Atheists should thank Christians for the freedom to NOT believe, wonder if they do?

continuing with a few by benny franklin.

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." - letter to his father, 1738 ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." . "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728 . "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75 . "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." . "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." . "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac . "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." . "I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them." . "In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

Originally posted by Aggie Man

Originally posted by OldThinker
so the political structure the 50 out of the 52 signers of the declaration Christians put into place that allows freedom to NOT believe...

Freedom to practice is what they gave us....

No man gives another the freedom to believe.

oh ok, thats valid...

Thanks...

btw, how does one "practice" atheism...seems like an oxy-moron to OT?

reply to post by OldThinker




Dude... I'm not getting into an "US and them" argument.... it's pathetic.


If you honestly believe Christianity has ever looked favourably on any other religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs... or has helped advance mankind in anyway.... treated the mentally Ill well or anything like this.... then you know NOTHING about the history of your religion.

Go research.... You make the Chinese look like a Charity organization.

Absolutely ridiculous claims! This world would have been much better off if NO religion ever formed.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by theuhstuf]

my point with the quotes is the o.p. makes it sound like the freedom granted by the founding father is because they were christians. this is just not the case.

does anyone get this, or is the truth just not relevant to this thread?

Originally posted by rubbertramp
from my research i have come to the conclusion that the majority of the founding fathers were deists, not christians.

How many deities did ealy America have? hm???

You seem to like to quotes, so here's some

John Dickinson, a signer of the Constitution, who said…

“Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.”

And…

John Adams who said:

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.” [on June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

And…”Posterity, you will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains.”

And…

Read some of the quotes from one of the first Supreme Court Justices…

Quote # 1: “There never has been a period of history, in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundation.”

Quote # 2: “It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God, and the support of religion constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape.”

Quote # 3: “The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government.”

lol Your right there, we have no practice

My method is to enjoy my Sunday morning in a nice bed rather than a hard pew, but your preference is your own.
Thanking Mother Nature for what we have over God could also be consider a practice of atheism I guess, however to a believer of God that would also seem "redundant" because they would claim that Mother Nature is a gift of god.

It's just a circle I don't like to get involved in. If I were an Atheist with the ambition to convert others to my belief I have no idea where I would begin. Maybe stand out side a church shouting facts about evolution?

Originally posted by OldThinker
btw, how does one "practice" atheism...seems like an oxy-moron to OT?

How about publicly pronounce it. Is that better?

Originally posted by rubbertramp
from my research i have come to the conclusion that the majority of the founding fathers were deists, not christians.

Here's some more...

John Quincy Adams, the 6th President of the U.S., said, “I speak as a man of the world to men of the world; and I say to you, Search the Scriptures! The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life; not to be read once or twice or thrice through, and then laid aside, but to be read in small portions of one or two chapters every day, and never to be intermitted, unless by some overruling necessity.”

On September 10, 1782, Congress commissioned the printing of Bibles because of a shortage due to the Revolutionary War: “Resolved, that the U.S. in Congress assembled…recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the U.S., and hereby authorize [Robert Aitken] to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.” (Congress authorized the printing of the Scriptures!)

Christopher Columbus wrote of his trip, “There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit, because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures, a strong and clear testimony from the 44 books of the Old Testament, from the four Gospels, and from the 23 Epistles of the blessed Apostles, encouraging me continually to press forward, and without ceasing for a moment they now encourage me to make haste.”

Listen to Public Law 97-280, written as recently as October 4, 198 2: “Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the U.S. as a distinctive and blessed nation and people; Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation; Whereas many of our great national leaders—among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, and Wilson—paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country’s development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is “the rock on which our republic rests”; Whereas the history of our Nation clearly illustrates the value of voluntarily applying the teachings of Scriptures in the lives of individuals, families, and societies; Whereas the Nation now faces great challenges that will test this Nation as it has never been tested before; and Whereas that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: Now Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the U.S. of A in Congress assembled, That the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national Year of the Bible in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures." (Thomas P. O’Neill, Strom Thurmond Speaker of the House President of the Senate-Pro Tempore. Approved October 4, 1982, Ronald Reagan)

The Constitution of the State of Delaware 1776 stated: “Article XXII Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust…shall…make and subscribe to the following declaration, to wit: ‘I , do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore, I do acknowledge the holy scripture of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.’”

