What Really Happened in Roswell 1947?

Originally posted by Cosmic911

Originally posted by ProfessorT
Bob Lazar may never be taken as a serious witness which is sad and unfortunate because many Ufologists believe his claims and they do seem credible enough although I seem to remember there were some issues surrounding his education claims, etc. Didn't he take a lie detector as well? He was the first person to really disclose anything from 'the inside' which you could say is the reason we're debating such a topic today - his input changed the world of Ufology for ever.

Bob is definitely an interesting person with a fascinating story. Many people believe him, many do not. I'd like to believe in him. Apparently there are no educational records verifying his credentials. Bob claims he attended MIT & CalTech. Those are pretty substantial claims. He hasn't produced a single shred of evidence or proof to back up those claims. Not a single document. Not a graduation tassle. Not a college sweat shirt. Nothing. Not a single student has verified that they were classmates. He claims the government has erased his education to discredit him.

Lie detectors can be fooled so no one really puts any faith in them. You can't use them in court so why believe what they say or do not say. He did disclose information on S-4. And I think Area 51 to some degree. George Knapp was able to locate his name in a Los Alamos Lab phone directory, although they denied he worked there. Some people say he probably was employed at Los Alamos as a sub-contractor or something, which is why they don't have any record of him being employed by them.

edit on 30-12-2011 by Cosmic911 because: (no reason given)

I think that is a good reason to disregard Bob Lazar as a credible source, although it is possible that he is relaying (and perhaps embellishing) stories he has heard from others - maybe even from people who were working at Area 51. And it is quite possible that some of this stuff was deliberate disinformation. With John Lear, because he obviously does have some credentials and probably does have some contacts, I tend to think he has also heard some stuff. Some of which is true, and some which is pure disinformation. The disinformation taints and obscures all the parts which are real, so it becomes almost impossible to tell if there is any truth to anything he says. That is the way disinformation works and it is easy to see why the US military would use these tactics to obscure valid information on real US tech programs as well as stuff that they really know about ET encounters.

I met a guy at a NUFORC meeting who was retired but had worked many years on secret radar technology programs at Area 51. All the stuff he referenced sounded quite feasible since they were related to known spy aircraft. But when he was taking to us, he showed us an "aerial photo" from Area 51 which had what looked like a "disc UFO" hovering over a road and rather generic desert topography. I was with someone who thought he was showing something real, and he got really excited, taking pictures of it. I later looked at his photo, and to me it just looked like some 5 minute photoshop job. The guy didn't actually claim it was evidence of any "alien tech" at Area 51, but he certainly did seem to be suggesting that. I concluded he was just playing games but you never know, it is possible he was trying to plant disinformation to perpetuate the myth that the US is back engineering alien technology at Area 51.

reply to post by bluestreak53


Interesting story! It's so difficult to determine what's real, fake, or half-truths. Disinformation is a powerful tool to say the least! We may never know the truth!!

I think something very unusual happened in Roswell. There are too many first hand accounts of extraordinary things. Most of the top people in the US military were alerted and or on the move right after the story broke. Add in the multiple cover stories we've been given over the years and it seems to make a strong case for ET crashing on a stormy night in the desert.

By the way, I had a thought about one of the items that the witnesses say they saw. The foil thin sheet that they couldn't dent with a sledgehammer. It might have been Graphene. They say that to poke a hole in a sheet of Graphene the thickness of Saran Wrap you'd have to use force equal to balancing an elephant on a pencil. It also wouldn't burn easily since it's made of carbon.




ATS Source
Original Source

Originally posted by bluestreak53
Yes. "Open minds" does heavily promote hoaxes.

w w w . o p e n m i n d s . t v does not heavily promote hoaxes. And no, the case about Philip Corso is not hoax, it has never been labeled as that either. Beside, it corroborates with what Bob Dean told what Phil Corso told him

B: I knew Phil fairly well. He and I were speakers at several conferences together. And in Italy I got to know him pretty well. Phil shared with me things that he had had happen to him. Not just what he had seen, but that he had personal contact with an alien at White Sands.

