Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

reply to post by wildtimes

Anyway, if you have the time to read through ... give us your thoughts! IMO, the main participants are schmae, silo13, dav1d, myself (wildtimes), if you care to read through our posts to get up to speed.

Hi, Wild, thanks for your comments. I have really only been following this case through Silo's thread, although, every now and then, I do Google Baby Lisa's name to see if there's any breaking news. Poor Silo, I'm sure when she started this thread, she had no idea it would go on this long.

I am not completely up to speed on this thread, but I have to say, this case has some of the most bizarre circumstances I've ever seen.....from the cell phones being taken to the mom buying a box of wine, to the mysterious appearance of the high-profile investigator...and much more that I'm sure I have yet to catch up on.

As I'm sure everyone here is finding out, it's very hard not to draw certain conclusions when parents of a missing child don't behave the way you would expect them to in this situation. But, I have to say that up to this point, I am very suspicious of this mother, simply because of her conflicting statements. Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced she necessarily killed the baby or anything like that, but something in my gut tells me this woman is behind this for the purposes of garnering some attention. There are quite a few people like this out there, as sad as that may be. But, unfortunately, there also seems to be a growing number of parents that have no problem killing their own kids. Why we have these kinds of tragedies occurring more frequently nowadays is curious at best.

The witness statements involving a man carrying a baby down the street in the middle of the night is very weird. And, while it does take the heat off of the mom by appearance, I am not quick to take her out of the equation just yet. I feel this baby is still alive. I hope I'm right. Another thing I would like to add is, please remember that when these things happen, there are many freakos out there that contact the police with bogus information, simply because it's how they get their jollies. Police have to sift through tips carefully to decipher the b.s. from the potential leads. Sometimes, they do wind up on a wild goose chase because failing to follow-up on the simplest tip could be tragic. I do not envy these cops, either. It is an emotionally taxing type of thing for them to go through.

A couple of years ago, a little 8-year-old girl went missing in my county for several days. It was heart-wrenching for the parents, who, by the way, were never suspects in her disappearance. As the media camped out night and day, a female neighbor of this child was feeding the media bits of info that wound up drawing suspicion to her. We were devastated the afternoon we saw the breaking news that the little girl's body had been found stuffed in a suitcase and floating in an irrigation ditch. Everyone's heart was broken. But more unbelievable was that the woman feeding the media info was the killer. She was eventually arrested and charged with raping (yes raping) and killing this little girl....all on her own. I believe she was one of the only...if not the only woman to ever be charged with the raping and killing of a female child in this country. The police were heartbroken.....and they openly showed their emotion. Anyway, my point is, that sick, twisted woman was feeding the media information because she loved the attention. Her friends came forward and said this is the kind of person she was, too. There are no words to describe this kind of thing. All I can say is, thank goodness I had quit working for our local Public Defender's office, or I may have well been assigned that case. It would have been very hard to stomach trying to defend a woman like that.

I apologize.....I know that's very off-topic.....but I just think it gives an example of the kind of mentality that's out there in our society today. Our children are at risk at every turn, it seems.

I'm sorry I don't have more in-depth comments to offer, but l really don't feel I have read through the details of this case enough to say anything more than that without informing myself a little better, which I will....and I'll come back. You guys have posed some very good points. Seems we have some natural-born investigators here at ATS.....LOL

Talk to you soon.

edit to add: It's always bothered me that the dog never barked if someone actually did come into the house and take this child and walked around gathering cell phones.

reply to post by HedyLamarr

Hi Hedy, nice to see you back. Thank you for the video updates.
I want to ask you a question about the first video you posted.
Watch it at 21:20 and be ready to pause it.
Tell me your opinion of the photos. You'll know them when you see them. (Or to make it easier you could just flip back in this thread a page or two and see the 'stills' I posted).

Thanks.

peace

reply to post by NightGypsy

HI again Night Gypsy

As I'm sure everyone here is finding out, it's very hard not to draw certain conclusions when parents of a missing child don't behave the way you would expect them to in this situation. But, I have to say that up to this point, I am very suspicious of this mother, simply because of her conflicting statements.

