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The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice?

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posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:10 AM
reply to post by helen670


23. Bible says that God made Jesus “Lord”

Acts 2:36 “God has made this Jesus... both Lord and Christ.”

“Lord” is used in many ways in the Bible, and others beside God and Jesus are called “Lord.” For example:

1) property owners (Matt. 20:8)

2) heads of households (Mk 13:35)

3) slave owners (Matt. 10:24)

4) husbands (1 Pet. 3:6)

5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30)

6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26)

7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63)

“Lord” is not the same as “God.” “Lord” (the Greek word is kurios) is a masculine title of respect and nobility used many times in the Bible. If Jesus were God, then for the Bible to say he was “made” Lord would make no sense.

24. Bible says that Jesus was lower than angels

Hebrews 2:9 “But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.”

God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

25. Bible says that Jesus called the Father “my God”

Matt. 27:46 “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?”

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Rev. 3:12 “… the temple of my God… the name of my God… the city of my God… comes down out of heaven from my God.”

Jesus did not think of himself as God, instead Jesus’ God is the same as ours.

26. Bible says that God cannot be seen, but Jesus was

John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”

27. Bible says twice that Jesus was accused of being God, but he denied it

According to the Bible, on only two instances the Jews opposed Jesus on the basis that he pretended to be God or equal with God. Had Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, claimed to be God, he is likely to have been opposed on this basis more frequently. Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he denied the charges. In reply to the charge of being an equal with God, he says immediately:

John 5:19, 30 “The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do”; and directly after:

“I can of mine own self do nothing.”

In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the “son” of God (John 10:34-36).

This is unlikely to have been Jesus’ actual response. Hastings in “The Dictionary of the Bible” says, “Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful.” Grolier’s encyclopedia, under the heading “Jesus Christ,” says, “it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself.” A University of Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable research into newly found ancient documents concludes that:

“....The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are later additions.... what the church said about him. Such a claim of deity for himself would not have been consistent with his entire lifestyle as we can reconstruct. For the first three decades after Jesus’ death Christianity continued as a sect within Judaism. The first three decades of the existence of the church were within the synagogue. That would have been beyond belief if they (the followers) had boldly proclaimed the deity of Jesus.”

Assuming Jesus did say that he was “son” of God. What did it mean? We first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking.

to be continued... Inshallah (God willing)

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:17 AM
reply to post by helen670


First, most people think there are no other verses that contradict or give equal divine sonship to other persons in the Old or New Testament. But according to the Bible God had quite a few “sons”:

“Adam, which was the son of God.” (Luke 3:38).
“Israel is my son, even my firstborn.” (Exodus 4:22)
“I will be his father, and he shall be my son.” (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
“for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” (Jeremiah 31:9)
“Ye are the children of the Lord your God” (Deuteronomy 14:1)

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying, “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”

The word “son” cannot be accepted literally because in the Bible, God apparently addresses many of his chosen servants as “son” and “sons.” The Hebrews believed God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense. Therefore, it is obvious the expression “son of God” merely meant “Servant of God”; one who, because of faithful service, was close and dear to God as a son is to his father. Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, “son of God” signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. This can be seen in Acts 14: 11-13, where we read that when Paul and Barnabas preached in a city of Turkey, pagans claimed they were gods incarnate. They called Barnabas the Roman god Zeus, and Paul the Roman god Hermes.

Furthermore, the New Testament Greek word translated as “son” are “pias” and “paida” which mean “servant,” or “son in the sense of servant.” These are translated to “son” in reference to Jesus and “servant” in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible. So, consistent with other verses, Jesus was merely saying that he is God’s servant.

Additional Problems with Trinity

To a Christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:

Exodus 3:7 “And the Lord said: ‘I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters; for I know their pains.’

God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance. When a believer sins, he may come before God in sincere repentance to receive forgiveness. Indeed, the offer to humble oneself before God and be saved is made to all humankind.

Isaiah 45:21-22, cf. Jonah 3:5-10 “And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.”

Biblically, people can receive forgiveness of sins through sincere repentance sought directly from God. This is true at all times and in all places. There has never been a need for the so-called intercessionary role Jesus plays in attaining atonement. The facts speak for themselves. There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. What about the salvation of people before Jesus? Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin, nor is it in any way a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

to be continued...Inshallah (God Willing)

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:30 AM
reply to post by helen670


Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose:

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.”

Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death? Unless Jesus’ body never underwent “decay” during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo “decay” then he was not truly human.

Jesus in Islam

The Islamic view of Jesus lies between two extremes. The Jews, who rejected Jesus as a prophet, called him an imposter, while the Christians, on the other hand, considered him to be the son of God and worship him as such. Islam considers Jesus to be one of the greatest and most forbearing of prophets, in addition to Noah, Abraham, Moses and Muhammad, may God praise them. Jesus is also considered to be the Messiah as well. This is in conformity with the Islamic view of the Oneness of God, the Oneness of Divine guidance, and the complementary role of the subsequent mission of God’s messengers.

The message of God to humanity, which is to worship God and God alone and to live according to His instruction, was revealed to Adam (peace be upon him), who passed it on to his children. All the subsequent revelations to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and, finally, Muhammad are in conformity with that message.

Although the Quran does not present a detailed life-story of Jesus, it highlights the important aspects of his birth, his mission, his ascension to heaven. It also passes judgment on the Christian and Jewish beliefs concerning him. We will look at some of the truths which God revealed about Jesus in the Quran.

Born of a Virgin Mother

“And mention in the Book (the Quran), Mary, when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her a spirit from Us, (the angel Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. She said: ‘Verily, I seek refuge with the Most Gracious (God) from you, if you do fear God.’ (The angel) said: ‘I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.’ She said: ‘How can I have a son, when no man hath touched me, nor am I unchaste?’ He said: ‘So (it will be), your Lord said That is easy for Me (God): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (God), and it is a matter (already) decreed (by God).’” (Quran 19:16-21)

This fact, however, does not necessitate that Jesus is divine in essence or spirit, nor is he worthy of worship, for Adam’s existence was more miraculous than that of Jesus. If his miraculous birth were a proof that Jesus was God incarnate or His son, then Adam would have more right over this divinity than him. Rather, both are prophets who were inspired with revelation from God Almighty, and both were servants to Him living according to His commandments.

to be continue..

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:33 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Assuming Jesus did say that he was “son” of God. What did it mean? We first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking.

Hi Abuaisha/

The Language of His people?
His people are all that looked and followed in His teachings!

For when the time had fully come,
God sent forth His Son,
born of woman,
born under the Law,
to redeem those under the law,
so that we might receive adoption as sons (or, so that we all might be made sons).
And because you are sons,
God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts,
crying "Abba! Father!
" So through God you are no longer a slave but a son,
and if a son then an heir [of the Kingdom of God].
(Gal 4:4-7, The Christmas Epistle Reading in the Orthodox Church)
source LINK

Jesus Chris did not come just for a 'unique' set of people, but for all of mankind.
It was Jesus Christ that destroyed the 'Curse'(SIN)THAT CAUSED MAN TO BE AWAY FROM GOD.
many,many passages reveals Jesus Christ as the Son of God...

St. Paul writes: If by one man's offence death reigned by one [that is, Adam], much more they which receive abundance of Grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign by one,
Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:17).
He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:2).
And the Apostle Paul tells us: Ye are bought with a price (I Cor. 6:20, 7:23).
St. Paul even says that Christ was made to be sin for us and made a curse for us (II Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13).
Jesus Christ Himself spoke......
The Son of Man came to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28). In the Epistle to the Hebrews we read: Christ is the mediator of the new testament,
that by means of death,
for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament,
they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Heb. 9:15).
And in the book of Apocalypse: Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy Blood (Apoc. 5:9).


posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:35 AM
reply to post by helen670


“Indeed, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said to him: ‘Be!’ and he was.’” (Quran 3:59)


Muslims, like Christians believe that Jesus performed miracles. These miracles were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.

“Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! You bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’” (Quran 5:110)

God sent all prophets with miracles specific to the nation to whom they were sent to prove the veracity of their message. These miracles were not performed of their own accord; rather, they were only manifest in their hands by God's will. The miracles performed by Jesus were no different. The Jews were well advanced in the field of medicine, and the miracles which Jesus brought were of this nature, proving the truth of His message and in order to convince the Jews.

His Divinity

Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation, and all worship is to be directed towards Him alone.

