Over 1 Billion Muslims and Growing

Originally posted by paperclip


Now to Jesus.
Jesus is not just any Prophet in Islam, he IS the Messiah. Only Muslims do not use the term Son of God simply because of our concept of God. God is an all-present all-powerful entity and as such he cannot have a son, humans have sons.

Paperclip, this is not the first time that I had to tell you this is not what it says in the Kuran.....

This is what it says.

" The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not "Three." Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him -- (He is) above having a son. (4:171)"

And how exactly do you listen to both messengers Jesus and Muhammed? Muhammed said to take up arms in the name of Islam, but Jesus supposedly did not say this. To follow both Jesus and Mohammed would in itself be a contradiction, because Mohammed did take up arms, he raid caravans and killed people and took many wives including a 9 year old.

Originally posted by philosci
How would a respectable religion be an enemy. I have seen many threads on this website and heard many people saying islam is bad, it is just as bad as any other religion. Wont you all just grow up.

How many followers of other religions are setting up bombs and kill civilians in the thousands and have declared a jihad on others because these civilians are not extremists?

You prefer to ignore terrorism and one of its causes? is that what you call "grow up"?

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by paperclip

. To follow both Jesus and Mohammed would in itself be a contradiction, because ............................... and took many wives including a 9 year old.

1)Well, anyways Ayesha's age dispute has never fully been resolved. Different hadiths state different ages ...anywhere between 9-23.....Thus, none of the sources are unanimous about her age. Although the vast majority of Sunnis and Shias fall trap to this Christian missionary propaganda....in the end no one has conlusively stated with all confidence that she was the age of 9.

here is a website that gives you a detailed breakdown of the debate surrounding Ayesha's age..

www26.brinkster.com...

2) Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is not the only biblical prophet to have multiple wives....Do you remember Prophet Abraham (pbuh) , Prophet David (pbuh), Prophet Solomon (pbuh)?...they all had multiple wives....

----River

Thanks dlbrandt,

Originally posted by dlbrandt
I really have to clean my house today, so I won't get anymore answers until tomorrow probably. I hope this helps and I hope your computer is set up for it.

Go to www.johnankerberg.org scroll down and click on Former Muslims Testify About Islam, you can listen to a broadcast about 2 brothers and their testimony.

I went to the site, first thing I saw:

" Would you consider making a
gift to the ministry at this time?"

It only gave the option "yes," which I thought was funny; the most prominent features on the site are about ordering stuff from them. So I have to wonder whether this is about religion or money and already I was looking at the site with utmost suspicion; since you recommended it I went on anyhow.

I looked (took some time amongst the donation requests!) for the testimony and finally found -- I had to laugh, you have to pay 39 dollars for a DVD of it! Because you have to buy the DVD anyone can guess they were most likely paid to say this and probably weren't Muslim. Anyway you can also stream the video so I did that, despite being scared they'd want to charge for the bandwidth. The two brothers look like white Americans complete with accent but I will let that drop for now, I checked their names and they seem to be drowning in money from this "conversion," step back and try to see what could be happening here. Glad you pointed the site out now I can see why you might view Islam the way you do. Right let me rip it apart:

They think in Islam life is about balancing right and wrong. You can't do a bad deed then think "Oh I better do a good one to balance it," you don't do that because God will see right through that.

They said that "since Muslims believe in Jesus and believe that he was persecuted, why would he be persecuted if he didn't say he was Son of God." Apparently this convinced them to convert. This is laughable, if they were Muslims they would know that Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah (not God) and that is why he was being persecuted. This is the point where I know for sure this is not a worthy testimony.

The one with hair said that once you reject Islam you could never come back. This is untrue, you just have to give witness twice (even if that).

They said that the Qur'an says not to take Jews and Christians as personal friends. This is a misinterpretation, the word is meant to mean as protectors (as in under a Christian state), how can it suggest you can't be friends if it says a Muslim man can marry a Christian woman. Bit odd how he said he didn't have any Christian friends but also said his Christian friend was bugging him to check a church out.

