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Over 1 Billion Muslims and Growing

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posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 05:03 AM
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Hmmm first you say Mohammed is proven by the bible and that Jesus mentioned his coming. THEN you say I cannot back up ANYTHING I believe because my Bible is corrupt?? So how can you back up what you say about Mohammed from the Bible???

IS MUHAMMAD MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE?

by

Dave Miller, Ph.D.

Islamic apologists have attempted to bolster the credibility of their beliefs by claiming that the Bible, itself, makes reference to the coming of the prophet Muhammad. This claim comes even in the face of the prevailing Islamic contention that the Bible has been corrupted, and thus cannot be relied upon as an accurate record of God’s Word. Nevertheless, at least four Bible verses are referenced. The reader is urged to weigh these claims in light of the exegetical evidence.

First, Muslims appeal to Isaiah 29:12—“Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, ‘Read this, please’; and he says, ‘I am not literate.’ ” Muslims insist that the book referred to in this verse is the Quran, that the one to whom the book was delivered is Muhammad, and that the one who ordered Muhammad to read the book is Gabriel. They claim that Muhammad fits the description of this individual, since Muhammad was illiterate when the angel Gabriel revealed the words of Allah to him.

To understand the context of the verse, one must remember that Isaiah, who lived in the 8th century B.C., is known as the “Messianic prophet” because he prophesied so many details about Jesus—not Muhammad. Isaiah 29 is in a context in which God pronounced woes on Judah for her sins at that time, i.e., 702 B.C. The context indicates that within a year, the great Assyrian king Sennacherib would lay siege to Jerusalem in 701 B.C. (vs. 3). Jerusalem (called “Ariel”) would be attacked by her enemies and punished for her crimes against God, and then those enemies would, themselves, also receive their just desserts (vss. 4-8). God’s people were in the throes of deliberate spiritual blindness, and Judah’s false prophets/seers were not helping the situation (vss. 9-10). Notice that Isaiah then described the unwillingness of the people of his day to heed the truth by comparing them to a literate person who is told to read something, but refuses, excusing himself by saying the document is sealed (vs. 11). It then is delivered to an illiterate person, but he excuses himself by saying he cannot read (vs. 12). The point is that the people of Isaiah’s day refused to pay attention to God’s Word spoken through His prophets. They did not want it! Verses 13-16 explain that because of their closed minds, they would all suffer for their rejection of His Word when the Assyrians arrived to besiege the city. But, as usual, God revealed a better day when people would listen (vss. 17ff.). Having examined the context, it is transparently evident that these verses have absolutely nothing to do with Muhammad!

A second verse that Muslims brandish in support of their claims is the promise of a coming prophet in Deuteronomy 18:18—“I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.” Muslims claim that the prophet to whom God referred was Muhammad.

Again, a simple examination of additional biblical evidence reveals that the statement made to Moses was divinely intended to refer to Jesus Christ—not Muhammad. Shortly after the establishment of the church of Christ and the Christian religion (in A.D. 30 in Jerusalem on the first Pentecost after the death and resurrection of Jesus—Acts 2), two of the twelve apostles, Peter and John, went to the Jewish temple and healed a lame man (Acts 3:1-11). When people began to gather in large numbers out of amazement at what had happened, Peter used the opportunity to preach the Christian message to them (Acts 3:12-26). He made several crucial points pertaining to the person of the Christ: (1) the recently crucified Jesus was, in fact, the One Whom the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had glorified (vs. 13); (2) God had raised Him from the dead (vs. 15); (3) it was the “name” (i.e., authority/power) of Jesus, and faith in Him, that procured the miraculous healing of the lame man (vs. 16); (4) the suffering of Christ was predicted previously by God through the prophets (vs. 18); (5) at the conclusion of human history, God will send Jesus back (not any of the prophets, let alone Muhammad)—an unmistakable reference to the Second Coming of Christ immediately preceding the Judgment (vss. 20-21; cf. Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.). It is at this point that Peter quoted from the passage in Deuteronomy and applied it to Jesus—not Muhammad (vss. 22ff.). Peter’s inspired application is unmistakable; he clearly identified Jesus as the fulfillment: “God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities” (vs. 26).

A third verse marshaled by Muslims to gain credibility for their viewpoint by linking their beliefs to the Bible is John 16:7—“Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I go not away, the Helper will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him to you.” Again, Muslims claim that Jesus was referring to Muhammad.

Anyone who has spent even a minimal amount of effort examining the teaching of John chapters 14, 15, and 16 is astounded that anyone would claim that the “Helper” (NKNV), or “Comforter” (KJV), or “Counselor” (RSV, NIV)—the one who stands beside (paracletos)—is to be equated with Muhammad. The three chapters have as their setting Jesus giving His twelve apostles special encouragement and specific admonitions in view of His eminent departure from the Earth. He reassured them that even though He was about to exit the planet, He would not abandon them. They would not be left “orphans” (14:18). He would send in His place the Holy Spirit Who would teach them all things and bring to their remembrance those things that Jesus had taught them (14:26). The term translated “Helper” occurs three times in the context (14:26; 15:26; 16:7). Without question, Jesus was referring to the power and directional assistance that the apostles would receive from the Holy Spirit beginning on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:8; 2:4). A simple reading of the three chapters makes this conclusion inescapable.

Since Muslims do not believe in the notion of Trinity (God in three persons—Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14), they reject the reality of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is referred to in the Quran, it is speaking of the angel Gabriel (Surah 2:87,253; 16:102; see Pickthall, n.d., p. 40, note 3). But using their own reasoning, the “Helper” cannot refer to Muhammad since the context specifically identifies the “Helper” as the “Holy Spirit:” “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (14:26). If the Quran is correct, and the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, then John 14:26 teaches that the Helper is Gabriel—not Muhammad! No, John 16:7 does not refer to Muhammad.

A fourth passage brought forward in an effort to show biblical support for Muhammad’s claim to be a prophet of God is John 1:19-21—“Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ‘Who are you?’ He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, ‘I am not the Christ.’ And they asked him, ‘What then? Are you Elijah?’ He said, ‘I am not.’ ‘Are you the Prophet?’ And he answered, ‘No.’ ” Muslims claim that the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies. The first was the coming of Christ. The second was the coming of Elijah. The third was the coming of the Prophet. Muslims point out that the three questions that were posed to John the baptizer in this passage show this expectation to be true. They further maintain that since the Jews distinguished between the Christ and the Prophet, Jesus Christ was not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:15,18.

Muslims certainly are correct in their observation that the Jews of Jesus’ day thought that the Christ and the Prophet were two separate personages. But the meaning and proper application of the Bible does not rest on the perceptions and misconceptions of mere humans. The Bible records the opinions and viewpoints of a wide range of individuals throughout human history—including Satan himself (Matthew 4:3,6,9)—even though their opinions and viewpoints were incorrect. The Bible does not authenticate such opinions simply by reporting them. The Jews were confused.

