It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice?

page: 7
2
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 09:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by Abuaisha
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


continue..

Holy Spirit was present long before Jesus and during his ministry

Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:2

And the Spirit of God rushed upon Saul when he heard these words, and his anger was greatly kindled. 1 Samuel 11:6

It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Luke 2:26

Since, the Spirit is in all human beings, the Quran does not regard Jesus as being more than human. But he as a great messenger of God.

Thank you for reading and your patient.

Above all good is from Almighty Lord and any mistake or error is from me.





Hi there!

I appreciate all that you wrote...but the many words are not needed to sum up a point. Int your many words...I had a hard time finding your point to me. Was it that the Quran explains some of the things I had said? Was it that you felt I was not understanding something and that the Quran has the answer?

All I can say to you is what I experience as contentment along my path. One of the things I do not find contentment in is calling 'God' by a name, such as Allah. But I dont find that a issue if others are content with that...as long as they offer me the same respect in the same manner.

Many things you pointed out ring true...but I do not think any book holds all the answers concerning the spiritual nature.

I think you were trying to point out to me how the Quran see's Jesus as a messenger of God...being that mankind has always had access to the Holy Spirit. If that was your point in your reply's....I thank you for that and find great wisdom in those words.

All my best
LV




posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 03:00 PM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 




Hello LV



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Like I said...its not bad we see things differently, it only shows we have reasons for understanding it from different perspectives.


I’m not sure why I’m mentioning this but I learned along time ago, that sometimes when you win, you actually lose, and sometimes when lose, you really win. It’s not always about winning but more about the understanding that is gained along the journey; that is the important thing.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I know what the book says...I know it says that the Jesus had to come in order for us to be able to receive the Holy Spirit. But through what I only know to describe as a guidance through the Bible and understanding....we have never been denied the Holy Spirit, it has always been available to us, and its not ever going to be takenaway.

I dont mind at all discussing it all here if you want to...if you want to have a discourse about it. I guess I would start by asking you specifically, explain what you understand within you, why the Holy Spirit could of not came to us before the life of Jesus?


You are absolutely correct, the Holy Spirit was always available even before Jesus walked the earth as a man. Jesus didn’t come so that we could receive the Holy Spirit for the first and only time, he came so that EVERYONE who believes in him could receive it.

Prier to Jesus arrival, the Holy Spirit was always around but was mainly only given out to wise men, priests and prophets etc

Jesus, with Gods help, planned to change all that by coming and teaching us directly about the Father/God.

IMO Jesus and God the Father; are the Holy Spirit because of the following verse.


John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.



I believe that when you receive the Holy Spirit, you not only receive God/Fathers Spirit but Jesus Spirit also, at the same time.


John 16: 7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.



In the above verse, the reason the Holy Spirit will not come, is because Jesus is actually a part of the Holy Spirit, and that is why Jesus is saying he must go away before we can receive it.

Jesus dies, is resurrected and ascends back to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is available again but the difference is, is that the Holy Spirit is now available, to all those who believe in Jesus. And Jesus actually tells us what it means to believe in him (Jesus) and that it means to believe in the one who sent him i.e. God/Father.


- JC



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 09:20 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


Much love to you Joecroft, you make me smile....but its all not that complicated (course it took me 34 years to figure that out).

I dont think its that Jesus is a part of the Holy Spirit...but that the Holy Spirit was a part of Jesus...and Jesus showed us, this is the exact same wtih us all.

Just because a person accepts Jesus...I dont think that is always a awakener to the Spirit within. Its about a person inner nature, their inner seeking, their honest intentions for seeking and accepting. We must have understanding in our path, not just acceptance.

I do think Jesus can become a part of you...and I have experience the spiritual being of Jesus. Very gentle, very patient, very kind. Comforting, nurturing....just like the Holy Spirit is.....but I think the natures are the same because he lived for the life of Spirit, not of Earth...therefore, the Spirit, does become you. He has knelt with me, he has hung his head with mine, he was besides me, not in front or above....he humbled me, due to his own humbleness. But these are personal things...I share them with you but dont want anyone to take them as fact. It is all there, it is offered, through seeking with a humbled heart. I tell people, seek it for yourself. I have no intentions of going around ATS or anywhere for that matter and say...'Ive met Jesus'.

