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The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice?

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posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by teapot
 


Hi Teapot,

Nice to hear from you after such a long time. I thought you got the answer and left the thread or you didn't had any more argument to prove "The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice".

Anyway it is nice to hear from you. And you are welcome again.

This thread title is "The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice" not "The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice according to Bible". So anyone can gives his views with correct understanding and authentic proof. Secondly, mostly in my discussion and reply i have given bible quoting not Quran. Even, I have argue with you with the Bible Quoting not Quran.

But i admit that this topic has gone far beyound to the thread subject, and until now we had very healthy conversation.

And last, copy & paste require effort. Effort towards the truth. I did not said anything garbage or from my own desire. I was just quoting only from the Books.




posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 05:41 AM
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reply to post by teapot
 


Forget to mentioned.

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” John 8:32



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 06:10 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Hi LV,

I have to say something on your statement..

"The idea that people are learning something about themselves on the path of Jesus...is no more or less right or wrong...for all paths can teach us something about ourselves if we are truly observing ourselves for a path of spiritual growth."

This does not have to be your 'truth' or understanding...but through my personal path....I have discovered God is the nameless one...so I usually refer to 'God' as 'THEE'.

If everyone has regarded to choose any path or their own personal path than what was the reason of sending prophets and messenger to this world?

I agree with Joecroft, not any path. But the Straight Path which is led down by Almighty Lord(Allah/Elah) given to his prophets and messengers which is revealed in the Books (Torah, Gosphel, Quran..etc).

And who believe in (the Quran and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you [Muhammed (PBUH)] and in that which we sent down before (Torah & Gospel, etc.) and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter.(Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell,) They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful. (Quran 2:4-5)



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 06:18 AM
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Guys,

I will be leaving this thread now. As per the advice of one brother, Inshallah (Our Lord Willing) i will be soon coming with my own thread. Hopefully, see you very soon. It was nice speaking to all of you, specially Joe/LV. Much thanks for all those replies.

Peace



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 


Hi Abuaisha/

Tell me, if your prophet Muhammed is the final prophet,and he does so believe in Jesus Christ,*then why did Islam destroy, rape and massacre millions of Orthodox Christians in Constantinople?
If you can answer me this, then I will see what you are saying as somewhat believable...until then, Islam has shown no humilit nor any regret in what has been done in the past!



EDIT...spelling and added *
ICXC NIKA
helen

[edit on 6/7/2010 by helen670]



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:52 AM
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The sacrifice is to pay for our sins. The world will be destoyed again like in the days of Noah, But it will be by fire and since Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins, we can choose to live his way and be saved from that destruction. The judgement is still coming upon the world. The only ones who will be spared are the ones who believe and except Jesus's death on the cross for our sins.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by helen670
 


Mankind will be judge according to Islam, Islam will not be judge by the Mankind. In short you cannot predict about any religion by there followers.

Same i can say about Christianity. I can give example of Hitler.

Islam is a religion of peace and Prophet Muhammed is not a founder of Islam religion.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by helen670
 


Another misconseption need to be clear.. Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) is not a author of Quran.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 


Hi Abuaisia/

Hitler has nothing to do with my faith!
Jesus Christ said to love all people!
We love all people, but we may 'hate' the sin...for it is 'sin' that seperates us from knowing the true God.

ICXC NIKA
helen



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 10:18 AM
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Hi all...

Going to try to make a few responses to several posts in this one posts and have enjoyed having the discourse with everyone very much. As always, my personal take is only through my personal experiences and path...and any one's persoanl path should not just be accepted as truth.

Abuaisha

I have studied many scriptures...and it was not until I placed my fate in the hands of the Holy Spirit that I learned about naming 'God' limits Thee. If you are learning something by 'naming' God that is great....it helps remind me of how mankind has limited the Spirit of God by needing a 'name' for God. I do not agree that a name tells us the nature of God and I believe that you also can not learn all about Gods nature through a book of Earth. This is where a personal path is needed, for there are things that must be taught through the Holy Spirit and not just given unto a being.

