how many different types of Psychopaths exists
Very good video

reply to post by borutp

Thanks for posting the video. It is excellent. It gives me hope that society may be waking up to the danger posed by this personality type. If that happens, methods may evolve for outing these freaks in our midst and ways of dealing with them may be developed, so that social milieus of all sorts don't have to be poisoned and crippled by them anymore. People may then be able to get on with real serious challenges that all of us face and stop having to spend so much time trying to keep a lid on the chaos in the psychopathic playpen.

reply to post by pasiphae

yes, years ago my best friend's older brother was a psycho . the guy had no conscious, thought to action no matter what the outcome and he never got in any real trouble. One night; we were at a hotel party and he pulls me to the side and we are talking and he says to me " just once i want to kill someone; i don't want to shoot them or run them over with my car but i want to knife them; do it up close and personal ; i want to feel them die, i want to feel the life run out of them." and he was dead serious. I always said that if i knew this guy was coming after me i would just leave.

reply to post by DCabal

Good times.

LOL! Welcome to ATS! Your first star is from yours truly....your post was thoughtful, and the ending made me laugh out loud.

Glad you got away from her...
see you on the boards!
--wt

i really had no idea my post would generate sooo many responses. i went to bed with 9 pages and i woke up to 12. thanks so much for all the responses!!! all of this has been really interesting.

someone posted that they couldn't believe we were wasting time talking about this and judging. so far i haven't seen any posts that i would consider judgmental. i think it's good to bring things like this to the front so we can learn from it and when you've been involved with a psychopath it can be good to talk to others who have had similar experiences.

Originally posted by allknowingmop
reply to post by pasiphae

 

Yes, i am said being, what would you like to know.

well, i guess i'd like to know anything you're willing to share. have you always been this way? or was there an event that triggered it? those are my starter questions.

reply to post by borutp


thanks for the video. very interesting. i was more interested in the first half. i think the psychopath i knew fell into a couple of those categories. he definitely fears getting caught and has carefully crafted his life to appear to be the direct opposite of what he is on the inside.

reply to post by MischeviousElf

You are more likely to be suffering from "Reactive Depression" from an wrong diagnosis and having this label put on you in Mental Health terms than any organic personality disorder or Sociopathy/Pyschopathy

I saw more harm done by "professionals" in this field to clients than the issues they had originally.

Label first then Drug them, no cures so lock them up.

The entire mental health Field is 100 years behind reality, and lives on the laurels of an Cocaine Snorting Pedophile Narcisist DR Fraud (expose the pun in the spelling)

Elf,
While I agree with your suggestion that needle might benefit from a second opinion, and be seeing a practitioner who is less competent than one would hope, I feel it is appropriate to make a distinction that is lacking so far in this thread.

I, too, worked in the field of mental health, as a Clinical Therapist Social Worker, NOT as a Psychologist. You are correct that some behavioral health professionals have done, and do, damage, and are poorly trained or misguded or ill educated or psychos themselves. But not all of them.

It's important for the readers here who are not familiar with the training or methods or approaches to understand the differences. There are many, many theories of human behavior, and many many different approaches and therapies to choose from, old ones being dismissed and new ones being developed.

A psychiatrist is an MD. A medical doctor. They prescribe medication. ONLY psychiatrists and MDs can prescribe. And ONLY psychiatrists among the MDs do "therapy" (so-called 'shrinks'). They, imo, are potentially the most dangerous (as you said above).

A psychologist has studied clinical therapy based upon the same "medical model" as psychiatrists -- the "disease/cure" perspective, and generally see themselves as the "expert" who is going to "cure" the "patient --the sick one." Some of them are trained and use Freudian theory, but not all. They are not MDs, though they may have a PhD.

Then we have clinical social workers. They work at the same level as psychologists, providing therapy and counseling to those who come to them for help. Clinical therapists who are Social Workers (at least at the school where I got my Master's) do NOT use the medical model. Many (but not all) are taught the Strengths-Based model and start from the platform of CLIENT SELF-DETERMINATION. The client is considered the expert on themselves, and the worker is the partner teaming up with them to identify goals, establish desired outcomes, and help the client acquire the skills and knowledge necessary to get them to their own stated goals.

They do not see themselves as "the expert" who is "curing" a "sick patient." While they may have expertise in a number of different theories, they still consider the client the expert on themselves. They also are not MDs, but may have a PhD.

THERE IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE in their training and approach. IT IS IMPORTANT for any person considering counseling to understand this difference BEFORE choosing as professional counselor. The two schools of thought are very different, and while they definitely both use the DSM-IV-TR as their "manual for diagnosis", they have completely differing philosophies regarding their relationship with the "client."