It is all perfect, the Universe and the heavens together teach us how to sift out our truest nature, so then we will see Gods truest nature. Even for those that still have much to learn from Earth....they will have their time.

Much love
LV



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:30 PM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 





Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Much love to you Joecroft, you make me smile....


Thanks, you make me smile too…I think it maybe contagious.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I dont think its that Jesus is a part of the Holy Spirit...but that the Holy Spirit was a part of Jesus...
and Jesus showed us, this is the exact same wtih us all.


Well, you are actually expressing, exactly the same thing here. Jesus is saying in my signature, that both he and the Father, will be in us, when we receive the Holy Spirit. We all have our own individual spirit but we are not connected spiritually to God, until we receive the Holy Spirit.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Just because a person accepts Jesus...I dont think that is always a awakener to the Spirit within. Its about a person inner nature, their inner seeking, their honest intentions for seeking and accepting. We must have understanding in our path, not just acceptance.


I should just say that I am talking about these thing, from the perspective of someone who has recently received the Holy Spirit. The things I am discussing are spiritual in nature and are something that has to be experienced, rather than just trusted. Don’t take my word for any of what I have written but instead try to seek it out for yourself.

Most of my searching and seeking, has actually taken me quite a long time. I agree with what you are saying above about a persons nature and desire to seek. I also believe that God approaches people in different ways, depending on their nature and I am pretty sure that God wants us all to search for the truth.

I also think, like you said, that it is wrong just to accept things, up to a point. Faith in God initially, allows us to seek out the truth but God is someone who is meant to be experienced and not just accepted by faith. The way to come to know God and experience God, is described by Jesus in the bible, especially where he talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I do think Jesus can become a part of you...and I have experience the spiritual being of Jesus. Very gentle, very patient, very kind. Comforting, nurturing....just like the Holy Spirit is.....but I think the natures are the same because he lived for the life of Spirit, not of Earth...therefore, the Spirit, does become you.
He has knelt with me, he has hung his head with mine, he was besides me, not in front or above....he humbled me, due to his own humbleness. But these are personal things...I share them with you but dont want anyone to take them as fact. It is all there, it is offered, through seeking with a humbled heart. I tell people, seek it for yourself. I have no intentions of going around ATS or anywhere for that matter and say...'Ive met Jesus'.


Yes, seek with an open heart but where do we seek? Where do we start? Wouldn’t it be great, if we had a map lol.

Jesus is the roadmap



- JC



posted on Jun, 5 2010 @ 05:45 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


In the name of Allah(Lord), the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Hi Joecroft/LV,

Thank you for your reply and comments. I will try to comments on the part of your quoting which is hard to accept require authentic proof from the Books.

Regarding the Matthew 26:62-66, what you understood is the text but what are the context?

One argument often raised by Christians in order to try and prove the deity of Christ is that they say that the Jews accused Jesus of committing blasphemy. However, I am here to argue that the Jews misunderstood them and that Jesus never did commit blasphemy. We will also examine the real reason why the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy.

Here is one passage in which the Jews accuse Jesus of committing blasphemy...

John 10:31-39 :
31) Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32) but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33) "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34) Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods" 35)' If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken- 36) what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37) Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38) But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39) Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Jesus over here is rebuking the Jews for how they don't understand scripture. Jesus then says in verse 37 that if he does the works of the Father (obviously because nothing he does is of his own authority (John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.) and he is doing what God is commanding) then they should believe that he is God's son (son of God in the sense that he is serving God) and that they will know that the Father is in him and that he is in the Father (this shows oneness of purpose, see similar examples in John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me).

Jesus told them the real reason why they wanted to kill him...

John 8:37-40 :

37) I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38) I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. " 39) "Abraham is our father," they answered. If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do what Abraham did. 40) As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

Jesus is accusing them of killing him simply because they do not like or want to accept his teachings. Jesus clearly stated to them that he is a MAN who was telling them the truth that he heard from GOD. NOT THAT HE IS GOD!!!!!!!!

The Jews were so desperate to convict Jesus of death. They tried everything...