At one point the bald one mentions Hadith 9:57 which suggests to kill those Muslims that reject Islam. He then says it's in the Qur'an which is just a lie. The Hadith is something that is seen as the Muslim Bible, unlike the Qur'an being the Word of God. The Qur'an is always right, but the Hadith is written by various men (not Muhammad) and many are proven to be faked. I'm sure in the old days it is possible that people in the growing Islamic state felt rejecting faith was a terrible thing especially during wars (rather like abandoning an army) so I'm not denying the Hadith validity. In fact I don't disagree with the idea of punishment of abandonment of a religion (different to already being another religion) within that religion's state only, but certainly nothing like death! If one were to reject Islam he could also leave the state first. The Qur'an specifically states freedom of religious practice both explicitly and implicitly, so this practice just cannot be right according to the Qur'an.

He said to tell his father that he was a Christian he brought the subject up as they sat down to eat dinner and pray. I've never known a Muslim to pray at the dinner table. However it's a Christian thing to say Grace, this struck me as odd.

He totally misrepresented verse 5:33 in the Qur'an.

He says Jihad is primarily to go to war. It definitely is not, go to any authentic Islamic site to see what it means.

While it was fun to see the sort of videos you had to pay for, I think it's pretty sick that they are using the current world interest in Islam to grab money. I gave a link to an Islamic convert at www.islamtomorrow.com... and you can contact him if you don't believe, or download plenty of his hour-long lectures (free!). As a minister he was someone who knew Christianity well, in his lectures it is clear he does, so this is a proper testimony to me. Hope you can check it out to see the opposite side.

I seriously hope you don't make a habit of looking at "Christian" sites like "Ankerberg" in trying to know more about Islam, just in the same way you don't find out about biology from a economist. I certainly don't go to Islamic sites when I want to know about Christianity.

good luck.

--Maud'Dib


1)Well, anyways Ayesha's age dispute has never fully been resolved. Different hadiths state different ages ...anywhere between 9-23.....Thus, none of the sources are unanimous about her age. Although the vast majority of Sunnis and Shias fall trap to this Christian missionary propaganda....in the end no one has conlusively stated with all confidence that she was the age of 9.

here is a website that gives you a detailed breakdown of the debate surrounding Ayesha's age..

www26.brinkster.com...

2) Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is not the only biblical prophet to have multiple wives....Do you remember Prophet Abraham (pbuh) , Prophet David (pbuh), Prophet Solomon (pbuh)?...they all had multiple wives....

----River

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by paperclip


Now to Jesus.
Jesus is not just any Prophet in Islam, he IS the Messiah. Only Muslims do not use the term Son of God simply because of our concept of God. God is an all-present all-powerful entity and as such he cannot have a son, humans have sons.

And how exactly do you listen to both messengers Jesus and Muhammed? Muhammed said to take up arms in the name of Islam, but Jesus supposedly did not say this. To follow both Jesus and Mohammed would in itself be a contradiction, because Mohammed did take up arms, ....

Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a Revolutionary. Atleast half of his twelve disciples were from the famous militant Hebrew groups such as Siccari ( i.e Judas Siccari/Iscariot) and the Zealots ( i.e Simon Zelotes / Simon the Zealot)..other members such as Peter whose very name "Petra the RocK" was a fisherman at day but a warrior at night. Jesus Christ (pbuh) advocated peace but at times of crisis...his allegience was to G-d and G-d alone. He was quite proficient in handling the whip as the Bible points out and wanted to overthrow the Roman govt. When he said "render unto Caesor" what belongs to Caesor....this strongly implied that Caesor wasn't worthy of his name because it was Jesus Christ (pbuh) that G-d chose as his Messenger and appointed him to the throne as the King of Israel. The "turn the other cheek" is a misused expression that was specific to a certain context, only.

---River

Heres an example of Bible prophecy being fullfilled right now , at this exact time as prophecied by Habbakuk more than 2000 years ago (maybe this will make the Muslims happy who hate America, but Mohammed isnt the way and the truth or the light regardless of America your enemy Moslim!!):

Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

6
For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's.

7
They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

8
Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.

9
They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.

10
And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.

11
Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

12
Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

14
And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?

15
They take up all of them with the angle, they catch them in their net, and gather them in their drag: therefore they rejoice and are glad.

16
Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous.

