"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

reply to post by Annee


I have yet to understand why you are constantly lecturing on "Equal Rights for All" on this thread. I agree with you, everyone should have equal rights, I have NEVER said otherwise.

Before we move on lets get things straight.
1. I do not condone denying rights to anyone, for whatever reason, other than harming another human being.
2. I wish all the happiness and love for gays and heteros, both in marriage and relations.
3. Gays should have the right to adopt children just as heteros do, under the same scrutiny and standards that will give the child a loving and providing home.
4. I disagree that gays are an abomination to God, I think God has worse things to condemn.
5. I don't judge gays for their sexual orientation. Like I have constantly repeated, it doesn't freakin matter.

I have NEVER took the position of denying Gay rights, yet you constantly bring up this subject as if I do. Not liking something and denying someones rights are two DIFFERENT things.

Now can we get back to the subject at hand?

reply to post by DrChuck


Fair enough.

I agree with the OP and Wayno. I think you can be friendly - - but I don't think you can be a true friend of a gay person - - if there is any "but" directly in regards to them being gay.

You keep saying its not about their sexuality. And I agree. Its about gays being normal and natural as they are born.

Why do you keep using the term sexuality?

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by DrChuck

 

Fair enough.

I agree with the OP and Wayno. I think you can be friendly - - but I don't think you can be a true friend of a gay person - - if there is any "but" directly in regards to them being gay.

You keep saying its not about their sexuality. And I agree. Its about gays being normal and natural as they are born.

Thats where I disagree. There are a million "buts" in any friendships. But when you say that I can't be a true friend with a gay person because I don't like homosexuality, your only looking at the homosexuality part of the person.

You are confining him/her with nothing but that single attribute. And that is what I disagree with. Homosexuality is merely a part of that person, don't forget the smiles they bring to others, the terrible cooks they may be, the ambitions or accomplishments, the temperaments and pleasantness, fortitudes and vulnerabilities - all of this and more make up a person.

You can't discount everything else just because gays are constantly persecuted.

Why do you keep using the term sexuality?

Well, I ran out of words. What else should I use? I've overdone sexual preference, orientation, and inclination. And I hate repeating words.

Originally posted by DrChuck

That's where I disagree. There are a million "buts" in any friendships. But when you say that I can't be a true friend with a gay person because I don't like homosexuality, your only looking at the homosexuality part of the person.

I know we disagree.

But . . . I just drove 5 hours from AZ to CA to my daughters house. Am hanging out with her and her gay roommate - - who's family just pretends he isn't gay - - cuz they can't accept it.

Tired. Probably a bit grouchy.

Peace and good night

reply to post by Resurrectio


Of course homosexuals aren't pedophiles. I still would not want a homosexual man watching my son. I would not want a straight man watching my daughter either. It is my own personal feelings. Nowhere in my sentence am I saying I believe homosexuals are pedophiles. Some are, just as some straights are, but it would be stupid of me to say they are as a whole. Criticize me if you want I honestlydont care, but I wanted to share how my personal feeling is about that whether right or wrong in your eyes.

Originally posted by Annee
Like I said - - my mom had polio - - before the Disability Act - - a business could refuse to let her enter - - just because she made other customers uncomfortable. And YES - - this did happen more then once.

I do not know what it is to be gay - - but I do know what discrimination and inequality is - - and how it feels.

Generaly speaking, i'm willing to bet that a good sum of people that read and contribute their opinions and thoughts on ATS know, to some degree, what it feels like to be discriminated against. Jews, Muslem, Christians, Athiest, Redheads, disabilities, blacks, whites, really whites, ect.

I can appreciate what your mom went through for such a long time to conquer her problems, and still remain strong as she possibly could. Many people today destroy themselves because they dont "fit". They cant take it. I cant say that I know her degree of persecution but I admire people who can bare such a burden.

I was never led to believe that it's wrong to accept the people around you, and in accepting them, know them and share your knowledge with them. Diffrences shouldnt hinder that. Neither side should overstep the others boundaries and things they hold sacred. Same as marriage. To many it's a holy thing, and a very sacred thing. If they believe by the bible, the GOD of those words, then there is a conflict. I dont understand how we as a people take only bits and pieces of a source and use only what they feel is acceptable. As with religion, we might walk the walk but we dont follow everything. Many just carry the title for reputation sake. I can never say that a gay person would go to hell. The GOD I know is forgiving and just. (JUST) ...you cant barter.

If my GOD says it's forgivin in the end, or its ok, I will be delighted. It's a burden they no longer have to bare. But still I remain curious of why? How? If it is something that isnt genetic (remember, the body does some wonderous things that kind of lets us program ourselves, so why couldnt this alter DNA or what not?) I would like to know. If it's something that's formed from bad behavior or abuse, then it should be looked into and remedied.

Originally posted by Resurrectio
reply to post by theRhenn

 

Just shut up!! You made a very stupid comment and now are trying to fall back on some philosophical reasoning.
You wrote a sentence, not quoting anyone. You realized how ignorant your comment was, and came back for damage control... And... In true sociopath form you'll state something along the lines of " I dont care what you think I meant"... If you didn't, you wouldn't be here posting!