The reason I dont call Thee 'Lord' is because Lord, to me, imply's a dictatorship...which just from my experience, I have learned that Thee is not a dictator.

From a post of yours...



If everyone has regarded to choose any path or their own personal path than what was the reason of sending prophets and messenger to this world? I agree with Joecroft, not any path. But the Straight Path which is led down by Almighty Lord(Allah/Elah) given to his prophets and messengers which is revealed in the Books (Torah, Gosphel, Quran..etc).


We all have different things we have learned from due to our environments, cultures, and past lives (this may go against your beliefs but I use this in mine). The books of many cultures can teach us something, but they all contain 2 different wisdom's, wisdom's of Earth and self, and wisdom's of Spirit and the All. There is not one perfect book. I dont believe God has sent prophets and messengers....I believe that if there was a man that shared spiritual wisdom, they learned this through their own growth...the credit should go to the fact that those men were able to look over the Earthly ways and were able to truly live for the Divine purpose, which is to serve others here. Just because a man lived a life that has much to teach us, does not mean that it is a messenger or prophet...people want to believe God is intervening by sending us 'special people'. Its more about if we are able to look and see who discovered their inner being and chose to live for that. It is then, that any man, can be a messenger, because the Holy Spirit is then, able to work through that body complex.

prophecywatcher

I will share with you just as I share with others, I dont claim it as truth...but it is the truth on my path.




The sacrifice is to pay for our sins. The world will be destoyed again like in the days of Noah,


Another can not pay for your sins...this information is given as a marker for those that are not seeking understanding. Blood sacrifices are a path of Earth and is not spiritual wisdom. Mankind has tried to use blood sacrifices throughout much of our time and many of our cultures. You must carry your own cross. I have witnessed my mother in between life and what ever comes after life...and the moment she faced her belief in placing her sins onto another was the most frightening moment of her 9 hours of experiences.

Just my take, each to their own is how we learn what we are in need of.

Much love to all...and peace for your journeys
LV



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by helen670
 


Adolf Hitler was raised as a Roman Catholic. He was a Christian. We do find good and bad people in all religion. That does not make true message of a religion and their followers bad.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 



Hi Lv,

Nice to hear from you again.

Coming to the discussion,let me recall my words "calling God by Holy Name". in previous post i have mentioned that God Himself has called Him by His Holy Name and so do prophet & messengers. And there is wisdom behind it; God Called Him by His most beautiful and Holy Names; the wisdom is we can know the nature of God. It is not my personal opinion or desire to give the name of the God. I wont do that,never.

I was so suprise to hear that you do not believe that God has send prophets & messenger, that doesn't mean that you dont believe in them. Am i right.. So i thought what this man is upto. I checked all your past thread and try to understand you as much as i could.

You are talking about spirituality. World of human spirit without flesh or bone. Long time ago a thought came to my mind, what makes the prophets & messengers of Almight God makes them so special compare to other mankind. The answer is the " Their Spirit". Because they are the choosen people. I must say very few of us can achive that stage. To achive that stage you have to leave the worldly life, which is just material life.

Have you read the Quran and brief explanation of each verses which we call it tafsir? I would personally recommend you a wonderful book on Spirt/Soul by one of wellknow and honorable islamic scholor and famous Syrian theologist of 8 century. The author name is Ibn Qayyem Al Jawaziah(PBUH).

Below are few intersting quotes from his Book.

Islam teaches us that Man has to pass through 3 stage of life.

1) The first stage begins with entry of Soul into his designated body. After its entery into body the soul takes command of the body and body reacts to its command for good or bad deeds. This stage is called in Arabic "Dar-rul-Amal" which means House of actions.

2) The second stage begins just after the death. This is transit period that begins with the death of a man and continues upto Doomsday.This stage is called House of Barzakh.This serves as a transit camp for his onward journey to the enternal life in Hereafter.