17
Shall they therefore empty their net, and not spare continually to slay the nations?



I post this as more evidence that the bible is the true inspired word of God.Gone over Islam enough, either you read the evidence and believe it or you dont, but aruging over and over is pointless, Ive kept to aruging the ISSUE and not ATTACKING other people. Sure I say your God is false and Islam is a lie, but I havent attack you have I?Thats arguing what I believe and backing it up with links(this is the best link covering EVERY aspect and claim of Islam answering-islam.org.uk...), not much more I can do ?? Back to the above quote from the KJV of the Holy Bible.Most of you will NOT BELIEVE THIS,,as the prophecy itself says would happen, but this was appointed for the end time..it tarrys it seems but it will come. Now HOW is this being fullfilled?? Firstly you cannot compare this to an ancient fullfillment because as it is stated it is to occur AT THE END. it is fullfilled by the Chaldeans (or Babylonians the Americans) invading Mid Eastern nations. Afghanistan and Iraqi so far and the law has been passed in America to give the power to invade Iran pre emptively. Will they stop at Iraqi or will they invade more nations?/ I dont know, but whats happened all ready has fullfilled the above prophecy. The world was against the war, America didnt care and went ahead and did it.

This post is to show and give an excellent example of how ACCURATE the TRUE WORD OF GOD IS. 100% All the time. It is happening right now!!! Compare please to Koran and show such an accurate prophecy fullfilled??


Is Damascus still standing?Is this city still as it was many years ago??? What will happen to it in the future??

Isa 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap

Ok now when has this happened anyone?? Has it yet ??Has the likelyhood of this happening not jumped by about 250% in the last 4 years with Americas war on terror?? Who else is going to do that to Damascus other than America or Israel??

Now when this happens..and it will....(please note the rest of Habbakuk to see what happens to the Chaldeans "the THRONE OF KINGDOMS") will you then mock the bible and say it is corrupted???




[edit on 27-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction



Is Damascus still standing?Is this city still as it was many years ago??? What will happen to it in the future??

Isa 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap

Ok now when has this happened anyone?? Has it yet ??Has the likelyhood of this happening not jumped by about 250% in the last 4 years with Americas war on terror?? Who else is going to do that to Damascus other than America or Israel??

Now when this happens..and it will....(please note the rest of Habbakuk to see what happens to the Chaldeans "the THRONE OF KINGDOMS") will you then mock the bible and say it is corrupted???




[edit on 27-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

You don't know a thing about prophecies. It is infact your lord that will descend from heaven in Damascus, Syria.


Lets take a look at what the early saints and Imams of Prophet Muhammad's time period said:

Baghdad is destroyed by fire in the End Times... (Resalatul huruj ul-Mahdi, vol. 3, p. 177)



The Iraqi and Syrian Sanctions

bu Nadr said; We were beside Jabir and he said, The time is coming when not a bushel or a penny will be borne to the people of Iraq.
We said, Who will do this? He replied, The Ajams (non-Arabs) will forbid this. Later he said, Not a dinar, not a bushel will be borne to the people of Damascus. Who will do this? we asked. ''Because of the Romans (Westerners), he responded. (Al-Taj, Ali Nasif al-Hussein)

River Euphrates, according to the Kuran a man can have up to 4 wives, if he is wealthy enough to maintain all of them. Muhammed had 12, one of them 9 years old, and he did rape her, or sleep with her depending on what you believe.

"[T]he Prophet (Muhammed) married her (Aisha) when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64)

This first excerpt can be found here.
www.ummah.org.uk...

"Narrated 'Aisha: 'I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet (Muhammed) and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible).'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 1:4:229)

The second excerpt can be found here.
www.ummah.org.uk...

"Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said to me, 'What type of lady have you married?' I replied, 'I have married a matron'. He said, 'Why, don't you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling them?' Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, 'Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'"
(Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)

This one and some more can also be found here.
www.ummah.org.uk...


BTW, these are taken from a Muslim site, not a Christian site..........

[edit on 27-6-2004 by Muaddib]

I dont know a thing about prophecy?? Well firstly what I quoted were not my own words, they are in the bible...its happening now. The words of the LORD GOD to Hababbkak and Isaiah are being and will be fullfilled.

Dont quote from the Koran..unless you can quote fullfilled prophecy please.
I read this recently about UNFULLFILLED prophecy :

answering-islam.org.uk...