The real question is, does the Bible indicate whether the Christ and the Prophet were/are to be understood as the same person? As already noted, the apostle Peter certainly thought so (Acts 3:12ff.). So did the great evangelist and Christian martyr, Stephen. Standing before the highest-ranking body of the Jewish religion, the Sanhedrin, and in the presence of the highest-ranking religious figure in Judaism, the high priest, Stephen recalled the words of Moses from Deuteronomy (Acts 7:37), and then forthrightly declared Jesus to be the Just One Whom they had betrayed and murdered (vs. 52). The “Just One” is precisely the same person that Peter identified as the fulfillment of the Deuteronomy passage, i.e., Jesus Christ. Likewise, Paul referred to Jesus (not Muhammad) as the “Just One” (Acts 22:14). An objective appraisal of the biblical data yields the unmistakable conclusion that the Bible identifies the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18 as Jesus Christ—not Muhammad. Jesus is both the Christ and the Prophet.

All four of these verses may be understood with a little study and consideration of context. Those who would attempt to use these verses to apply to Muhammad demonstrate that they have a very superficial, cursory understanding of the Bible. The truth is available for anyone who cares to “check it out.” But searching for the truth requires effort. It requires adequate motivation. Yet it can be done. As Jesus said, “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32).




posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 05:05 AM
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Methods Muslims use to attack Christianity

When dealing with Muslims it is wise to understand some of the approaches used by them to discredit Christianity. Much could be written on each of the following subjects with numerous examples. But, instead, I will simply expound on the areas common among Muslim approaches and point out what to watch for.

No. 1 Attack the validity of the Bible

This is expected. If the Muslim can undermine the strength and integrity of God's word, then it would be much easier for him to win arguments, confound the Christian, and make converts of those who don't know the truth and power of the Bible. This is what the devil did in the Garden of Eden. Satan said, "You truly will not die," (Gen. 3:4). I am not calling Muslims satanic. I am simply pointing out that that is how deception begins, by bringing doubt upon God's word, and that this is exactly what Muslims do. They try and get people to doubt the Bible and then tell you how great Islam is. Various methods are used here to accomplish this:

Stating that the Bible has numerous contradictions
Of course, I cannot go through all the alleged Bible contradictions here. But my observation has been that the majority of "biblical contradictions" raised by Muslims are nothing more than examples of their lack of understanding of biblical theology and context. Always read the context of verses. Don't let a Muslim simply state that there are contradictions and leave it at that. Ask him to give you one. If you cannot answer it, do research and get back to him. Sure, there are some tough areas of scripture, but there are no contradictions in God's word.1
Criticizing the lack of original manuscripts
The point here is that because we do not have the original manuscripts of the Bible, we cannot really know what the originals said and, therefore, the Bible could have been corrupted. They then compare the Bible to the Koran and state that the Koran is the guaranteed, preserved, direct word of Allah given by the angel Gabriel to Muhammad. Of course, what they fail to mention is
The Bible documents are well attested as being reliable and accurate. (See the book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.)
Regarding the Koran, Muhammad couldn't read or write, so he recited the Koran to people who then wrote it down. There is no evidence at all that the Koran was written down in its entirety in Muhammad's lifetime and compiled as a unit. So how could he have verified its truth?
Shortly after Muhammad's death, the Muslim Uthman ordered all sets of the Koran manuscripts to be destroyed except the codex of Zaid. Why? Is it because Zaid's copy was better? If so, how do we know? Did differences in the copies arise so quickly that discrepancies were evident and Uthman recognized the need for a standardized copy lest Islam suffer division? It raises doubt on the Koran's supposed incorruptibility.
Muslims claim that Allah said the Koran would be preserved. But, the mere claim is not enough. It is using the Koran to substantiate the Koran which is circular reasoning.
Claiming that the Bible is false because it contradicts the Koran.
This is simply begging the question. That means that one assumes the validity of the thing that he is trying to prove. The Muslim assumes the validity of the Koran and because it contradicts the Bible, therefore the Bible is wrong. Well, the Christian can just as easily state that the Koran is wrong because it contradicts the Bible. But the Muslims would not accept that. Therefore, why should we accept their argument?
No. 2 Attempt to set Paul against Jesus

Muslims often make the claim that Paul never met Jesus and was not a disciple or apostle of Jesus. Of course, this is not true. Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus in Acts 9, after Jesus' resurrection. Jesus spoke to him and commissioned him. So, Paul met Jesus. Also, Peter, who was a disciple of Jesus, authenticated Paul's writings by calling them scripture in 2 Pet. 3:15-16. If they are inspired, then they cannot contradict Jesus' words.
In addition, many Muslims claim that Jesus never claimed to be God and that Paul is the one who wrote that Jesus was God. First of all, if they admit that Paul wrote that Jesus was God, then remind them of 2 Pet. 3:15-16 where Peter calls Paul's writings Scripture. Nevertheless, they sometimes assert that Paul hijacked Christianity and took it over and made Jesus into something He was not. This claim is false.
Perhaps the primary area where Muslims think Paul and Jesus contradict is in the area of who Jesus is. Paul states that Jesus is God in flesh: Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form." Muslims assert that no where in the Gospels did Jesus claim to be God. Therefore, they claim, Paul's words are not true and the Bible is not trustworthy.
This attack by Muslims is an attack based out of opinion. Jesus did claim to be God In John 8:56-59, it says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple."2 Why did the Pharisees want to kill Jesus? They explain their reason in John 10:33 when they say, "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God," (KJV). Whether or not the Muslim will accept this, let alone agree that this is correct, matters little because his presupposition will not allow him to accept, no matter what. Nevertheless, the text clearly states that the Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming to be God. Also, consider John 5:18 where the Apostle John says, "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God," (KJV). In this verse Jesus healed on the Sabbath and the Pharisees thought He was breaking the Sabbath law. John the Apostle also states that when Jesus claimed that God was His Father, that it was "making himself equal with God." The Muslim will always find a way to argue out of these texts. But, two facts remain. First, Jesus claimed to be God. Second, the Pharisees denied that Jesus was God and the Muslims agree with them.
There are other areas that the Muslims will say are where Jesus and Paul do not agree, but when they bring it up, always ask for an example. Each time I've done this, I've discovered that the Muslim did not have a sufficient understanding of what the text is saying. Remember, always read the context.


No. 3 Misrepresentation of Christian doctrine

Sadly, this is a very common error of the Muslims. The single greatest instance of this is in the doctrine of the Trinity. Muslims so often attack a false understanding of the Trinity by stating that it is three gods. That is not the correct Christian definition of the Trinity doctrine. Christianity does not teach there are three gods. It never has and it never will. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is only one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarianism is monotheistic. If a Muslim continues to proclaim that the Trinity is three gods, then I simply stop discussing the issue with him because he is not willing to accept what the definition is and it isn't possible to have a meaningful dialogue.
Another Christian doctrine they fail to understand is the Hypostatic Union. This is the teaching that Jesus is one person with two natures. He is both God and man as is declared in Col. 2:9, "For in Him [Jesus] dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Because Jesus was also a man, we have verses such as John 14:28 where Jesus says "the Father is greater than I." Muslims will say that if Jesus is God, how could He be greater than Himself? Of course, they fail to understand the Trinity (three persons) and they fail to understand that Jesus, as a man (Phil. 2:5-8), cooperated with the limitations of being a man and was in a lower position than the Father (Heb. 2:9) for a while.
Sometimes Muslims refuse to accept Christian explanations for things because it doesn't fit their agenda nor their preconceived ideas of what they think Christianity is. Oddly enough, Christians often contribute to this problem by offering inadequate and sometimes erring explanations of Christian doctrine. Thus, many Muslims are led into error regarding what Christianity really teaches. Christians need to know their doctrine, and Muslims need to understand the proper explanations for those doctrines.