3) The third and final stage commences from the day of Resurrection. In this stage a man harvests whatever he had sowed the seeds of good deed or bad deed during his first stage of life. This condition is called in arabic "Dar-rul-Jaja" which means House or world of Recompense. This world has no end and it is enternal or immortal.

There are many interesting topic in this book. "The Soul".

But believe me no body can learn the spirituality from the personal experience or personal path. You need a teacher and true teachers are the choosen prophets and messengers (pbut).

If what i have assumed about you above is correct than you will not find such level of people to talk in ATS.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 



Hi Abuaisha



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Regarding the Matthew 26:62-66, what you understood is the text but what are the context?

One argument often raised by Christians in order to try and prove the deity of Christ is that they say that the Jews accused Jesus of committing blasphemy. However, I am here to argue that the Jews misunderstood them and that Jesus never did commit blasphemy. We will also examine the real reason why the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy.



John 10:30
“I and the Father are one."


Yes it is true, that when Jesus said “I and the Father are one." In the above verse, the Jews thought that Jesus was stating, that he was God and therefore accused him of being blasphemous. The Jews of course were wrong, because that’s not what Jesus meant, at all.

Further down in the passage, Jesus tries to explain what he meant by “I and the Father are one." By saying… “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?”

If as you suggest, this should be translated instead as “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am a servant of God” then the Jews should have left Jesus alone but instead they still try to seize him.

IMO I believe the Jews, on hearing Jesus saying “…'I am God's Son'” see that as blasphemy as well and that is why they still wanted to seize him.
I can ‘t understand why the Jews would still want to seize him, if he only explained that he was “a servant of God”, that doesn’t make much sense to me.

I guess my argument is similar for the verses Matthew 26:62-66…I can’t see why Jesus would be put to death, for simply acknowledging that he was “a servant of God” assuming of course, that is what he was being accused of, which also doesn’t make much sense. I mean, why would anyone accuse someone of being “a servant of God”?

And, if the Jews still believed that Jesus was stating he was God, then they should have made that clear when asking Jesus to confirm (Matthew 26:62-66) his blasphemous remark, but they don’t ask him if he is God, they ask him if his is the “son of God”




Originally posted by Abuaisha
John 8:37-40 :

37) I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38) I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. " 39) "Abraham is our father," they answered. If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do what Abraham did. 40) As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

Jesus is accusing them of killing him simply because they do not like or want to accept his teachings. Jesus clearly stated to them that he is a MAN who was telling them the truth that he heard from GOD. NOT THAT HE IS GOD!!!!!!!!


I don’t believe Jesus is God! although some Christians do. Jesus does refer to himself many times as the “son of man”, so there is nothing wrong with Jesus describing himself as a man. Also maybe Jesus didn’t think this the right moment to say he was “the son of God”, which he does later in John 10:36.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Commets on Proverbs 8:23-27:

The Gospel of John, the fourth Gospel, was completed to its present form some seventy years after Jesus was raised up to heaven. This Gospel in its final form says one more thing about Jesus that was unknown from the previous three Gospels — that Jesus was the Word of God. John means that Jesus was God’s agent through whom God created everything else. This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus was God Himself. But John was saying, as Paul had already said, that Jesus was God’s first creature. In the Book of Revelation in the Bible, we find that Jesus is: “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14, also see 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15).

Anyone who says that the Word of God is a person distinct from God must also admit that the Word was created, for the Word speaks in the Bible saying: “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works...” (Proverbs 8:22).


Am I correct in thinking, that you believe Jesus is the firstborn of all creation?



Originally posted by Abuaisha
We find here that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).. So Jesus is not bringing himself into to the equation, together to the God. John 14:23 is misunderstood. People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe — Jesus or the people? Muslims and Christians agree that God is self-existent.


You are correct Jesus, is not greater than the farther and is not God, this is emphasized by Jesus many times in the New Testament. Having said that though, Jesus does bring himself into the equation with God by stating in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.". I believe this means in purpose and in spirit because of the further verses in John 14, where Jesus is saying he is in the Father.

