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NASA Ringmakers of Saturn UFOs 2010 *VIDEO*
page: 4share:
reply to post by MrsBlonde
Well let me break the theory that it's a ship.
That theory has a larger mass than Earth. Something that big had to get here form out there. Meaning it can affect its mass and go FTL.
That requires either photon or mass based gravity fields.
That would mean it can pack a freaking huge punch to space time.
Now. Do you know what a Bigger-than-Earth starship with immense mass does when it turns or even attempts to go near a gas giant?
....
it cracks in half.
Space ships need to be small. Or their mass causes problems. There is no reason to make ships that big if you have that technology.
Well let me break the theory that it's a ship.
That theory has a larger mass than Earth. Something that big had to get here form out there. Meaning it can affect its mass and go FTL.
That requires either photon or mass based gravity fields.
That would mean it can pack a freaking huge punch to space time.
Now. Do you know what a Bigger-than-Earth starship with immense mass does when it turns or even attempts to go near a gas giant?
....
it cracks in half.
Space ships need to be small. Or their mass causes problems. There is no reason to make ships that big if you have that technology.
reply to post by Gorman91
Home astronomy is still extremely limited.
Gravity simulators for children?
Got any links to this technology, because science currently hasn't a clue how gravity works. That is reality.
As far as cropped pictures, typically they are taken so they overlap, so that things aren't strangely chopped off, and those tend to be special situation pictures.
Objects in space require a minimum mass in order to remain in orbit, this information is available if you do some research. Other planets do have rings, but why one planet and not another? Why Saturn and Uranus, but not Jupiter and Neptune considering that Jupiter and Neptune are closer to asteroid belts?
NOTE - I am not claiming god did it or aliens did it.
Stop being so uptight, have a drink, and learn to accept the possibility that there is very little mankind actually knows about this big world we live in.
The pictures you provide do not show what you claim.
www.planetary.org...
Home astronomy is still extremely limited.
Gravity simulators for children?
Got any links to this technology, because science currently hasn't a clue how gravity works. That is reality.
As far as cropped pictures, typically they are taken so they overlap, so that things aren't strangely chopped off, and those tend to be special situation pictures.
Objects in space require a minimum mass in order to remain in orbit, this information is available if you do some research. Other planets do have rings, but why one planet and not another? Why Saturn and Uranus, but not Jupiter and Neptune considering that Jupiter and Neptune are closer to asteroid belts?
NOTE - I am not claiming god did it or aliens did it.
Stop being so uptight, have a drink, and learn to accept the possibility that there is very little mankind actually knows about this big world we live in.
The pictures you provide do not show what you claim.
www.planetary.org...
reply to post by poet1b
Th pictures you linked are not from Voyager 1.
The ones I did, were, including the book cover.
These pictures were all cropped. Only one does not have chopped of parts. The rest I posted do, including the original posted on.
This is a long time ago. Cropping was not perfect. Hell, it is not today. Have you seen Titan? mercury?
www.stsci.edu...
www.jpl.nasa.gov...
Also, all the gas giants have rings. Every one of them,. They are in different density.
Why? Spin.
Saturn and Jupiter spin and orbit at different rates. This affects rings.
Home astronomy is not limited:
www.skythisweek.com...
Also. We know how gravity works. Thing has mass. Mass attracts other mass. Other mass fall to big mass. That's how gravity works. Links to the technology from before. Here they are again.
www.spore.com...
I am not being uptight. I am merely telling you why you are wrong.
Now. I am going on celestia. it's a program that lets you be anywhere in the universe at any point in time. You can download it and use it right now if you'd like to back me up. On this program, it is clear that cropping occurred. I am reading the comparison image right now. BRB
EDIT
You'll find the cut where the ring is contains a star that is actually further away in reality.
We can do anything with technology these days, eh?
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Gorman91]
Th pictures you linked are not from Voyager 1.
The ones I did, were, including the book cover.
These pictures were all cropped. Only one does not have chopped of parts. The rest I posted do, including the original posted on.
This is a long time ago. Cropping was not perfect. Hell, it is not today. Have you seen Titan? mercury?
www.stsci.edu...
www.jpl.nasa.gov...
Also, all the gas giants have rings. Every one of them,. They are in different density.
Why? Spin.
Saturn and Jupiter spin and orbit at different rates. This affects rings.
Home astronomy is not limited:
www.skythisweek.com...
Also. We know how gravity works. Thing has mass. Mass attracts other mass. Other mass fall to big mass. That's how gravity works. Links to the technology from before. Here they are again.
www.spore.com...
I am not being uptight. I am merely telling you why you are wrong.
Now. I am going on celestia. it's a program that lets you be anywhere in the universe at any point in time. You can download it and use it right now if you'd like to back me up. On this program, it is clear that cropping occurred. I am reading the comparison image right now. BRB
EDIT
You'll find the cut where the ring is contains a star that is actually further away in reality.
We can do anything with technology these days, eh?
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Gorman91]
Originally posted by undo
I have a few questions:
1) why would they need a TIMED exposure of the rings? why not just snap the photo like they normally do? wouldn't they want to see the detail of the rings, not the blur of the rings? this timed thing is perplexing.
2) if they did a timed exposure, why didn't they compensate for the blur, and show us the actual moons rather than the blurs created by the timed exposure? i mean they normally do that. it doesn't make sense.
Ok, here's your answer:
Cassini's cameras have 63 different exposure settings, from 5 milliseconds to 20 minutes. Scientists planning an observation must choose the exposure for each image taken. It's difficult to guess what they were planning to see in these particular images and thus the time of exposure/time lapse.
Images can be purposely overexposed for example if the scientist is looking for something dim in intensity as a result of which the bright object may become overexposed.
Also, Optical Navigation personnel often overexpose images to see where Cassini is relative to Saturn and its moons because they need to see where these moons are in relation to the stars in the background sky.
So if you have a 20 minute, time lapse exposure, a lot of those moons would look like bright cylindrical objects!
In October 1999, Dr Bergrun agreed to be interviewed by MUFON´s Don Ecker regarding his conclusion that 'Huge Artificial Machines' are
operating in our solar system. Sis is what he had to say:
Don Ecker (DFE): Your book, The Ringmakers of Saturn, was not an easy read, nor was it easy to find. But for someone like me, interested in the anomalies of
the solar system in relation to UFOs, it's an invaluable tool.
Norman Bergrun (NB): Correct. It's important to really take your time and go through it. If you're looking for entertainment, this is not the book to have.
DFE: During World War II, you were working for the huge American defence firm McDonnell Douglas.
NB: I started working there after college. Then I went up to Ames Lab at Moffitt Field, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA), which was the precursor to NASA. From there I went to Lockheed. I was a research scientist at Ames, flying around in clouds, doing icing research work. I've seen a lot of weather. I built an electromagnetic wind tunnel, which later led into the work I did on my book. At Lockheed I was responsible for flight-test analysis of the Polaris missile system.
DFE: The military was doing a lot of testing with missile systems back then, incorporating what they'd learned from the captured German V-2 rockets.
NB: On the Polaris project, we had a fellow named Willy Fiedler, who was a key designer of the missile. He worked on the V-2 during the war. Hitler visited Peenemunde on a Monday and wanted rockets hitting England by the following week, or else. Willy came up with a control system that had to be manually operated, so he ended up flying in one of those things.
DFE: A manned flight. He had gauges on board and was able to see all the forces at work, and from that he was able to come up with an automated system.
DFE: You're obviously well grounded in scientific principle and theory.
NB: I've had a pretty good workout.
DFE: Most mainstream scientists will not discuss the subject of UFOs in public, though privately they admit there's something to it. But they're worried about their careers and reputations.
NB: Correct. At Stanford, if you don't have tenure and you mention this subject, you're out.
DFE: Isn't that academic fascism?
NB: It sure is.
DFE: Isn't science supposedly to study the unexplained, not explain the unstudied?
NB: Philosophically, that's correct. But in real life, no. There's a party line out there, and they're not about to have it fractured.
DFE: Did you ever have an interest in the subject of UFOs, before you began researching the Voyager photographs?
NB: When I was at Lockheed, we had classified work to do. Behind closed doors, we used to look at and discuss a lot of different things, one of which was the possibility of UFOs. We kicked the subject around for quite a while and decided that it didn't seem possible, based on the physics we knew then. My book says there's now some different physics at work out there, something that's capable of immense power. That
wasn't a consideration back then.
I was once vacationing near Monterey Bay, California, in September 1971. Every day a US Navy helicopter would fly along the same route nearby. One day around noon, I saw a shimmering bright light in the same area. I thought it was another Navy helicopter travelling the usual route. But it seemed to hover at a distance and it took on motions that made me realize it was no helicopter. I grabbed some binoculars and a camera and got a good look at it. It was one of those cylindrical objects, and it performed for me.
I could see azure-blue flames at each end, which looked to me like an airplane's engine cowl; it was aerodynamically superb. Streamers came out lengthwise from this thing and joined together like a wishbone. The streamers were light yellow-green and tapered. They looked like what physicists call a 'pinched plasma'. There was a projection on one side that looked like a wing or a cross, with another streamer, something like a flame, surrounding an interior black
bar, ending in a rectangular device.