This was the same message brought by all prophets of God, including Jesus. He never claimed any qualities of divinity, nor did he claim that he deserved to be worshipped. He did not say that he was the “son” of God or part of the “Trinity”, but rather that he was only a servant of God sent to the Jews to bring them back to the true religion, worshipping One God and following his instruction. The majority of the verses in the Quran which mention Jesus discuss this aspect. They prove that he was only taken as an object of worship as a result of lies which people invented against him. It confirms accounts of his life where Jesus himself clearly denies that he deserved any worship, and it supports the notion that the parables and examples which God has given showed his mortal nature, not his divinity or filial relationship to God. God narrates of Jesus in the Quran:

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary’ while the Messiah has said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord...’” (Quran 5:72)

God says about the belief that Jesus is part of a “Trinity”:

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘God is the third of three.’ (Rather) there is none worthy of worship except One (God). And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to God and seek His forgiveness? And God is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!” (Quran 5:73-75)

to be continued.....

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:37 AM
reply to post by helen670


And also:

“O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.’ Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. For God is indeed (the only) One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. And God is sufficient for a guardian.” (Quran 4:171)

God deems this belief as an enormity against His Essence:

“And they say: ‘The Most Merciful (God) has taken (for Himself) a son.’ Assuredly you utter a hideous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins; That they ascribe unto the Most Merciful a son, when it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Merciful that He should take a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Merciful as a slave.” (Quran 19:88-93)

On the Day of Judgment, Jesus again will free himself from this false attribution. God gives us a glimpse of what he will say when he is asked about why people worshipped him:

“And (beware the Day) when God will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides God?’” He will say, ‘Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what you commanded me – to worship God, my Lord and your Lord…’” (Quran 5:116-117)

In these verses, God proclaims that ascribing to Jesus the attribute 'son of God' or 'part of a Trinity' is indeed a great blasphemy. The reason for this returns to the key fundamental assertion that God is Unique and unlike any of his creation; as well as in His Essence, He is Unique in His Divinity, His Attributes and His Lordship. All of the above make up the strict monotheism which He revealed in His Scriptures, from them the first of the Ten Commandments:

“I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:1-3)

Ascribing a son to God is in clear opposition to that principle for which He created the Creation and sent prophets. God says in the Quran:

“And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” (Quran 51:56)

He also said:

“And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, (saying), ‘Worship God and avoid all false objects of worship…’” (Quran 16:36)

His Mission

As discussed earlier, the Quran clearly affirms that Jesus was a prophet, as well as the fact that he was no more than that. Prophets are indeed the best of creation. They are those whom God chooses to receive His revelation, yet at the same time, they are mere emissaries of God and do not deserve to receive worship. Jesus, as mentioned in the Quran, is no different than any of them in this respect.

Throughout the Quran, Jesus is identified fundamentally as a prophet of God sent to the Jews who had over time deviated from the teachings of Moses and other messengers.

“And (remember) when Jesus, son of Mary, said: ‘O Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of God sent to you, confirming the Torah (which came) before me...’” (Quran 61:6)

Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, was the last in the line of Jewish prophets. He lived according to the Torah, the Law of Moses, and taught his followers to do likewise. In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated:

to be continued...

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:41 AM
reply to post by helen670


Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, was the last in the line of Jewish prophets. He lived according to the Torah, the Law of Moses, and taught his followers to do likewise. In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated:

“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the (way of) the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

In this aspect, he and his message was no different than the previous prophets chosen by God, who all called to the worship of God and God alone, as well as to obedience to His commandments. As he was miraculously supported by God in his conception, birth, and childhood, he was also supported by numerous miracles to prove that he was a messenger from God. However, the majority of the Jews rejected his prophethood.

Not only did Jesus affirm the scriptures revealed before him, but he also foretold of another prophet to come after him. God says:

“And when Jesus, son of Mary, said: ‘O Children of Israel! Indeed I am the messenger of God unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who will come after me, whose name is the Praised One.’” (Quran 61:6)

This fact is also mentioned in the New Testament. Careful study shows that Jesus, peace be upon him, refers to the same prophet in John 14:16-17:

“And I will give you another Counselor (the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him), to be with you forever, even the Spirit of Truth.”

His Crucifixion

God clarified in the Quran that Jesus was not crucified; rather, it was made to seem that way to the Jews, and that God raised him to the Heavens. The Quran does not explain, though, who was the person crucified instead of Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him.