The verses where Jesus is saying he is in the Father, are in the context of discussing the recieving of the Holy Spirit.

This does not negate Gods oneness because all things came from God, including the firstborn of all creation i.e. Jesus




Originally posted by Abuaisha
John 16:13 “He will speak.” ( Joecroft: According to you; you have experience Holy Spirit(Comforter). Did "HE" speak to you?
Jesus referred to the paraclete as ‘he’ and not ‘it’ seven times, no other verse in the Bible contains seven masculine pronouns. Therefore, paraclete is a person, not a Holy Spirit.


Yes, the Holy Spirit did speak.
The Holy Sprit is both Sprit and a person and the person is God.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
If you have experienced the Holy Spirit (Comforter), does the function of Holy Spirit matches what Jesus (PBUH) described..

John 16:14 “He will glorify Me.”
John 16:8 “he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.”
John 16:13 “he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak.”
John 14:26 “and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 16:13 “and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

Did you encounter all above functions from the Holy Spirit?


The first 3 definitely…
The last 2 I would say no…

I also experienced what is described in the verse below.


John 7:38
“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."




Originally posted by Abuaisha
Do you mean to say Holy Spirit = God Spirit + Jesus Spirit?


Yes, that’s exactly what I meant.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3 below


The Holy Spirit is a he because it’s a person, but IMO that person is God. i.e. Gods Spirit.



Continued...


- JC



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 



Continued…



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the one intended and not the Holy Spirit. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here.


It is not clear if the “Gospel of Barnabas” is written by an authentic disciple of Jesus. I am no expert on its history but from what I have read so far, I don’t believe it to be authentic.




Originally posted by Joecroft
Your Comment:" I agree that God is one but how many prophets do you know, have raised people from the dead and been raised from the dead themselves?"




Originally posted by Abuaisha
My Reply : Jesus (PBUH) was not acting alone. He was performing miracle with Command of God.


Yes, all Jesus power and authority came from God/Father but you have missed the point of my question. My point is, how many other prophets have raised people from the dead or been raised from the dead themselves. How many prophets have had God speaking directly through them, while they were living and walking around?

The answer is none!

That’s just one of the reasons why I believe Jesus is more than just a prophet.



- JC



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Hey LV



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
The reason some might not take the 'easy road map' as you say is for many reasons.
1, they do not have proof of Jesus being real.


I guess that’s where faith comes in, even if it’s just a starting point to get people to read the New Testament, which I would recommend as the best place to start.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
2, most of the Bible might not resonate with them...therefor, they would have issues with just picking what does resonate with them and leaving the rest behind.


I think Jesus resonates with everyone, it’s the words and doctrines of men, that people have problems with.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
3, no matter how you see the life of Jesus...many read that Jesus is a blood sacrifice for sins...and this is not going to resonate with many that are on a path of personal seeking. Most people that call themselves 'spiritualist' are not going to accept a book that is FULL of blood sacrifices and scapegoats for a persons wrongs and rights. Its one thing to say....'Yes, I think the accounts of Jesus in the Bible have some spiritual wisdom's...'....its another to read it and take it for all it says.


People need to stop letting others define what it means for them to believe in Jesus. The bible is the words of men, just as much as it is the word of God and people need to learn to discern between the two.




Originally posted by LeoVirgo
This is why I posted you that link....did you read it???? I think you will see how a person, through just reading a story, could have understanding of the importance of a 'offering of self'.


Yes I did read it!

A very deep story and well written.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
The idea that people are learning something about themselves on the path of Jesus...is no more or less right or wrong...for all paths can teach us something about ourselves if we are truly observing ourselves for a path of spiritual growth.


I hear what you are saying and have met many non Christians who are wonderful people, who care about many things and show love to people, just the same as my Christian friends do.