He was in charge of the security of the range one time. And something came in, the radar picked it up. He hopped in his car and went out to see what the hell it was. There is a UFO sitting on the ground. There's a guy standing beside it, and Corso walks over to him and says, you know, "What the hell are you, who are you, and where are you from, and why are you here"?

This fellow says, "I just came to talk". Corso asks him, "Well, are you with us, or are you agin' us?" Simple military type question. You know, are you with me or are you against me? This guy says, "Neither, we're neither for you or are we against you". He had a conversation with this guy that lasted over an hour.

The guy says, "Please turn off your radar, it disturbs my control or my guidance system, so I can leave." Corso went back to the shop, or back to the headquarters, and turned off the radar... and away he went. I got to know through the old boys network dozens of guys like myself, who were as excited and enthused about the thing as I was.

Starting with the Diving Company who discovered a missing F-89 (and later a flying saucer!!!) on the bottom of Lake Superior. It turned out that the Diving Company did not exist and the guy who invented the hoax (who called himself "Adam Jimenez") took down his website and stopped answering phone calls. He has never been heard from again.

Do you have any link to show it here, to support your claim? This still doesn't have anything to do with Philip Corso.

Or how about Clay and Shawn Pickering who claimed they knew a US Naval Officer who had been involved in Secret UFO Briefings at the UN. This dragged on for an incredible amount of time and Open Minds gave Clay and Shawn their own forum. It turned out their "Source A" was discovered to be Richard Thielmann, who was discovered to be making up all sorts of things, including his naval career.

Do you have any link to show it here, to support your claim? This still doesn't have anything to do with Phil Corso.

Originally posted by bluestreak53
You're right! I can't prove it because I just made it up.

I knew you made it up, and thanks for confirming it! Gotcha...

Just to make the point that the source seems to be taking some other person's account and adding all sorts of details.

You need to be more clear. How does the source seems to be taking some other person's account and adding all sorts of details?
This does not discredit what Chief Golden Light Eagle said.

While the Roswell incident certainly has many valid witnesses, it has unfortunately attracted a huge number of people who insist on piling on their own "mythology" which has made it much harder (perhaps made it impossible) to discern what is true, and what is just crap.

Chief Golden Light Eagle mentioned that "she" the "scientist" (Zeta Reticulan) told him that. Are you saying that this Zeta Reticulan lied to Chief Golden Light Eagle? And what's the point to lie to a Native Indian? The 'Big Nosed' Greys reportedly can't be trusted, but i very doubt that this Zeta Reticulan lied to Chief Golden Light Eagle.

Originally posted by Anunaki10
In this interview Chief Golden Light Eagle "Standing Elk" mentioned that he was in "contact" with one of the Star races who "told him" of 18 UFO crashes in the United States in 1947 from 10 different star races visiting Earth, because "she" (one of the aliens who piloted one of the crashed UFOs) lost focus for just one second that allowed the combination of Atlantean energies, the experimentation of Radars and lightning storm to cause the UFO's engine/guidance system to malfunction that lead them to crash.

Chief Golden Light Eagle also mentioned Pleiadians among the star races visiting Earth, and he is not the only one who mention Pleiadians. In this speech, Chief Golden Light Eagle show an I-Beam with symbols as he says represent spiritual and universal laws, and it's these symbols that were reportedly given by 'Starpeople' who manifested during sweat lodge ceremonies.
Chief Golden Light Eagle mentioned that "she" (Zeta Reticulan) was killed by a rifle butt, which is also corroborated by this

The soldiers could not approach the wreckage for some time, as it was radiating a lot of heat. Even more extraordinary were the four beings lying beside the crashed saucer. Barnett's account sensitively refers to these beings as "Freaks." The "Freaks" were screaming and clutching small boxes close to their chests. Barnett apparently arrived while it was still dark, since he says the army could not move in on the downed saucer and the "Freaks" until six A.M. The "Freaks" screamed louder as the GIs approached, and refused to give up their mysterious boxes. One soldier hit a "Freak" with the butt of his rifle and thereby persuaded the creature to part with its apparatus.

