What Really Happened in Roswell 1947?

Originally posted by ProfessorT
John Lear is just a pain in the backside..... Even his departure from this forum seemed to be a conspiracy to him.

Here is John's side of the story - from just after 0:04:00. He actually has copies of the emails and posts etc. if anyone wants to view them.

Originally posted by ProfessorT
But as Cosmic911 quite rightly says lie detectors are not 100% proof positive however, they are used a lot perhaps not in a court of law for obvious reasons but they can prove effective.

If he'd failed though, no doubt plenty of folks would have jumped on it as proof he was lying.


On Lazar.... Don't forget, it is not unheard of for people to be zeroed. You'll have to look into it for yourselves and IT IS a sensitive topic. I'm not saying the Lazar story is all true/false, but it is not as cut and ddried as it's made out to be is all.

Good luck in your researches.

reply to post by Pimander


I did not come across that part yet. I guess the intact craft was the crash site, and more important site, north of the Roswell crash site? I wonder where that craft was sent then? It doesn't sound like it went to Wright Field, which would have been the obvious facility at the time, right?

I'll have to find that part in the book.

reply to post by Pimander


This is the most lucid and sane I have ever seen John. Made me think twice about some things.

But in regards to Lazaar, I still don't believe him. I'm former military and I have many friends who currently hold, and formerly held, secret clearances because of their jobs. I have friends who work for contractors like Lockheed and KACI. Lazaar just doesn't fit the profile. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whom the government would share these kind of secrets with. Unless of course they picked him for a reason, that no one would believe him and it was a disinformation scheme. What do you think???

Originally posted by godisaastronaut
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

What happened? Whatever the the official explanation is it is not.

That's obvious as there have been four "official explanations" by the USAF. Each explanation making less sense than the previous. At some point the government may have to admit what happened as their so called explanations are getting less sensical and more ridiculous over time. The sceptics and researchers are getting more cunning and determined to figure out what happened.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
Very interesting thread. When you at the evidence in its entirety it would suggest the U.S. would definitely try to shoot down any and all UFOs over NM at that time period. Is there any documented testimony from pilots who say they shot down a UFO in 1947? That would be cool to hear.

As I say, it's a bit awkward but there is more.... I am involved with a project but have to save material as exclusively for the project. I know people try to make out that that is in some way sinister but commanding a fee is a legitimate profession for thousands. I also have to consider promises made to my writing partner.

Sorry I can't be more help at this point but will obviously give interested parties on ATS the heads up when I can.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
This is the most lucid and sane I have ever seen John. Made me think twice about some things.

But in regards to Lazaar, I still don't believe him. I'm former military and I have many friends who currently hold, and formerly held, secret clearances because of their jobs. I have friends who work for contractors like Lockheed and KACI. Lazaar just doesn't fit the profile. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whom the government would share these kind of secrets with. Unless of course they picked him for a reason, that no one would believe him and it was a disinformation scheme. What do you think???

Bob thinks exactly what you do- that he was picked. Controlled leak? Disinfo? Take your pick but it isn't cut and dried.

Is it really that surprising John looks sane and lucid? He is an experienced pilot for a start....

Originally posted by bluestreak53
Really? Did this "Chief Golden Light Eagle" have anything to back this up? How do we know it wasn't 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races, all because "she" placed a piece of chewing gum on the "spacecraft navigation system". LOL

As you may guess, I think your references are complete nonsense and prove absolutely nothing. Its like one idiot makes up a story and three more have a need to embellish it to impress more gullible idiots who read this sort of nonsense as it gets spread on sites like this.

Chief Golden Light Eagle is in contact with the spiritual world, and is more spiritual than you will ever be, and he is not the only one who have been "contacted".

You need to point out where it states 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races. Just because Cliff Stone mentioned 57 alien species, it doesn't necessarily mean that the native indians mentioned 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races. Let me guess, YOU CAN'T POINT IT OUT...

You also need to point out where it states that "she" placed a chewing gum on the navigation system. Let me guess, YOU CAN'T...

I tell you what, i think that you think that my references are not nosense at all. Another thing, you will NEVER EVER be able to discredit these people, no matter how hard you try...

Open minds is an even worse source for information than this site. It has heavily promoted many known hoaxes.

Are you sure it's the same site you're talking about? Please point out what hoaxes they promoted. Let me guess, YOU CAN'T POINT IT OUT...