Mark 14:55-63

55) The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any. 56) Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. 57) Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him:

to be continue.Inshalalh



posted on Jun, 5 2010 @ 10:09 AM
link   
reply to post by Abuaisha
 


I agree with what you are pointing out...but I do hope you seek beyond the books, for someone of your passions and love for the Spirit...well, there is more then the books to be offered.




Jesus is accusing them of killing him simply because they do not like or want to accept his teachings. Jesus clearly stated to them that he is a MAN who was telling them the truth that he heard from GOD. NOT THAT HE IS GOD!!!!!!!!


Ive been saying the above for some time now...

Jesus was a marker to show what men were ready for and what they were not. And even he....said...to forgive them....they know not what they do (well according to the book anyways, I was not there). But...I find things I can have a spiritual understanding in...and it would seem of Jesus's nature to say such a thing right before he offered his life of flesh back to Earth.



posted on Jun, 5 2010 @ 10:25 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


Hello Joe (is Joe ok?)

I just want to touch on something...yes we see many things in the same light of spirit...and it is wonderful to walk that path with you and share that.

But I want to show you how I dont focus as much on Jesus....for the bigger picture. It may be my personal guide that I seek out the most...but it is not a absolute for all people. There are ways to know God, without ever reading about Jesus. And you might totally agree with what I am saying...and it may be that you have chosen Jesus as your personal path, and that is great...but he is not THE road map, there are many paths.

In fact, the idea that Jesus is tied to blood sacrifices...makes Jesus a very dangerous, false, road map. Some one thinking they are following in the way...just to later find, this was a very dark and earthly practice that was tied to Jesus by the fault of man.

So anyways....lets look at what you said...




Prier to Jesus arrival, the Holy Spirit was always around but was mainly only given out to wise men, priests and prophets etc Jesus, with Gods help, planned to change all that by coming and teaching us directly about the Father/God.


Personally, I am unsure who exactly to call the wise men...I am unsure that may of the priests were touched by the Spirit...and I dont hold many prophets in high regard. Again...personal paths are not facts or truth for all....for what a individual understands as truth is due to the eyes of the observer and their experiences. I would like to point out that there was probably more women on a humbled path of being nurturers, comforters, and silent seekers....that grow to know the nature of God and the Holy Spirit of God....more so then priests. I picture also, a humbled Indian woman seeking through what she called, the Great Spirit....knowing nothing of the history of the OT or that land....and I see her....finding God.

It depends on the nature of ones self....and what they are willing to see. If someone personally things that the bad people must be punished....that they should not be allowed second chances to learn....well then the belief they chose will reflect THEM. Our beliefs are markers, for what we have understanding of in spiritual wisdom. There are many paths that are markers for the soul...to mark them as what they are still in need of learning.

I would like to share a thread with you, the only thread I have ever had with not one single response from anyone. But I would like to show you....there is a similar link in this story I posted in the thread....with the offering of the man Jesus. I would then like to show you again....someone in another land...could read this story...and never know Jesus....or the Bible....and they could learn, through what resonates with them and your inner light within them....they could learn....all about the nature of a humbled soul, and a path to God. It is kind of long...but the message is the same...it is a message, of serving others, offering yourself, to the ALL, the purpose, of souls, is service to others.

My point, Jesus can be A road map...but the Holy Spirit can be found on many trails.

Please dont think Im nit picking...please please...we agree on so much, I think talking about the little tid bits where we may see just a bit different, is a very healthy thing for 2 people to do. It is what me and my friends in the real world do...we discuss...down to the nitty gritty *smiles*

The offering-The Banyan Deer-Buddist
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Much love
LV

[edit on 5-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 01:04 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


continue...

Mark 14:55-63

55) The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any.
56) Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree.
57) Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58) "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.' "
59) Yet even then their testimony did not agree.
60) Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"
61) But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62) "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63) The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked.
64) "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"

You can see that they were so desperate that they had to get false witnesses to testify against Jesus. But that didn't even work. Then when Jesus said that he is God's son they went crazy and accused him of blasphemy out of sheer desperation to have him killed. But I already quoted Jesus in John 10:31-39 in how he defends himself against this accusation and how he shows the misunderstanding that the Jews had of scripture.

Even today Christians admit that the Jews misunderstood certain parts of scripture...