Three of the beings were taken away still alive. The fourth was dead (killed by the blow of an M1 butt?). The medical team was reluctant to treat the strange beings for their injuries, but they overcame their fear and rendered assistance. Barnett went on to film the wreckage. His statement describes the broken-up debris as being from exterior struts that supported a smaller disk on the underside (now up?) of the large saucer. The corpse of the dead "Freak" was packed in ice.

Obviously, it must be a government cover-up of some kind. It would be no fun at all if it really was no big deal.

Could you imagine the devistation it would cause to conspiracy junkies and UFO freaks if they ever found out it really was a weather balloon? It would be like proving to Christians that God doesn't exist.
Fortunately, that will never happen. Their standards of evidence are too high to believe any explanation that simple and unsatisfying.

Originally posted by PhilipMarquis89104
Obviously, it must be a government cover-up of some kind. It would be no fun at all if it really was no big deal.

Could you imagine the devistation it would cause to conspiracy junkies and UFO freaks if they ever found out it really was a weather balloon?

You do know that even the Air Force have admitted that it definitely wasn't a weather balloon don't you. You know that the Air Force report about Roswell - the fourth/fifth different story we have been insulted by - doesn't stand up to scrutiny even if you take the lowest standards of enquiry? You are aware of the efforts to silence and discredit people who.... In fact I'm not wasting any more breath.

Are you making blind assertions from a position of ignorance or are you deliberately misleading people? Or just trolling? Sorry to be direct but I'm tired of being surrounded by so called skeptics who never bother to correct deniers like you when what you post is based on wrong information but post responses within minutes to contradict or discredit posts supporting other positions.

ATS members, try to look beyond the fact that I am being slightly aggressive to an apparent "newbie". Do I have a point or am I right. Take your pick, there is no other correct reply.

P.S. PhilipMarquis89104, I apologise for the tone in advance. I am just trying to deny ignorance. None of us have all the answers but you need to have a pretty broad knowledge base before being in a position to dismiss UFO researchers as UFO freaks.

reply to post by Pimander


I agree....people should look at the mountain of facts including the U.S. goverments own files that were found hidden after the Freedom of Information act. Roswell was a BIG DEAL...and the thought that the USAF would spend all this time and effort to discredit and release report after report of something that others consider a non-event...has no logical basis. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
Roswell was a BIG DEAL...and the thought that the USAF would spend all this time and effort to discredit and release report after report of something that others consider a non-event...has no logical basis.

The apparent absence of a logical basis in the way Air Force Intelligence respond to any UFO data in the public domain is now established policy. It seems to be something the rest of the USAF are comfortable with, even many pilots keep their mouths shut.

I'll stick to being sceptical of the claims of prominent UFO researchers, prominent ATS members AND, of course, sceptical of any official US sources of information. They all seem to have got it wrong even more times than I have and that's saying something....

reply to post by Pimander


Pimander...you touched on something in this post. There is a directive and very uncomfortable process a pilot must go through after reporting a UFO. My family member is a former USAF F-15 pilot. He now works for a major airline.

We have talked in depth about this and he has told me that...even if a pilot does see a UFO...unless the UFO is placing their Jet whether it be civilian or military....pilots do not say anything fearing the inevitable process.

We also talked about a subject I already knew and that was that there is a protocol on how and to who a pilot must inform and be debriefed once reporting a UFO. Once reported...that pilot is going to go through hell and I cannot defend this course of action by both the Agency and the USAF.

Thus....many sightings go unreported. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Pilots in the UK, especially military trained ones (which includes most commercial pilots) are the same. Unless it is something massive or they suspect passengers might report it in numbers they tend to keep silent. There are many exceptions but privately pilots admit they haven't reported everything they have encountered. I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries but my guess is that it is no different in Canada, Australia etc.

reply to post by Pimander


You would be correct Pi. The exception is France....in your venacular....Bloody Pains in the Asses!
Why we ever let them be on the U.N. Security council beats me. LOL! Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


So USAF pilots are witnessing UFO's in the process of what you think? Abductions? Secret Meetings? First time visiting? If there is no need to report a UFO, then someone knows what they must be doing? So pilots don't have to report them?