Ulysses S. Grant, 18th President of the U.S. stated: “I believe the Holy Scriptures, and whoso lives by them will be benefited thereby. Men may differ as to the interpretation, which is human, but the Scriptures are man’s best guide…”

Warren Gamaliel Harding, 29th President of the U.S., said, “I have always believed in the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, whereby they have become the expression to man of the Word and Will of God.”

Rutherford Birchard Hayes, the 19th President of the U.S., declared, “I am a firm believer in the Divine teachings, perfect example, and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe also in the Holy Scriptures as the revealed Word of God to the world for its enlightenment and salvation.”

www.inspire21.com...

Just in case you missed it and in the sense of fairness and transparency:

Originally posted by jokei
I'd hate to think you're deliberately obfuscating your stance on "religion" god whatever, so I think for the sake of the argument you should clearly state what your viewpoint on Christ, Jehovah, Satan or whatever you consider to be the prime-mover in creation is...

I know you're smart enough to understand what I'm getting at and I didn't want to try to list all the religious/deities/etc/etc, so please just be honest and forthright.

[edit on 6/8/1010 by jokei]

Originally posted by theuhstuf
Absolutely ridiculous claims! This world would have been much better off if NO religion ever formed.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by theuhstuf]

I agree, do you realize Jesus said that first?

more

The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606) We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking: 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”


John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

www.eadshome.com...

[edit on 6-8-2010 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


cool a response. and, yes i do like quotes, i think they tell a lot.

and, as you pointed out in your quotes, and i in mine, i think many of the founding fathers sat on both sides of the fence concerning this issue.
even in this one you provided.

John Adams who said: “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.” [on June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

he also said this.

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - letter to John Taylor

in other words, yes, ideas were used in the building of this nation, especially the 10 commandments, which i see as common law, not just a christian teaching.
who would argue with,'thou shalt not murder'?

it just upsets me when people say the founding fathers were interested in building a 'cristian nation.'
i think the truth is that they were building a nation for every one. ruled by simple and basic humanity.
the 'christian nation argument drives me nuts'.
i'm a jew, am i welcome or should i leave?

reply to post by rubbertramp


I've found many one sided ones here...

www.eadshome.com...

What do you think of them?

Originally posted by rubbertramp
......it just upsets me when people say the founding fathers were interested in building a 'christian nation.'

I guess the definition of "christain" has been debated a looong time...

I think the OP's point is yes, many were Chrisitans and the system they put in place was to allow ALL types of belief or not-belief...Pretty cool I think..

This thread is sad, christianity never gave anyone anything. It only stipos you of logic and reasoning and make you think lies and banish your fellow man. You should thank the gov and founding fathers for embracing ur type. If they did not give you the right many would rather kill your type to keep the virus from spreading further.


Just so you know, I do beleive in GOD but I also know anyhting controlled my men are corrupt.

reply to post by OldThinker


like i said, i think many of the founders struggled with a lot of these notions.
i think they were raised to believe in certain ways, and expanded their horizons, looking at other aspects of religion and deism, and atheism.
i think they decided on a country that would be free for all, based on a combination of beliefs.
most don't even realize the f.f. even took their fellow muslims into consideration. they used the term 'mussleman' if interested in a search.
a few more quotes.

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." See Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.) "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.) Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789) "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787) "When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.) "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.) "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.) "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).) "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.) Also see Treaty of Tripoli "As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry "That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)

Originally posted by robbinsj
This thread is sad, christianity never gave anyone anything....

Just so you know, I do beleive in GOD but I also know anyhting controlled my men are corrupt.

Point 1: Sorry you feel that way, here's a lil info to disprove your point:

www.faithfacts.org...

Point 2: Believe in God? So does Satan my friend...

Hooray more trolling by christians to try to get atheists to respond.
I sure love this forum.

reply to post by rubbertramp


Thanks...

Gotta run to do the "honey-do" list....I'll check back later...