DFE: What was the duration of your sighting?
NB: Not more than a minute.
DFE: And your reaction to the whole experience?
NB: Very straightforward. I had been around rockets and knew how you manipulated forces to get them to work. It was obvious to me that this thing was a space ship. I was privy to everything the United States had, and this was not ours. There was a fellow over at Stanford who, at the time, collected these various sightings reports and shared them with his colleagues. I told them what I had seen. I also told my congressman. I had worked on one of his steering committees before, so he and I knew each other well. He wasn't a believer, but he believed what I reported because he knew I didn't make things like that up.
That's where things stood until I saw the Voyager 1 and 2 encounter photos with Saturn. I spent a lot of time studying the returns from both missions. The statements the Voyager scientists were making didn't correlate at all with what I was seeing. For instance, during Voyager 1, the spokesman said that the space between the A and B rings - the Cassini Division - was pure space.
On the Voyager 2 photos, that space was filled up. It was obvious to me the spokesman was fumbling with his script, not knowing what to say about this because it was against the party line. I've had enough experience in the business to know when somebody doesn't know what they're talking about. At that point I decided that this was fair game for analysis. That's when I made up my mind to really get into it.
DFE: Do you believe the scientists are unaware of all this or that they've been ordered not to talk about it?
NB: I can tell you how things work at a government lab. During the icing experiments I conducted while at NACA (forerunner of NASA), officials from the airplane companies would come in and want to know specific factors and numbers involved so they could design heating systems to overcome those conditions. You'd have to be very careful in what you told them because you didn't want to give them the wrong numbers since it would cost a lot of money to fix any mistakes. So you would put them off, saying "we're not talking about that yet". That was our policy. The same thing has happened with this material. The scientists have chosen not to talk about it. I believe they're aware of these anomalies but are no closer to explaining them now than they were back then.
DFE: What caused you to look at these Voyager photographs in the first place?
NB: Scientific curiosity based on my previous experiences. Around 1981, I bought all the
transparencies and slides that were publicly available and started going through them. I found this one plate - plate number three, NASA SP-451, Voyager's Pictures of Saturn - and I looked at it under a microscope, along with comparison photos from Voyager 2. You couldn't trace the rings all the way around Saturn. On plate five, for example, showing the Cassini Division, it's quite obvious there's nothing much to speak off between the rings except some curious streamers and 'exhaust'. And the 'A' ring looks awfully narrow to me. It should measure out to be three to four times the width of the Cassini Division, but it's barely more than one Cassini Division length. The 'A' ring is not all there, radially - why is that? Because there's something [else] there - an artifact of some sort that's 'making' the ring. And that's how my book got its title, The Ringmakers of Saturn.
DFE: What was the original size of the photograph you studied?
NB: A 35mm transparency.
DFE: And there was no good NASA explanation for what you were seeing on the original plate, NASA SP-451?
NB: That's right. The only official comment on this plate and the comparison photos was that the Voyager 2 rings look brighter than the Voyager 1 rings.
DFE: Did you bring your analysis to your associates at NASA?
NB: Oh, yes. A former associate of mine at Lockheed had later gone to work at Ames and had become chief scientist there. I went to see him and showed him what I had found. His explanation was that it looked like an "energy roll". Remembering my sighting experience - in which I had seen 'exhaust' like this before I deferred my judgement out of respect to him. He certainly didn't try to talk me down, rather he referred me to a specialist.
The specialist did try to talk me down. He said that on plate five, the picture had been "cut off", and that's why I couldn't trace the ring. In rebuttal, I pointed out
the light source - the blue dot - on the photo. The same back and forth happened on all the photographs I showed him. It was the kind of response I expected. I showed him the last photo and by then he just gave up. He said this was something "we just don't talk about".
I told him that this was the first statement he had made all day that made any sense. Again, having worked at Ames before and being in a similar position myself, I understood his position completely.
DFE: This, in effect, was an admission that certain individuals within NASA know that somebody is out there?
NB: That's true.
DFE: There are stories circulating now on the Internet that, from the mid-1970s to the present, the National Security Agency has been launching highly secret deep space probes within our solar system. What do you know about this?
NB: I worked in government during that time, so it's a period I know something about. I had a high security clearance then and was on top of all that stuff. To my knowledge, we did not have any deep space probes flying at that juncture.
DFE: How do you view NASA today?
NB: I understand that Dan Goldin (NASA Administrator) had the goal of taking this country to Mars. Everything else be damned, including the facts. He seems to have squandered any other opportunity. That bugs me.
DFE: Goldin took over NASA during the Bush administration, coming over from TRW [ the American defence contractor Thompson, Ramo, Woolridge] . When the Clinton administration took over, Goldin was the only appointee who was kept on. Regardless of all the failures that have occurred - especially with regard to Mars - he's stayed on. If this had happened in private industry, would heads have rolled by now?
NB: That's not what people get fired for. They get fired for going against the party line.
DFE: You know the joke, that NASA stands for Never A Straight Answer?
NB: They're very good at coming up with stories, or attacking those asking the questions. I meet with NASA types regularly, and they're well practiced in speaking 'Washington-ese'.
DFE: The objects you claim to see in the rings of Saturn are immense. Have you seen the photographs taken during the Russian's Phobos II mission to Mars, of the huge object that was supposed to have destroyed the probe?
NB: Yes. The size of that thing was like 25 kilometres (15.5 miles) long. That's about the size of an object I found near Miranda (one of Saturn's moons), and it fits perfectly with some other things I know. I've analyzed the Phobos picture and have come up with a different answer from the Russians.
DFE: This suggests that there are operational bases in our solar system.
NB: I think that's true, especially with regard to Saturn. I consider its rings to be a polluted parking lot. I can't tell you exactly what's going on, but I do know that Saturn is harboring a number of 'units'. There's evidence in the rings of Jupiter, too.
DFE: When you discovered the Saturn photograph anomalies and became convinced there was intelligence behind them, it must have been a fearful discovery. Did you approach anyone else with your findings?
NB: No. I made my decision early on how I was going to handle it. Instead of looking to convince government entities - which from experience I knew wouldn't work - I decided first to try to get an American publisher for my book. Of course, no one would touch it. I had a contact in the United Kingdom, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that this would be the ideal way to deal with it. The UK is always bugging the US on everything and I was sure they would take the book and they did. As a consequence, the information has been spread all over Europe. I've also talked about the book quite a bit on radio programmes here in the States. It's been quite awhile since the book came out, and I've been doing other research.
DFE: Have you considered updating the book?
NB: I have a lot of new material. I've wanted to do a follow-up but have hesitated since people seem more interested in what's going on closer to home. Saturn is so far away. That's why, instead, I wrote a book about the Moon called Earth's Moon: Why We Never Returned. I have a draft completed.
DFE: That should be extremely interesting. Most people look up at the Moon and don't give it a second thought. They've been conditioned to think it's an airless, lifeless body. Yet it seems apparent that the Moon is also an operational base.
NB: It's quite evident there's life there a lot of activity.
DFE: If it's true, as some suggest, that an alien intelligence has been here on Earth longer than recorded history, then the accounts of early humans interacting with 'gods' may have a basis in reality.
NB: Yes. But even the best accounts and research can't prove it. I'm interested in data that's irrefutable and indisputable; this is where it takes you, this is what it tells you, pay attention!
DFE: Do you ever think the admission that we are not
alone in the Universe will come through official channels, especially with the national security operation that's been in effect?
NB: Yes, if you push hard enough, if you can back these guys into a corner. You have to be relentless and keep pushing. You have to educate the constituents of the elected officials so they can go in and beat on their desks. That's the way it's got to be done. I have faith in some government people; some of them can help. But we need to provide them with the right material and we have to say it in the right way. We're not going to make headway if we start by criticizing the heck out of them, which is the way some people like to play the game. You have to know the right words to say.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Huginn]
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Huginn]
Don Ecker (DFE): Your book, The Ringmakers of Saturn, was not an easy read, nor was it easy to find. But for someone like me, interested in the anomalies of
the solar system in relation to UFOs, it's an invaluable tool.
Norman Bergrun (NB): Correct. It's important to really take your time and go through it. If you're looking for entertainment, this is not the book to have.
DFE: During World War II, you were working for the huge American defence firm McDonnell Douglas.
NB: I started working there after college. Then I went up to Ames Lab at Moffitt Field, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA), which was the precursor to NASA. From there I went to Lockheed. I was a research scientist at Ames, flying around in clouds, doing icing research work. I've seen a lot of weather. I built an electromagnetic wind tunnel, which later led into the work I did on my book. At Lockheed I was responsible for flight-test analysis of the Polaris missile system.
DFE: The military was doing a lot of testing with missile systems back then, incorporating what they'd learned from the captured German V-2 rockets.
NB: On the Polaris project, we had a fellow named Willy Fiedler, who was a key designer of the missile. He worked on the V-2 during the war. Hitler visited Peenemunde on a Monday and wanted rockets hitting England by the following week, or else. Willy came up with a control system that had to be manually operated, so he ended up flying in one of those things.
DFE: A manned flight. He had gauges on board and was able to see all the forces at work, and from that he was able to come up with an automated system.
DFE: You're obviously well grounded in scientific principle and theory.