My aim with this post is not to challenge or criticize you, Elf, but to educate those who are not in the field to be aware that every therapist received training, but they do not ALL get the SAME training. Some schools are better and more progressive than others, and some theories are preferred at some schools where other theories are considered archaic (like the Freudian model) and ineffective.

Strengths-Based Social Work Practice

I urge anyone seeking or currently undergoing counseling to ask your practitioner what their training was. It is ESSENTIAL for therapy to be effective that the counselor is a GOOD FIT for the CLIENT'S needs.

reply to post by wildtimes


that was a great post. i think people make lump assumptions about therapy. there are so many different approaches and i agree psychiatrists are the most "dangerous". my own perception is that they don't think outside of the box. i personally don't like that.

we are all so individual and it takes time to find a good fit. there are good therapists and there are bad ones. just like anything else.

When I was 17 I dated a guy 9 years older than me. Lets see, he bit my face, held a recliner over me, pushed me down the stairs, chased me down an alley with a knife...etc. Those are just a few things I endured during our relationship. By the way, I lived with him and was too terrified of him to leave, but I eventually smartened up and left and went away to college. I think he counts as a psychopath.

Anyways, 2 years ago he hit a worker on the expressway and killed him and fled. They found him and now he is serving a prison sentence. Yet another example of why I believe in Karma.

Originally posted by SteffieJo
When I was 17 I dated a guy 9 years older than me. Lets see, he bit my face, held a recliner over me, pushed me down the stairs, chased me down an alley with a knife...etc. Those are just a few things I endured during our relationship. By the way, I lived with him and was too terrified of him to leave, but I eventually smartened up and left and went away to college. I think he counts as a psychopath.

Anyways, 2 years ago he hit a worker on the expressway and killed him and fled. They found him and now he is serving a prison sentence. Yet another example of why I believe in Karma.

wow. i hope karma works out in my case. so far... not so much but there's still time.

i'm glad you got out of it and went to college! so often you hear "i was too terrified to leave".

reply to post by pasiphae


I do understand when people are too scared to leave because I was at first too. The sad part is some of the women who are too scared to leave end up getting killed. I really feel that would have been my fate if I would have stayed. leaving was the best decision I have ever made and my college years were some of the best years of my life. And don't worry, Karma may take some time but it always shows up.

reply to post by SteffieJo


had he moved in with me like he wanted to things would have been so much worse. i would have been too scared to leave. luckily i only had that feeling for a week. i knew things would have to end with a fight and i was afraid of that fight coming so i avoided it like the plague. he was acting sooo much more strange i thought something really bad was going to happen.

just a few short months and it changed me forever.

so tragic for the ones who don't make it out alive.

Originally posted by jed001
reply to post by pasiphae

 

yes, years ago my best friend's older brother was a psycho . the guy had no conscious, thought to action no matter what the outcome and he never got in any real trouble. One night; we were at a hotel party and he pulls me to the side and we are talking and he says to me " just once i want to kill someone; i don't want to shoot them or run them over with my car but i want to knife them; do it up close and personal ; i want to feel them die, i want to feel the life run out of them." and he was dead serious. I always said that if i knew this guy was coming after me i would just leave.

I had the displeasure to meet several people with same kind of talk, yeah you really know that they are dead serious at time, I see them as cowards, predators, relaying in the weakness of their prey.
In their game all subordinates are in some way duped by their superiors, as that is how superiority is maintained. It is the wishful nature of such individuals to think they share the top of the food chain. Even psychopaths. Other are forced to uphold their allegiance due to blackmail, etc. Pressured people will betray their superiors when given the chance, and ambitious people may take the opportunity to initiate a frenzied power grab that breaks loyalties and dissolves cohesion, thus weakening its structure to the point of implosion. This will happen sometime soon in society, a world full of psychopaths would never work or they would expose all their cruelty and life preying on weaker.

reply to post by ipsedixit

American society is the leading edge of the new era of disengaged sympathy, of anti-empathy, of devil take the hindmostitude.

I thought you were going to talk about the medications that are developed so you can avoid your own empathy and control your moods.

It's definitely a downward spiral.

Religion isn't much help, but in a way I can see how a self-realized psychopath would be completely functional.

reply to post by ipsedixit


To add to your point about how wide reaching the effects of psychopaths in society are. In my understanding families are affected by the culture of psychopaths for generations. One psycho can affect say 5 generations who are all versed in the ways in being a hard arse or may be on the other end of the spectrum as an empath.

I've noticed this many times.

Originally posted by pasiphae
reply to post by wildtimes

 

that was a great post. i think people make lump assumptions about therapy. there are so many different approaches and i agree psychiatrists are the most "dangerous". my own perception is that they don't think outside of the box. i personally don't like that.

we are all so individual and it takes time to find a good fit. there are good therapists and there are bad ones. just like anything else.

I agree.