Originally posted by bluestreak53
Really? Did this "Chief Golden Light Eagle" have anything to back this up? How do we know it wasn't 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races, all because "she" placed a piece of chewing gum on the "spacecraft navigation system".

It's obvious you don't take these cases seriously. You're wasting your time here for nothing. A good advise, it would be a good idea for you to back off...

Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by Cosmic911
This is the most lucid and sane I have ever seen John. Made me think twice about some things.

But in regards to Lazaar, I still don't believe him. I'm former military and I have many friends who currently hold, and formerly held, secret clearances because of their jobs. I have friends who work for contractors like Lockheed and KACI. Lazaar just doesn't fit the profile. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whom the government would share these kind of secrets with. Unless of course they picked him for a reason, that no one would believe him and it was a disinformation scheme. What do you think???

Bob thinks exactly what you do- that he was picked. Controlled leak? Disinfo? Take your pick but it isn't cut and dried.

Let's assume he was a controlled leak for a minute. What would have been the point? Does anyone have any theories on this assumption? We still don't have disclosure? I don't think we're any closer to disclosure. Is disclosure even the motivation here?

Let's say disclosure was not the intention but disinformation. Definition:

"The dissemination of deliberately false information, esp. when supplied by a government or its agent to a foreign power or to the media, with the intention of influencing the policies or opinions of those who receive it; false information so supplied." (from Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed., 1989)

A couple different ideas. If the government used Bob to spread disinformation about UFO's was it to conceal the identity of top secret aircraft like the F-117. Or, by definition, disinformation is deliberate false information. Let's pretend E.T. UFOs don't exist for a second, why spread false information about something that may not exist? Or if E.T. UFOs do exist, why bring in someone to create a disinformation campaign only to continue to deny its existance (I think I just went cross-eyed!)

The purpose of disinformation is to spread deliberately false information. But if E.T. UFOs are real, then it really wouldn't be disinformation, because, in fact, UFOs are real! So we're back to the crux of the question...what was the purpose? (Now my head hurts!) lol

Let's assume Bob is a "controlled leak." Is it with or without his knowledge? If he is working for the government as a disinformation agent we shouldn't believe him, right? Maybe? Maybe not? If they are using him without his knowledge, we can't be certain to trust him because we pretty much know he lied about his educational credentials. This damages his credibility. Which bring us back to the original question...Why?

Originally posted by Cosmic911
The purpose of disinformation is to spread deliberately false information. But if E.T. UFOs are real, then it really wouldn't be disinformation, because, in fact, UFOs are real! So we're back to the crux of the question...what was the purpose? (Now my head hurts!) lol

Even if ET UFOs are real, the best disinfo contains some elements of truth with false facts to throw "whoever" off the scent.

I agree - it does make your head hurt trying to grapple with this slippery eel.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Pimander

 

I did not come across that part yet. I guess the intact craft was the crash site, and more important site, north of the Roswell crash site? I wonder where that craft was sent then? It doesn't sound like it went to Wright Field, which would have been the obvious facility at the time, right?

I'll have to find that part in the book.

Yup, Wright Field is exactly where foreign wreckage would/should have gone and even the USAF said in their Roswell report that that's where it went.

Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by Cosmic911
The purpose of disinformation is to spread deliberately false information. But if E.T. UFOs are real, then it really wouldn't be disinformation, because, in fact, UFOs are real! So we're back to the crux of the question...what was the purpose? (Now my head hurts!) lol

Even if ET UFOs are real, the best disinfo contains some elements of truth with false facts to throw "whoever" off the scent.

I agree - it does make your head hurt trying to grapple with this slippery eel.

Ha ha...I love these discussions. (my brain is now bleeding)

Yes, disinformation contains some elements of truth. Good point!

So let's say the government wanted to throw us off the UFO idea...all they really did was draw unwanted attention to the matter. In fact, it kinda drew a lot of attention to Area 51 too. I don't want to assume but I think drawing attention to Area 51 was not in the plan. They had to have known that Bob would expose Area 51 to the degree that he did. I don't think they would have wanted that. Since then, the USAF has bought up more and more of the surrounding areas around the base. Unless of course, its just more disinformation. But I don't think this makes sense.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Pimander

 

This is the most lucid and sane I have ever seen John. Made me think twice about some things.