?

reply to post by DrChuck

Thats where I disagree. There are a million "buts" in any friendships. But when you say that I can't be a true friend with a gay person because I don't like homosexuality, your only looking at the homosexuality part of the person.

DrChuck, there are some "buts" that supercede all the other factors that go into friendship.

I don't agree with abuse, either physical or mental. Someone who is repeatedly abusive and not getting help for it would not be my friend no matter how many other things I might like about the person.

I don't agree with hard drug use. There is no one who abuses hard drugs who is a friend of mine. Acquaintance, yes, friend, no.

A person who "disagrees" with or "dislikes homosexuality also cannot be a true friend to me so long as they believe those views. How could they be if they hold such negtive views about something that is such a central, part of me? My sexual preference is only one part of who I am, but it is a biggee. It probably doesn't matter for work, family, recreation and many facets of life, but it does matter for friendship.

reply to post by MarineSniper12Kills


Why wouldn't you let a straight man babysit your daughter? That is a very odd "rule" to have. It really is a mute point, due to the fact that most straight men are not interested in babysitting. But to imply that "for your childs safety" you would not let a person, that is attracted to a grown version of that child, babysit that child, is insane.

By saying you wouldn't let a homosexual watch your son is very telling of your own thoughts. You do know, that most people are not attracted to children right?

I would have stated "Being homosexual does not make you a pedophile". But after your statement " I would not let a straight man watch my daughter", my statement will be "just because your human doesn't mean your a pedophile."

They are your kids, I am not telling you what to do... I have rules with my kids, that others would find ridiculous...

Fact remains.. You will not let a straight man watch your daughter or a gay man watch your son.. I must assume you have this rule to protect your kids..

Protect them from what?

Implying that a gay man, because he likes men, is more of a risk to your son that a straight man, and likewise with a straight man with your daughter, is ABSURD!!

I'll be honest... I would let an entire dance crew of homosexuals watch my kids over you watching them...

Originally posted by theRhenn
Neither side should overstep the others boundaries and things they hold sacred. Same as marriage. To many it's a holy thing, and a very sacred thing. If they believe by the bible, the GOD of those words, then there is a conflict.

Perhaps this irrational judgment of a normal and natural birth group - - - determined by ancient writings - - - attributed to a mystical being - - - which there is zero proof of - - - is why I am now Atheist.

As previously stated. Seizures and Leprosy were once believed to be possessed by the devil.

Recently an albino boy was killed because of Fear and Belief.

Some say we should allow for religious belief. I Don't. We are beyond the era of ignorance - - or we should be.

reply to post by Resurrectio


That is understandable....I never was the kind of man to babysit little girls other than my own. I can see where you think I am wrong. I respect that, but I am not going to change my lifestyle over someone elses beliefs.

reply to post by Resurrectio


I find it absurd that you come here and criticize beliefs. Who are you again to tell me what I believe is wrong?

reply to post by MarineSniper12Kills


Why is it odd that I am voicing my disagreement with your opinion. I am not saying things like " You should do this" Or "why don't you try this"...

I am simply doing the same thing you are... I am giving you my opinion.. I am not dilusional, I completely understand that my opinion is only my opinion....

I am not making a judgment of your person .. Just your thoughts on homosexuality when it comes to interaction with kids. Thats all.

The most confrontational thing I said was this

Implying that a gay man, because he likes men, is more of a risk to your son that a straight man, and likewise with a straight man with your daughter, is ABSURD!!

And I stand by my statement.. Statistically it is ABSURD!

I try to be a friend to all, my personal compass for navigating my life is irrelevant to that.

TC,

If you are asking me to befriend only those with whom I am in agreement with on how to live life, then you are asking me to embody the very thing that angered you enough to create this very thread in the first place.

Not to mention in so doing, you, yourself are embodying that thing that inspired you to create this rant in the first place...

How ironic, eh?

Might I suggest we let all souls find their way through this universe and reserve our judgement for ourselves and hold onto our stones until we have thoroughly and completely pummeled ourself into perfection! If then, there are any rocks left-over in our bags, perhaps we can begin to tell others how to live. I'll let you know when I get there.

reply to post by Resurrectio


Since" statistically" that's absurd....how about show some statistics to back your remark up.

reply to post by MarineSniper12Kills

Dr. Carole Jenny was the director of the Child Advocacy and Protection Team at Denver's Childrens Hospital, and she also directed medical programs at the C. Henry Kempe National Center for the Prevention and Treatment of Child Abuse and Neglect. Dr. Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 269 medical records of Denver-area children who were sexually abused by adults. Of 50 male children, 37 (74%) were molested by men who had been in a heterosexual relationship with the child’s relative. Three were molested by women, five were molested by both parents, and three others were molested by non-relatives. Only one perpetrator could be identified as being possibly homosexual in his adult behavior.23

"In 1992, alarmed over claims made during a campaign for an anti-gay state constitutional amendment in Colorado, two physicians reviewed every case of suspected child molestation evaluated at Children's Hospital in Denver over a one-year period. Of the 269 cases determined to involve molestation by an adult, only two of the perpetrators could be identified as gay or lesbian. The researchers concluded that the risk of child sexual abuse by an identifiably gay or lesbian person was between zero and 3.1%, and that the risk of such abuse by the heterosexual partner of a relative was over 100 times greater.[8]"
Source(s):
www.robincmiller.com...