Getting back to the story you posted about 'offering of self', Jesus is a great example of just that. People can read of Jesus example and get to know what he is like and begin to see parts of his character. The thing is, Jesus is saying he is more than just a moral example.

Imagine you are reading about an orange, you read that the orange is orange in color, what it tastes like and that it grows on trees etc. You now know the likeness of an orange but if I gave you an orange to eat, you would then come to know and experience it.

Jesus is a great example but he is also saying, that we can come to know God through him and actually experience God, by receiving the Holy Sprit.



- JC


[edit on 7-6-2010 by Joecroft]



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 


Hello again!

Several things to add....and as always, this is just my take on things.

I dont think anyone is chosen by God...unless you say ALL are chosen by God.

I think teachers can offer alot....but there comes a point the individual must weigh and measure everything themselves through the Holy Spirit. I agree...many do not reach this point, at least that we see and witness, most seem to follow another's path.




I was so suprise to hear that you do not believe that God has send prophets & messenger, that doesn't mean that you dont believe in them. Am i right.. So i thought what this man is upto.


No...I do not believe in prophets foretelling the future...for it is up to us to mold our future, we are co-creators. Messengers....that is a toughy. I dont have alot of belief that God intervenes because we are to learn things through figuring, trial and error ect...we cant be just told how to do it...we must find our way to move the mountains and unite (to me, this is US bringing a 'heaven' to Earth, when we reach a point of unity and peace, then surely God is living through us ALL). I think the Holy Spirit can help guide us, if we are humbled and honest enough in our hearts...its not so much of a guiding as telling us what is best, but our inner nature becomes much different then our Earthly nature...the being begins to live for the ALL...in service of others....and their actions are going to be for a universal mean...not a mean of self.

Now I do think, through the intertwining of dimensions or existence...(not sure the word to use there) that past soul/spirit complexes can reach out to a loved on or to a being. An example is my brother visiting my mother after he died. She woke with the remembrance of a dream that she was in the kitchen talking with him and that she had poured a glass of milk in the kitchen before he' showed' up. So she awoke, remembering the dream, course being happy and sad of dreaming of him....but when she walked into the kitchen that morning...there sat her glass of milk.

I think there are states of the mind that can possibly be reached to become more in tuned with this world of 'in-between'....I think many NDE are real accounts of the being experiencing something. I think that our existence, and even the existence of the 'in-between' are both still very far from 'God'. My thoughts on what 'God' is are probably really far out there to many and its such a part of my personal path that I dont share that with others. When I try to think of words to begin to describe Thee...I can not. Words only limit Thee.

Ive seen enough and witnessed enough to know...this world is not all there is, this existence is not all there is. Also what I have witnessed, goes against many 'fixed' systems of belief. There are bits and pieces of them all that seem to be found...but just as well...there are bits and pieces of Earthly wisdom to be found within them also, not making any of them perfect.

My biggest issue with the Quran...is the idea of chosen ones. I once walked the path of believing God had such....but it is not something I will ever turn back to for the understanding of God not having chosen ones has took be places I would of never been and brought me understandings I would of never had. All I can do, is share what I have found or understand...and make sure to not claim it as a fact for others, but offer them the love and freedom to seek for themselves.

BTW....Im of wo-man *smiles*

The only future I find that is set in stone, that can be predicted or prophecised is that all souls find the way back to where they came from. That is how perfect Thee is and how perfect the cycle works. The moment we can all start to see nothing as happenstance, everything holds purpose, and we are to make things change here on this sphere....will be the time mountains do move. The events that will lead up to this happening are malleable...they are not fixed. There are many possibilities. Many of the prophecies...were not hard things to forsee in our future. Its not hard to see the Earth changes over times, just like we do. Its not hard to see that there will be much blood shed over the land that was thought to of been 'chosen' and its not hard to see what kind of future there would be when man started to think that a bloodline had 'chosen ones' in it.