Conclusion
No where does Jesus commit blasphemy. This was only a sheer desperation by the Jews at the time to have any excuse for Jesus to be killed. They did not understand scripture properly and we clearly saw Jesus rebuking them for that. So this argument of accusations of blasphemy against Jesus proving Jesus made blasphemous claims sinks down to the seabed where it belongs.

So, Jesus being called "Son of God" does not mean anything about him being part of GOD or GOD Almighty Himself. It simply means "Servant of God" since Jesus existed among Jews and preached the Gospel to them.

As i have mentioned in my earlier post the term "Father" in that day and age was used by the Jews in the same sense that Christians use the word "father" today to address a preist. It was not meant to be taken literally.

---
Commets on Proverbs 8:23-27:

The Gospel of John, the fourth Gospel, was completed to its present form some seventy years after Jesus was raised up to heaven. This Gospel in its final form says one more thing about Jesus that was unknown from the previous three Gospels — that Jesus was the Word of God. John means that Jesus was God’s agent through whom God created everything else. This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus was God Himself. But John was saying, as Paul had already said, that Jesus was God’s first creature. In the Book of Revelation in the Bible, we find that Jesus is: “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14, also see 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15).

Anyone who says that the Word of God is a person distinct from God must also admit that the Word was created, for the Word speaks in the Bible saying: “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works...” (Proverbs 8:22).

We find here that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).. So Jesus is not bringing himself into to the equation, together to the God. John 14:23 is misunderstood. People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe — Jesus or the people? Muslims and Christians agree that God is self-existent.



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 01:55 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


continue..

John 16: 7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.”

In this verse, Jesus promises that another “Comforter” will appear, and thus, we must discuss some issues concerning this “Comforter.”

As i have mentioned in my previous post. The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’ Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.

The ho parakletos is a person in the Greek language, not an incorporeal entity. In the Greek language, every noun possesses gender; that is, it is masculine, feminine or neutral.

In the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16 the ho parakletos is actually a person. All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer and the pronoun “he” is used when referring to the parakletos.

The NT uses the word pneuma, which means “breath” or “spirit,” the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for “spirit” used in the OT. Pneuma is a grammatically neutral word and is always represented by the pronoun “it.”

All present day Bibles are compiled from “ancient manuscripts,” the oldest dating back the fourth century C.E. No two ancient manuscripts are identical.All Bibles today are produced by combining manuscripts with no single definitive reference. The Bible translators attempt to “choose” the correct version. In other words, since they do not know which “ancient manuscript” is the correct one, they decide for us which “version” for a given verse to accept. Take John 14:26 as an example. John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But the “ancient manuscripts” are not in agreement that the “Parakletos” is the ‘Holy Spirit.’

When we continue reading beyond chapter 14:16 and chapter 16:7, we find that Jesus predicts the specific details of the arrival and identity of the parakletos(Comforter). Therefore, according to the context of John 14 & 16 we discover the following facts.

John 16:13 “He will speak.” ( Joecroft: According to you; you have experience Holy Spirit(Comforter). Did "HE" speak to you?
Jesus referred to the paraclete as ‘he’ and not ‘it’ seven times, no other verse in the Bible contains seven masculine pronouns. Therefore, paraclete is a person, not a Holy Spirit.

Jesus is called a parakletos
“And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1). Here we see that parakletos is a physical and human intercessor.

Jesus describes the function of the other Parakletos(Comforter)

If you have experienced the Holy Spirit (Comforter), does the function of Holy Spirit matches what Jesus (PBUH) described..

John 16:14 “He will glorify Me.”
John 16:8 “he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.”
John 16:13 “he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak.”
John 14:26 “and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 16:13 “and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

Did you encounter all above functions from the Holy Spirit?
------
"I believe that when you receive the Holy Spirit, you not only receive God/Fathers Spirit but Jesus Spirit also, at the same time."

Do you mean to say Holy Spirit = God Spirit + Jesus Spirit?

to be continue...



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 02:10 AM
link   
The Gospel Of John....

IN the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
The above is a Prophecy come to light in the New Testament!



The Theologians of the early Christians were in the Spirit of God,they taught 'humility' and forgviness of one's enemies.....
Death was destroyed by the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ...therefore the Son of God Humbled Himself for the whole world....