And Bagdad is not completely destroyed. Or is it? Damascus is taken away from being a city it is RUBBLE. That is a city removed, NO MORE. What is happening in Iraqi is fullfillment of Hab NOT KORAN. Firstly the culprits are identified: Chaldeans, Daughter of Babylon NOT THE ROMANS! See when the Lord explains and speaks of the future he does it PERFECTLY because he ALONE IS GOD! And by the way the TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY!! Thats Jesus the Lord , King of Kings who DID die on the cross for the sins of mankind and was not taken to heaven before the very purpose of his coming was fullfilled. Even when Jesus told Peter that he would be delievered up and crucified Peter said no and Jesus rebuked him because his death WAS THE FULLFILLMENT of ALL the prophecy of the OT. So if you deny what he did then you deny the truth of:
1) Jesus himself
2) God the Father
3) All the prophets (true prophets that is)

Whats the point of quoting Koran about Jesus Christ the Messiah?? What he will come from Damascus?? No he returns to the MOUNT OF OLIVES.
And how can Koran say Jesus is MESSIAH and then say God has begat a son?? God forbid!! HMMMM Did Mo even know what the word MESSIAH meant??

We havent even touched on the satanic verses yet. Words from mohammed that he ADMITTED came from SATAN, which he spoke as from coming from Allah.

[edit on 27-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

[edit on 27-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

Originally posted by River Euphrates

Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a Revolutionary. Atleast half of his twelve disciples were from the famous militant Hebrew groups such as Siccari ( i.e Judas Siccari/Iscariot) and the Zealots ( i.e Simon Zelotes / Simon the Zealot)..other members such as Peter whose very name "Petra the RocK" was a fisherman at day but a warrior at night. Jesus Christ (pbuh) advocated peace but at times of crisis...his allegience was to G-d and G-d alone. He was quite proficient in handling the whip as the Bible points out and wanted to overthrow the Roman govt.
---River

Where exactly does Jesus in the bible use a sword or a whip? Jesus took many people from different walks of life, even warriors as disciples, but did he send them to wage a war? Did he fight the Roman empire with a sword or a whip?


[edit on 27-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Muslims do not worship Mohammad, they worhip only God alone. Muslims do NOT follow Muhammads way of life, that IS NOT the focus of faith, you can't compare it to Christians following Christ. You simply can't because Muslims do not follow the footsteps of Mohammad. They don't. THat is not Islam. Was that simple enough now?

THe only book of God is Qur'an, Hadith are words of MEN, NOT GOD, therefore flawed, twisted, made up to suit whoever was at power after Mohammad. MUSLIMS DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW ANYTHING THAT IS WRITTEN IN HADITHS, those are just stories, tales, MYTHS. Certain "rules" from hadiths were enforced by Kings, Goverments, which is a SIN in Islam, it is putting the words of men above words of God.
But as I said once, people are stupid and hungry for power, NOBODY is immune against that.

Jesus died as peaceful man, his followers butchered people, burned them ALIVE, killed the population of TWO continents, ALL in the name of Jesus. I don't even want to start on child molestation by highest representatives of Church. Just what Bible were they reading for 2000 years to be able to justify all that? And they are still fighting wars, constantly, almost every single christian country, including two world wars and 6 million dead Jews. Now, how is that possible??? Where exactly does Jesus say all that is allowed in his name??? Isnt all that the EXACT OPOSITE of his message? If it is the exact oposite then why are people still doing it? Do they read the Bible?

They killed for the same reason some Muslims kill, it is in nature of humans, and NOBODY is immune against it.

There are no prophecies in Qur'an, it is not a book of prophecies, nobody ever claimed it was, you are comparing it to christianity in a way it can't be compared. There is no need for prophecies, God does what he wants when he wants, he is an all-mighty, all-powerful God. The only future Qur'an talks about is the end of the world. And, as in the Bible too, no man knows when it will be, only God knows. Thats enough.
Prophecies in Hadiths are words of men and are equal to nostradamus prophecies for example. Think of it what you will.