“…They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (another) was made to resemble him to them…” (Quran 4:157)

“God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise.” (Quran 4:158)

As such, Islam denies that Jesus came to this earth with the purpose of sacrificing himself for the sin of Adam, Eve, and the rest of humanity, freeing them from its burden. Islam strictly rejects the notion that any person bears the sin of another. God says:

“No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.” (Quran 39:7)

Also, Islam stresses the notion that God is able to and forgive all sins, if a person truly repents and then refrains from repeating it. God does not need any blood sacrifice for that, let alone descend in the form of man himself and die for every man's sins. Rather, God’s mercy extends to all creatures, believers and disbelievers alike. The door to forgiveness is open to anyone who seeks it.

The Second Coming of Christ

As Christians do, Muslims also believe in the return of Jesus the Messiah to earth, although his role and reason for his return does differ from what the Christians propose. He will return to earth first and foremost to prove his mortality and refute the false beliefs people held about him. He will live a normal life, marry, and also die as any other human. At that point, the matter will be clear concerning him, and all people will have believed that he was truly mortal.

“There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him (Jesus) before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.” (Quran 4: 159)

Jesus will also fight the false Christ, who will call people to the belief that he is God, and who will appear just before he returns. Jesus will defeat the antichrist, and all people will accept the true religion of God. The world will see a type of peace and serenity unfelt in history, all worshipping the same God, subservient to Him alone, and at peace with one another.

to be continued....

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:52 AM
reply to post by helen670



What has preceded was just a brief introduction to the truth which God revealed about Jesus in His final Book, the Quran, which he revealed to Muhammad. There is only One God who created one race of human beings and communicated to them one message: submission to the worship of God and God alone and following His instruction – known in Arabic as Islam. That message was conveyed to the first human beings on this earth, and reaffirmed by all of the prophets of God who came after them throughout all the ages.

Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, performed miracles and invited the Israelites to the same message of submission (Islam) as did all of the prophets who preceded him. He was not God, nor was he the ‘Son of God’, but was the Messiah, an illustrious prophet of God. Jesus did not invite people to worship himself; rather, he called them to worship God, Whom he himself worshipped. He confirmed the laws of the Torah which Prophet Moses taught; he lived by them, and instructed his disciples to follow them to the finest detail, after allowing those things which the Jews made illegal upon themselves. Before his departure, he informed his followers of the last prophet, Muhammad of Arabia, who would come after him, and instructed them to observe his teachings.

In the generations after Jesus’ departure from this world, his teachings were distorted and he was elevated to the status of God. Six centuries later, with the coming of Prophet Muhammad, the truth about Jesus Christ was finally retold and preserved eternally in the last book of divine revelation, the Quran. Furthermore, many of the laws of Moses, which Jesus followed, were revived in their pure and unadulterated form and implemented in the divinely prescribed way of life known as Islam, while many other aspects and injunctions of the laws which had been brought by the earlier prophets were lightened or dropped altogether.

Consequently, the reality of the prophets, their uniform message, and the way of life which they followed, can only be found preserved in the religion of Islam, the only religion prescribed by God for man. Furthermore, only Muslims today actually follow Jesus and his true teachings. Their way of life is much more in tune with the way of life Jesus practiced than any of the modern day “Christians.” Love and respect of Jesus Christ is an article of faith in Islam, and God stressed the importance of belief in Jesus in numerous places in the Quran.

Inshallah (God Willing) if you & me live alive and get a chance to meet Prophet Jesus and if we asked him a question What is your religion?
He will not say Judaism/Christianity. You will never find this two name in the Bible or OT. We would expect him to say. " Total Submission to the worship of the WILL of one true God" which in Arabic known as "Islam".

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 08:21 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Hi Abuaisha

As an Orthodox Christian, I try to follow Christ(we all fall short in the Glory of God) to follow in the teachings of Jesus Christ....He left us with ''Love one another''
and .......
Many other famous quotes and saying by Orthodox Christian Saints and Fathers of early Christianity....
St Seraphim of Sarov said "Acquire the spirit of peace and a thousand souls will be saved around you"!
Christ Himself is the Word of the Father and it is through Christ that we know God....not through the Bible!

Yourself as a Muslim, who's teachings and guidance do you follow?


posted on May, 29 2010 @ 09:11 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha


"The Parakletos or Holy Spirit was given as a gift to all Humanity."

"Parakletos needs no human intermediary to work in our lives."

"Parakletos is the only Witness we can rely on. And each of us can only know the Truth of this if we seek it within our own hearts and minds."

This weekend, Christians celebrate Pentecost, the descent of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the Church (Body of Christ) ten days after Jesus ascended into Heaven. The Spirit was poured out for all.