If one was to guide us to what the Bible is saying, it is those that Jesus Christ left in His teachings and appointed them to preach...not some new Modernist ideas of later falssified teachings of various faiths.


Col. 2:9 "In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
Not three seperate Gods, but One God in three

The Trinity found in Isaiah 6.3,8.
The triple holy hymn sung by the angel(v3).
In verse 8 God says......."who will I send and who will go for us".
God uses both the singular and plural to refer to Himself.

The repitition of Holy, Holy, Holy in Isaiah 6.3 assumes a triune God (cf. compare this triple repititon with Rev 8.13)
Revelation 13.... And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe, woe, woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

*Genesis 18:1-3, concerning Abraham:
"And the Lord appeared unto him at the oak of Mamre . . . And he (Abraham) lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, three men stood by him... and he bowed himself toward the ground and said,
My Lord, if now I have found favor in Thy sight, pass not away, I pray Thee, from Thy servant."
Blessed Augustine says of this: "Do you see that Abraham meets Three but bows down to One . . . Having beheld Three, he understood the mystery of the Trinity, and having bowed down to One, he confessed One God in Three Persons."
*..EDIT forgot to adda previously....




On the Incarnation~

The Trinity in the Old Testament

The early Christian Fathers

ICXC NIKA
helen

[edit on 6/6/2010 by helen670]



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 02:46 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


continue..

For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".

A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3 below

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)

We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit [a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood. John 4:6.

for God has revealed them to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:10

Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the one intended and not the Holy Spirit. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here.

Something i forget to mentioned in my previous post. Jesus (peace be upon him) called a parakletos

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1)

Notice how the translators have managed to translate this exact same word one way (advocate) in reference to Jesus (peace be upon him) and another (comforter) with regard to the coming "parakletos." Why would they want to do such a thing? The reason is that the translators did not want the Christians, after reading..

"we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

to then read

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another advocate(parakletos)."

Can we see why this would make them nervous?

Well, what was Jesus (peace be upon him)? He was a prophet! Read:

"...This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." (Matthew 21:11) and "..Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people" (Luke 24:19
.


Muhammad (peace be upon him) was also a prophet of God. I have already mentioned in my previous posts that Jesus (peace be upon him) was neither part of God Almighty, but an elect messenger of God.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another advocate(parakletos)

Notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Spirit then how many Holy Ghost/Spirits are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (peace be upon him) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (peace be upon him), a human being and a prophet, not a Holy Ghost/Spirit.

to be continued..Inshallah



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 03:10 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


continue..

The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" [al'-los]: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" [het'-er-os].

The Arabic word "Muhammad" is an expression which means "The honorable one" or "The glorified one" or "The admirable". Prophet Muhammad was the first in the Middle East to be named "Muhammad".

Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one.He called that predicted human prophet "Periklytos". This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek.

Some research require on "Periklytos". Hopefully, you will get the answer. Does it mean "Human Prophet" or "Holy Spirit"?

---

Your Comment:" I agree that God is one but how many prophets do you know, have raised people from the dead and been raised from the dead themselves?"

My Reply : Jesus (PBUH) was not acting alone. He was performing miracle with Command of God.

John tells us that Jesus cannot do anything by his own when he quotes Jesus as saying: “By myself I can do nothing...” (John 5:30). This agrees with what we learn about Jesus from other Gospels.

In Mark, for example, we learn that Jesus performed miracles by a power which was not within his control. This is especially clear from an episode in which a woman is healed of her incurable bleeding. The woman came up behind him and touched his cloak, and she was immediately healed. But Jesus had no idea who touched him.
Mark describes Jesus’ actions thus: “At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’” (Mark 5:30). His disciples could not provide a satisfactory answer, so Mark tells us: “Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it.” (Mark 5:32). This shows that the power that healed the woman was not within Jesus’ control. He knew that the power had gone out of him, but he did not know where it went. Some other intelligent being had to guide that power to the woman who needed to be healed. God was that intelligent being.

It is no wonder, then, that in Acts of the Apostles we read that it was God who did the miracles through Jesus (Acts 2:22).



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 04:01 AM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Hi Leo,

Hope you are doing well.. In my previous post i was trying to answer your question..

"...explain what you understand within you, why the Holy Spirit could of not came to us before the life of Jesus?"