No. 4 Misinterpreting various Scripture passages

A very good example of misrepresentation of biblical passages can be found in a dialogue I had with a Muslim regarding John 1:1, 14. These verses say, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Verse 14 says "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." The Muslim I was speaking to reasoned thus:

If the word is God then we can insert the word "god" into the verse each time it says "word." Therefore, we would have it say 'In the beginning was the God and the God was with God and God was God.' As you can see, this makes no sense. Therefore, when you go to verse 14 where it says the word became flesh, it cannot mean that God became flesh, because John 1:1 makes no sense."

As you can see, this kind of logic is very bad. First of all, John 1:1 does not say what he said it does. It does not speak in contradictory terms the way he tried to make it sound. Instead, it uses both the word "word" and the word "god" in the sentence. I told him that he needed to go with what the text does say and not with what it does not say. In other words, he reconstructed it in such a way as to purposely not make sense and then he attacked that.
Another verse, or verses, that they misinterpret is when Jesus says that He is the Son of God. To the Muslim, this means that God literally had a wife and produced a literal son. Of course, this is not what is meant by the biblical account. Sonship is in relation to the Fatherhood of God in a spiritual and metaphoric sense. After all, Jesus says that God is spirit (John 4;24). Of course, God would not have a body of flesh and bones with which to procreate children. What the Muslims are guilty of doing is imposing Islamic understandings upon biblical texts and then complaining about the biblical texts in light of how they interpret them. This is not how one should go about "refuting the opposition." Rather, the Muslim should seek to understand the biblical/cultural context and deal with the issue from that perspective not a fabricated one as this example shows.


No. 5 Failing to differentiate between Protestant and Catholic doctrines

Sadly, Christianity is not in complete unity in all things which is why we have denominations. I am dismayed at the fragmentation within Christianity and think it is a poor witness to the world. But, the fact is that differences of opinions among Christians do occur. In fact, we are allowed to have differences of opinion according to God's word found in Rom. 14: 1-13. True Christians are all united in the essentials of the faith and are often divided on the non-essentials. This does not mean we are not all Christians, but that we have differences of opinions on some things.
However, in the 1500s, there was a major split in the Catholic church. It was called the Reformation. As a Protestant, I believe the Reformation was necessary because the Catholic church had adopted some dangerous and erroneous doctrines that extend far beyond mere differences of opinion; namely, prayer to Mary, purgatory, indulgences, etc.
Muslims often fail to differentiate between Catholicism and Protestantism in their arguments. I've heard and read where Muslims attack, for example, the Catholic teaching of the Eucharist where the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper are claimed by the Catholics to actually become the body and blood of Christ during the communion service. Of course, we Protestants strongly disagree with this. But this disagreement is rarely, if ever, brought up when attacking Christian doctrine. So, when Muslims say "Christians believe ...", be careful that they do not make too broad a generalization as they continue their attack.


No. 6 Claim their logic is correct and Christian logic is incorrect

Many Muslims have told me that what I am saying about God, Salvation, the Bible, etc., isn't logical. Now, perhaps some things I say are not logical. But, I've not heard any convincing arguments yet demonstrating what is and is not logical regarding Christian doctrine. Usually, the Muslim will simply say that Jesus having two natures is not logical or that the Trinity being three persons doesn't make sense. But saying so doesn't make it so. There is nothing illogical about a part of God being able to become a person and add human nature to Himself. It may not be the easiest thing in the world to understand, but it is not illogical. Neither does saying that the Trinity is three persons is illogical make it so. Surely anyone would agree that when we encounter God and His self revelation there will be things that are difficult to understand. The Trinity certainly falls under that category. But, the Trinity doctrine is not against logic. It would be illogical to say that one God is three gods, or that one person is three persons. But that is not what Christianity teaches.
I've found that when dialoguing with Muslims and when reading their material against Christianity, that their claim to know real logic is really an extension of their Muslim thought and not a mastery of logic at all.

No. 7 Switching topics when challenged

Sometimes when discussing subjects that Muslims find difficult to answer, they will quickly change the subject. Very often this change involves attacking the Bible. Other times they will testify that they know Islam is true or they will simply say that you do not known what you are talking about. But when they change the subject you must be patient. Lovingly bring them back to the subject at hand. I have had to do this many times when discussing Islam with Muslims.
This is a small but very important point. Too many Christians fall into the trap of allowing themselves to be diverted from the subject at hand. Do not let a Muslim simply ignore a question and start a new subject when it gets tough. Likewise, Christians should not simply change the subject when it gets difficult for them either. Instead, if you do not know the answer to a question, simply admit it. Go to some research and then get back with them.
Always remember to be gracious. You will not win the Muslim to the Lord with cruelty and rudeness. And remember that we are in the spiritual battle. Love and truth in the name of Jesus is more powerful than any perfect answer.

When dialoguing with Muslims, please remember to be respectful and patient. But, check everything they say and listen to them. They do not have the market cornered on truth, even though they think they do.



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 05:10 AM
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Quote from www.opinionet.com...

THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians. (See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.) This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.


----------

There are the FACTS. I cannot even believe in Jesus as Lord in any muslim country, yet the false islamic religion has mosques all over Western Nations where Muslims are NOT persecuted. Then you tell me Islam is spreading?? Convienent fact there that Christianity cannot spread in Islamic nations...Muslims kill Christians!!! And whats the big surprise anyway that Islam is spreading?? What does that mean its the TRUTH??? LOL what about the coming Apostacy that is already at the door..?? People will turn away from the TRUTH !! Its happening now!

This is how it goes when preaching to Muslims. You state your beliefs, they then attack your source the bible, but convienently use it to back up that Jesus said Mohammed would come. If your in a western nation maybe they wont attack you, if in an Islamic state they will either imprison you or kill you or kick you out of the country. Pity that you have to resort to violence because your FALSE relgion CANNOT stand in the light of the "way the TRUTH and the LIFE" Jesus Christ!!



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 05:26 AM
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I didn't bother reading long pastes from anti-Islamic sites as I'm sure you didn't bother either. To your question:


Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Hmmm first you say Mohammed is proven by the bible and that Jesus mentioned his coming. THEN you say I cannot back up ANYTHING I believe because my Bible is corrupt?? So how can you back up what you say about Mohammed from the Bible???

Islam isn't using the Bible to back-up anything, I just made the observation:-

Did not say proven anything, just meant it can be seen as hinted, just as you somehow see the Trinity is hinted in the Bible. Both ways can be interpreted because the Bible is corrupted. This is why nothing is believed as solid proof in the Bible but that vague hints of truth may be there.