Even though I dont find some of those things to be 'of ' God....I find them needed, for us to gain understanding of what our divine purpose is. Sometimes we have to walk the path that is not...to find the path that is. We learn from our past...anything that has happened in our past...was needed. Anything that will happen, is also needed. I dont think this existence is about us waiting on God...I think its more about God waits on us...to figure out what our prime image of 'us' is, as a whole unit, and what the prime image of this sphere is. I dont think it stops there either...I think it goes beyond the bounds of Earth.

Just offering you thoughts on 'where I come from' in my thinking.

I think the Quran, like the Bible, is too caught up on bloodlines and chosen people. I think this is Earthly processing man had to test...and is still testing. I mean no disrespect to your beliefs and growth as a being....if you grow as a spiritual being due to your seeking and understanding...then that is what matters.

My best to you and yours
LV



[edit on 7-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


I feel you, and I hear you. Like I said...people will have their personal reasons for not giving the story of Jesus the benefit of the doubt.

I think anyone with a humble heart can be aware of a good deed and a true offering from others when its there for them. It may be through a book, it may be through real life (Martin Luther King comes to mind) it may be through nature itself, offering us life to eat, shelter and water....to understand, what true offering of self is.

Im content in knowing there are many ways for one to find such a understanding, if they are paying attention.

All my best to you and yours and to all others
LV



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by Abuaisha
reply to post by helen670
 


Adolf Hitler was raised as a Roman Catholic. He was a Christian. We do find good and bad people in all religion. That does not make true message of a religion and their followers bad.


Hi Abuaisha/

I agree with you in the sense that there are good and bad people in all religions/faiths!
However, one must look at who the founder/teacher was of their religious beliefs and take it from there...
In my honest opinion and from what I have read there cannot be many truths,as I am sure you will also agree with this!
Not all Christians will be saved and if it wasn't for God's Mercy,we all would be in alot of trouble.
Orthodox Christianity teaches that God, the All-Merciful and Compassionate, will judge everyone according to what they have received and according to their deeds.


When the prophet of Islam started preaching his new religion in Mecca, he was conciliatory to Christians and Jews.
He told them,
"We believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God. "Surah 29:45.
This attitude changed completely after he gained strength.
Allah then tells him to.....

"Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior." Surah 9:29.
SOURCE

(this tax is still imposed to all Christians living in Constantinople!)


John 3:16... For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life....John 8:57.


ICXC NIKA
helen



posted on Jun, 8 2010 @ 07:21 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Hi Joe,

Thank you for your reply.

No doubt that Jews has a history of killings Prophets and Messengers of God. They new that Jesus(PBUH) came from God and he is a man in flesh and they found his mentioning in there scriptures;

Now the story goes like this..

When Jesus(PBUH) said I and the Father are one."(John 10:30) (Please note: the whole story is depend on this statement)

The necessary consequence of this statement is that Jesus is claiming unity with God in a way other people do not have. The Jews misunderstood that Jesus was claiming Deity. They were convinced, however, that He was just a man, not God in the flesh. If they were right, He would be committing blasphemy to claim oneness with God, and blasphemy was punishable by death. So, they took stones to kill Him.

Jesus(PBUH) responded by calling attention again to His miracles: His good works. He had done many, and obviously the power had to come from God. So, He asked which one of them was their justification for stoning Him.

No matter how many miracles He did proving He was from God, they were determined to find fault with Him. They ignored the evidence and attacked anything that seemed to imply that He was from God.

They responded that it was not His good works that led them to seek to kill Him but the fact He claimed to be God (I and the Father are one), though He was a man. So, their whole position again is based on their preconceived determination not to admit that He was from God.

But note again that the Jews here recognized Jesus’ statement (I and the Father are one) as a claim to Deity. The Jews attempted to ignore Jesus’ miracles and judge Him entirely on the basis of His teachings and whether or not they agreed with His teaching.

Jesus(PBUH)’ response is difficult in several ways. He cited a passage in which men were called “gods” — Psalm 82:6("I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'). In this passage, He was, apparently, speaking to the judges of Israel calling them gods. This is confusing, but apparently the idea is that they were representatives of God, acting in God’s place for the people. Hence, they are spoken of as gods. The word does not, of course, here mean that they really possessed Deity.