NB: I've had a pretty good workout.
DFE: Most mainstream scientists will not discuss the subject of UFOs in public, though privately they admit there's something to it. But they're worried about their careers and reputations.
NB: Correct. At Stanford, if you don't have tenure and you mention this subject, you're out.
DFE: Isn't that academic fascism?
NB: It sure is.
DFE: Isn't science supposedly to study the unexplained, not explain the unstudied?
NB: Philosophically, that's correct. But in real life, no. There's a party line out there, and they're not about to have it fractured.
DFE: Did you ever have an interest in the subject of UFOs, before you began researching the Voyager photographs?
NB: When I was at Lockheed, we had classified work to do. Behind closed doors, we used to look at and discuss a lot of different things, one of which was the possibility of UFOs. We kicked the subject around for quite a while and decided that it didn't seem possible, based on the physics we knew then. My book says there's now some different physics at work out there, something that's capable of immense power. That
wasn't a consideration back then.
I was once vacationing near Monterey Bay, California, in September 1971. Every day a US Navy helicopter would fly along the same route nearby. One day around noon, I saw a shimmering bright light in the same area. I thought it was another Navy helicopter travelling the usual route. But it seemed to hover at a distance and it took on motions that made me realize it was no helicopter. I grabbed some binoculars and a camera and got a good look at it. It was one of those cylindrical objects, and it performed for me.
I could see azure-blue flames at each end, which looked to me like an airplane's engine cowl; it was aerodynamically superb. Streamers came out lengthwise from this thing and joined together like a wishbone. The streamers were light yellow-green and tapered. They looked like what physicists call a 'pinched plasma'. There was a projection on one side that looked like a wing or a cross, with another streamer, something like a flame, surrounding an interior black
bar, ending in a rectangular device.
DFE: What was the duration of your sighting?
NB: Not more than a minute.
DFE: And your reaction to the whole experience?
NB: Very straightforward. I had been around rockets and knew how you manipulated forces to get them to work. It was obvious to me that this thing was a space ship. I was privy to everything the United States had, and this was not ours. There was a fellow over at Stanford who, at the time, collected these various sightings reports and shared them with his colleagues. I told them what I had seen. I also told my congressman. I had worked on one of his steering committees before, so he and I knew each other well. He wasn't a believer, but he believed what I reported because he knew I didn't make things like that up.
That's where things stood until I saw the Voyager 1 and 2 encounter photos with Saturn. I spent a lot of time studying the returns from both missions. The statements the Voyager scientists were making didn't correlate at all with what I was seeing. For instance, during Voyager 1, the spokesman said that the space between the A and B rings - the Cassini Division - was pure space.
On the Voyager 2 photos, that space was filled up. It was obvious to me the spokesman was fumbling with his script, not knowing what to say about this because it was against the party line. I've had enough experience in the business to know when somebody doesn't know what they're talking about. At that point I decided that this was fair game for analysis. That's when I made up my mind to really get into it.
DFE: Do you believe the scientists are unaware of all this or that they've been ordered not to talk about it?
NB: I can tell you how things work at a government lab. During the icing experiments I conducted while at NACA (forerunner of NASA), officials from the airplane companies would come in and want to know specific factors and numbers involved so they could design heating systems to overcome those conditions. You'd have to be very careful in what you told them because you didn't want to give them the wrong numbers since it would cost a lot of money to fix any mistakes. So you would put them off, saying "we're not talking about that yet". That was our policy. The same thing has happened with this material. The scientists have chosen not to talk about it. I believe they're aware of these anomalies but are no closer to explaining them now than they were back then.
DFE: What caused you to look at these Voyager photographs in the first place?
NB: Scientific curiosity based on my previous experiences. Around 1981, I bought all the
transparencies and slides that were publicly available and started going through them. I found this one plate - plate number three, NASA SP-451, Voyager's Pictures of Saturn - and I looked at it under a microscope, along with comparison photos from Voyager 2. You couldn't trace the rings all the way around Saturn. On plate five, for example, showing the Cassini Division, it's quite obvious there's nothing much to speak off between the rings except some curious streamers and 'exhaust'. And the 'A' ring looks awfully narrow to me. It should measure out to be three to four times the width of the Cassini Division, but it's barely more than one Cassini Division length. The 'A' ring is not all there, radially - why is that? Because there's something [else] there - an artifact of some sort that's 'making' the ring. And that's how my book got its title, The Ringmakers of Saturn.
DFE: What was the original size of the photograph you studied?
NB: A 35mm transparency.
DFE: And there was no good NASA explanation for what you were seeing on the original plate, NASA SP-451?
NB: That's right. The only official comment on this plate and the comparison photos was that the Voyager 2 rings look brighter than the Voyager 1 rings.
DFE: Did you bring your analysis to your associates at NASA?
NB: Oh, yes. A former associate of mine at Lockheed had later gone to work at Ames and had become chief scientist there. I went to see him and showed him what I had found. His explanation was that it looked like an "energy roll". Remembering my sighting experience - in which I had seen 'exhaust' like this before I deferred my judgement out of respect to him. He certainly didn't try to talk me down, rather he referred me to a specialist.
The specialist did try to talk me down. He said that on plate five, the picture had been "cut off", and that's why I couldn't trace the ring. In rebuttal, I pointed out
the light source - the blue dot - on the photo. The same back and forth happened on all the photographs I showed him. It was the kind of response I expected. I showed him the last photo and by then he just gave up. He said this was something "we just don't talk about".
I told him that this was the first statement he had made all day that made any sense. Again, having worked at Ames before and being in a similar position myself, I understood his position completely.
DFE: This, in effect, was an admission that certain individuals within NASA know that somebody is out there?
NB: That's true.
DFE: There are stories circulating now on the Internet that, from the mid-1970s to the present, the National Security Agency has been launching highly secret deep space probes within our solar system. What do you know about this?
NB: I worked in government during that time, so it's a period I know something about. I had a high security clearance then and was on top of all that stuff. To my knowledge, we did not have any deep space probes flying at that juncture.
DFE: How do you view NASA today?
NB: I understand that Dan Goldin (NASA Administrator) had the goal of taking this country to Mars. Everything else be damned, including the facts. He seems to have squandered any other opportunity. That bugs me.
DFE: Goldin took over NASA during the Bush administration, coming over from TRW [ the American defence contractor Thompson, Ramo, Woolridge] . When the Clinton administration took over, Goldin was the only appointee who was kept on. Regardless of all the failures that have occurred - especially with regard to Mars - he's stayed on. If this had happened in private industry, would heads have rolled by now?
NB: That's not what people get fired for. They get fired for going against the party line.
DFE: You know the joke, that NASA stands for Never A Straight Answer?
NB: They're very good at coming up with stories, or attacking those asking the questions. I meet with NASA types regularly, and they're well practiced in speaking 'Washington-ese'.
DFE: The objects you claim to see in the rings of Saturn are immense. Have you seen the photographs taken during the Russian's Phobos II mission to Mars, of the huge object that was supposed to have destroyed the probe?
NB: Yes. The size of that thing was like 25 kilometres (15.5 miles) long. That's about the size of an object I found near Miranda (one of Saturn's moons), and it fits perfectly with some other things I know. I've analyzed the Phobos picture and have come up with a different answer from the Russians.
DFE: This suggests that there are operational bases in our solar system.
NB: I think that's true, especially with regard to Saturn. I consider its rings to be a polluted parking lot. I can't tell you exactly what's going on, but I do know that Saturn is harboring a number of 'units'. There's evidence in the rings of Jupiter, too.
DFE: When you discovered the Saturn photograph anomalies and became convinced there was intelligence behind them, it must have been a fearful discovery. Did you approach anyone else with your findings?
NB: No. I made my decision early on how I was going to handle it. Instead of looking to convince government entities - which from experience I knew wouldn't work - I decided first to try to get an American publisher for my book. Of course, no one would touch it. I had a contact in the United Kingdom, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that this would be the ideal way to deal with it. The UK is always bugging the US on everything and I was sure they would take the book and they did. As a consequence, the information has been spread all over Europe. I've also talked about the book quite a bit on radio programmes here in the States. It's been quite awhile since the book came out, and I've been doing other research.
DFE: Have you considered updating the book?
NB: I have a lot of new material. I've wanted to do a follow-up but have hesitated since people seem more interested in what's going on closer to home. Saturn is so far away. That's why, instead, I wrote a book about the Moon called Earth's Moon: Why We Never Returned. I have a draft completed.
DFE: That should be extremely interesting. Most people look up at the Moon and don't give it a second thought. They've been conditioned to think it's an airless, lifeless body. Yet it seems apparent that the Moon is also an operational base.
NB: It's quite evident there's life there a lot of activity.
DFE: If it's true, as some suggest, that an alien intelligence has been here on Earth longer than recorded history, then the accounts of early humans interacting with 'gods' may have a basis in reality.
NB: Yes. But even the best accounts and research can't prove it. I'm interested in data that's irrefutable and indisputable; this is where it takes you, this is what it tells you, pay attention!
DFE: Do you ever think the admission that we are not
alone in the Universe will come through official channels, especially with the national security operation that's been in effect?