You can't back anything up because the Bible is contradictory in what it says about Jesus; it is corrupted by man. Islam is not backing anything up with the Bible, just that the Bible happens to agree in some ways yet apparently (to you) differ in others. One verse says God is alone, others seem to say (to you) that Jesus is God, which is it? You need another source, the Qur'an is that for Muslims.



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 08:48 AM
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So you not reading my long posts but I must read yours???

Whats the point then?? I think you get to a point where you are no longer willing to listen and just shut down..is that right??? And these are not AntiIslam sites..I researched Islamic sites to find out more, I suggest you do the same with Christian sites because Muslims seem to take the Bible completely OUT OF CONTEXT.The trinity is not "hinted" in the bible.

Does it not say in the bible go and baptise in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit? Does it not say in the Bible that there are 3 that bare witness on earth that is blood, water and spirit and there are 3 that bare witness in heaven that is the FATHER the SON and the SPIRIT and THESE THREE ARE ONE! I dont see no "hint" there.

And what I posted was the truth. Firstly it mentioned perfectly exactly how you attack Christianity..which is exactly what you did...rebuking the Bible and saying it is corrupted.Secondly the persecution of Christians. Yes Western nations have invaded foerign Islamic states and many innocent people have died.Is it law though in Western States to OUTLAW or HARM people who do not follow your faith?? This is only found in ISLAMIC STATES.
It is like a quasi dictatorship and a relgious state. There is no freedom there.

[edit on 25-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 09:31 AM
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Shortly after Muhammad's death, the Muslim Uthman ordered all sets of the Koran manuscripts to be destroyed except the codex of Zaid. Why? Is it because Zaid's copy was better? If so, how do we know?


When Mohammad received first words of Qur'an, he went home and told his wife about it. She believed him and converted to Islam. The third follower shortly after his wife was Zaid. he was a slave, Mohammad freed him ( slavery was not God's will ), Zaid followed Muhammad from the VERY FIRST DAY till the last. It is logical to assume that his version of Qur'an IS indeed the most corect one, because it doesnt contain a single "hear-say", he was there from the very first day. Muslim tradition from day one was to memorize Qur'an, every word of it, thats what Zaid did.
To prevent various versions of Qur'an, Zaid's version was accepted as the correct one and others were destroyed. Oh and he wasnt the only one who knew the whole Qur'an, many followers did the same, they memorised it, so we can be sure that the Qur'an we have today is pretty much the same book as it was in Mohammad's time. That of course goes for the arabic version, translations are a different story.


Now to your post about whether Mohammad is mentioned in Bible or not: your post clearly states just how differently religious books can be interpreted. There is only one version of a verse, sentence, chapter, but it has numerous interpretations, each equaly "logical". Thats how it is with all predictions, they are all vague, you see what you want to see there.
If God wants to send more prophets, he is an all-powerful being, he can do that, and he doesn't have to announce it in very vague prophecies.

Which brings me to something else now, I hope you realise how pointless it is to question validity of one religious book by quoting another one who's validity is based only on belief. That is utterly pointless, so I won't even try to despute the validity of the Bible with Qur'an verses ( that is not my goal anyway ).

Religion is a BELIEF in God, not a deffinite proof of God. Therefore you cannot with certainty say that, generaly, one belief system is correct and the other ones are wrong. It can only be your personal truth, your personal path to God.
I have no problem with other religions. I am Muslim and I see Qur'an as one of many paths to God.

From what I could read in your posts, you don't seem to know much about the basics of islamic belief system. First, muslims do not worship Muhammad, that is absolutely forbiden. You cannot compare islam with christianity in term of comparing jesus with mohammad. Muslims never claimed that Mohammad was sinless, immortal or whatever. He was a mortal human, a salesman who, at the age of 40, received God's word. He lived, gor married, had kids, fought wars and died. End of story.
Qur'an is NOT a testimony of Mohammads life, like Bible is of Jesus, no, no, no. Qur'an is a testimony of monotheistic faith which started with Adam and Eve. The most narated prophets in Qur'an are Moses and Abraham. Muhammad is only mentioned as a messenger, a bringer of God's word, there is very little mention about his life.



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 01:05 PM
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Quote:

I have no problem with other religions. I am Muslim and I see Qur'an as one of many paths to God.


Many paths to God?? But there is only ONE true GOD and only ONE PATH?? If there are MANY PATHS TO GOD then why dont Islamic nations allow other Gods to be preached??? Im sorry but that statement is in direct contradiction to the very LAW of Islamic states...AND THE WORDS OF THE KORAN....which give licence to the murder of the infidal if they do not submit. If I am wrong prove me wrong and explain the verses of the Koran which speak of murdering the infidal. Then quote from the Holy Bible the verse where it says to murder those who do not believe in Jesus??? Or make war with your enemy?? Show me those words please.

If God is ONE and he is the ONLY GOD then his way is the only way then right?? Why do you say many paths when Islam itself teaches that the world will submit to it before Judgement Day?? Is that not what Islam teaches or am I following the wrong "interpretation" ?

Jesus said (and i have posted this verse many times before) I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.So what is Jesus saying?? Is he saying there are other PATHS or WAYS??? What is he saying and how do YOU understand that verse?? Or are you going to deny that the very written word itself is FALSE and CORRUPT?? When other Muslims take what Jesus said of the Spirit of Truth and apply it to Mohammed??

I did not say that Mohammed is worshipped by the Muslims but is he not considered the ONLY TRUE AND FINAL PROPHET OF ALLAH/GOD?? Then you must TEST HIM by his FRUITS. What are his fruits from his life??? What is the FRUIT OF HIS MESSAGE?? The earlier comparison is made between Jesus and Mohammed to show the FRUIT and the result and belief that each spread. Name the Apostle that murdered for Jesus please. No they died for what they believed in they DID NOT KILL for what they believed in. For it is written in the bible that the sheep (people,children) of God are prepared for the SLAUGHTER all day long on this earth, they are persecuted and killed.For they stand for the TRUTH and wait for God to Avenge them and for a new Heaven and Earth of righteousness.

There are so many points to debate within Islam. Does not the Holy Word of God say that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God?? Therefore no flesh or human body enters into Heaven?? Yet Islam teaches a reward of wine and sex in heaven??? Many virgins for a man who does Allahs will??
But Christ the Lord Jesus taught that you must be born of his spirit to enter into heaven and that the body will be made into an incorruptable body for ever.


[edit on 25-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 01:17 PM
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you did a good job of pulling stats but you fail to understand and ask yourself one question why the silence and why dont they hand over the extremist. They know who they are.

The silence from the islamic country , clerics and people tell the truth about there faith and religon.

ONE DAY SOON YOU WILL HAVE TO STATE YOUR FAITH IN ISLAM OR BE BE_HEADED.



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 01:51 PM
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Here is an artical about the peace of islam

Saudi Arabia – Beheading Capital of the World




June 25, 2004
By Mike Evans
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

The execution-style murder of Paul Johnson has been condemned by the Organization of the Islamic Conference. The OIC chief, Abd al-Wahid Bilqaziz, labeled Mr. Johnson's death as a "barbaric act," and went on to reassure the world in general and the American public in particular that "Islam recommends the protection of foreigners Ö and prohibits the killing of innocent people." How magnanimous of Mr. Bilqaziz!