I didn't write down the questions this time, going to go be memory. A couple of times you questioned that the deterrent to stop sinning wasn't there. Since God(the Holy Spirit) is living in me, He opens my eyes to sin. Things I used to do, that I didn't know where wrong, He lets me know that I shouldn't do them. Now the reason you can still sin when you are saved is 1) you can unknowingly do something that you didn't know was a sin 2) we still live in a fallen world and are still in our bodies that can sin and we can still be tempted to sin. 3)we can just flat out disobey God. It is always a christians choice to sin. Since we have the Holy Spirit in us He gives us the strenghth to say no to sin. As stated before we choose not to obey Him and thus sin. Being a christian is a day by day growth and learning experience. As far as Jesus died for us so we can sin and not worry about it, that isn't the case. When we sin our relationship with God is hurt. We don't lose our salvation, but our growth and learning and being tranformed into the "likeness" of Christ is stunted until we confess and realize we have sinned and seek forgiveness. In my case I don't want to put anymore sin on Christ, I have hurt Him enough when He was on the cross. And as far as getting off when we sin. A christian can sin and that sin is covered by the blood of Christ, but we can still be disciplined by God and He can let us "suffer" from the result of our sin. EX. Someone could sin by having an affair. When we truly ask forgiveness we are forgiven. But God can let a child result from that encounter, or what if the person you had the affair with had AIDS. God can choose to keep you from getting AIDS, but He doesn't have too. He could allow you to get the disease. And if you are married that could be the end of your marriage. The deterrent to stop sinning is I want to be "like" Christ, I don't want to hurt Him anymore and we can still have undesirable consequences from our actions. Our nature is changed too. I don't want sin between me and God. We're no longer a "prisoner" of sin we can say no. I know I forgot something but I have to pick up one of my kids from soccer practice.

Originally posted by Muaddib
River Euphrates, according to the Kuran a man can have up to 4 wives, if he is wealthy enough to maintain all of them. Muhammed had 12, one of them 9 years old, and he did -----edit ---- her, or sleep with her depending on what you believe.

While I understand your enthusiasm to preach to me .........

1)I have already provided a steady rebuttal about "Ayesas Age Dispute". I don't know why you are presenting those specific quotes as the website I linked deals with those verses as well as many other verses pertaining to Ayesa's age. Ayesa's age is disputed and there are hadiths that state that her age was anywhere between 9-23. Thus, no one can say with certainty that she was 9 years of age.

2)Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married numerous wives(of different rival clans and tribes) for political reasons and for helping unifying the opposing clans of arabia...

3) The Qur'an supports monogamy over polygamy.....In all my years as a Muslim , I have never even met a polygamous Muslim couple. Having multiple wives is okay during wartime scenario , where many male soldiers dye leaving behind many widows who have no finanicial support base.


----River

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction



Dont quote from the Koran..unless you can quote fullfilled prophecy please.
I read this recently about UNFULLFILLED prophecy :

answering-islam.org.uk...


[edit on 27-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

1) I didn't quote from the Holy Qur'an. Thus I have no idea what you are talking about.

2) I never take the anti-Islamic website "answering-islam" seriously. If you are going to be against Islam....why be soo blatant, TruthStrgnrThanFiction?


-----River

dlbrandt,

Originally posted by dlbrandt
I didn't write down the questions this time, going to go be memory. A couple of times you questioned that the deterrent to stop sinning wasn't there. Since God(the Holy Spirit) is living in me, He opens my eyes to sin. Things I used to do, that I didn't know where wrong, He lets me know that I shouldn't do them. Now the reason you can still sin when you are saved is 1) you can unknowingly do something that you didn't know was a sin 2) we still live in a fallen world and are still in our bodies that can sin and we can still be tempted to sin. 3)we can just flat out disobey God. It is always a christians choice to sin. Since we have the Holy Spirit in us He gives us the strenghth to say no to sin. As stated before we choose not to obey Him and thus sin. Being a christian is a day by day growth and learning experience. As far as Jesus died for us so we can sin and not worry about it, that isn't the case. When we sin our relationship with God is hurt. We don't lose our salvation, but our growth and learning and being tranformed into the "likeness" of Christ is stunted until we confess and realize we have sinned and seek forgiveness. In my case I don't want to put anymore sin on Christ, I have hurt Him enough when He was on the cross. And as far as getting off when we sin. A christian can sin and that sin is covered by the blood of Christ, but we can still be disciplined by God and He can let us "suffer" from the result of our sin. EX. Someone could sin by having an affair. When we truly ask forgiveness we are forgiven. But God can let a child result from that encounter, or what if the person you had the affair with had AIDS. God can choose to keep you from getting AIDS, but He doesn't have too. He could allow you to get the disease. And if you are married that could be the end of your marriage. The deterrent to stop sinning is I want to be "like" Christ, I don't want to hurt Him anymore and we can still have undesirable consequences from our actions. Our nature is changed too. I don't want sin between me and God. We're no longer a "prisoner" of sin we can say no. I know I forgot something but I have to pick up one of my kids from soccer practice.