NB: Yes, if you push hard enough, if you can back these guys into a corner. You have to be relentless and keep pushing. You have to educate the constituents of the elected officials so they can go in and beat on their desks. That's the way it's got to be done. I have faith in some government people; some of them can help. But we need to provide them with the right material and we have to say it in the right way. We're not going to make headway if we start by criticizing the heck out of them, which is the way some people like to play the game. You have to know the right words to say.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Huginn]
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Huginn]
reply to post by Huginn
Posts like this are fantastic! Thank you for bringing this informative and insightful interview with NB. Sensational!
Thanks for all the kind words and I'll keep 'em coming!
Posts like this are fantastic! Thank you for bringing this informative and insightful interview with NB. Sensational!
Thanks for all the kind words and I'll keep 'em coming!
reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow
Great stuff!!
Colour me interested! I've never really looked into Saturn annomales before I waws always focused on Mars and Lunar types.
Keep up the great work guys!
Great stuff!!
Colour me interested! I've never really looked into Saturn annomales before I waws always focused on Mars and Lunar types.
Keep up the great work guys!
Originally posted by Gorman91
That theory has a larger mass than Earth. Something that big had to get here form out there. Meaning it can affect its mass and go FTL.
Mass is only affected if an object nears or goes FTL. The faster an object moves, the more massive it becomes, approaching infinite according to Einstein's E=MC squared. And getting here from there doesn't mean it has to go FTL!
That requires either photon or mass based gravity fields.
You said, 'photon based gravity field'? Now this just flew over my cuckoo! Photons have zero mass. So how do they produce gravity? I guess I need to get back to the drawing board to learn these new concepts in physics!
And by the way, were you talking of a gravitational field or a magnetic field produced by those objects? (After all, Norman Burgrun or whoever, called them ‘Electro Magnetic Vehicles’). There is no reason why a magnetic field should behave like gravity. Unlike gravity, magnetic force pushes sideways, perpendicular to the field direction. Gravitational force is just gravitational field multiplied by the mass being pushed or pulled.
That would mean it can pack a freaking huge punch to space time.
No, it doesn't unless it's traveling FTL. And that may not be the case at all!
Now. Do you know what a Bigger-than-Earth starship with immense mass does when it turns or even attempts to go near a gas giant?
it cracks in half.
No I don't! And neither do you nor anyone else. Don't forget that if these are ET space ships that have traveled across the galaxy, their technology would be thousands if not millions of years ahead of ours. And that means they could well have the means of controlling gravity. And no, they won’t crack in half because ETs ain’t idiots!! They know what the heck they’re doing!!
You'd say how can they do this? Oh yes, they could. Have you read any of the scientific research papers archived in LANL (Los Alamos National Laboratory) related to Gravity Shielding? I suggest you do. You'd then realise to what levels our science has progressed. Yes, gravity shielding of spacecraft to nullify the effects of gravity as well as personnel aboard such craft. In other words, ‘artificial gravity’. Like Star Trek. And it's not fiction any more! If we've got the theory, they’re most likely using the technology as a matter of course!
Space ships need to be small. Or their mass causes problems. There is no reason to make ships that big if you have that technology.
Reason? And what do you know about ET reasoning and logic?
By the way, though it’s most likely that there are advanced civilizations in this galaxy, I don't believe that these are ET craft in Saturn's rings as I've brought out earlier. That would be quite a leap of faith! These are just photographic effects - exposures/shutter speeds.
QED!
[edit on 28-6-2010 by OrionHunterX]
reply to post by OrionHunterX
Well logic is universal because it is common sense. Even the most alien of aliens has to obey universal reason in order to survive. So we can look at our selves and know what they would think.
Now let me explain the technology, because it is actually above most peoples thoughts. Was for me too until I looked it up.
A light based gravity field, aka, a light based warp field, is based off the fact that photons bend space time better than mass. Yes, that's true.
E= MC^2. For any given mass, the same volume of energy is more powerful. Light punches space time out of the arena.
The usage of light to bend space time and generate an ergopshere around you is very much so possible. An ergosphere is a region of space time around you that is going at a relativity faster than you. IE, if you through a baseball into an ergosphere, if the ergosphere was strong enough, it would jump between its entrance and exit, not acceleration to its own relativity. It's still going the same velocity. But because space time is accelerated, it is traveling faster to your own time.
Thus an ergosphere would allow a ship to ignore the speed of light all together. A ship encased in an ergopshere that is 10X the speed of your own relativity would be able to travel 10X the speed of light with the energy required to travel 1X the speed of light.
Its not perpetual motion. it's essentially a time machine. Warp engines ARE time machines.
Mass-based warp fields are based of gravity spheres and cylinders. basically, Imagine you have a cylinder. And it is attacked the the north and south of a hollow cylinder, within the cylinder. Wire it up so that the cylinders are extremely negatively charged. Pump negativity charged mass into the hollow donut space between cylinders. No cool it down to just a few millionths of a fraction above absolute zero. The mass is already compressed due to negative-negative repulsion. Temperature affects volume, which affect density. Eventually you compress it into a superfluid, which is basically a big molecule, where individual molecules have come so close that they have lost their identities and begin to behave like a flock or something, acting as a single large macro molecule.
Now we have a borderline black hole. Lots of gravity. Make a lot of these so you make a ring of the cylinders around your ship. Now you have a donut shaped almost black hole.
Spin each cylinder. Spin it REALLY fast. Eventually it generates an ergosphere. And you get the same as the light based version.
Now, because temperature affects volume and that affects density, you CAN fake your own mass using ergospheres and temperature regulation,. You can have the mass of a space shuttle, but act like you have the mass of a gas giant.
Thus, it i unwise to use this technology near planets. You may irrefutably damage their orbits.
This technology that I described is perfectly capable of being made today. it costs trillions though. So it won't be built until 2080s. But because I know about it, probably a few governments have experimented already on it.
As to ship size, it is a HELLUVA lot easier to do this with small ships than big ones that would crack in half if anything went wrong.
Of course, if you ave this sort of technology, you can essentially melt diamonds into hulls for ships. via extreme pressure.
Well. That's that. And ye, I doubt these are alien ships. What with gas giants being a dime a dozen, there's no point to Saturn being special.
Well logic is universal because it is common sense. Even the most alien of aliens has to obey universal reason in order to survive. So we can look at our selves and know what they would think.
Now let me explain the technology, because it is actually above most peoples thoughts. Was for me too until I looked it up.
A light based gravity field, aka, a light based warp field, is based off the fact that photons bend space time better than mass. Yes, that's true.
E= MC^2. For any given mass, the same volume of energy is more powerful. Light punches space time out of the arena.
The usage of light to bend space time and generate an ergopshere around you is very much so possible. An ergosphere is a region of space time around you that is going at a relativity faster than you. IE, if you through a baseball into an ergosphere, if the ergosphere was strong enough, it would jump between its entrance and exit, not acceleration to its own relativity. It's still going the same velocity. But because space time is accelerated, it is traveling faster to your own time.
Thus an ergosphere would allow a ship to ignore the speed of light all together. A ship encased in an ergopshere that is 10X the speed of your own relativity would be able to travel 10X the speed of light with the energy required to travel 1X the speed of light.
Its not perpetual motion. it's essentially a time machine. Warp engines ARE time machines.
Mass-based warp fields are based of gravity spheres and cylinders. basically, Imagine you have a cylinder. And it is attacked the the north and south of a hollow cylinder, within the cylinder. Wire it up so that the cylinders are extremely negatively charged. Pump negativity charged mass into the hollow donut space between cylinders. No cool it down to just a few millionths of a fraction above absolute zero. The mass is already compressed due to negative-negative repulsion. Temperature affects volume, which affect density. Eventually you compress it into a superfluid, which is basically a big molecule, where individual molecules have come so close that they have lost their identities and begin to behave like a flock or something, acting as a single large macro molecule.
Now we have a borderline black hole. Lots of gravity. Make a lot of these so you make a ring of the cylinders around your ship. Now you have a donut shaped almost black hole.
Spin each cylinder. Spin it REALLY fast. Eventually it generates an ergosphere. And you get the same as the light based version.
Now, because temperature affects volume and that affects density, you CAN fake your own mass using ergospheres and temperature regulation,. You can have the mass of a space shuttle, but act like you have the mass of a gas giant.
Thus, it i unwise to use this technology near planets. You may irrefutably damage their orbits.
This technology that I described is perfectly capable of being made today. it costs trillions though. So it won't be built until 2080s. But because I know about it, probably a few governments have experimented already on it.
As to ship size, it is a HELLUVA lot easier to do this with small ships than big ones that would crack in half if anything went wrong.
Of course, if you ave this sort of technology, you can essentially melt diamonds into hulls for ships. via extreme pressure.
Well. That's that. And ye, I doubt these are alien ships. What with gas giants being a dime a dozen, there's no point to Saturn being special.