The Holy Spirit is not made manifest as an individual, but will rather manifest in the heart and life of all individuals who seek Truth.

Is it a tenet of your faith that Mohamed is the sole recipient of the Spirit?

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 09:29 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Jesus never said the paracletos was a human being!

Prophesy is but one of the gifts of the Spirit. Nowadays, prophesy is understood to refer only to foresight. The True meaning i.e., that prophesy is literally, The Word of God, seems to have been lost.

Jesus was indeed the greatest prophet the Bible recounts but there are other gifts of the Spirit that Jesus possessed; Healing, Prayer, Evangelism, are also gifts of the Spirit. Jesus had these in abundance.

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 10:05 AM
Sorry....made a error.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 10:10 AM
Did you know...true wisdom....will not just be given to all the common men?

Did you know...the greatest pearls of truth....will not be found in books because this defeats the entire purpose of us being true seekers that must figure and weigh and measure truth>?

Speak from your hearts, show us new things the Spirit has taught you on your personal paths.

I know it while being down on my knees and the guidance of the Spirit showing me understanding. I know that where ever there is life...there is the Holy Spirit. We are such creatures that can awaken it within us and to where it can be more then just the breath of us. Our bodies are made in such a genius awaken the Holy Spirit that offered herself to us. The greatest offering ever made was of the Holy Spirit to offer herself as life for our existence and experience. Through out the entire can find her...within life...where there is 'to and fro' as well. Man have abused her, used her, even called her a whore. We are the ones to bring the wedding together...we are the ones that are to bring a heaven to this Earth. There is no reason to seek salvation...this is about the all of us...this is about us doing the works...this is not about belief....we are spiritual beings...awakening...after we awaken...we have work to do. It is about a path of others....not a path of self. The path of self salvation (the idea of seeking rewards and heaven when you die) is a path of long as there is other selves still here learning and suffering. We are the ones the Spirit of God is waiting on to move the mountains. God is behind us, all around us, and waiting...the Spirit fills us and is waiting....Jesus will guide us and is always waiting for a knock at the door. He did not save anyone with his blood....he showed us the way...he led the first prints down the true path of 'offering' back to Earth what is of Earth...and offering back to Spirit what is of Spirit. He led the way to show us how important it is to live for the life of Spirit....and not get caught up in living for the life of this Earth if it comes down to it. Know within what life you live willing to walk the walk if you have to.

This is what one will find through the Spirit and Jesus if they go to Thee without biased ideas of what its all about. If you dare let go of the books and empty your mind of Earthly knowledge...the Holy Spirit will lead you in showing you what is of Earth and what is of Spirit in ALL of the books.

Dont take my word for it...and really, I am offering it to others that may still be reading these pages that are full of quotes from men long ago. I offer to others that still hold that fear that God wont love them if they seek a personal path to Thee instead of the path based on belief.

The Holy Spirit is real....Jesus can guide you....not because he is our savior...but because he has become part of the Divine Will for the All. Because he offered himself back to the Spirit of life. They will embrace you, comfort you, and guide you gently, at your own pace. There is no reason at all to ever fear them.

Dont take my word for it...let the Holy Spirit show you Theeself on your own path.

Im not here to discuss...just offering a different light then what is here.

My best always

[edit on 29-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:26 PM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

Hello LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
From what I understand....your honest heart, your pure will to seek daily and observe your footsteps here daily, your desire and effort to try to humble your thought process daily, your will to find a understanding in cleansing your bodily temple....these are ways of Spirit...and they lead a person to becoming more aware of the path of SPirit.

I’m not sure if you’re talking about me above or whether your speaking generally, about what leads a person to become more aware of the Spirit path. If you meant me, then thank you…

I have, fairly recently, received the “Holy Spirit” while I was reading John chapter 14 one night. I found that in my search/journey leading up to that point, that asking important questions, was sometimes more important than the answers themselves…I know that sounds kind of stupid, but in my experience, it was true.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I dont support God needing any killing of any creature for sins, I dont support that Jesus had to die for our sins....

Well, it was man who killed Jesus, not God.

I believe that God sent Jesus, to teach us to turn away from our sins and that Jesus life and teachings are more important than his death. It is the manner in how Jesus died for our sins, which is the important question to be asked.

I believe that God/Jesus knows the future before it happens and that by Jesus bringing his message, God knew that man would reject the truth and have Jesus killed/crucified. God knew that Jesus would be killed for speaking the truth but God sent him anyway, because he loves us…that is God’s grace. Simply put, Jesus brought the message, despite the consequences, and in this way died for our sins IMO.