Apparently in an attempt to assuage world outrage, Saudi security launched a search for the body of the beheaded American. Why has that outrage not extended to the hundreds, perhaps thousands, who have been beheaded and tossed into unmarked graves over the past 30 years?

According to Amnesty International, more than half of those beheaded between 1990 and 1999 were foreign nationals, and some were Christian missionaries. Why has the Saudi government not returned those bodies to their loved ones for proper burial?

In Saudi Arabia, heads roll for sodomy, armed robbery, murder, and for being a Christian. Some Christians were beheaded after having been falsely accused of drugs or other crimes reportedly as benign as leading a Bible study or offering prayers. Saudis that convert to Christianity, or "desert Islam," are subject to the death penalty, as well.

Those condemned to death are taken to a public square blindfolded after midday prayers, hands tied behind their backs and forced to kneel facing Mecca. The police clear the square of all traffic and lay a blue plastic sheet 16-feet square on the ground. The executioner swings the sword two or three times before jabbing the poor soul in the back to force him to raise his head. More than 100 people have been beheaded in Saudi since 9-11, and the vast majority were not members of al-Qaida!

We are told that the militants and extremists who committed the horrendous murder of Paul Johnson have been killed. Why are murderers, who have no regard for the sanctity of human life, called "militants"? Why not label them exactly as what they are: terrorists? And, if these so-called militants and extremists are going to be hunted down and killed or arrested, what awaits the entire House of Saud?

I, too, am outraged, not only by the beheading of Paul Johnson, but by the Saudi PR-machine that has hypocritically expressed its disgust over this barbarism. It is, indeed, the theater of the absurd and a festival of hypocrisy.

In 1991 during the Persian Gulf War, I preached the gospel in the center of Dhahran. U.S. military police grabbed me and screamed, "Are you nuts? They will cut your head off, you fool!" Days later, I shared Christ with Gen. Khalid. He looked at me and asked, "Are you trying to convert me? We cut off heads for that."

Any thinking person knows that the House of Saud is the principal financier of the terrorists on whom President Bush has declared war. They export more than oil. About 25 percent of all those in the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, are Saudi nationals. No country in the world has spent more to export bigotry and hatred than Saudi Arabia.

Islam is portrayed as a religion of tolerance. How ignorant can we be? Women cannot drive cars in Saudi Arabia, girls are still circumcised, political parties and trade unions are outlawed, the church and state are one in Saudi Arabia. Do not hold your breath while searching for a Christian church or Jewish synagogue in that country; you will suffocate. Television is censored to the degree that if Mickey Mouse gives Minnie Mouse a peck on the cheek, poor Mickey will be banished from the kingdom!

Several years ago, I interviewed a U.S. Aramco employee. He told me he was tortured for having a video of "The Love Boat" in his suitcase. He was accused of possessing pornography. While in jail, he feared he might be beheaded.

The Holy Grail of understanding is that there is nothing tolerant about Saudi Arabia. Shariah (Islamic law) shows no tolerance. No, it is no coincidence that 15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked America on 9-11 were Saudi Arabian. All were Wahhabists, as is the Taliban, and the majority of the population of Saudi. If democracy were to come to tolerant Saudi Arabia, Osama bin Laden would be elected in a landslide.

We have been assured that Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9-11; on the other hand, we know with certainty that Saudi nationals were. For the House of Saud to try to distance itself from Islamic fundamentalism would be tantamount to Osama trying to distance himself from terrorism.

The same can be said of al-Qaida. The general Muslim population thinks the evil empire of communism was not defeated by Ronald Reagan and the crusaders, but rather, it was Osama bin Laden and Islam that caused the Soviet house of cards to crumble in Afghanistan. They also believe there is just one "evil empire" in the world, and that Iraq will be to America what Afghanistan was to the Soviets.

SPECIAL ONE-DAY OFFER: Receive Mike Evans' best-selling book on the role of the U.S., Israel and Iraq in biblical prophecy, "Beyond Iraq: The Next Move," PLUS get the acclaimed and inspiring guide to the November election, "We Will Pray for Election Day" – both FREE, when you subscribe to WND's popular Whistleblower magazine before 10 p.m. Pacific tonight!

Michael D. Evans is the author of "Beyond Iraq: The Next Move," an Amazon No. 2 and a New York Times best-seller, and founder of America’s largest Christian coalition praying for the peace of Jerusalem, Jerusalem Prayer Team.org. Evans' "The American Prophecies" will be released by Time Warner in early August.

www.worldnetdaily.com...



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 04:56 PM
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Many paths to God?? But there is only ONE true GOD and only ONE PATH?? If there are MANY PATHS TO GOD then why dont Islamic nations allow other Gods to be preached??? Im sorry but that statement is in direct contradiction to the very LAW of Islamic states...AND THE WORDS OF THE KORAN


There is ONE God and there are MANY paths to that God.
I quote:

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

That also debunks the common misconception that muslims believe Mohammad was the only prophet. HE WAS NOT, NO MUSLIM ON THIS EARTH EVER CLAIMED THAT MOHAMMAD WAS THE ONLY PROPHET, Qur'an is full of stories about other prophets, about Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Noah etc, etc.

Another quote:

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion

Why some Muslims ignore these verses? Beats me. Probably because of the same reason Christians justified butchering of millions with the peaceful word of Jesus through the centuries: people are STUPID... well, most are.




I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME


Muslims believe in Jesus. That solves the problem then.




Yet Islam teaches a reward of wine and sex in heaven??? Many virgins for a man who does Allahs will??


Nope. Again, another misconception. The word used to describe beings who live in Heaven has no gender and refers to spiritual light. It is very difficult to debunk such a strong urban legend like the sex in heaven thing. There are a LOT of Falwell's disciples running around misquoting the Qur'an.
God says many times in Qur'an that he uses metaphors to describe things. Mohammad and his followers lived in desert, no water, hence their Heaven would be rivers flowing everywhere, fruits and drinks, them sitting in a cool shade, etc, etc.

I don't have much time now, to adress the rest of your post, but I will post more tomorow.

Oh one more thing, a few verses about fighting a war. Muslims are peaceful but not stupid, they will fight back if anyone attacks just like the rest of humanity too.

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Murder:

[4:93] Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.

[5:32] anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 06:13 PM
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1 billion and growing? Sounds like MacDonald's.

I don't guess they serve Happy Meals.

www.onealclan.com



posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 10:46 PM
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This is in answer to Mithras questions. I didn't quote them, I found 6 questions so I'll answer them one by one.

question one- What is sin? Refusing to adhere to the standards rules God has set and living independent of Him. God made the universe, so He has the right to set the rules. Remember He is 100% holy and the rules He has set are meant to keep us from harm, and to enhance our life.