We may compare this to Exodus 4:16; 7:1,2, where God said Moses would be “as God” to Aaron. The word “as” was added by the translators (in 7:1,2), so the statement is that Moses was God to Aaron. This is explained to mean that God would reveal His word to Moses, then Moses would act as prophet in passing God’s words on. But Moses would pass the words to Aaron, who would then be Moses’ spokesman. So, Moses stood in relationship to Aaron like God stood in relationship to Moses. This explains the significance of the statement in Psalms 82. The judges were not gods in fundamental nature, just as Moses did not have the nature of God. But the role they filled made them like gods to the people, as Moses had a role in relation to Aaron that was like God.

Jesus appealed to this passage in their “law” — that which they themselves accepted as authority. He then argued that, if the Scriptures so spoke, how could they object if He Himself claimed to be the God’s Son (Son of God in the sense of serving God).

Jesus(PBUH)’ argument apparently stopped them temporarily from proceeding with their intent to kill Him. He could show where other men were called gods, so why should they object if He claimed to be one with God? They had to ponder this one.

By citing this passage, He showed that the term “god” could be used for people who were human and who were not the Father. Hence, it was not blasphemy for the term to be so used for Him.

to be continued..



posted on Jun, 8 2010 @ 08:47 AM
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continue..

These men, who were just humans, could be called “gods,” and even these Jews could not deny it since it was in their own law. But surely Jesus had presented much evidence (see next verses) that He too was from God and that He was much greater than those judges had been, therefore it was not proper to stone Him if He used the term “god” for Himself.

Note that Jesus(PBUH) powerfully confirmed the authority of Scripture by saying “the Scripture cannot be broken.” This showed the high esteem with which He held the Scriptures.

He expressed His relationship with God by saying the Father was in Him and He in His Father. This again implies Deity. The Jews again attempted to seize Jesus, but He escaped. Whether they simply wanted to arrest him or whether they again sought to kill Him (v31), we are not told. Perhaps His answers had given them sufficient reason to reconsider stoning him, but they were still angered by His claims that He and the Father were in one another.

I hope you understood the context of the wod "God's Son". Jesus(PBUH) trying to say when he said (God's Son) and he reminded the jews about OT "speaking to the Judge of Isreal calling them Gods".
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Jesus(PBUH) was the Word of God. Allah says in Quran

" O People of the Scripture(Jews & Christian) ! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah (Jesus PBUH), son of Mary, was(no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not; "Three (trinity)!" Cease ! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One LLah(God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.(Quran 4:171)"

"Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab(a praying place or a prive room). (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of Jesus (PBUH),. the Word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was !)]

Islamic point of view is that Jesus(PBUH) was the Word of Almight Lord. As i have mentioned in my post is the Word is created. Its a part of creation. And suprise to know that "pen" was created before "Word". Almight Lord ask pen to write down the destiny of all creation.

Hope the answer the question.
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“I and the Father are one.": See we all are the creation of the Creator. Creator cannot be one of us and we cannot be one of Him. But we do acknowledge that we all have spirit of Almight God.

Allah says in Quran :
And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). (The Noble Quran, 66:12)"

Inshallah, i'm going to open a new thread on "Role of Holy Spirit according to Books". We will discuss about it in details.

==
"The Holy Sprit is both Sprit and a person and the person is God. "
Spirit & Holy Spirit is also a part of a creation of a Creator. So the Creator cannot be a like or equal to His creation.

I also forget to mentioned other function of Holy Spriit if you have encoutner.

John 14:17 “the world neither sees him...”
John 14:17 “...nor knows him”

if i put above verses in your character of receveing Holy Spirit than the statement of John will become invalid. Because you have seen him as well as spoken to him. Right. What happen if many people like you say that they have also received the Holy Spirit than the situation becomes bad.

to be continued..



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