Atheists should thank Christians for the freedom to NOT believe, wonder if they do?

Originally posted by hippomchippo
He's obviously trolling, look at the last line in the title of the thread, it's obvious flame baiting and pathetic.

Christians persecute atheists for thousands of years, then get told off by the constitution and freedom of religion and now we should thank them.

I tend to agree, but I'd like to think not and am hoping for an honest answer...

If you look at the 2nd post, it's cool - I've apologised for all us heathens already.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Why do you ignore history my friends?

I don't believe anybody denied that some presidents were christians and that some states have/had religious requirements.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
a body of presumably religious people set up a system absolutely devoid of their religious beliefs.

THATS IT!!!!

You got it, congrats...

Pretty wise believers I'd say

Originally posted by jokei
....

Can we all just live and let live? If some of us don't want to live the way(s) the others do, can we all just agree to disagree and still take time to be nice and courteous to each other?

OT's been nice and courteous correct?

Originally posted by OldThinker
You are not being rude...

relevance to the OP?

What does troll-like mean? hidden?

Have you seen?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What am I hiding friend?

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response.

Lazy research/sourcing.

I'm not asking what previous topics you've posted - I've looked and don't really have the time to wade through an awful lot of threads. You're viewpoint is entirely relevant to this thread and it can't be that hard to encapsulate in a few brief paragraphs your religious feelings etc can it?

Edit to add:

Originally posted by OldThinker
OT's been nice and courteous correct?

Courtesy would include giving an honest answer to an honest question.

[edit on 6/8/1010 by jokei]

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
a body of presumably religious people set up a system absolutely devoid of their religious beliefs.

THATS IT!!!!

You got it, congrats...

Pretty wise believers I'd say

Very wise indeed.

Still, I don't owe thanks to christians for this. I would owe more thanks to the principles of the Masons which already had such egalitarian ideas established.

And even still, they didn't give me the freedom. I was born with it.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Annee
...into doing their rituals right.

Actually - I never accepted the concept of god and religion as a child. I wanted to - but I didn't.
...

Interesting way you put that...could you elaborate on the "want to" part? Why? Curious?

I was a child. That's it.

A child wants to believe adults.

I couldn't get past the title. I am grateful to any religious people who choose not to push their beliefs upon me. And since the title mentions no country, it surely couldn't mean only in America, could it? Regardless, I thank human tolerance and not some religious group for the freedom to express any views I have - for we all are free to believe as we wish, just not necessarily to bring it up. (Think spouting the wrong ideology in the presence of fundamentalist factions who, while you kept your mouth shut and just held your own beliefs, were smiling. It's speaking of the beliefs that they try to control.)

[edit on 8/6/2010 by Amaterasu]

Deists arent "Christian."

And, while I do agree that Jesus himself argued for a separation of church and state. "give unto Cesar what is Cesars and unto God what is Gods," not all people who call themselves "Christian" follow the teachings of Jesus. (non-judgment, said separation of church and state, loving the neighbor and enemy alike, etc.)

So, I feel no need (even though I am not an Atheist) to thank "Christians" for the separation of church and state. Most who call themselves that are not, in fact, followers of Christ, and many who call themselves that are engaged in a "war" or "battle" with the secular and their fondest hope is to rid the US of that feature.

I am grateful for the few true Christians who did contribute to the cause of the separation of church and state and freedom of religion here in the US. And the Deists and others as well. But I am not going to offer some broad thanks to just every Paulian in Christian clothing who would love nothing more than to overturn it.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
....Still, I don't owe thanks to christians for this. I would owe more thanks to the principles of the Masons which already had such egalitarian ideas established.

And even still, they didn't give me the freedom. I was born with it.

hmm? the following doesn't sound overly masonic?

Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said.

"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."




Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said,

"The Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."




Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution.

"For avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."




Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote,

"Why should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Originally posted by OldThinker
Sorry not true…

Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers

Number….percentage of total

Episcopalian/Anglican 88…54.7%
Presbyterian 30…18.6%
Congregationalist 27…16.8%
Quaker 7…4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6…3.7%
Lutheran 5…3.1%
Catholic 3…1.9%
Huguenot 3…1.9%
Unitarian 3… 1.9%
Methodist 2… 1.2%
Calvinist 1… 0.6%
TOTAL 204

As today - - in politics - - not being affiliated with a religion (preferably Christian) - narrows your chance of success.

Belonging to a church and going through the motions - - does not guarantee you are religious.

The actions of many "good" Christians in politics today - - proves that.

reply to post by OldThinker


You act as though Christians haven't attempted and don't continue to attempt at forcing their beliefs on others..

IMO it's a self invited attack, ever see a Christian try to guilt trip you into being a christian?

I have.

But I live and let live. Arguing over religion or non religion is a stupid thing in my eyes..

Besides you can't say christians don't enjoy it. In my experience, Christians seem to thrive in the idea that they are being persecuted.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by OldThinker

 

You act as though Christians haven't attempted and don't continue to attempt at forcing their beliefs on others...