Introduction
Dr. Norman Bergrun stunned the world in 1986 with the publication of his extremely well researched book Ringmakers of Saturn. With its release, Dr. Bergrun provided an astounding glimpse behind the veils of officialdom. And now with this new work, he further defines his original work. He identifies a new image similar to that from which he scanned the atypical ring, proving beyond doubt that the missing ring section is PHYSICALLY REAL, and that the "cutoff appearance" of the ring system is NOT THE RESULT OF CAMERA IMAGING, IMAGE PROCESSING OR CRAFT MALFUNCTION
NEW RING DATA: The Saturn NASA Voyager 1
Recently, allegations have been made to the effect that the incomplete ring system shown in the book, "Ringmakers of Saturn", is not real. In response to these allegations, another image has been located which substantiates the one presented in Ringmakers of Saturn. The identification number for this second image is NASA P23870. That a second image exists supporting the one presented in Ringmakers of Saturn shows that the event was neither spurious nor owing to a malfunction of imaging and/or image processing. Two samples of the same phenomenon takes it out of the realm of chance and places it in the repeatable category of a real, physical event.
NASA P23870 has been made into four figures, numbered 1 through 4.
Figure 1 is NASA P23870; and it compares the general appearance of Saturn as photographed during the NASA Voyager 1 and 2 missions, which were about nine months apart. A purpose of the comparison was to show that the brightness of the rings increased between the two encounters.
Figure 2 is the NASA Voyager 1 image cropped from NASA P23870. Nothing else was done photographically to obtain figure 2, other than the cropping operation. The purpose of the cropping was to obtain the image applicable to NASA Voyager 1.
Figure 3 is figure 2 with only brightness and contrast increased. No other photographic changes were made. The foregoing variables were increased just enough to enable scrutiny of the area in the vicinity of ring-system termination. When this operation was performed, figure 3 reveals that no malfunction of imaging lines is apparent and that the framing of the image is not a cause for the atypical termination of the ring system. Significantly, noticeable activity occurs just below ring-system termination (indicated by the blue color), thereby proving that there is no imaging malfunction and no framing cut-off.
Finally, figure 4 is presented. Figure 4 is obtained from figure 2 by brightening the entire ring system. By performing this operation, all of what is going on can be seen in one image. A blue arc appears connecting ring-system termination on the left-hand side with that on the right-hand side. That this can occur, indicates a flow between the two sides. The other observation is that a discontinuity of the ring system now is readily apparent as indicated by the change in colors from a yellow-green with purplish overtones (upper ring system) to blue (terminal arc of the ring system). Separating the abruptly different colors are slender, long objects (called ElectroMagnetic Vehicles, or EMVs, in Ringmakers of Saturn). These can clearly account for the presence of the blue arc. (Note: The brightened ring-system image is fairly unique. Different persons should be able to obtain similar images; but the chance of every person making them identical to one another is somewhat remote).
In figure 4, it is interesting to note that a fireball appears on the left-hand side of the ring system (this same thing also was observed and pointed out in Ringmakers of Saturn). However, no fireball appears on the right-hand side of the ring system. In Ringmakers of Saturn, this fireball was scaled to be larger than Earth's moon, indicating the presence of a huge amount of energy. The orange color of the fireball versus the absence of a fiery color on the right-hand side is an indicator that the left-hand side is at a higher temperature than the right-hand side.
Ringmakers of Saturn made out the case that the efflux from EMVs is electrical in character, indicating that electrical potentials (voltages) are present. The temperature difference between the two sides of the ring-system in figure 4 can be translated, then, to mean that a potential difference exists between the left- and right-hand sides of the ring system at the discontinuity and that, inferentially, the flow of the efflux portrayed by the blue arc is from left to right.
In conclusion, that two samples of the same event has been recorded in itself says that the event does not owe to chance, but rather is real. That activity appears which shows a completion of the ring system compounds the physical reality of the event.
Appendix Note: NASA P23870 was a 35 mm transparency scanned at 600 dpi at 200 percent with a .tif extension. The .tif extension was reformatted to a .jpg extension, and then each image was "Saved for the Web" using Photoshop 6.0.
QUESTIONS DEALING WITH THE PROCESSING OF ABOVE IMAGES
Dr. Bergrun interviewed by James Horak
JCH:
Q: It is highly significant if that illumination comprising the unfinished portion of the ring is an enhancement or not. I am very eager to know.
Dr. Bergrun:
A: The preferred definition of "enhance" according to the Merriam Webster Deluxe 1998 dictionary is: to increase or improve in value, quality or desirability or attractiveness. Figure 3, by increasing brightness and contrast, unexpectedly brought out a latent image (the blue). Increasing brightness scarcely qualifies as enhancement within the sense of the definition. Figure 3 says something is present below the termination of the upper ring system. The approach taken was to brighten the entire ring system using figure 2 as the working medium; and this procedure resulted in producing figure 4. Figure 4 qualifies as an enhanced image within the sense of the definition.
JCH:
Q: What I'm concerned about is, is that area where the ring is incomplete, "extended" by enhanced brightness applied to the rest of the ring, or does it naturally possess an energy field that is visual? Presumably laid down, perhaps even prior to the addition of matter to the ring? This would indicate the presence of an incredible energy field extending perhaps through the entire ring. Perhaps, even entirely independent of any gravitational influence and aside from the planet. The next question would be, why they would not utilize gravity to conserve energy and complete the ring faster. This particular ring may be different than the rest.
Dr. Bergrun:
A: The extended ring has sufficient illumination in order for the camera to have recorded its image. The extended field is not an extension caused by increasing exposure. You can not create something that is not already there in the first place. To make the arc seen, were it not really there, means that the arc would have to be painted in. I did not do that.
My interpretation of the extended ring is that it owes to emissions from the objects (Electro-Magnetic Vehicles (EMVs)) which are present there. That this energy field extends through the entire ring is speculation and certainly not evident from the data.
With respect to using gravity assist, this is all factored in or else the EMVs would not be positioned where they are found. The presence of the EMVs, indeed, does make this particular ring system uniquely different. This system contrasts with the "well-behaved" ones commonly seen, which I categorize as "classical".
JCH: Q: When lightened, in the clip to the right, the unfinished ring in your Figure 4 has an illumination, like a phantom effect in Kirilian photography. I wanted to determine that this was not enhanced in any way upon the originals for the purpose of posing the presumption of what the "finished" ring might project.
Dr. Bergrun:
A: There was no enhancement . . . all procedures is indicated in the introductory material about the four figures. Nothing was presumed "before-the-fact" in order to obtain anything shown. It is interesting, however, that you should mention Kirilian photography. Kirilian photography is a process in which an image is obtained by application of a high-frequency electric field to an object so that it radiates a characteristic pattern of luminescence that is recorded on film or other medium. Your observation is supportive of my answer to your second question, namely, that EMVs are present and causing an electric field.
JCH:
DUAL QUESTION: "Why not simply let an orbital configuration exist to hold the matter in place as you go along, and why extend the field so far ahead of your work"?.
Dr. Bergrun:
ANS. TO FIRST QUE: Ringmakers Of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 and Figures 3 and 4 depict numerous emissions. For every emission there is a corresponding reactionary force. There is a "vectorial summary force" or more properly, a "resultant vectorial force" in each of the three physical dimensions (longitudinally, laterally, and elevationally) which can be considered to operate in each of the three planes. The size and direction of these three resultant forces are what keep the source positioned. "Trim" of these large forces is continually needed. The emitted ring itself has properties to keep it located also . . . to hold the matter in place . . . after all, the exhaust matter is still (electrically) connected to the source. Under such circumstances, nothing more is needed as the whole thing is a "shaped" magnetic field.
ANS. TO SECOND QUE: Based on the answer to the first question, extending energy forward (into the tip or elliptical area) owes to the requirement of force management, particularly that of trim, hereto mentioned. Elaborating further, the MANAGEMENT of so many forces implies some very high-level "smarts", i.e., intelligence. I infer from the foregoing deductions that the "intelligence thinking" is this: "We have so much energy at our disposal, we don't have to use it efficiently. A corollary thought is: "If we run low, we always can get to a large fuel supply".
Earthly humankind has a problem in creating high specific impulse (Isp) fuels (high Isp means high energy per unit measure). So humans are constrained in their thinking to HAVING to use fuel efficiently. This constraint certainly does not apply to the intelligence possessing the high Isp matter as inferred from the presence of a fire ball larger than Earth's moon!
IMPLIED QUESTIONS: Is the completed ellipse (figures 3 and 4) another kind of containment to hold chunks of matter in a ring?
ANS: First off, I don't see "chunks of matter" in the completed ellipse . . . it looks more like gaseous plasma. Ringmakers Of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 never revealed evidence of a completed ellipse. So my interpretation is this: The "ring-completion" effect has to do with the force balance. Therefore, it may or may not appear . . . it probably can be pulsed or "tuned" as required or desired.
JCH:
Q: Are there other characteristics in this unfinished ring relatively unique to it that you have noticed?
Dr. Bergrun:
A:
1. No. The unfinished ring is, indeed, real as opposed to allegations to the contrary.
2. That different colors exist between the upper part of the ring system and the tip (Imaging definitely is clean and clear in the entire vicinity . . . see Figure 3), demonstrates a clear discontinuity in the nature of the ring structure. A discontinuity is a clear signal that an "input" is available, otherwise the discontinuity would not be there. Further, the difference in color of the upper part of the ring system as contrasted with the elliptical area can be construed as different matter, or a different state of matter, being present.