Matthew 26: 27-28
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
For me, that verse just shows how important it was to those that wrote the writings of that time to still practice blood sacrifices and to tie this man Jesus into the practices and rituals of the OT....which he often did not seem to agree with much in the OT. There is also some other writings that seems to support that Jesus did not support the idea of blood sacrifices at all....that this was why he was so upset at the Temples, for the selling of animals for sacrifices in a Holy place. I think when Jesus complains about the Earthly practices of men....that this was one of the rituals he was talking about.

Yes, I know the verses you are referring to and that Jesus was not a big fan of animal sacrifices. As for the verse (Matthew 26: 27-28) if you look at the word blood, as relating to Jesus life and death, then the verse could be looked at differently.

Blood can only be poured out if there is a death and you can’t have a death without there first being a life.

So IMO, I see that verse as Jesus saying, my life is given for the sins of many.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Seek within you and find that personal guidance within in. It would do you much better then to just take anyone's word for it, weather it be in a book or here or anywhere.

Absolutely, and this is exactly what I have been doing from the beginning, in my search for God. Btw don’t take my word for what I have written above, try to seek out your own understanding, through the help of the Spirit.

I’m kind of torn between the two, I understand that Jesus wants us to seek the born of the spirit experience and to receive the Holy Spirit, which helps to guide us in our own lives, outside of the bible. On the other hand, in my experience, it was only by reading Jesus words, that I received the Holy Spirit.

Hope some of this helps…

- JC

posted on May, 30 2010 @ 03:37 AM
reply to post by helen670

Hi Helen,

What i understood from your text is that you are following the life and teaching of Paul (Saul), the true founder of Christianity. His teaching cannot be found anywhere in the teachings of Jesus or in those of prophets before him.

I storngly recommend the book "What Did Jesus Really Say?" by Mishaal Ibn Abdullah for an in-depth study on various Biblical verses which are often misinterpreted to supposedly prove the divinity of Jesus;

Contradiction in the Bible;
Christian pagan roots and parallels;
Muhammad in the Bible;
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gosphel of Barnabas;
What is Islam:
Miracles of the Quran...and lot more.

As a Muslim, I follow teaching of the Beloved Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). Who is the last and sealed of all prophethood. When Prophet Jesuse (PBUH) will come on the earth he will be following the sharia (Islamic Law).
You remember when Jesus (PBUH) came first time what he said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"(Gospel of Mathew). In his second coming he will be doing the same.

In otherword i can say we folow the teaching of Prophet Jesus(PBUH). The Ten Commandments.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Do you follow the commandments?

The first commandements which is very important so that others to be followed.

“The first of all the commandments is, ‘

Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’” (Mark 12:29)

“Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Do you follow this commandements? Whom do you worship? Do you worship the Lord of heavens and the earth? Or Do you worship "Jesus" (PBUH)?

posted on May, 30 2010 @ 09:25 AM
reply to post by Joecroft

Thanks for your great replys..I was actually pointing my posts more twards the last few people that keep arguing over the books.

I dont agree with everything you said...but we all do learn on different paths. You seem to be seeking with a very honest heart...Im sure where ever you are on your path, it is where you are to be.

I did reply to your earlier posts to me back on page 3...

All my best to you

[edit on 30-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on May, 30 2010 @ 11:38 AM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I dont agree with everything you said...but we all do learn on different paths. You seem to be seeking with a very honest heart...Im sure where ever you are on your path, it is where you are to be.

I’m not sure which part of my last post you disagree with but if you read between the lines, you will see, that I am actually in agreement with you about Jesus death not being about a blood sacrifice.

- JC

posted on May, 30 2010 @ 08:46 PM
reply to post by Joecroft

Disagree with may be a strong word...I have some issues with the word sin...for I think the the blueprint of the Universe seems to be set up in a way for us to learn as we go. I dont think we had to have Jesus to be forgiven for our sins (mabey I read your posts wrong?). I dont think there was any difference of our connection with God before the life of Jesus or after...but that he did show us the humble way and mabey we did need someone to do that.

I remember reading something about the life of Jesus and us being forgivin for our sins in your posts...but I very well could of misinterpreted what you said about that or we do see it a bit differently.