Even doing your best to give the parents the benefit of the doubt it’s tough not to point fingers. So many inconsistencies neither of them are believable any longer. But, we need to stay open minded. Why? Because if we keep looking too hard at the parents we might miss something really important.

Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced she necessarily killed the baby or anything like that, but something in my gut tells me this woman is behind this for the purposes of garnering some attention. There are quite a few people like this out there, as sad as that may be.

Who knows? We could be looking at a Munchausen by Proxy case gone wrong - meaning Lisa got sick but they hadn’t escalated into the ‘hospital phase’ yet.

There are various theories regarding the cause of Munchausen Syndrome. Dowdell and Foster theorize that a mother may feel that a sick child can bring her closer to her spouse. It is more likely, however, that mothers suffering from this disorder “have had an emotionally deprived childhood with a high probability of a history of physical abuse,”

Which has been confirmed in Deborah‘s case - Loosing her mother to a suspicious death blamed on drugs and alcohol (suspected suicide). A long family history of abandonment, abuse and neglect (that information coming directly from family members).

The women are most likely depressed and insecure, and channel their personal inadequacies into abusive behavior, which in turn produces gratifying attention for themselves. The environment of a hospital also gives the mother a chance to rid herself of parental responsibility while medical personnel tend to her child. If a mother realizes an increasing detachment from the family in the father of her child, she may resort to hurting her child in order to restore cohesiveness in the family. An absent spouse also leaves the mother plenty of time alone with her child to inflict injuries and sickness that she otherwise may not be able to inflict in the presence of her husband.

This really caught my attention in reference to Deborah’s stating ‘Lisa was the glue that was going to hold us together’. It might not be Munchausen, but, it could be something very close.

The witness statements involving a man carrying a baby down the street in the middle of the night is very weird. And, while it does take the heat off of the mom by appearance, I am not quick to take her out of the equation just yet.

Considering those ‘sightings’ are under heavy suspicion no I wouldn’t rule out the parents. One woman who didn’t even admit to seeing the ‘man and baby’ at the beginning (her husband did) then pipes up with her version, later changing her version to a ‘bald headed man’. The other? There’s two sightings - originally one was a African American, the other a white man. Far too many inconstancies.

I feel this baby is still alive. I hope I'm right. Another thing I would like to add is, please remember that when these things happen, there are many freakos out there that contact the police with bogus information,

You bet!

Your recount of the 8 year old girl in your country helps to remind us not to stop looking ever, at anyone, any possibility, even the last person on the list whould at some point be the first and under microscopic scrutiny. Thank you for sharing - heartbreaking as it is.

It's always bothered me that the dog never barked if someone actually did come into the house and take this child and walked around gathering cell phones.

That, and, since the police ruled out the ‘intruder’ came through the ‘broken screen’ - WHO broke it!!!

Thanks so much for adding your insight - we really appreciate it and really, make sure and keep us updated on your thoughts!

peace

UPDATE ON NANCY GRACE PHOTO INFORMATION

*If you have not seen them scroll down at this link - I don't want to post them again.

I contacted the person on YouTube about the video. I asked her if she did ANY manipulation to the videos. Her answer was a resounding NO!

She replied MANY of her subscribers complain about Nancy Grace's show and how they doctor the photos. So no, this is not a 'just by chance' and it's not a coincidence.

It's just plain sick.

peace

reply to post by silo13


Wow! Thank you for pointing this out! Pretty creepy! I too think that Nancy did something to the pictures, but not sure why...

reply to post by silo13

Who knows? We could be looking at a Munchausen by Proxy case gone wrong - meaning Lisa got sick but they hadn’t escalated into the ‘hospital phase’ yet.

Oh, very GOOD POINT, Silo.....I had not even thought about that. Does this child have any history of frequent visits to the family doc, though? I wonder.......

You are on the ball, Silo.....very interesting, indeed.