DISCUSSION OF THE RINGS
by Dr. Norman Bergrun
My interpretation is directed to the inception of the rings. The rings are inevitable owing to an energy source spewing "exhaust" energy (like an airplane engine spewing energy, seen as a contrail when the temperature is sufficiently low). Another way to look at the situation is: The rings are a result of something causing them. Therefore, the rings are not intentionally "constructed".
The appearance of rings is a secondary phenomena, similar to an airplane-engine "con trail" being secondary phenomena to an airplane. The intent of an airplane-engine is not "con-trail construction". The contrail is simply an inevitable by-product of engine operation.
Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 caused me to realize early on that the width of the A-ring is at the most no wider than the lengths of the objects in the ring. Further, the A-ring does not have a "classical" full width. That part of the A-ring is missing radially provides the clue where the rings (what there are of them) are coming from . . . namely the objects.
Upon realization that ring width correlates with object length, I raised this question: "If the inner part of the A ring is made this way, what about the outer part"? Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 7 and 8 are two examples of objects in the outer A ring with ring trails. This is where I rested my case.
ON THE NATURE OF ATYPICAL RINGS
Dr. Bergrun:
COMMENT ON "SUSTAIN A LIVING ENVIRONMENT": My position on "living environment" in space is yes, there is life in space . . . organic biota, albeit different from that with which human kind is acquainted. I can not tell from Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6, or from Figures 3 and 4 whether or not the Saturn Voyager 1 ring tips indeed contain biota. The concept of a "nursery" goes beyond the pictorial data.
JCH:
USE OF ENERGY: Statement and Question. Were the area of the ring laid down before matter was added as an energy field (whose connection this represents), the question is why use energy in this fashion?
Dr. Bergrun:
A: A hypothetical question is posed here as indicated by the use of the word "were". Nevertheless, in this assumed situation, it is difficult for me to see how one could "lay down an area". Hypothetically, let's give an order to "lay me down an area" . . . "I want to fill it". My interpretation is that laying down an area (here my meaning is laying down " boundaries" to define an area) and filling it with matter is not how the objects work. Ring shape (width) basically is controlled when the matter emerges from the objects, as heretofore discussed. Ring thickness is also governed by body geometry . . . specifically its diameter. The rings are thick near the source and become thinner the farther away the emissions are from the source. This is why researchers over the years have arrived at such a variety of values for ring thickness . . . the value depends not only on where you look, but also when you look. What Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 and P23870 Figures 3 and 4 show is at least one way to cause a ring to appear. This "one way" does not preclude existence of other ways.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Huginn]
Dr. Norman Bergrun stunned the world in 1986 with the publication of his extremely well researched book Ringmakers of Saturn. With its release, Dr. Bergrun provided an astounding glimpse behind the veils of officialdom. And now with this new work, he further defines his original work. He identifies a new image similar to that from which he scanned the atypical ring, proving beyond doubt that the missing ring section is PHYSICALLY REAL, and that the "cutoff appearance" of the ring system is NOT THE RESULT OF CAMERA IMAGING, IMAGE PROCESSING OR CRAFT MALFUNCTION
NEW RING DATA: The Saturn NASA Voyager 1
Recently, allegations have been made to the effect that the incomplete ring system shown in the book, "Ringmakers of Saturn", is not real. In response to these allegations, another image has been located which substantiates the one presented in Ringmakers of Saturn. The identification number for this second image is NASA P23870. That a second image exists supporting the one presented in Ringmakers of Saturn shows that the event was neither spurious nor owing to a malfunction of imaging and/or image processing. Two samples of the same phenomenon takes it out of the realm of chance and places it in the repeatable category of a real, physical event.
NASA P23870 has been made into four figures, numbered 1 through 4.
Figure 1 is NASA P23870; and it compares the general appearance of Saturn as photographed during the NASA Voyager 1 and 2 missions, which were about nine months apart. A purpose of the comparison was to show that the brightness of the rings increased between the two encounters.
Figure 2 is the NASA Voyager 1 image cropped from NASA P23870. Nothing else was done photographically to obtain figure 2, other than the cropping operation. The purpose of the cropping was to obtain the image applicable to NASA Voyager 1.
Figure 3 is figure 2 with only brightness and contrast increased. No other photographic changes were made. The foregoing variables were increased just enough to enable scrutiny of the area in the vicinity of ring-system termination. When this operation was performed, figure 3 reveals that no malfunction of imaging lines is apparent and that the framing of the image is not a cause for the atypical termination of the ring system. Significantly, noticeable activity occurs just below ring-system termination (indicated by the blue color), thereby proving that there is no imaging malfunction and no framing cut-off.
Finally, figure 4 is presented. Figure 4 is obtained from figure 2 by brightening the entire ring system. By performing this operation, all of what is going on can be seen in one image. A blue arc appears connecting ring-system termination on the left-hand side with that on the right-hand side. That this can occur, indicates a flow between the two sides. The other observation is that a discontinuity of the ring system now is readily apparent as indicated by the change in colors from a yellow-green with purplish overtones (upper ring system) to blue (terminal arc of the ring system). Separating the abruptly different colors are slender, long objects (called ElectroMagnetic Vehicles, or EMVs, in Ringmakers of Saturn). These can clearly account for the presence of the blue arc. (Note: The brightened ring-system image is fairly unique. Different persons should be able to obtain similar images; but the chance of every person making them identical to one another is somewhat remote).
In figure 4, it is interesting to note that a fireball appears on the left-hand side of the ring system (this same thing also was observed and pointed out in Ringmakers of Saturn). However, no fireball appears on the right-hand side of the ring system. In Ringmakers of Saturn, this fireball was scaled to be larger than Earth's moon, indicating the presence of a huge amount of energy. The orange color of the fireball versus the absence of a fiery color on the right-hand side is an indicator that the left-hand side is at a higher temperature than the right-hand side.
Ringmakers of Saturn made out the case that the efflux from EMVs is electrical in character, indicating that electrical potentials (voltages) are present. The temperature difference between the two sides of the ring-system in figure 4 can be translated, then, to mean that a potential difference exists between the left- and right-hand sides of the ring system at the discontinuity and that, inferentially, the flow of the efflux portrayed by the blue arc is from left to right.
In conclusion, that two samples of the same event has been recorded in itself says that the event does not owe to chance, but rather is real. That activity appears which shows a completion of the ring system compounds the physical reality of the event.
Appendix Note: NASA P23870 was a 35 mm transparency scanned at 600 dpi at 200 percent with a .tif extension. The .tif extension was reformatted to a .jpg extension, and then each image was "Saved for the Web" using Photoshop 6.0.
QUESTIONS DEALING WITH THE PROCESSING OF ABOVE IMAGES
Dr. Bergrun interviewed by James Horak
JCH:
Q: It is highly significant if that illumination comprising the unfinished portion of the ring is an enhancement or not. I am very eager to know.
Dr. Bergrun:
A: The preferred definition of "enhance" according to the Merriam Webster Deluxe 1998 dictionary is: to increase or improve in value, quality or desirability or attractiveness. Figure 3, by increasing brightness and contrast, unexpectedly brought out a latent image (the blue). Increasing brightness scarcely qualifies as enhancement within the sense of the definition. Figure 3 says something is present below the termination of the upper ring system. The approach taken was to brighten the entire ring system using figure 2 as the working medium; and this procedure resulted in producing figure 4. Figure 4 qualifies as an enhanced image within the sense of the definition.
JCH:
Q: What I'm concerned about is, is that area where the ring is incomplete, "extended" by enhanced brightness applied to the rest of the ring, or does it naturally possess an energy field that is visual? Presumably laid down, perhaps even prior to the addition of matter to the ring? This would indicate the presence of an incredible energy field extending perhaps through the entire ring. Perhaps, even entirely independent of any gravitational influence and aside from the planet. The next question would be, why they would not utilize gravity to conserve energy and complete the ring faster. This particular ring may be different than the rest.
Dr. Bergrun:
A: The extended ring has sufficient illumination in order for the camera to have recorded its image. The extended field is not an extension caused by increasing exposure. You can not create something that is not already there in the first place. To make the arc seen, were it not really there, means that the arc would have to be painted in. I did not do that.
My interpretation of the extended ring is that it owes to emissions from the objects (Electro-Magnetic Vehicles (EMVs)) which are present there. That this energy field extends through the entire ring is speculation and certainly not evident from the data.
With respect to using gravity assist, this is all factored in or else the EMVs would not be positioned where they are found. The presence of the EMVs, indeed, does make this particular ring system uniquely different. This system contrasts with the "well-behaved" ones commonly seen, which I categorize as "classical".
JCH: Q: When lightened, in the clip to the right, the unfinished ring in your Figure 4 has an illumination, like a phantom effect in Kirilian photography. I wanted to determine that this was not enhanced in any way upon the originals for the purpose of posing the presumption of what the "finished" ring might project.
Dr. Bergrun:
A: There was no enhancement . . . all procedures is indicated in the introductory material about the four figures. Nothing was presumed "before-the-fact" in order to obtain anything shown. It is interesting, however, that you should mention Kirilian photography. Kirilian photography is a process in which an image is obtained by application of a high-frequency electric field to an object so that it radiates a characteristic pattern of luminescence that is recorded on film or other medium. Your observation is supportive of my answer to your second question, namely, that EMVs are present and causing an electric field.