But in regards to Lazaar, I still don't believe him. I'm former military and I have many friends who currently hold, and formerly held, secret clearances because of their jobs. I have friends who work for contractors like Lockheed and KACI. Lazaar just doesn't fit the profile. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whom the government would share these kind of secrets with. Unless of course they picked him for a reason, that no one would believe him and it was a disinformation scheme. What do you think???

He does to me. Bob Lazar is like the typical geeky scientist we all envisage. When he was younger he presumably had very little in the way of family or friends which is why when he went in for these top secret posts he was given them - because his employers probably thought he would keep his mouth shut. His story is interesting - some parts are true -- even if they are tinged with fantasy.

Originally posted by ProfessorT

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by Pimander

 

This is the most lucid and sane I have ever seen John. Made me think twice about some things.

But in regards to Lazaar, I still don't believe him. I'm former military and I have many friends who currently hold, and formerly held, secret clearances because of their jobs. I have friends who work for contractors like Lockheed and KACI. Lazaar just doesn't fit the profile. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whom the government would share these kind of secrets with. Unless of course they picked him for a reason, that no one would believe him and it was a disinformation scheme. What do you think???

He does to me. Bob Lazar is like the typical geeky scientist we all envisage. When he was younger he presumably had very little in the way of family or friends which is why when he went in for these top secret posts he was given them - because his employers probably thought he would keep his mouth shut. His story is interesting - some parts are true -- even if they are tinged with fantasy.

What parts are true?

The Grays?
The Sport Model Spacecraft?
The Briefing Manuals - reverse engineering - The Dulce Incident?
Papoose Dry Lake - S4 ?

reply to post by ProfessorT


It seems we may never know the truth. Was it a lie? Was it the truth? Was it half-truth half-lies? For me personally, the evidence or lack of evidence points to one of two possibilities. 1) He was lying or 2) He was used as disinformation (either with or without his knowledge). But for me the lack of evidence points to the former. His lack of educational credentials and forged W-2 are two major strikes against him. The more logical explanation is often the correct explanation.

If he wasn't lying and he wasn't used for disinformation, then he should be in federal prison for violating his secrecy oath and disclosing top secret information. But to play devils advocate, if the Feds tossed him in jail for disclosing the presence of UFO, this, of course, would confirm the existance of extraterrestrials. However, I'm sure the Feds would have had their revenge on Lazaar if he committed any "real" damage.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
Ha ha...I love these discussions.

(my brain is now bleeding)

Yes, disinformation contains some elements of truth. Good point!

So let's say the government wanted to throw us off the UFO idea...all they really did was draw unwanted attention to the matter. In fact, it kinda drew a lot of attention to Area 51 too. I don't want to assume but I think drawing attention to Area 51 was not in the plan. They had to have known that Bob would expose Area 51 to the degree that he did. I don't think they would have wanted that.

Now I am speculating - before you jump down my throat members.

What if they were testing saucers? They knew they could discredit Bob fairly effectively. Now most people think they aren't test flying saucers. Fairly effective disinfo. The Grey may or may not have been a doll/model. Maybe the saucers were real.

Ok, getting off Lazaar and back to Roswell, I'm sure you guys are aware of Commander George W. Hoover.

One of the most acclaimed Naval scientists in U.S. military history has stated unequivocally that the Roswell crash of 1947 was not of a balloon nor was it a hoax. Based on evidence he had seen in an official capacity, the Commander was instead convinced that the crash represents an event with deep implications for all of mankind. Universally acknowledged as the “grandfather” of satellite technology – and a close associate of Dr. Werner von Braun – Commander George W. Hoover has revealed that the truth about Roswell is far stranger that we have ever dared to think.

Cmdr. Hoover had an impressive career in the Navy and I find his testimony highly credible.

His son revealed the following:

· Hoover was -in an official capacity – made privy to Roswell crash information in the 1950s or earlier

· Hoover related some of this information to Hoover Jr. as early as the 1960s!

· Hoover told his son “on a number of occasions” the he had personally “seen the evidence about the Roswell crash event that convinced him that it was neither a balloon nor a hoax”

· Hoover Sr. either would not, could not or did not wish to elaborate any further on this with his son, even after several conversations

· Hoover Sr. had “both a personal and a professional interest in UFOs”

George Hoover Jr. confirms that his father spoke of the Roswell crash – by name – as early as the 1960s. This is yet another powerful example of people privately speaking of the Roswell crash well before “all of the hoopla” of media attention in beginning in the 1980s and 1990s.