Your second question talked about God pouring His wrath upon Himself when Christ was Crucified. That's right. When a lamb was sacrificed for a persons sin, it was the person who sinned and the lamb took the death for it, and the lamb was sinless. Remember this is a foreshadowing of Jesus who was to come. My sin was done by me. I can't pay for my own sin. You have to be sinless to pay for sin. The only one who is sinless is God. That's why He left heaven and came here for me and for anyone. He is sinless so only He could make complete atonement for sin under God's way of atoning for sin. Plus think about this. This is surely a guess on my part, but I myself have committed thousands of sins. Now the other day I heard someone say that since the creation there have been about 40 billion people who have lived on the earth. Let's say each person committed 1000 sins each in their lifetime. When the sin of the world was placed on Christ, that means 1000 sins x 40 billion people equals 40 trillion sins. Christ Knew no sin but became sin for us. On the cross 40 trillion sins were placed on Jesus. Christ felt each sin as if He had committed them. Now that I'm saved and see how wrong sin is, sometimes a sin I have done can make me feel bad. Can you imagine 40 trillion sins placed on you. Jesus felt each of the 40 trillion sins as if He had done each one. Another reason it was only God(Jesus) who could atone for our sin, is because He is the only being in the universe who could have all of the mental stress of 40 trillion sins placed on Him and then take God's wrath to atonement for it.

question 3 A good man was punished but that doesn't mean we can sin all we want. If you are truly born again, and I want to emphasize truly born again. You don't want to sin anymore. Do I still sin, yes, do I want to, no. But we still live in a fallen world and are still in our flesh which can sin. I don't want to hurt Jesus anymore than I already have.

If someone claims to be a christian but there life and lifestyle of sin has not changed, they have not been born again, its that simple. And this person is not pulling a fast one on God. God knows EVERYTHING. He knows when someone has been saved. Those who are unsaved still are holding onto their own sin and since they are, they will still be held accountable for the punishment of those sins. You have until the moment of your death to give them to Christ for real. After judgement you have to pay the price for them yourself, which is eternal everlasting seperation from God.

Question 4 God's laws are written in the Bible. They are written their to show us we can't keep them and that we are sinful.

Question 5 The mormon and catholic Bibles have more books in them, I don't know if their are other ones also. The mormon and catholic denominations do not teach the complete truth of Jesus Christ. They reguire you to earn your salvation. A human being can't earn it, it is a free gift from God through Christ.

Question 6 The sacrifice system of the old testament works like todays salvation. God knows EVERYTHING. Someone back then who brought a lamb to sacrifice, but in his heart didn't mean it, is still carrying his own sin. God knows every thought and motive we have. You cannot trick God.



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 08:07 AM
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But again the main thing is not that Islam recognises Jesus and a prophet but it goes back to what Jesus himself said "Who do YOU think I am??"

The modern day Jews are awaiting their Messiah, and so are the Muslims awaiting the Madhi.The Jews claim Jesus was NOT son of God and was not messiah even though they have the concept written of in their faith. So to say you recognise Jesus but then deny who he was you are not really recognising him are you?? If I say I recognise Mohammed but I dont believe he was Gods only prophet or a prophet of God then I am denying who he himself said he was. Often Muslims and Jews who discredit Jesus as Messiah state that Jesus never said he was the Messiah, but in fact if you read the NT you will see it is implied throughout and this claim was supported by the spread of the Gospel.

Finally to continue arguing is to no avail, seeings as once an alternative view is giving it is up to you to either reject or believe it. If I was a Muslim I would read testimonies of ex Jewish and Islamic people who have become Christians to see what it is all really about.

The real point to argue is the fruit and whats happening in Islamic states. This cannot be denied by Muslims. You cannot teach any other faith in an Islamic state, and could be murdered for not following Islam. Actually if a Muslim in an Islamic state rejects Islam and follows Jesus Christ they will be killed! Doesnt that alone say something about Islam?? If you turn away from Christianity and leave a church they dont kill you! Neither did they when the Gospel was spread, and neither did Jesus harm anyone who did not believe his message.

Many paths to God is not what Jesus taught. He said that broad is the way to hell and there are many that follow it, and narrow is the way to life and there are few that find it.

Once receiving Jesus as your Saviour you are forgiven of all your sins. This does not mean you will never sin again, you may make mistakes Jesus himself said that it is impossible that offences will not come.And you are to forgive your brother many times in the day as God forgives you for your sins. But salvation is a work that is started and finished by God and you run a race as Paul said, who also said that the flesh and the spirit are constantly at war with each other. God is not mocked, what you sow you reap, if you sow to the spirit you reap spiritual rewards and if you sow to the flesh you reap the wages of sin which is death. So for an example if a man becomes saved follows the Lord but slips later in his life and sins and REPENTS his soul is forgiven of the sin he commited, but if that sin caused him to get sick or suffer ..then he will have to endure that suffering as the result of his sin. HOWEVER that said, those who are saved have the power of God within them, and greater is Jesus that is in them than he that is in the world. It says in the bible that those who continue to sin are of the devil, but it also says that for as many as those who Jesus takes and loves he chasens them so you must repent. The first is obvious but the second says that Jesus chasens those he loves, meaning he punishes those as God would a son for doing wrong, but encourages them to be ZEALOUS and REPENT. Jesus came into the world to defeat the devil and his works by defeating sin. The main thing is GRACE, and that from the Lord. It is his grace that is the means of salvation and that through faith.

You cannot compare Islam to Christianity as you do in your next post, because in Islam your good works save you from hell, but there is no salvation from your very nature!!! That is the CORE of Christian teaching, your nature changes..God moves into your heart giving you the power to overcome...you become a NEW CREATION free from the SIN OF ADAM, because you have DIED with Christ and now LIVE IN HIM. THis does not happen in Islam. God does not do a work in you to change your nature because you do not believe in original sin from the first man Adam. So there is no salvation message because you dont need salvation, you only need to do the good you can in your life and go to heaven. Yet how can that which is born corrupt and evil inherit eternal life?? Christianity is about leaving your life behind, becoming born again, repenting from your sin and receiveing a new life through Jesus. Your old life from your birth DIES when you go to the cross. You then live in JESUS. But in Islam you keep your own life from birth to death doing good works for salvation.

[edit on 26-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

[edit on 26-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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Thanks for giving your own answers,


Originally posted by dlbrandt
question one- What is sin? Refusing to adhere to the standards rules God has set and living independent of Him. God made the universe, so He has the right to set the rules. Remember He is 100% holy and the rules He has set are meant to keep us from harm, and to enhance our life.

Question 4 God's laws are written in the Bible. They are written their to show us we can't keep them and that we are sinful.

Okay, that's the same definition as in Islam - disobedience is a sin, and the rules are also to enhance life and society. Islam provides a strict set of rules to follow, almost all from the Qur'an.

I still don't know which laws you mean, can you give a reference? I would like to know these laws otherwise I won't know what a sin is. If I don't know what a sin is I cannot regret one, also I will act by my own fears since I won't know right from wrong.

So the idea is that (after you "accept" Christ) you still accept you will inevitably and knowingly sin and when you do you just pass your sin onto Christ. You didn't want to sin, but you knowingly did (again, where's it written exactly what's a sin). I don't think that's a very strong deterrant against sin, you won't have a drive to stop - it's like you're on the skill-less (inherently sinful) team in a sport, you know you haven't got a chance (to do obey) so don't worry about (sinning) letting the other team thrash you because it's your team's fault; just have faith in the Holy Spirit making you better. My view: only you can make yourself better.