You could open two web browsers or use wordpad to write your post while reading mine, instead of using memory.

This is pretty much what I understood about this sin-belief in Christianity, and you gave a clear explanation, thanks. Crucially, I did ask for a list of sins according to God, which must be written in the Bible so that we may know what is a sin. If we don't know what a sin is will we always unknowingly sin? You did say the Holy Spirit only gives us strength to say no to sin, but we need to actually know what is a sin before we use that strength. The (brief) ten commandments is there, but is there something more substantial. Is the Holy Spirit really, as you said, "opening eyes" to sin, actually telling you? If so, is it through just a vague feeling of guilt (from nowhere) but unfortunately AFTER the sin was done?

Second question, if you accept Christ as God:- what if you don't care too much about "hurting Jesus" because you're in a mess yourself, and so you continue to majorly sin (kill, rape, steal often) despite the Holy Spirit telling you not to. But you're compelled to steal because you feel you need money to be happy, or kill for an outlet of stress. Would you still surely go to Heaven? Afterall you accepted Christ, but you just needed to hurt others to be happy - selfish yes, but forgiven for being "weak?"

Finally, I'm guessing from that link you posted (earlier) your information about Islam comes exclusively from Christian or anti-Islamic sources. So it is very hard to have a conversation of reason without a common, balanced ground. All I can suggest is you learn about a doctrine from those that both understand it properly and practice it: www.islamonline.net...

Thanks

The Prophet Jesus indeed was in fact a revolutionary. Just because there aren't accounts of him killing people doesn't mean he wasn't one, he was probably a pacifist revolutionary- ever hear of Gandhi?

And there are indeed verses in the bible where Jesus specifically says he did not to bring peace, but war. He also said he came to divide a son from his father, a daughter from her mother, and that no one who believed him he commanded his followers to bring to him to have him killed. But Christians never talk about those verses.

The Prophet Muhammad did marry a six year old girl but he didn't consumate the marriage until she reached her first period which is the start of a young girl coming into womanhood. That was a perfectly normal scenarion back then and there was nothing wrong with it.

Muhammad lived in a very different time than that of Jesus. Jesus lived heaven on earth while Muhammad live hell on earth.

In Jesus' time, sure Roman authority was heavy, but taxes were paid and there were no revolts so Roman officials let the Jews live.

Muhammad's life required him to take up arms, which he did.

Did Muhammad kill people? Yes
But so did Moses, David, and Joshua

Joshua wiped out an entire people (Caananites) and David consolidated Israel's power with his sword.

But Moses, David, and Joshua were revolutionary, political, and religious figures in their own time and today they are patrioarchs to Judaism.

Same with The Prophet Muhammad.

God "opens" our eyes to sin through 1) Daily reading the Bible-it is here that we learn who God is and who we are. 2)God may choose to speak to you through other christians 3)In your spirit. God could talk audibly to you if He chose to. This has never happened to me. Since the Holy Spirit lives in me and has brought my dead spirit back to life, and my way of thinking is being renewed, it is usually an "uneasy feeling " if I'm going to do something I shouldn't, and a "yes, this is the way" feeling if I'm trying to figure out what to do in a certain situation. Although I have had times of definite yes or no answers when I am faced with something.

If you didn't care about "hurting Jesus" and so you wanted to continue to sin, say stealing to provide for yourself, my first thought is, you have to ask youself if you really accepted Christ as Savior and Lord. After that I would say if you are sure of your decision for Christ, then you need to rely on Him to provide. Then each individual is diiferent, maybe instead of having a job, you stole things to get what you wanted. So the first thing God tell you to do is get a job and stop stealing. Will you have everything you "want", probably not. But God will see that you have everything you need. This is kinda hard to answer because every person is different and God works in each one differently to "clean up our lives" and make us more like Christ. Although I will say, this is my own opinion, God probably works on your most destructive sins first. For example if you were a serial killer and you did accept Christ, my gut feeling is He would "tell" you to turn yourself into the authorities and confess to the murders you have committed. This would get you out of society at large which will help prevent you from killing in the future. Even though this person would be forgiven by God, does that mean He could expect God to "fix things" so He wouldn't have to go to prison. Absolutely not, God will let him be sent to prison, but God will be in the prison with Him. And if the death penalty should result as part of the judgement, while this would be hard to face, his hope would be that that moment after he physically dies, he will be with God in soul and spirit and will be waiting for the resurrection. If he has to face the rest of his life in prison, God put him there to learn and take responsibility for his actions. He also has him there to be an example to the others in prison and help them when called upon.