Hoover Jr. also confirms that his father was “professionally” involved in the study of UFOs while at the Navy. He further confirms that his father knew positively – by personal examination of evidence that he deemed conclusive – that the Roswell crash was not resultant from the crash of a balloon and that it was not a hoax. Just what exactly it was though, Hoover Sr. did not seem to want to tell his namesake son.

article link

Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by Cosmic911
Ha ha...I love these discussions.

(my brain is now bleeding)

Yes, disinformation contains some elements of truth. Good point!

So let's say the government wanted to throw us off the UFO idea...all they really did was draw unwanted attention to the matter. In fact, it kinda drew a lot of attention to Area 51 too. I don't want to assume but I think drawing attention to Area 51 was not in the plan. They had to have known that Bob would expose Area 51 to the degree that he did. I don't think they would have wanted that.

Now I am speculating - before you jump down my throat members.

What if they were testing saucers? They knew they could discredit Bob fairly effectively. Now most people think they aren't test flying saucers. Fairly effective disinfo. The Grey may or may not have been a doll/model. Maybe the saucers were real.

Ok, I think I follow you. So then my question is this...I wonder what was happening during that time that the government felt the need to throw people off the UFO kick? Was someone getting close to the truth? If that's the truth, do you think it was effective?

Originally posted by Anunaki10

Originally posted by bluestreak53
Really? Did this "Chief Golden Light Eagle" have anything to back this up? How do we know it wasn't 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races, all because "she" placed a piece of chewing gum on the "spacecraft navigation system".

It's obvious you don't take these cases seriously. You're wasting your time here for nothing.

A good advise, it would be a good idea for you to back off...

edit on 31-12-2011 by Anunaki10 because: (no reason given)

I certainly don't take much off this seriously because it is all people repeating stuff that seems to be entirely fabricated out of thin air by people who were never there. If you want to deal with reality, you should refer to the original witnesses to the event.

Originally posted by Anunaki10

Originally posted by bluestreak53
Really? Did this "Chief Golden Light Eagle" have anything to back this up? How do we know it wasn't 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races, all because "she" placed a piece of chewing gum on the "spacecraft navigation system". LOL

As you may guess, I think your references are complete nonsense and prove absolutely nothing. Its like one idiot makes up a story and three more have a need to embellish it to impress more gullible idiots who read this sort of nonsense as it gets spread on sites like this.

Chief Golden Light Eagle is in contact with the spiritual world, and is more spiritual than you will ever be, and he is not the only one who have been "contacted".

You need to point out where it states 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races. Just because Cliff Stone mentioned 57 alien species, it doesn't necessarily mean that the native indians mentioned 96 UFO crashes from 57 different star races. Let me guess, YOU CAN'T POINT IT OUT...

You also need to point out where it states that "she" placed a chewing gum on the navigation system. Let me guess, YOU CAN'T...

I tell you what, i think that you think that my references are not nosense at all. Another thing, you will NEVER EVER be able to discredit these people, no matter how hard you try...

You're right! I can't prove it because I just made it up. Just to make the point that the source seems to be taking some other person's account and adding all sorts of details.

While the Roswell incident certainly has many valid witnesses, it has unfortunately attracted a huge number of people who insist on piling on their own "mythology" which has made it much harder (perhaps made it impossible) to discern what is true, and what is just crap.

Originally posted by Anunaki10

Open minds is an even worse source for information than this site. It has heavily promoted many known hoaxes.

Are you sure it's the same site you're talking about? Please point out what hoaxes they promoted. Let me guess, YOU CAN'T POINT IT OUT...

edit on 31-12-2011 by Anunaki10 because: (no reason given)

Yes. "Open minds" does heavily promote hoaxes.
Starting with the Diving Company who discovered a missing F-89 (and later a flying saucer!!!) on the bottom of Lake Superior. It turned out that the Diving Company did not exist and the guy who invented the hoax (who called himself "Adam Jimenez") took down his website and stopped answering phone calls. He has never been heard from again.

Or how about Clay and Shawn Pickering who claimed they knew a US Naval Officer who had been involved in Secret UFO Briefings at the UN. This dragged on for an incredible amount of time and Open Minds gave Clay and Shawn their own forum. It turned out their "Source A" was discovered to be Richard Thielmann, who was discovered to be making up all sorts of things, including his naval career.