Edit to add: Perhaps you should consider work in investigation, Silo, if you do not already do such work. I'm being serious. Not many people can maintain an unbiased viewpoint while examining crimes, but you do it very well. Sometimes, even though I've had an opportunity to work on both sides of the legal spectrum, I even have a hard time with it....LOL

Please don't tell me this thread has steered its way into saying the mom now may Munchhausen by proxi syndrome..

You are on the ball, Silo.....very interesting, indeed.

yes... grab that ball and run with it Silo... very interesting indeed..

oh...and lets all remember to remain open minded ..while you continue to find such interesting ways of casting doubt towards the mother.

Edit to add: Perhaps you should consider work in investigation, Silo, if you do not already do such work. I'm being serious. Not many people can maintain an unbiased viewpoint while examining crimes, but you do it very well. Sometimes, even though I've had an opportunity to work on both sides of the legal spectrum, I even have a hard time with it....LOL

Unbiased?...*couch cough *... there maybe a few on this thread that have been unbiased, and silo is not one of them in my opinion.

And..yes..its obvious to see why you would have a hard time ..

reply to post by NightGypsy

Just one of those questions we'll probably not see answered for a long time.
I know there were 4 bottles of prescription medicine I spied on the top of their refrigerator - I've TONS a questions about those, but again it could mean everything, or nothing at all.

The police haven't mentioned anything about Lisa and her pediatrician or if she even had one but I'd still like to know. All the pictures of her look healthy and she isn't an undernourished little girl so can safely rule out any long term abuse - but that doesn't negate the Munchausen like behavior might not have just started (if at all of course).

Also - People forget Irwin and Bradley have not been together that long - just over two years if you can believe the dates. (It was reported they moved in together in 2009). Just about the time the 'honeymoon' is over - not more pregnancy and the attention that brings... Lisa's no longer a tiny baby but a child in herself - no longer a 'mini-me' as Deborah was known to call her.

Once again a lot that adds up but we don't have all the facts so it could be something or nothing at all.

Thanks!

Edit to Add: I like a good mystery. Problem is this one is real. It hits too close to home for personal reasons. I had no idea when I started the thread it would go on so long. I couldn't have imagined Lisa wouldn't be home soon. My point - I'll stick to mysteries and gardening! Thank you for your kind words though.

LUD (Local Usage Details) is a detailed record of local calls made and received from a particular phone number. These records are regularly available to police in the United States with a court order, and were traditionally subject to the same restrictions as telephone tapping.
LUDs may be legally used by the police without first obtaining a warrant, as determined by Smith v. Maryland (1979).
Other terms for call records include CDR (Call Detail Records) or SMDR (Station Message Detail Recording). These terms normally apply to "raw call records" before they have been processed to apply locations and rates.

I believe that LUDs are available for phone numbers so this could have come from a land line....

Maybe a mod can delete this

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Dav1d

 

Actually I do not believe that has been established at all!

It was established via her former Ft Bragg friends, that she was prone to doing things that made her not cool to be around. Way back when they interviewed them. It's just hearsay, but it was established...

Not cool to be around does not in my mind translate to being attention seeking automatically! Nor does hearsay establish a thing in my opinion.

What if the other biological parents are granted temp. custody of the boys? Say the parents are arrested and when you get arrested your kids go to foster care UNLESS they have another family member willing and able to take them . So the 2 bio parents take their sons home and then allow those sons to speak with police unfettered? Interesting.
Sorry off the current topic, but my mind is all over the place today.

Originally posted by schmae
What if the other biological parents are granted temp. custody of the boys? Say the parents are arrested and when you get arrested your kids go to foster care UNLESS they have another family member willing and able to take them . So the 2 bio parents take their sons home and then allow those sons to speak with police unfettered? Interesting.
Sorry off the current topic, but my mind is all over the place today.

To arrest someone you need more than a belief and a hope...
Of course we are also talking about the KCPD who according to their chief of police couldn't get info on who kill someone if there were fifty witnesses....