I also think that most of the good therapists are usually empaths, and most of the bad therapists are usually disordered sociopaths/psychopaths trying to disguise themselves as an empath.

reply to post by wildtimes


I studied and worked in Mental Health Nursing in the UK.

Jaded and frustrated and nearly depressed myself. would not be strong enough descriptions to state how it left me especially on Assesment wards and Sections.

So you are very true and thank you for balancing it, with your excellent post.

The reason I responded as I did, was that I found more benefits and "cures" by just simple empowering the clients to question the Label and with consistency and letting many clients take back their power and control amazing things happened, in an very short space of time. Where as years of "traditional" therapy of many different schools, many different medication had made the clients worse.

I was part once of a specialised team with extremely violent clients, 2 staff with them or 2 to 1 24/7. One of those clients had been in section lock down care since a child. Approaching 18 we were called in as he went to adult services I sat in an Multi Disciplinary meeting with Psychiatrists, Clinical Nurse Specialists, Social Workers, Psycholigists, OT's etc etc. Case notes could fill a small room due to severirty and nature of bahaviour.

One thing we were soo strongly advised on was one ever having your back the client, and secondley he had to wear a shirt and tie (since 8 years old!!!!) as a comforter, in pseudo speak from Dr Stranglove at the meeting it was a way of "empowering" him building his ego so he would not need to act out.... mmmm...

Also never never never to alow him to have either Crisps or Squash as he was prone to act out afterwards, a definate correlation had been observed between taking these things and being very High & and Manic afterwards.

This was in his notes, diagnosed by £100k a year dr's and "specialists" was part of his "care Plan" and also the most important thing in introducing new staff to him.

We had 2 weeks of this nonsence before we even met him.

No wonder people did not get on with him ey? talk about Brown Eyes students / Blue Eyed students experiment you will be aware of.

Anyhow both I and he was very lucky a very "open" minded & close team at last formed around him, love consistency and the "person" not the paperwork or gossip labels. Within 6 months he was munching as many crisps as he wanted, and drinking squash like every other young person when hot in the summer. We ensured he chose his food and drinks it was HIS money buying it.

Guess what no behaviour problems from it. We mentioned this in the next Multi Disciplinary and the "White Coats" got very aggressive and condescending saying we did not understand it must have been a differant make etc... So knowing people on the specialised unit he came from we found out what they had always used there. Got that again no problems lol.

After he had burnt out on testing my buttons after about 3 months, had kicked spat, thrown, punched headbutted etc and didn't win he started calming a bit with me, some of the rest of the team was about 6 months some 9 months till he had you "sussed". Most only lasted on average with him about 8 weeks at most, but as said a good team this time he had 4 people who stayed the course of 1 year with him and instead of controlling him, like always previously and showing no fear just patience and Love the most highly funded client in the country at the time started to make some amazing changes.

When he had stopped looking for my boundaries as above I ensured I started spending more and more time (reading the situation and being on shift a good few hours first) with my back to him or turned sideways, looking out of the window, or going close when he was sat in sofa just in front of him back to him down to put on a CD, not stopping doing dishes if he came behind.

He had never had that before. He changed so quickly with me it was profound. I would be angry to and paranoid and a bit hostile if ever person I ever met looked on edge, wouldn't stop staring at me, would move away and threaten "now NAME calm down and step back" "if you do anything we wont ....ie get a video..." if you came close to them.

Tie and shirt and 18 year old yeah right took him shopping, HE choose his clothes the thing he really wanted trainers and jeans, to be an teenager. I have never seen someone so happy for a pair of jeans he was over the moon.

Again his behavior changed, his self esteem improved, other kids and teenagers people were not now looking at him strange as he dressed like an 50 yr old before.

He was strictly forbidden to go to "pubs" "restaurants" when he had short times outside if mood right.

Sat in the back of the car opposite driver, with a worker next to him in back watching every move (as danger if went for driver) When I explained it was HIS car a lot of that stopped anyhow.... due to success with him we were having and the fact we had caught them out on his clothing and drinks/food etc contd..

contd...2

and such like they started giving us leyway so we started going to the Pub for a pub meal on an Friday night... obviously is viable.

He started to form his first bonds in the community, superficial maybe but real friendships with the regulars and bar staff.

When new staff came to work with him, I used to ensure the following "Name's bark is worse than his bite, some terrible terrible things happened to him when he was younger (which they did) I couldn't be as calm and relaxed and normal as him if it was me, I really respect him, give him time and I promise if you are patient the aggression wont last long, when he starts just laugh and say cmon lets have fun not be upset" and along those lines, than what had always happened before "beware, most aggressive client in country, 8x broken jaws with workers, 20 odd broken noses, attempted stabbings etc etc all in last 12 months oh and its all down to the Squash and Crisps"

Guess what eh, not rocket science these new workers modelling the good team around him, picking up on the relaxed vibes not having "expectations" had half as much as the incidents of previous teams new staff with him.