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by DrChuck

 

Thats where I disagree. There are a million "buts" in any friendships. But when you say that I can't be a true friend with a gay person because I don't like homosexuality, your only looking at the homosexuality part of the person.

DrChuck, there are some "buts" that supercede all the other factors that go into friendship.


A person who "disagrees" with or "dislikes homosexuality also cannot be a true friend to me so long as they believe those views. How could they be if they hold such negtive views about something that is such a central, part of me? My sexual preference is only one part of who I am, but it is a biggee. It probably doesn't matter for work, family, recreation and many facets of life, but it does matter for friendship.

I probably have a slim chance at being your friend, because you won't accept my opinions. And you are in full authority to choose the standards and principles of your own friendships. And obviously your definition of a friend is much different from mine.

I have friends who are gangsters, scholars, Christians, atheists, Muslims, gay, excessively gossipy, belligerent, stubborn, selfish...but you know what? I accept them for who they are, I dislike some things about each one of them, and I hate certain things about each one of them. And some of the things I dislike they can't change, its just a permanent or innate part of them. And a true friend takes the good and the bad, the likes and dislikes, making the bond even more stronger. A true friend accepts all of you whether he likes all of you or not, hes there when you need him, share deepest of secrets, share time and memories, quibbles and brawls, helps you when your defeated and celebrates your victories.

Holding negative views, yet fully accepting the entire person as they are is entirely possible. I accept my friends sexual orientation, I accept that thats who he is and that its a part of him. Just as he accepts me as a heterosexual, although whether he does or doesn't, matters not.

If you hold your sexuality as your central element, then yes, you will probably never accept my friendship. But do all gays identify themselves first and foremost a homosexual? Do you? Or do you not have much more significant attributes that make up your personality?

As far as I'm concerned, ones sexual inclination has nothing to do with their personalities, morals, or virtues. [

Originally posted by DrChuck
A true friend accepts all of you whether he likes all of you or not, . . .

Holding negative views, yet fully accepting the entire person as they are is entirely possible. I accept my friends sexual orientation, . . .

Fully accept all of you - - - would mean fully accepting a person as gay.

Accepting your friends sexual orientation.

I don't think this is what you said or implied previously.

reply to post by wayno


One of my good friends and colleague is gay. I won't write his name for privacy, but lets call him Sam. I don't go around introducing him as "This is my gay friend, Sam". I don't think of him or refer to him as "one of my gay friends". Hes just a friend.

This guy is the nicest and most patient man I have ever met.
Hes Chinese.
Hes a podiatrist and gives one mean foot massage.
Hes a terrible cook, and his palate is even worse.
He practices an ancient Chinese palm-reading technique that can pin-point your personality and bring some light to your reincarnated past life/lives (although I don't believe in this hodge-podge the personality analysis is eerily accurate.)
He thinks he can outdrink me, but I don't think so.
He always laughs at my fiances jokes, no matter how stupid they are. But he always tells me my jokes are stupid no matter how funny they are.
He has family issues due to being gay, and I have sat with him through many beers, tears, and cigarettes listening to him and comforting him.
Hes a doctor that actually treats patients pro bono when they can't afford it.
He has helped, guided and comforted me when my fiance and I were literally in shambles, calling it quits. With his counsel, my fiance and I are back together stronger than ever, and forever grateful to him.
Hes short.
He respects my opinions, just as I respect his, no matter how much we disagree on certain subjects.
He knows I don't like homosexuality, and constantly uses that to pull pranks on me.
He fell in love, and is very happy. Its actually a funny story. But thats a long story.

With all of this between us why must I "like" or "agree" with his homosexuality to be his friend?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by DrChuck
A true friend accepts all of you whether he likes all of you or not, . . .

Holding negative views, yet fully accepting the entire person as they are is entirely possible. I accept my friends sexual orientation, . . .

Fully accept all of you - - - would mean fully accepting a person as gay.

Accepting your friends sexual orientation.

I don't think this is what you said or implied previously.

It has always been implied, never said. If I didn't accept his homosexuality, I wouldn't be his friend. If I didn't accept another of my friends belligerent behavior, I wouldn't be his friend either. I don't like it, but I understand its a part of him. And I don't need to like it.

In fact, why do I even need to accept it? Someones sexuality is not a intrinsic factor for a friendship. Sexual inclination is at best trivial when it comes to choosing friends. It doesn't tell me what kind of person he is, nor does it any way fill or void any aspect of a friendship.