I know you said the main reason not to report a UFO is with the inevitable process which I'm assuming is your reputation and your career. Could the inevitable process be set up in such a way on purpose? So no one chooses to report a UFO?

Originally posted by Pimander
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Pilots in the UK, especially military trained ones (which includes most commercial pilots) are the same. Unless it is something massive or they suspect passengers might report it in numbers they tend to keep silent. There are many exceptions but privately pilots admit they haven't reported everything they have encountered. I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries but my guess is that it is no different in Canada, Australia etc.

But when Bill Birnes asked Captain Ray Bowyer why he came forward, he replied, "The law. It's what you have to do. It's the British system." I have the link handy here, where you can hear it 20 seconds into the video:

UFO Hunters

has anybody seen this.. i know the source is bit laughable, but see what you think- www.thesun.co.uk...

has anybody seen this.. i know the source is bit laughable, but see what you think- www.thesun.co.uk...

Originally posted by game over man
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

So USAF pilots are witnessing UFO's in the process of what you think? Abductions? Secret Meetings? First time visiting? If there is no need to report a UFO, then someone knows what they must be doing? So pilots don't have to report them?

I know you said the main reason not to report a UFO is with the inevitable process which I'm assuming is your reputation and your career. Could the inevitable process be set up in such a way on purpose? So no one chooses to report a UFO?

This is basically the fact....and it scares me because I WANT my USAF pilots reporting UFO's...this system is flawed. Split Infinity

reply to post by xpoq47


Yes...Pilots are supposed to report anything that might interfere with aviation...but the system has destroyed many carrers. Because of this...they don't report. My family member who flew F-15's and now is a big wig leader of a Union for a large airline....and who also was one of the USAF pilots who were assigned to escort Gorbachav on his visit and plane travels around the U.S.....has said...NO WAY is a guy going to throw away his entire military carrer and future to report UFO's....period! Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
Yes...Pilots are supposed to report anything that might interfere with aviation...but the system has destroyed many carrers. Because of this...they don't report. My family member who flew F-15's and now is a big wig leader of a Union for a large airline....and who also was one of the USAF pilots who were assigned to escort Gorbachav on his visit and plane travels around the U.S.....has said...NO WAY is a guy going to throw away his entire military carrer and future to report UFO's....period! Split Infinity

This is interestering. Yeah, military pilots were ordered not to speak openly about UFO encounters, for example Milton Torres was ordered to keep his mouth shut about the UFO he was ordered to shoot down

“Soon, still in my flight suit, I stood at attention beside the telephone. I was told I had been on an extreme high secret mission; that I was to discuss it with no one, colleagues, no one. I was ordered to sleep that night at the air base and warned I would be getting a visit from someone from the US Embassy tomorrow.”

Next morning in the Squadron Operations area, a sergeant came for Torres and took him to an American sounding civilian in a dark trench coat.

The stranger flashed National Security Agency ID papers at him, then debriefed the pilot on last night’s mission and declared it was highly classified and was not to be discussed with anyone, not even his commander.

He threatened the young pilot with a national security breach. If he breathed one word about it - he’d never fly again!

There is the case of the two missing F-14s reportedly kidnapped by a baseball field sized UFO near Puerto Rico in 1988

I noticed that he didn't seem to want to go into detail for some strange reason. This was not normal for him. Normally, this man, a dedicated sailor and skilled technician, would have been eager to tell me anything he could about an aircraft mishap including his own speculations. But, not this time.
The navy would lose a plane somewhere ever so often and we would usually get word of it very quickly through unofficial channels in the naval aviation community—and personnel were usually eager to pass on what news they could. I knew my shipmate had friends in that squadron from previous visits he had made to Roosevelt Roads Naval Air Station or, "N.A.S. Rosy Roads", as we always called it. But, it was unusual to hear of two planes being lost in one day and even more unusual for it not to be due to a midair collision. And, as if that wasn't enough, it was becoming even more unusual because he was being reluctant to talk about it. I pressed him.
>>Well, what happened?Oh, I can't really talk about it>There's an investigation still ongoing...>Well, can you tell me anything else?