I gave him less PRN medication than any other worker who was ever with him, and guess what had shorter and less incidents than any other member of staff with him ever.

His behavior was learnt, as was the behavior of those working with him.

Most of his notes was complete bollocks.

1 year after the above, in a Multidisciplinary I and another good worker proposed we take him to Euro Disney on Holiday.

You could hear a pin drop, the looks from the white coats were incredulous OMG the Risk Assesments in our Pyschiatric opinion jaba jaba jaba...... So I said very loud and slowly and in an sarcastic way "like the Squash and Tie" then stated we would start planning and send us the risjk assesment we will deal with it.

^ onths later me and just one other worker drove (they wouldnt let us fly lol) from the UK to Euro Disney In Paris.

NO problems no issues just fun and more healing and a few normal "incidents".

1 Year later he went from 2 to 1 24/7 to 1 worker to him (if worked a long time with him) and sometimes being left alone if observed from an distance.

He lives in the community now, still goes to the pub is 1 to 1 and attends local college.

My experience and I cannot imagine what it must be like from the clients end, their entire life.

I experienced a few of these situations and clients in my time doing that, so I know its not Isolated at all.

The Frameworks, suggestions, Zimbardo Roles and White Coat syndrome is too prevelant imho in the field.

I hope what I added gives some hope real real change no matter what the label is possible, and also to balance the reason I said what I did.

I also think it is very very important people take what you wrote with much consideration to.

Love

Elf

PS anyone reading this if you have an "god" say a little prayer fro all those in institutions today both the Staff so they can "SEE the PERSON" not the diagnosis and also for the people. both those who should be there and the very unfortunate living hells for those who should not.

(batteries on keyboard goin sorry for any spelling gramah issues lol)

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Elf, what a perfect example of what I was hoping to get across! I have worked with dozens of children and youths in quasi-institutional settings. My first "job" was as a para-educator in an alternative school, a part of the public school system (which here in US is the one that is "free"--LOL yeah right, with tuition fees of several hundred bucks...not exactly "free"--) where they brought the kids in from all over the district who were too 'unmanageable' to be in the mainstream classrooms with their peers (1 teacher to 25ish kids).

They were labeled SBD/SED, severely behavior disordered or severely emotionally disordered. Their "case files" included the entire spectrum from Degenerative Brain Disorders (where the mind loses its knowledge rather than gaining it -- a tragic thing) to Intermittent Explosive Disorder (speaks for itself). The kids were grouped NOT by their behavior style, but by age. So we had classrooms of 6-8 kids who were suffering from quite different problems.

My job was to support the lead teacher by interacting individually with the kids and helping keep them on task, not beating on anyone, staying in the room, etc.

I could go on for days about these kids, how amazing each of them was in their completely unique way...but for purposes of this post in response to yours, I found I had a style of being (quite genuine, not contrived, as at the time I was no more than a classroom grunt who liked kids and had worked with them as a parent and day-care provider for several years) that the kids found approachable rather than dictatorial.

A quick examples of getting through to kids that the "specialist" have written off as "runners" and completely hopeless cases:

A twelve year old, a strong boy bigger than me who had a reputation of throwing chairs at people, ducking out of the school and running....your story reminded me of him...had been dx with Intermittent Explosive. He would go from calm and laughing to absolute rage for the tiniest things...and the staff were "wary" of him like you describe. I'd been in his classroom from the start of the school-year before, so he knew me (a year and a half of daily contact), and we had developed a real relationship between two people...from vastly different backgrounds, age groups, life experience, etc. One day I was the only person in the classroom and he came in from another room (art class, maybe?) pitching a typical fit, and horrible tantrum. I heard him coming from down the hall. He burst into the room with all his bluster showing, and saw that no one save myself was there.

He immediately and I mean INSTANTLY turned off the tantrum and looked around, and said, "Oh...well if you're the only one in here, Ms Name, I won't throw a fit." I said simply, "Thanks, Name," and smiled at him.

Each student I treated as an an individual worthy of effort, of being heard, and being helped, not being "treated".

Thanks very much for your response, Elf. I, too left the field, and believe me I know exactly what you are talking about. EXACTLY, and it's part of the reason I retired from it....the other part was that I really do not have the ability to just "leave it at work". The people I came to know were important to me, and I was too susceptible to literally "feeling" their pain. It became unbearable...I had two kids to raise, but I was losing my grip and getting too caught up in the people I worked with so I had nothing left to give my own....I was drained, exhausted, but I know that what part of me I offered, and what parts of them they gave to me, were something that touched us both, in every case.

Love and empathy,
--Wild