Your second question talked about God pouring His wrath upon Himself when Christ was Crucified. ..... My sin was done by me. I can't pay for my own sin. You have to be sinless to pay for sin. The only one who is sinless is God. That's why He left heaven and came here for me and for anyone. He is sinless so only He could make complete atonement for sin under God's way of atoning for sin. ... When the sin of the world was placed on Christ, that means 1000 sins x 40 billion people equals 40 trillion sins. Christ Knew no sin but became sin for us.... Now that I'm saved and see how wrong sin is, sometimes a sin I have done can make me feel bad. Can you imagine 40 trillion sins placed on you.

You said "My sin was done by me. I can't pay for my own sin. You have to be sinless to pay for sin. " I don't understand why you can't pay for your own sin? Pay as in punished by God. Is it because your payment (by action) is nothing for God? In that case why is your sin (by action) something to God? In Islam a good deed doesn't necessarily cancel a sin, but God may forgive especially if there's much good and regret.



If someone claims to be a christian but there life and lifestyle of sin has not changed, they have not been born again, its that simple. And this person is not pulling a fast one on God. God knows EVERYTHING. He knows when someone has been saved. Those who are unsaved still are holding onto their own sin and since they are, they will still be held accountable for the punishment of those sins. You have until the moment of your death to give them to Christ for real. After judgement you have to pay the price for them yourself, which is eternal everlasting seperation from God.

question 3 A good man was punished but that doesn't mean we can sin all we want. If you are truly born again, and I want to emphasize truly born again. You don't want to sin anymore. Do I still sin, yes, do I want to, no. But we still live in a fallen world and are still in our flesh which can sin. I don't want to hurt Jesus anymore than I already have.

So you're just saying that only Christians who follow God's rules go to Heaven, because you just said that if their lifestyle (actions) are still sinful they aren't Christians - so it is a "works-based" religion too.

If they regret their sins (but they need to know what a sin is to regret it so I want to know exactly where it's written in the Bible) then they are still acceptable by God, right? What if you don't regret every single sin, surely God has to pass a judgement on how much regret it takes to say whether you are in fact a Christian by heart?

By the way, there is a belief in Islam that when you accept it all the past sins are washed away, yet all the good deeds passed over. But there's no belief that a Holy Ghost is literally making you better, but simply your own love and fear in God (in following His law) will help you in life and Judgement.



Question 6 The sacrifice system of the old testament works like todays salvation. God knows EVERYTHING. Someone back then who brought a lamb to sacrifice, but in his heart didn't mean it, is still carrying his own sin. God knows every thought and motive we have. You cannot trick God.

Okay, so again the result is the innocent gets punished. I understand, just feel sorry that the lamb has to suffer for people's belief only.

I just want to point somethings out:
Accepting Islam is symbolically similiar to accepting Christ as a Christian in that in both cases your past sins are forgotten. Christians believe they are given a Holy Ghost (but no rules, 10 commandments are incredibly vague), Muslims are given a set of rules which they believe are from God.

In Islam you are almost certainly punished in Hell if you think God is more than one, if you believe then you may get into Heaven. In Christianity you are definitely punished if you don't believe Jesus is God (because no Holy Spirit in you) and this isn't enough to get in Heaven either:-

In Islam you can also be punished if you do wrong (disobedience), but if you did good (charity etc) and regret the wrong then God may forgive you (His name is Most Forgiving also). In Christianity you can also be punished (even after accepting Christ) if you lead your life wrong and don't regret it. You might suddenly say: "But then he isn't a Christian!" well the same can be said of the sinning Muslim - it's not a valid argument to me.

In Islam you are "saved" because living by following Islam will deliver you from temptation in life and your deeds will lean to obedience. In Christianity you are saved when you accept because the Holy Spirit cleanses you and you will lean towards obedience.



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
But again the main thing is not that Islam recognises Jesus and a prophet but it goes back to what Jesus himself said "Who do YOU think I am??"

The modern day Jews are awaiting their Messiah, and so are the Muslims awaiting the Madhi.The Jews claim Jesus was NOT son of God and was not messiah even though they have the concept written of in their faith. So to say you recognise Jesus but then deny who he was you are not really recognising him are you??

It's a pity you cannot grasp anything that's been said. A debate is something in which you answer questions (defence) and then you get to question (attack), you skip answering (leaving it to dlbrandt) and go straight to asking or attacking, sounds like you don't believe in what you "preach" since you can't defend it with reason. I'm not really seeing this as a reply to you, but to others who might read and believe anything you say about Islam.

I couldn't make anything out of your first statement or whatever it meant. The Muslims are awaiting Jesus. They recognise him as a Prophet, so they accept him. You accept that a God would murder a good man. Yep, I can twist things too.



If I say I recognise Mohammed but I dont believe he was Gods only prophet or a prophet of God then I am denying who he himself said he was. Often Muslims and Jews who discredit Jesus as Messiah state that Jesus never said he was the Messiah, but in fact if you read the NT you will see it is implied throughout and this claim was supported by the spread of the Gospel.

You can only deny a book or belief about something that happened in the past. Muslims don't follow the Bible - not just because it was written by Paul who didn't even meet Jesus. I thought you could understand what I meant about how Muslims view the Bible, but I overestimated you and I'm sorry about that.

It seems futile to keep repeating, but maybe you'll get it this time. Muslims don't believe the Bible as fact, but that there is a corruption of how things really were back then - even Christian scholars can accept this. The Qur'an is accepted as Truth, so when it says Jesus was a Prophet we know what parts of the Bible are lies.

You even say it's implied, meaning you aren't sure yourself because some parts say he is some say he isn't God. Well that makes the Bible a bit invalid, and that's what it is to Islam, Islam doesn't need the Bible at all.



Finally to continue arguing is to no avail, seeings as once an alternative view is giving it is up to you to either reject or believe it. If I was a Muslim I would read testimonies of ex Jewish and Islamic people who have become Christians to see what it is all really about.

Yes that's a surprise, perhaps you shouldn't have stepped into this. Testimonies from people who aren't knowledgable of religion are worthless, you going to show me the testimony of some starving African who was converted by a food-offering missionary? Or something from a nobody that I would never be able to trace? I'm sure your dubious pasting from answering-islam won't impress me so don't bother. If you want, go to www.islamtomorrow.com... run by a Christian preacher turned to Islam, and learn something.



The real point to argue is the fruit and whats happening in Islamic states. This cannot be denied by Muslims. You cannot teach any other faith in an Islamic state, and could be murdered for not following Islam. Actually if a Muslim in an Islamic state rejects Islam and follows Jesus Christ they will be killed! Doesnt that alone say something about Islam?? If you turn away from Christianity and leave a church they dont kill you! Neither did they when the Gospel was spread, and neither did Jesus harm anyone who did not believe his message.

The actions of people do not make up a religion, however if you want to go into this. The last state that could be remotely called Islamic was the Ottoman empire, it accepted Jews and Christians in it. Modern so-called Islamic states accept other religions, Iraq is secular, Iran has plenty of churches. I'd like to see where you get this information about killings from, don't Christians kill too? I've heard stories about Christian families too!