That was an explanation of (Sprit, Holy Spirit & Soul) in the light of Quran.

Yes for your kind knowledge, "Allah" is GOD's Name, "Elaw" "Eloi" means "GOD" in Aramaic.

Why did Jesus choose to say the Aramaic "Eloi" to the Hebrew speaking people?

This excellent article i found shows from Hebrew sources that Genesis 1:1 said "Allah". It proved from Hebrew sources with images that GOD Almighty's original Holy Name was indeed "Allah".

Genesis 1:1

B're# bara ELOHIM et ha-shama'im, V'et ha-arets.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Note: Ever Name has a meaning, but you cannot translate the Name.

While Christians will forever speculate on the word "Elohim". Honest Hebrew speakers would admit that this archaic word for God has a history that is lost to us.

Regardless, (Elohim) is a plural forum of a more basic root-word for God, (eloh).S o one of the basic Hebrew words for God, (eloh), can easily be pronounced alah without the diacritical marks. Not surprisingly, the Aramaic word for God is (alah). The Arabic word for God, Allâh.

Interestingly enough, there is proof from a Christian source that clearly demonstrates the above. Prophet Daniel called their God as "Elah".

But "Allah" sounds different than the Hebrew "Yahweh"!

Yahweh, also means "the Eternal", which means "Al-Samad" in Arabic. It's just a title!. In Islam, GOD Almighty Allah has 99 Names/Attributes, out which one is Al-Samad "the Eternal". Allah Almighty called Himself "Al-Samad" in the Noble Quran (Noble Verse 112:2). I am willing to address Allah Almighty from now on by the "Al-Samad" title (Yahweh in Hebrew) and not by "Allah Almighty" (His Holy Name) if that's going to make Christians understand Islam and embrace it!

One thing that many non-Hebrew speaking Jews and Christians mistake about is the name of GOD Almighty in the Bible. "Yahweh" in Hebrew means "The LORD" or the "The GOD". It is not a name.

Judaism teaches that while God's name exists in written form, it is too holy to be pronounced. The result has been that, over the last 2000 years, the correct pronunciation has been lost. Jews have no idea what the exact pronunciation is from their Holy Scriptures and resources.

About 3,500 years ago, God spoke to Moses, saying: 'Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: The LORD [Hebrew: YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: This shall be My name forever, this My appellation for all eternity.' (Exodus 3:15; Psalm 135:13)"

"....the four Hebrew consonants YHWH (Yahweh) that in their Latinized form have come to be known over the centuries in English as JEHOVAH."

So the word "YHWH" or "Yahweh" is not the ORIGINAL name, but the appellation (title) for the Almighty GOD. This is perfectly fine, because Jews, Christians and Muslims call on to GOD Almighty as "The LORD" or "The GOD", which means "Yahweh" or "YHWH" in Hebrew and "Al-Rab" in Arabic. They are indeed GOD Almighty's title. But they are NOT His original Name!

Allah" on the other hand is a name. It is the name of GOD Almighty. Below, above i have given you a proofs from the Aramaic language that the name of GOD Almighty was indeed "Allah".

Simple common sense test

How can a title beginning with "the" be a name? If I call you "the man", as it is a common slang for a person to be called. would that really make your name "the man"?

How difficult is it to comprehend that a title beginning with "the" can never be a name! Let alone being an original name!



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 09:00 AM
link   
We can either accept what is written in the Scriptures, or we cannot!
We cannot take away and add whichever suits us for the time being.



The Title is not 'THE', but
''Son Of man', in other words eg,in the Greek, it is ...υἱῷ ἀνθρώπου

Christ answered the chief priests when asked if he was the messiah
"I am,
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven."(Mk 14.62)

Right before the Transfiguration accounts,
Christ tells his disciples,
"For whoever is ashamed of me and my words,
of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when he comes in His own glory and in His Fathers and of the holy angels.
But i tell you truly,
there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Kingdom of God (Lk 9.26-27)

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

The word of God calls the Saviour the Lamb of God...
“foreordained before the foundation of the world” (1 Peter 1:20).

Here are many titles for '' the son'' as you will see are different in meaning...