JCH:
DUAL QUESTION: "Why not simply let an orbital configuration exist to hold the matter in place as you go along, and why extend the field so far ahead of your work"?.
Dr. Bergrun:
ANS. TO FIRST QUE: Ringmakers Of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 and Figures 3 and 4 depict numerous emissions. For every emission there is a corresponding reactionary force. There is a "vectorial summary force" or more properly, a "resultant vectorial force" in each of the three physical dimensions (longitudinally, laterally, and elevationally) which can be considered to operate in each of the three planes. The size and direction of these three resultant forces are what keep the source positioned. "Trim" of these large forces is continually needed. The emitted ring itself has properties to keep it located also . . . to hold the matter in place . . . after all, the exhaust matter is still (electrically) connected to the source. Under such circumstances, nothing more is needed as the whole thing is a "shaped" magnetic field.
ANS. TO SECOND QUE: Based on the answer to the first question, extending energy forward (into the tip or elliptical area) owes to the requirement of force management, particularly that of trim, hereto mentioned. Elaborating further, the MANAGEMENT of so many forces implies some very high-level "smarts", i.e., intelligence. I infer from the foregoing deductions that the "intelligence thinking" is this: "We have so much energy at our disposal, we don't have to use it efficiently. A corollary thought is: "If we run low, we always can get to a large fuel supply".
Earthly humankind has a problem in creating high specific impulse (Isp) fuels (high Isp means high energy per unit measure). So humans are constrained in their thinking to HAVING to use fuel efficiently. This constraint certainly does not apply to the intelligence possessing the high Isp matter as inferred from the presence of a fire ball larger than Earth's moon!
IMPLIED QUESTIONS: Is the completed ellipse (figures 3 and 4) another kind of containment to hold chunks of matter in a ring?
ANS: First off, I don't see "chunks of matter" in the completed ellipse . . . it looks more like gaseous plasma. Ringmakers Of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 never revealed evidence of a completed ellipse. So my interpretation is this: The "ring-completion" effect has to do with the force balance. Therefore, it may or may not appear . . . it probably can be pulsed or "tuned" as required or desired.
JCH:
Q: Are there other characteristics in this unfinished ring relatively unique to it that you have noticed?
Dr. Bergrun:
A:
1. No. The unfinished ring is, indeed, real as opposed to allegations to the contrary.
2. That different colors exist between the upper part of the ring system and the tip (Imaging definitely is clean and clear in the entire vicinity . . . see Figure 3), demonstrates a clear discontinuity in the nature of the ring structure. A discontinuity is a clear signal that an "input" is available, otherwise the discontinuity would not be there. Further, the difference in color of the upper part of the ring system as contrasted with the elliptical area can be construed as different matter, or a different state of matter, being present.
DISCUSSION OF THE RINGS
by Dr. Norman Bergrun
My interpretation is directed to the inception of the rings. The rings are inevitable owing to an energy source spewing "exhaust" energy (like an airplane engine spewing energy, seen as a contrail when the temperature is sufficiently low). Another way to look at the situation is: The rings are a result of something causing them. Therefore, the rings are not intentionally "constructed".
The appearance of rings is a secondary phenomena, similar to an airplane-engine "con trail" being secondary phenomena to an airplane. The intent of an airplane-engine is not "con-trail construction". The contrail is simply an inevitable by-product of engine operation.
Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 caused me to realize early on that the width of the A-ring is at the most no wider than the lengths of the objects in the ring. Further, the A-ring does not have a "classical" full width. That part of the A-ring is missing radially provides the clue where the rings (what there are of them) are coming from . . . namely the objects.
Upon realization that ring width correlates with object length, I raised this question: "If the inner part of the A ring is made this way, what about the outer part"? Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 7 and 8 are two examples of objects in the outer A ring with ring trails. This is where I rested my case.
ON THE NATURE OF ATYPICAL RINGS
Dr. Bergrun:
COMMENT ON "SUSTAIN A LIVING ENVIRONMENT": My position on "living environment" in space is yes, there is life in space . . . organic biota, albeit different from that with which human kind is acquainted. I can not tell from Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6, or from Figures 3 and 4 whether or not the Saturn Voyager 1 ring tips indeed contain biota. The concept of a "nursery" goes beyond the pictorial data.
JCH:
USE OF ENERGY: Statement and Question. Were the area of the ring laid down before matter was added as an energy field (whose connection this represents), the question is why use energy in this fashion?
Dr. Bergrun:
A: A hypothetical question is posed here as indicated by the use of the word "were". Nevertheless, in this assumed situation, it is difficult for me to see how one could "lay down an area". Hypothetically, let's give an order to "lay me down an area" . . . "I want to fill it". My interpretation is that laying down an area (here my meaning is laying down " boundaries" to define an area) and filling it with matter is not how the objects work. Ring shape (width) basically is controlled when the matter emerges from the objects, as heretofore discussed. Ring thickness is also governed by body geometry . . . specifically its diameter. The rings are thick near the source and become thinner the farther away the emissions are from the source. This is why researchers over the years have arrived at such a variety of values for ring thickness . . . the value depends not only on where you look, but also when you look. What Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6 and P23870 Figures 3 and 4 show is at least one way to cause a ring to appear. This "one way" does not preclude existence of other ways.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Huginn]
Thanks for this very detailed and helpful transcript. It allows a careful researcher to detect 'tracers' in stories the author tells that can
actually be checked out, to assess his reliability in claims that cannot be checked out.
This particular tracer deals with V-2 missiles, which Bergrun claims were 'manned' by test pilots to check out stability problems.
All historians of German WW2 missiles agree -- this never happened, and never could have happened on pure rocket engineering principles. Bergrun misremembered, or in his self-proclaimed expertise, fell for somebody else's tall tale.
This is a useful data point.
What DID happen was that Fiedler flew an improvised cockpit on the V-1:
1998 obit, age 89
www.nytimes.com...
It describes his WW2 experience as being limited to the V-1 buzz bomb,
With no work whatsoever on the V-2 missile.
“According to a sketch by Jeffery Adams, a spokesman for the Missiles and Space Division, Mr. Fiedler became a test pilot in Germany and played a leading role in the development of the V-1. From 1942 to 1944 at Peenemunde on the Baltic Sea coast of Germany, he helped test the missile, which was used in World War II.”
According to this obit, he was one of the handful of test pilots who had ridden aboard the v-1 ‘buzz bombs’ to test their stability.
news.google.com...,3810933
So the memory is founded on an actual personal experience, with the main technical feature garbled.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by JimOberg]
This particular tracer deals with V-2 missiles, which Bergrun claims were 'manned' by test pilots to check out stability problems.
All historians of German WW2 missiles agree -- this never happened, and never could have happened on pure rocket engineering principles. Bergrun misremembered, or in his self-proclaimed expertise, fell for somebody else's tall tale.
This is a useful data point.
Originally posted by Huginn
In October 1999, Dr Bergrun agreed to be interviewed by MUFON´s Don Ecker regarding his conclusion that 'Huge Artificial Machines' are operating in our solar system. Sis is what he had to say:
DFE: The military was doing a lot of testing with missile systems back then, incorporating what they'd learned from the captured German V-2 rockets.
NB: On the Polaris project, we had a fellow named Willy Fiedler, who was a key designer of the missile. He worked on the V-2 during the war. Hitler visited Peenemunde on a Monday and wanted rockets hitting England by the following week, or else. Willy came up with a control system that had to be manually operated, so he ended up flying in one of those things.
DFE: A manned flight. He had gauges on board and was able to see all the forces at work, and from that he was able to come up with an automated system.
DFE: You're obviously well grounded in scientific principle and theory.
What DID happen was that Fiedler flew an improvised cockpit on the V-1:
1998 obit, age 89
www.nytimes.com...
It describes his WW2 experience as being limited to the V-1 buzz bomb,
With no work whatsoever on the V-2 missile.
“According to a sketch by Jeffery Adams, a spokesman for the Missiles and Space Division, Mr. Fiedler became a test pilot in Germany and played a leading role in the development of the V-1. From 1942 to 1944 at Peenemunde on the Baltic Sea coast of Germany, he helped test the missile, which was used in World War II.”
According to this obit, he was one of the handful of test pilots who had ridden aboard the v-1 ‘buzz bombs’ to test their stability.
news.google.com...,3810933
So the memory is founded on an actual personal experience, with the main technical feature garbled.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by JimOberg]
reply to post by Gorman91
Thanks for the reply I have a lot of respect for what you're bringing up
I'm just some one who likes thinking about this stuff and I 'm no rocket scientist for sure
so my next question is yes they're huge but why do we think they exceed the mass of the Earth ?
maybe they're hollow maybe their hulls are only an atom thin I
dunno
I think they are something other than bad lighting or camera tricks
if they were'nt why wouldn't the same phenomena show up every whereCassini goes?
also I'm handicapped by the not speaking French thing and I 'm still looking through all this info
I don't have any great investment in them being structures made by ETs or are ETS or a hoax I'm cool with any of the above
just talking
Thanks for the reply I have a lot of respect for what you're bringing up
I'm just some one who likes thinking about this stuff and I 'm no rocket scientist for sure
so my next question is yes they're huge but why do we think they exceed the mass of the Earth ?
maybe they're hollow maybe their hulls are only an atom thin I
dunno
I think they are something other than bad lighting or camera tricks
if they were'nt why wouldn't the same phenomena show up every whereCassini goes?
also I'm handicapped by the not speaking French thing and I 'm still looking through all this info
I don't have any great investment in them being structures made by ETs or are ETS or a hoax I'm cool with any of the above
just talking
reply to post by JimOberg
Thanks, JO (and orion and gorman, too) for bringing science and sanity to this topic!