Now that lazy friend...

First I'm not "acting"

Second I didn't mention the failures of the church people in my OP

Third you are stating the obvious...yes there are bad apples out there, no Genesis 1 pun intended

Originally posted by OldThinker
Now that lazy friend...

Hmm, lazy as not being bothered to state your stance?

Sadly I think the general opinion here is right, boring troll is boring.

ATTENTION!!!

Those not digging the OP are proving a clear point....

Ready?


Here is a measured response, from an atheist...

"OT, thanks for posting those quotes, I didn't realize there were strict christians that believed the founding of this nation was built so that I could choose NOT TO BELIEVE. that's neat, I didn't realize that, cool."

But no...I get "he's trolling" they were ALL diests, etc etc...

Come on, isn't there one open atheist open to learning?????

[edit on 6-8-2010 by OldThinker]

reply to post by jokei


do you want me to say I follow Jesus?

More to ignore may be?


On March 6, 1799, President John Adams called for a National Fast Day in which he appealled to U.S. citizens “that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to his righteous requisitions in time to come…”

Referring again to Christopher Columbus, he once said of his voyage that, “There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit…”

The Continental Congress issued the First national Proclamation of Thanksgiving on November 1, 1777 that included the following paragraph: “That it may please Him, to prosper the trade and manufactures of the people, and the labor of the husbandman, that our land may yet yield its increase; to take school and seminaries of education, so necessary for cultivating the principles of true liberty, virtue and piety, under His nurturing hand, and to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth ‘in righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.’”

General Robert E. Lee said, “There are things in the old Book which I may not be able to explain, but I fully accept it as the infallible Word of God, and receive its teachings as inspired by the Holy Spirit.”

Benjamin Rush who described himself as a Christocrat, wrote to his wife during his final illness, “My excellent wife, I must leave you, but God will take care of you. By the mystery of Thy holy incarnation; by Thy holy nativity; by Thy baptism, fasting, and temptation; by Thine agony and bloody sweat; by Thy cross and passion; by Thy precious death and burial; by Thy glorious resurrection and ascension, and by the coming of the Holy Ghost, blessed Jesus, wash away all my impurities, and receive me into Thy everlasting kingdom.”

Abraham Lincoln said, on March 30, 1863: “Whereas, the Senate of the U.S. devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation: And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord: And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people?”

reply to post by OldThinker

A plea to atheists … please live us Christians alone…you have your freedom because of us, don’t you see this?

You might as well be claiming the Jews have freedom because of the Nazis. Christians spent centuries burning, torturing and killing people of other faiths and unbelievers who were brave enough to state their disbelief.

Simply because Christianity became less violent doesn't mean anybody owes it anything.

Christianity also SUPPORTED tyrants by giving them the divine right to rule and made excuses for slavery with passages from the Bible like Colossians 3:22 and many others espousing slavery as okay with God.

All are allowed to worship as they please

Umm... no.

The first commandment is Thou Shalt Have no other Gods before Me

That's about as anti-first amendment as it gets. Simply because our Founding Fathers believed in God doesn't mean that effected the system of government they created. In fact it is clear from the Constitution and Declaration that they were setting up a secular government free of ties to religion. Those same government-religion ties had led to tragedy, war and unspeakable horror in Europe for centuries.

To the atheist, what are your thoughts here?

That this post is hogwash.

Of course there are plenty of Christians in history who have supported freedom of religion but there are also those who went out into the world to spread Christ by the sword - sometimes by government edict.

Did we get our founding principals from Christians? Yes, generally this is a true assertion, most of the Founders were Christians. But many of them were Deists who openly admitted their lack of fondness for the Bible. From Thomas Paine's Age of Reason:

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

Source

It is clear from the Constitution, Declaration and the writings of the Founders themselves that they set up a secular government designed to protect the rights of the people. Aside from those rights coming from a nondescript "creator" there doesn't seem to be much influence from any one religion over another. It is clear they drew upon many sources for this new form of government.

Originally posted by OldThinker
hmm? the following doesn't sound overly masonic?

Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said.

"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."

So what? The DOI is not the Constitution and the DOI contains nothing that reflects Rush's opinion.

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said,

"The Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."

Noah Webster is clearly incorrect and provides nothing to back up his claim.

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution.

"For avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

So what? He signed off on a document that set up a government that does not feature the qualities defined by his opinion.

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote,

"Why should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Thankfully we didn't set up a system in which religious inculcation from infancy was established. Fisher Ames has a lot of explaining to do about his opinion that a book which describes the most immoral behavior imaginable as actually containing "pure morals".

Originally posted by OldThinker

Come on, isn't there one open atheist open to learning?????

Learning? Learning what. Your purpose is not quite clear.

Does one Christian speak for ALL Christians?

Does one Atheist speak for ALL Atheists?

One quote from one Atheist isn't saying much.