Another little thing to throw in. Alot of peolpe think once you become a christian you'll never have another problem. That is a completely false statement and concept. Believers and unbelievers alike have problems and blessings. When an unbeliever has a problem God has let it come into their life to get their attention, and hopefully they turn their attention on Him and question things. And in questioning and searching(Bible reading, conversations with others(saved and unsaved) and prayer) they will hopefully have all their senses open and receptive to hear from Him and come to Him for salvation and a new life. When God brings a problem into a believers life, it isn't to destroy him but to surface those things in his life that aren't Godly and he has to deal with them. In return if you respond correctly you will be learning Christlike character and will be transformed into His "image". Remember God won't force you to choose Him, but remember it is a choice, so if you choose to reject Christ in this life, He will honor that choice(which in truth is a life without God). You may live to be 80, 90 or 100. But remember 1 out of every 1 person dies. If you reject Him in this life, that is also a choice for rejecting Him in your death, and that will mean eternal, everlasting seperation from God. Don't blame God for sending you to hell, you chose to go there. God did everything needed to keep you out. He died for you, then He was at work your whole life trying to get your attention. He sent blessings, problems, miracles, maybe even some "unexplained supernatural things" and christians into your life, desperately trying to turn you from yourself to Him. If you ignored all of these, there is nothing more He could do. He will not completely invade your free will. He wants you to love Him because you want to, not because you have to. Without the power to chose there is no ability to love.

You asked what sin is, there are the 10 Commandments. Also loving the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strenghth(choosing to make Him first in your life and daily decisions about everything.) Loving and praying for your enemies. And "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That's a big one because it's proactive not reactive. I have an ex-wife who pays me child support for 42 weeks a year and usually its late and it's her doing most of the time. But for 10 weeks a year I have to pay her. Do I purposely make hers late, no. Because I 'm a christian and I would always like mine on time(even though it sometimes doesn't happen) I make sure I get hers to her on time. I treat her like I want to be treated, even if that means she still makes mine late. The more God makes you like Him the more He is going to require of you. Sounds like hard thing, sometimes it is, but God is preparing every christian for eternity, where we will have rewards beyond our imagination. He is going to share ALL of His creation with us. That means someday we will be able to travel throughout the entire universe. Maybe He'll have us in charge of a certain quadrant of the universe. And think about this, what if there is more besides this universe that we can't even imagine or comprehend. Someday we'll get in on that too. This is something anybody can get in on. In old westerns, one cowboy would say to the other, "This town ain't big enough for the 2 of us". You say the opposite about the universe, "It's big enough for all of us".

Originally posted by Illmatic67
And there are indeed verses in the bible where Jesus specifically says he did not to bring peace, but war. He also said he came to divide a son from his father, a daughter from her mother, and that no one who believed him he commanded his followers to bring to him to have him killed. But Christians never talk about those verses.

Muhammad lived in a very different time than that of Jesus. Jesus lived heaven on earth while Muhammad live hell on earth.

To illmatic67

Ok I'll talk about it.
When Jesus talks about bringing war not peace, and turning son against father etc., He is talking spritually. He came as the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is saying belief in His death for payment of sins is the only way back to God and heaven after death. Let's say a Jewish father mocked Jesus while He was on the cross, but before that he had a son who took bread and fish to a meeting where Jesus spoke, this boy watched as Jesus made his lunch stretch and feed 5000 people till they were full. This boy comes home and tells his father what Jesus just did and how he had a part in it. He smiles and confirms how he believes in Jesus. His father yells at him and tells him that no son of mine will follow this Jesus. One is against the other. The boy has a choice, does he keep "peace" with his father and renounce Christ. Or is he at "war" with his father and say, "I saw what happened and will continue to follow and believe in Jesus". In response he hears, "Then you are no son of mine". Jesus is saying I have come with the truth, even if someone you dearly love disagrees with you about me, you know you have heard from me and now you must choose me first above your father or mother or whoever.

You also mentioned how Jesus told his followers to bring unbelievers to Him to have killed. I've read the entire Bible several times and have never seen that part. Could you please give me the reference for that.

And how did Jesus live heaven on earth?
Thanks