"Islamic" governments today treat Muslims bad too, they are simply bad governments if they do. Let's see how Muslims are treated in the West, Guantanamo Bay anyone? Not likely to be there unless you're a (even innocent) Muslim. Should I mention the Crusades, the Inquisition: aren't we lucky the Church doesn't actually run things anymore. Oh wait, Bush is Christian:- His Crusade in the sandbox and his Inquisition in the camps/prisons. So yes, the fruits of religion was a good thing to bring up.

There's always two sides to a war, one side thinks they are right. You see wars where one side is mostly Muslim and forget that the other side is mostly Christian. You need to step out of your side for a moment to see the truth. You also need to step out of your religion for a bit to see the truth there.

Thanks and bye!



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 12:38 PM
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Quote

It's a pity you cannot grasp anything that's been said. A debate is something in which you answer questions (defence) and then you get to
question (attack), you skip answering (leaving it to dlbrandt) and go straight to asking or attacking, sounds like you don't believe in what you "preach" since you can't defend it with reason. I'm not really seeing this as a reply to you, but to others who might read and believe anything you say about Islam.

I couldn't make anything out of your first statement or whatever it meant. The Muslims are awaiting Jesus. They recognise him as a Prophet, so they accept him. You accept that a God would murder a good man. Yep, I can twist things too

Muslims awaiting Jesus? What Jesus? they dont believe in Jesus as Messiah so what Jesus are they waiting for? If you dont believe in Jesus as HE IS IN THE GOSPELS then you DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS.If you reject the son you reject the father.

What do I say about Islam?? You dont even read the posts saying they are too long. So you SKIP ENTIRE POSTS I HAVE MADE AND THEN ACCUSE ME??
ISLAM IS A FALSE RELIGION. That is what I have said about Islam all along and that is what i STILL POST NOW.

And pointing the finger at the camp in Cuba means nothing compared to a religion that has lasted for 1500 years that has encouraged the murder of both christian and jew. Why do you make defence of Islamic states by saying they persecute Muslims to? What is the foundation of their belief and law in Muslim states?? Is it not the KORAN?? the koran is EVIL! It calls for the blood of innocent people , those who do not follow Islam. Is it not RELIGIOUS IMANS who support the laws to kill those who do not follow or those who leave Islam??
Come up with a better answer next time. maybe reading my LONGER POSTS will help. And I hope you have read some Christian testimonies of those who have left the evil cursed relgion of islam, there is all the prove you need.And yes my friend islam is CURSED and yes my friend ISLAM IS EVIL and there is NO PEACE FOR MOHAAMED OR HIS FOLLOWERS.



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 12:44 PM
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I really have to clean my house today, so I won't get anymore answers until tomorrow probably. I hope this helps and I hope your computer is set up for it.

Go to www.johnankerberg.org scroll down and click on Former Muslims Testify About Islam, you can listen to a broadcast about 2 brothers and their testimony.



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Some Christians were beheaded after having been falsely accused of drugs or other crimes reportedly as benign as leading a Bible study or offering prayers. Saudis that convert to Christianity, or "desert Islam," are subject to the death penalty, as well.

-----

Thats what is happening on the ground RIGHT NOW. There are the FACTS about Islam and the EVIL they are commiting on INNOCENT people. You have YET TO ANSWER THIS in any LOGICAL (because you LOVE to quote logic so much) EXCUSE.

Two things for you following the FALSE RELGION OF ISLAM:

You like to use the word logic, as if it is the crowning glory of your faith? LOL. The foolishness of GOD is wiser than the wisdom of man and the WEAKNESS of God is stronger than the strength of man.

In Pslams King David says Mark the righteous man FOR THE END OF THAT MAN IS PEACE. There is NO PEACE IN ISLAM(where is the peace of murdering the innocent ????) AND NO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Finally you say that Koran is the FINAL word of God??? But you ARE WRONG. You say all that before Koran is FALSE and corrupted but KORAN has the REAL truth??? WRONG AGAIN. 80% of KORAN is STOLEN from TORAH and Old Testament. Torah and OT were there first. The original TRUTH. So it is simple to understand, Mohammed has STOLEN the words of the Hebrews, mixed it in with nonsence then sold it off as his OWN RELIGION! Islam is NOT ABOUT ALLAH. It is NOT ABOUT GOD. It is the religion by which you follow MOHAMMED. It is a CULT, with Mohammed as the leader. ALLAH?? Isnt that the ancient MOON GOD???? Wherent arabs worshipping Allah long before Mohammed?? Didnt Mohammed kill those who did not follow him or those who disobeyed him?? Its in the HADITH. It is the written word of your faith.


Links to MUSLIMS TESTIMONIES OF LEAVING ISLAM:

www.testimonies.com.au...
www.precious-testimonies.com...
www.born-again-christian.info...
www.born-again-christian.info...
www.born-again-christian.info...
www.precious-testimonies.com...


If your attitude to the above links is the same as your attitude to my LONG POSTS then I guess you will not read these links. It would be great for you to read them and THEN defend Islam.






[edit on 26-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by Eddie999
It seems to me that it is primarily the US government that is trying to subtly convince people that all Muslims are terrorists and that Islam is evil. Since the collapse of the USSR the US and indeed the western world has not had a scapegoat and Islam seems to be turning into the new secapegoat for the west.

On to the point of Islam. It is not Islam that is dangerous but fundamentalist Islamics. It is the same for all religions - it is the fundamentalists that are the dangerous ones.


You are wrong about the above Eddie, first off, the US government has been very careful not to say that this is a war of religions, in fact they are avoiding this, and they say it is not a war of religions. First because its true that there are good Muslims, but those who are good Muslims for us, are infidels and bad Muslims for radicals, and i am sorry to say, they are also bad Muslims according to the Kuran, this is why they are also killed by radical Muslims.

Some people have said that even in the bible there are references to killing, which is true, but that was before Christ, there is only one part in the bible, in Luke 19:27 where Jesus says "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." It is supposed to be a parable. I guess it is another of the fallacies in the bible. But did Jesus go forth with a sword and kill people? is that what people are taugh by Roman Catholic priests? No, it is not. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and althou I am not religious anymore, I don't remember any priests teaching me to hate others and to kill them in the name of religion.

It is true that there are many parts in the Koran that inspire hatred and killing non-believers. It is also true that Muhammed wasn't the most pious of people, he did kill people in caravans and went against many of the mandates of the Koran, like for example the number of wives he took.

Those people who are good Muslims for us, are so because they probably do not take everything in the Kuran literally, if they did they would be radicals.

" [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. "

Excerpted from.
www.kuran.gen.tr...

The problem with the Kuran and Sharia is that these are perpetual, they do not change with the times, and supposedly are to be followed to solve every problem a Muslim has.

The only way to stop terrorism, or radical Islam forever in peace would be so that every Muslim cleric would step forward and say that there are parts in the Kuran that cannot be taken literally, that we are in different times now from the past and that killing non-believers is wrong. But do any of you see this happening?



posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 02:03 PM
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How would a respectable religion be an enemy. I have seen many threads on this website and heard many people saying islam is bad, it is just as bad as any other religion. Wont you all just grow up.




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