The word 'sin' imply's that we do things wrong...but I must is the wrongs in my life that have taught me the most about myself. I cherish the mistakes I have made just the same...and forgive myself for the things I did not know or understand. Some may find that odd...that I forgive MYSELF.

Edit to add..I went back and reread...I think we do see it a bit different, but our own perspectives are not 'bad'...for we must see things on a personal view point. Saying that...I dont think another can die for anothers sins. I think this is why we all incarnate with our own flesh and blood..carrying our own cross's. I dont think another persons death can save anyone else fro their sins. Again...this is just my perspective and I dont claim such as a Universal truth for everyone. Just offering what I understand and this understanding can be still very limited. I get the feeling you are going to be able to see where I am coming from even if we dont see it all the same.

Would love to get your feedback as always!

[edit on 30-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on May, 31 2010 @ 03:11 AM
reply to post by teapot

Hi Teapot,

Just like in Christianity, we the Muslims also believe in the Holy spirit, however so our belief in the Holy spirit is quite different than the Christian belief on this matter. However so who is the Holy spirit that the Quran often refers to? :

In Quran Allah referes Angel Gibreel as Rooh al-Qudus (Holy Spirit) and al-Rooh al-Ameen( Trustworthy Spirit).

Allah Almight says many place in Quran:

(Remember) when Allah will say ( on the Day fo Resurrection)." O ?Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rooh ul Qudus [Holy Spirit (Angel Jibreel (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when i taught you writings, Al-Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, a figure like that of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when i restrained the Childred of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) as you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers amoung them said: " This is nothing but evident magic.'"(Quran : 5:110)

"And We gave ?Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus [Holy Spirit (Angel Jibreel (Gabriel)] (Quran : 2:87)

"Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ?Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rooh ul Qudus [Holy Spirit (Angel Jibreel (Gabriel)]" (Quran : 2:253)

"Say (O Muhammed SAW) Ruh-ul-Qudus [ Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel)] has brought it (The Quran) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allah as Muslims).(Quran : 16:102)

So the Holy spirit has brought down the Quran to the prophet Muhammad, this is non other than the Angel Jibreel, this is what the Quran says concerning Jibreel.

"Say: ( O Muhammed Peace be upon Him): "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel (let him die in hus fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Quran) down to your heart by Allah Permission, confirming what came before it [(i.e. the Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and the guidance and glad tidings for the believers. (Quran : 2:97)

So as you can see the Holy spirit can be non other than the angel Gibreel, the Holy spirit brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers, the angel Jibreel brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers! Hence the Holy Spirit is Jibreel and Jibreel is the Holy spirit!

So in conclusion the Holy Spirit in Islam is not God, nor a semi-God, the Holy Spirit in Islam is non other than the angel Jibreel.

And Allah Knows Best!

posted on May, 31 2010 @ 04:29 AM
reply to post by teapot


The bible says the same thing:
Luke 1:26-27 "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

Angel Gabriel (S) is the "Holy Ghost" and the Holy Ghost is the "Holy Spirit".

In the Greek Septuagint O.T. (LXX) pneuma is for spirit and in Hebrew Ruah is for Spirit and in Arabic Rooh is for Spirit.

However, there is a difference between "Rooh-alqudus' and the "Rooh". The word "Rooh" translated as "Spirit" where else the word "Rooh-alqudus" translates as "Holy Spirit" in the Qur'an and always refers to Angel Gabriel (S) as I have explained in my previous post.

Here it says in Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

In Qur'an it says: "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples". (Qur'an 21:91)

Here also: "And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)." (Qur'an 66:12)

Prophet Jesus(PBUH) was described as a Spirit proceeding from Allah (Ruhun minhu): "… Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word (BE), which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him (Roohun minhu)…(Quran 4:171)

In this verse Angel Gabriel was addressed as Rooh: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (Qur'an 19:17)

Nevertheless, it is very clear that Allah has breathed ‘his Spirit' (min-Rooh) into Mary by way of angel Gabriel. Allah did no breath Gabriel (S) into her. Same thing happen at the creation of man: "But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit, And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!" (Qur'an 32:9)

Also here, He Allah Almighty says in Quran: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." (Qur'an 38:72)

Here Allah strengthens Jesus(PBUH) with "Rooh-alqudus [Holy Spirit who is Angel Gabriel]": Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit… (Qur'an 5:110)

Nothing new, it also in the bible according to
Matthew3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him"

But he Allah also said when: "They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: ‘The spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)'" (Qur'an 17:85)

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