LOL say the child protective services takes their children, they would be granted custody of the children, and could make those choices without a need to resort to the other biological parents. Of course, that might require years of therapy to correct the emotional damage done to the children....

reply to post by gabby2011

Took the words right out of my mouth, gabby. I've followed this thread from page 1 and some of the completely baseless speculation that is being thrown has gone beyond far-reaching to downright ridiculous.

Here's my theory. Deborah really really wants to be in a Hollywood movie and be famous and make lots of money. So she had a friend kidnap the child and take her to Europe while the the mom got drunk and made up a whole story to get attention knowing that someday she'd be able to garner a movie deal out of it. Meanwhile, Jeremy is a closet transgender who hates himself so much and is so insecure without Deborah that he'll go along with her story no matter what.

See how this can work?

Thank you to whoever the poster was a couple of pages back that brought up the phone call in the middle of the night and provided more info on it. I had been wondering what had happened on that.

reply to post by Dav1d


True David, but the 2 other parents are suddenly available and talking and the bio mom of Jeremy's son has hired an attorney. So I'm just wondering if a custody case is about to come of it. Then I got to thinking if these 2 were arrested, there would be no need for a custody case because the boys would probably go directly to their other bio parents. Unless there is something in their history that excludes them from visitation.

reply to post by Redux

Took the words right out of my mouth, gabby. I've followed this thread from page 1 and some of the completely baseless speculation that is being thrown has gone beyond far-reaching to downright ridiculous.

And now you've added to it. Nice to have you here. Keep up the good work.

Peace

reply to post by schmae

Schmae, I wonder how that would work with Jeremy's ex? He won full custody and she hasn't even seen her son in 2 plus years - plus she's in a 'group home'? With all the attention on the case I'd suppose CPS would get involved at some point? At least I'd hope so...

Have a great weekend!

reply to post by Redux

Here's my theory. Deborah really really wants to be in a Hollywood movie and be famous and make lots of money. So she had a friend kidnap the child and take her to Europe while the the mom got drunk and made up a whole story to get attention knowing that someday she'd be able to garner a movie deal out of it. Meanwhile, Jeremy is a closet transgender who hates himself so much and is so insecure without Deborah that he'll go along with her story no matter what.

that was cute..and it isn't that far off from what some have seemed to want to speculate about on this thread..

Thank you to whoever the poster was a couple of pages back that brought up the phone call in the middle of the night and provided more info on it. I had been wondering what had happened on that.

yes..I wonder if they have the range or area from where the call was made..That would be some of the most important eveidence to have..and hopefully is being pursued intensely to find some more clues.


Guess Silo is giving out cookies for any information on the number called.. to see if it is close to the "Irwin's phone #'s)

Quote by Silo13

Tells me it was an intentional call though maybe a wrong number. I'd give a case a a cookies to find out what the numbers are to Jeremy's cell phone compared to Megan's number, and on down the line.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Redux

 

Took the words right out of my mouth, gabby. I've followed this thread from page 1 and some of the completely baseless speculation that is being thrown has gone beyond far-reaching to downright ridiculous.

And now you've added to it. Nice to have you here. Keep up the good work.

Peace

If you didn't catch the intended sarcasm in my proposed scenario, it just further proves my point.

Cyndy Short's exit is bad news for baby Lisa Irwin

Cyndy Short’s abrupt exit from the Lisa Irwin saga strikes me as bad news for the missing baby and her family.

Based on what we’ve seen, the lawyer still representing Lisa’s parents, New Yorker Joe Tacopina, operates much differently. He’s spent little time in Kansas City and he thrives on interviews with the national media. I’m sure he wants a good outcome for his clients, Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, but he’s representing them because the case is high-profile.

There’s little use in asking why Short is off the case. That’s a matter between attorney and client and Short is too professional to drop any hints. Her departure is a small mystery within a very big mystery: What happened to baby Lisa Irwin.

Not much of a mystery to me. What parent would continue to engage a lawyer who referred to their missing 11 month old daughter in the past tense and has done so at every opportunity for a week or more?

Not only is it demoralizing but has led the public to believe Short 'knew more than she could tell and just couldn't stomach it any longer.' NOT what anyone would want from their defense lawyer.

peace