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Atheists should thank Christians for the freedom to NOT believe, wonder if they do?

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posted on Aug, 10 2010 @ 08:01 AM
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I'd hardly say "clearly". I'm not naive enough to believe that politics is only a product of this generation in Washington. You say "the words speak for themselves", well, I agree, the words of a great number of our founding fathers do speak VOLUMES on the matter. However, I don't look at the exception (The treaty of Tripoli) to the rule to define the rule. That would be a logical fallacy.

The fact is, it was written to Muslims, and it's not outside the realm of plausibility that when it was written we were merely playing international politics for our best interests. You may wish to base your claims on one sentence in one treaty, but I like to look at a broad collection of statements from numerous founding fathers to come to my conclusion.




posted on Aug, 10 2010 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

The fact is, it was written to Muslims, and it's not outside the realm of plausibility that when it was written we were merely playing international politics for our best interests. You may wish to base your claims on one sentence in one treaty, but I like to look at a broad collection of statements from numerous founding fathers to come to my conclusion.


I did not base it on a single sentence in a treaty although that really is all that's necessary. I also implored you to read the Constitution and report back to us the christianity you found in the document. I can save you some effort by stating clearly that there is none and when religion is mentioned it is only in the context of what the government cannot do.

Despite the fact that many of the founders were religious people the documents which form the USA are blatantly secular, and there exists no document that supports your theory that the statement in the Treaty Of Tripoli was a political lie and that the USA actually was founded upon the christian religion. I will say it again that you are clearly incorrect so far in your assertions.



posted on Aug, 10 2010 @ 11:07 AM
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Are you trying to assert that I stated we were formed as a Theocracy? I never claimed as such, so it's very disingenuous to make the statement we were founded upon the 'Christian RELIGION'.



posted on Aug, 10 2010 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Are you trying to assert that I stated we were formed as a Theocracy? I never claimed as such, so it's very disingenuous to make the statement we were founded upon the 'Christian RELIGION'.


You portrayed a sentence from the Treaty Of Tripoli dealing specifically with christian religious foundations of America as not to be taken at face value, but to assume it being a statement existing solely for political benefit.

You then make this vague, confusing sentence:


However, I don't look at the exception (The treaty of Tripoli) to the rule to define the rule.


Since you're making little sense across this thread I'll have to ask you what in the hell you're actually saying.



posted on Aug, 10 2010 @ 09:10 PM
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What I'm saying is look at all the various quotes from the fathers of this nation. The quotes from the men who created this nation. The quotes where they affirm their Christianity and it's influence in the forming of this nation. One of my favorites is from George Washington. "There is no king other than King Jesus."

Read at your leisure



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What I'm saying is look at all the various quotes from the fathers of this nation. The quotes from the men who created this nation. The quotes where they affirm their Christianity and it's influence in the forming of this nation. One of my favorites is from George Washington. "There is no king other than King Jesus."

Read at your leisure


So you're not saying anything then?

I don't care about the quotes from "the fathers of this nation". Half of that list is from pre-independence America which was punctuated by religious lunacy, and no matter what some "founding fathers" or state charters claim about their religious preferences the fact is that the USA's founding documents are not religious in any way and in fact place religious restrictions on the government.

The United States is in no way founded upon the christian religion. This remains a true statement.



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



The United States is in no way founded upon the christian religion. This remains a true statement.


Of course it does. I have no clue why you keep stating this above. I never once claimed the United States is or has ever been a Theocracy. Why are you purposefully mis-stating my position then ranting about that pseudo-position you yourself asserted??? Do you understand the term "straw man argument"?



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 



The United States is in no way founded upon the christian religion. This remains a true statement.


Of course it does. I have no clue why you keep stating this above. I never once claimed the United States is or has ever been a Theocracy. Why are you purposefully mis-stating my position then ranting about that pseudo-position you yourself asserted??? Do you understand the term "straw man argument"?



I would not have done such a thing should you not have posited that this statement was only issued because it was politically beneficial.



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 12:00 PM
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Okay, then what else am I supposed to deduct from one obscure statement in a single treaty that was written to a Muslim nation when I can read hundreds of quotes from founding fathers that state the EXACT opposite in regards to the influence of Christianity in forming this nation. Am I supposed to disregard the numerous statements from them in favor of the one sentence of the treaty? Then on top of that, am I also supposed to think that saying something for political opportunity is something that only exists today and was not a part of politics for centuries??

You tell me how I am to reconcile the two facts, that the treaty has a single sentence refuting the notion that we are a Christian nation, and the numerous (hundreds) of quotes from the men who founded this nation stating their faith and reliance on the Christian faith in forming this nation. Either we were founded upon Christianity or we were not, it's not both ways, and unless you have more evidence than a single sentence in a single treaty to a Muslim nation then it's plain to see the preponderance of the evidence is on the quotes from the founding fathers stating the United States was founded upon Christianity.

It's an enormous logical fallacy to use the exception to the rule to define the rule. Have you heard that before?

[edit on 11-8-2010 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

You tell me how I am to reconcile the two facts, that the treaty has a single sentence refuting the notion that we are a Christian nation, and the numerous (hundreds) of quotes from the men who founded this nation stating their faith and reliance on the Christian faith in forming this nation. Either we were founded upon Christianity or we were not, it's not both ways, and unless you have more evidence than a single sentence in a single treaty to a Muslim nation then it's plain to see the preponderance of the evidence is on the quotes from the founding fathers stating the United States was founded upon Christianity.