Now...for the "RingMaker" believers....WHY did "they" choose Saturn?
Jupiter is certainly much more impressive, and it's also closer to Earth, so would be even more spectacular (assuming they're doing all of this to 'show off' for we earthlings...)
Also, Europa...Certainly a (possible) prime candidate for life to evolve, if not already, then in the distant future. Be a nice birthday present for some future sentient species; giant rings around Jupiter, dontcha think?
Thanks, JO (and orion and gorman, too) for bringing science and sanity to this topic!
Now...for the "RingMaker" believers....WHY did "they" choose Saturn?
Jupiter is certainly much more impressive, and it's also closer to Earth, so would be even more spectacular (assuming they're doing all of this to 'show off' for we earthlings...)
Also, Europa...Certainly a (possible) prime candidate for life to evolve, if not already, then in the distant future. Be a nice birthday present for some future sentient species; giant rings around Jupiter, dontcha think?
reply to post by Gorman91
But you still are not demonstrating that we what we are seeing is the result of cropped images.
This only demonstrates that we know gravity exists, not how it works, why mass attracts other mass. We still don't know why mass attracts mass, just as we don't understand what makes the small force and the large force in atomic matter.
Yes, Jupiter and Neptune have very thin rings, but they are different n composition, and believed to be caused by dust from moons. If those rings are being created by something, then why wouldn't Saturn and Uranus rings also be created by something.
But you still are not demonstrating that we what we are seeing is the result of cropped images.
Also. We know how gravity works. Thing has mass. Mass attracts other mass. Other mass fall to big mass. That's how gravity works. Links to the technology from before. Here they are again.
This only demonstrates that we know gravity exists, not how it works, why mass attracts other mass. We still don't know why mass attracts mass, just as we don't understand what makes the small force and the large force in atomic matter.
Yes, Jupiter and Neptune have very thin rings, but they are different n composition, and believed to be caused by dust from moons. If those rings are being created by something, then why wouldn't Saturn and Uranus rings also be created by something.
Originally posted by MrsBlonde
okay I have a question if the cylinder is just a effect of a cassini photographic glitch how come other things that are round or whatever shape are not similarly distorted?
would the camera distort it so it was always the same configuration?
It Looks to me like these things are there,beyond that I can't begin to imagine what they are
if I had to guess right now I would say maybe they are robot exploratory vehicles
kinda like the ones we regularly send to other planets!!!! only hella big of course
Its because of the objects position speed and direction relative to the camera that cause the effect its simple if you think about it!
reply to post by Huginn
Great stuff, thanks for posting this.
This is the stuff I find interesting.
Nursery? or perhaps a plasma ecosystem?
Great stuff, thanks for posting this.
This is the stuff I find interesting.
First off, I don't see "chunks of matter" in the completed ellipse . . . it looks more like gaseous plasma.
COMMENT ON "SUSTAIN A LIVING ENVIRONMENT": My position on "living environment" in space is yes, there is life in space . . . organic biota, albeit different from that with which human kind is acquainted. I can not tell from Ringmakers of Saturn Plates 5 and 6, or from Figures 3 and 4 whether or not the Saturn Voyager 1 ring tips indeed contain biota. The concept of a "nursery" goes beyond the pictorial data.
Nursery? or perhaps a plasma ecosystem?
reply to post by poet1b
Are you just ignoring what I say?
The orbit of the outter worlds are different by years. That is years with an S. Meaning that there are IMMENSE forces working in different ways, different by thousands of miles an hour. This is enough to explain the rings. They are not all plesantly plump worlds going along at the same speeds. Just look at the gas of Jupiter and the gas of Saturn. Saturn literally is lines of gas. Jupiter has swirls. The speeds of the rotation of the planet and their orbit are as different from a 1920 ford to the space shuttle.
Are you just pretending not to see this?
And once again, are you just flat out ignoring what I just said?
Here it is clear as day.
The stars from the book cover do NOT match the actual position of the stars there. THEY WERE CROPPED.
If you want to continue sounding even a bit educated, you have to explain this.
This is literally a head # to the theory. It puts it in the grave. It proves the images are cropped because the stars have moved million so flight years from their true position.
I invite you to use the same program I did. Celestia is a wonderful tool to see how wrong you are.
www.shatters.net...
If you are just going to ignore what I say and repeat the points I killed from your original statements, don't bother responding. It just makes you look lazy and ignorant.
reply to post by Huginn
Same to you. Everything you just stated in terms if pictures, is proven wrong.
Go to the program I just talked about. Load up the year voyager 1 passed by Saturn. Take a look at the stars. Lower their brightness to the levels seen in the camera. The stars are not in the right place.
FYI, the fact that there are barely any stars there proves the exposure was long. IE, cropping had to be used.
Now sorry to you both for sounding so upset. I am not. I am just amazed of your selective memories.
Remember the whole deny ignorance thing?
reply to post by MrsBlonde
One atom thick hulls would be bloody hard to do anything with. You'd need an atom as large as something like a wedding ring to even begin to have a useful hull.
Hulls have to be strong. Probably super condensed diamond, Titanium alloys, a mixture of both, carbon fiber, or some sort of tile format. And the diamond I speak up would be so dense it's likely to be black rather than clear.
Reason for that is meteors. Lovely rocks of doom deaths and destruction about the size of a pebble, traveling a few hundred thousand miles per hour.
IE,
So yea;.
Space is a bad bad place. Chaotic and insane. You don't want a thin hull. you want a turtle shell.
As to why it shoes up in all its shots? Have you thought that maybe that's because the camera is at fault?
Makes a lot more sense. Get any camera o yours. Next time you are in a car, see what long exposure does to pictures as high velocity.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Gorman91]
Are you just ignoring what I say?
The orbit of the outter worlds are different by years. That is years with an S. Meaning that there are IMMENSE forces working in different ways, different by thousands of miles an hour. This is enough to explain the rings. They are not all plesantly plump worlds going along at the same speeds. Just look at the gas of Jupiter and the gas of Saturn. Saturn literally is lines of gas. Jupiter has swirls. The speeds of the rotation of the planet and their orbit are as different from a 1920 ford to the space shuttle.
Are you just pretending not to see this?
And once again, are you just flat out ignoring what I just said?
Here it is clear as day.
The stars from the book cover do NOT match the actual position of the stars there. THEY WERE CROPPED.
If you want to continue sounding even a bit educated, you have to explain this.
This is literally a head # to the theory. It puts it in the grave. It proves the images are cropped because the stars have moved million so flight years from their true position.
I invite you to use the same program I did. Celestia is a wonderful tool to see how wrong you are.
www.shatters.net...
If you are just going to ignore what I say and repeat the points I killed from your original statements, don't bother responding. It just makes you look lazy and ignorant.
reply to post by Huginn
Same to you. Everything you just stated in terms if pictures, is proven wrong.
Go to the program I just talked about. Load up the year voyager 1 passed by Saturn. Take a look at the stars. Lower their brightness to the levels seen in the camera. The stars are not in the right place.
FYI, the fact that there are barely any stars there proves the exposure was long. IE, cropping had to be used.
Now sorry to you both for sounding so upset. I am not. I am just amazed of your selective memories.
Remember the whole deny ignorance thing?
reply to post by MrsBlonde
One atom thick hulls would be bloody hard to do anything with. You'd need an atom as large as something like a wedding ring to even begin to have a useful hull.
Hulls have to be strong. Probably super condensed diamond, Titanium alloys, a mixture of both, carbon fiber, or some sort of tile format. And the diamond I speak up would be so dense it's likely to be black rather than clear.
Reason for that is meteors. Lovely rocks of doom deaths and destruction about the size of a pebble, traveling a few hundred thousand miles per hour.
IE,
So yea;.
Space is a bad bad place. Chaotic and insane. You don't want a thin hull. you want a turtle shell.
As to why it shoes up in all its shots? Have you thought that maybe that's because the camera is at fault?
Makes a lot more sense. Get any camera o yours. Next time you are in a car, see what long exposure does to pictures as high velocity.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by Gorman91]
reply to post by Kandinsky
Thank you for the explanation of the 53 moons of Saturn.
On film it looks so nebulously beautiful!
*I absolutely flagged this thread and starred it! So well done. Take a bow!*
Thank you for the explanation of the 53 moons of Saturn.
On film it looks so nebulously beautiful!
*I absolutely flagged this thread and starred it! So well done. Take a bow!*
reply to post by OrionHunterX
Second post of yours that I like! Thanks for the information. It is very helpful and also suggests that people should try to look to the equipment
to these effects albeit marvelous to behold!
Second post of yours that I like! Thanks for the information. It is very helpful and also suggests that people should try to look to the equipment
to these effects albeit marvelous to behold!
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