It's an enormous logical fallacy to use the exception to the rule to define the rule. Have you heard that before?


Since when is it a fallacy to accept the truth of a statement which is backed by evidence? It's not a fallacy at all. It's actually a fallacy to suspect that the founding fathers were truthful about some of their statements (religious) but lied about others (political). The fallacy is confirmation bias to be precise.

The way you reconcile the statement in the treaty with your presumption that because the founding fathers were religious that the USA was founded upon christianity is simple: read the documents that founded the country. I've already asked you to do this and report back on the christianity that you'd find and you not only haven't, but have shot back with some quotes completely unrelated to my suggestion. You'll have to face some ugly realities such as that the first amendment violates the first commandment. And it provides the freedom to break nearly all of them should one choose. And that there is no indication of christianity anywhere at all.

Despite how badly you wish to believe that the USA was founded on christianity or christian principles, no set of quotes representing the religiosity of the founding fathers can overcome the fact that a simple reading of the founding documents reveals none whatsoever, nor that the USA was in any way founded as a christian nation nor on christian principles. Sorry, but the documents speak for themselves and no religiously-inspired history revisionist has ever proven anything in favor of such a case.

[edit on 11-8-2010 by traditionaldrummer]



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 12:28 PM
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Heard of Solon? Solon (ancient Greek: Σόλων, c. 638 BC–558 BC) was an Athenian statesman, lawmaker, and poet. He is remembered particularly for his efforts to legislate against political, economic and moral decline in archaic Athens. His reforms failed in the short term yet he is often credited with having laid the foundations for Athenian democracy.

Here are his ten commandments:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

Unlike the Commandments of Moses, none of these is outdated or antithetical to modern moral or political thought. Every one could be taken up by anyone today, of any creed--except perhaps only one. And indeed, there is something much more profound in these commandments. They are far more useful as precepts for living one's life. Can society, can government, prevail and prosper if we fail to uphold the First Commandment of Moses?

By our own written declaration of religious liberty for all, we have staked our entire national destiny on the belief that we not only can get by without it, but we ought to abolish it entirely. Yet what if we were to fail to uphold Solon's first commandment? The danger to society would be clear--indeed, doesn't this commandment speak to the heart of what makes or breaks a democratic society? Isn't it absolutely fundamental that we not trust the promises of politicians and flatterers, but elect our leaders and choose our friends instead by taking the trouble to evaluate the goodness of their character? This, then, can truly be said to be an ideal that is fundamental to modern moral and political thought.

www.infidels.org...



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Are you kidding me, the SECOND sentence in the Declaration of Independence declares all men have certain rights given to us by our "Creator".

Reminds me of a Bible verse specifically...

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is LIBERTY."

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." ~ George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." ~ Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." ~ Benjamin Franklin

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." ~ John Jay (1st CJ of the USSC)

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." ~ John Qunicy Adams

"The Declaration of Independence appeals to God no less than three times. Four to those who can see His Name in the phrase "protection of divine providence". Five to those who can admit the phrase "created equal" means created by God, not evolved from chaos."

SOURCE

Now, because the USA is still not China, (yet), you're more than welcome to cling to one obscure sentence in a treaty written to a Muslim nation. However, I myself will place my trust in the great volume of speeches, quotes, and documents that state the contrary. It's called PREPONDERANCE of the EVIDENCE.

That's "logic".



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Are you kidding me, the SECOND sentence in the Declaration of Independence declares all men have certain rights given to us by our "Creator".


So what? That says nothing specifically of christianity in any way. How about the Constitution? Did you read that? Apparently not since you spurted back some more quotes that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


Now, because the USA is still not China, (yet), you're more than welcome to cling to one obscure sentence in a treaty written to a Muslim nation. However, I myself will place my trust in the great volume of speeches, quotes, and documents that state the contrary. It's called PREPONDERANCE of the EVIDENCE.

That's "logic".


No, that's grasping at straws to continue believing something in the face of a mass of contradictory evidence. For the fifth or so time, check the documents which form the USA and report back to me on the christianity you find. ~:>



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


For fun....

TD, let's just say he's right...

How would that change things for you?

OT



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Heard of Solon? Solon (ancient Greek: Σόλων, c. 638 BC–558 BC) ....



Wonder how Solon got a copy of the 10 commandments, so they could tweak it



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


For fun....

TD, let's just say he's right...

How would that change things for you?

OT



Thankfully, he's not right.

If he was right it would change things for everybody, not just me. But no reason to fantasize about life in a country founded as a christian nation. We may as well play "what if the south won the war"....



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Hey thx for the quick reply...

but it wasn't a serious one

try again maybe

:shk:



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Hey thx for the quick reply...

but it wasn't a serious one

try again maybe

:shk:


Actually I did answer:


If he was right it would change things for everybody, not just me



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 07:01 PM
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how?

for the worse?

OT



posted on Aug, 11 2010 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Are u kidding me? Where is this "mass contradictory evidence" you speak of? You've presented one sentence from a treaty we made with a Muslim nation. The only "mass contradictory evidence" that's been presented between the two of us is the hundreds of speeches, quotes, and Constitutions of the States that I HAVE PRESENTED contrary to the one sentence you so dearly cling to.




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