The Saviour, in giving authority to the Apostles before His Ascension,
told them very clearly that He Himself would not cease to be the invisible Shepherd and Pilot of the Church.
“I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world” (every day constantly and inseparably) (Matt...28:20).
The Saviour taught that He,
as the Good Shepherd,
had to bring in also those sheep who were not of this fold,
so that there might be one flock and One Shepherd (John 10:16).
“All power as given unto Me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations” (Matt....28:18-19).


For an unbeliever theologizing is without effect, because Christ Himself, for unbelievers, is “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense” (1 Peter 2:7-8; see Matt. 21:44).


“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
He hath declared Him” (John 1:18).

Thus, did the Savior Himself teach concerning the knowledge of God? Having said, “All things are delivered unto Me of My Father; and no man knoweth the Son,
but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, the Savior added, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him” (Matt. 11:27).
And the Apostle John the Theologian writes in his epistle: “And we know that the Son of God is come,
and hath given us light and understanding that we may know the true God” (1 John 5:20

“Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11).

ICXC NIKA
helen



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 10:08 AM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 





Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Hello Joe (is Joe ok?)


Yes, it’s ok, you can call me Joe…




Originally posted by LeoVirgo
There are ways to know God, without ever reading about Jesus. And you might totally agree with what I am saying...and it may be that you have chosen Jesus as your personal path, and that is great...but he is not THE road map, there are many paths.


I agree, that God can be found by people who don’t have access to a bible, as long as they are humbly seeking. The reason I believe this, is because I know that God is more than just a name in a book.

But for the rest of us, why take the other path, that you speak of, why not just take the easier route and read Jesus words in the bible (and Gods words speaking through Jesus), which have been written down for us, to help us find and come to know God?



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
In fact, the idea that Jesus is tied to blood sacrifices...makes Jesus a very dangerous, false, road map. Some one thinking they are following in the way...just to later find, this was a very dark and earthly practice that was tied to Jesus by the fault of man.


Yes it was tied to Jesus by the fault of men but that does not mean that Jesus is not the way to find God. As I have already said, I don’t believe it is about Jesus physical death and blood but what he achieved to get there. I see Jesus dieing for sins only in the way I explained in my analogy, in my other reply.


My Christian friends have often said that it is up to the Father/God to guide and show/call people that he is speaking through Jesus words in the bible and that it is a spiritual knowing, only revealed to people by God. I believe this is partly true but that we ourselves, at some point on our own seeking and understanding, can make a faith, based, judgment, in order to make that first step/realization.





Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Again...personal paths are not facts or truth for all....


Unfortunately they are not, but they should be, because God is one.




Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I would like to point out that there was probably more women on a humbled path of being nurturers, comforters, and silent seekers....that grow to know the nature of God and the Holy Spirit of God....more so then priests.


There were many righteous women spoken of in the Old Testament, who were regarded as Godly, kind and wise.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I picture also, a humbled Indian woman seeking through what she called, the Great Spirit....knowing nothing of the history of the OT or that land....and I see her....finding God.


I should just say that I have been an atheist for most of my life and did not have any religious upbringing. I also do not represent the mainstream Christian view but everything that I believe, I can back it up, with scripture in the OT where God speaks and in NT, where Jesus and God/Father speaks.

I can see the Indian woman finding God also, in fact, I see the bible as more about people finding and coming to know God, than it is about condemnation.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
It depends on the nature of ones self....and what they are willing to see. If someone personally things that the bad people must be punished....that they should not be allowed second chances to learn....well then the belief they chose will reflect THEM.


The thing is I believe everyone will be given a second chance to come to God on the final day. That is why I believe it is more about people finding God. But God wants us to find and know him right now, before we get to that stage and that’s where Jesus comes in.

I do not believe in eternal punishment for the lost, I believe hell is a place of destruction for both body and soul. God is the source of all things (God is one) and does not want anyone to perish, but he knows we cannot live without him. That’s why IMO it’s more about finding and spiritually connecting to God and has noting to do with people being punished.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
My point, Jesus can be A road map...but the Holy Spirit can be found on many trails.


Well I don’t know for sure if the “Holy Spirit can be found on many trails” but I do know for sure (100%) that the Holy Spirit can be found in the bible through Jesus words and the words of God speaking through Jesus.



Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Please dont think Im nit picking...please please...we agree on so much, I think talking about the little tid bits where we may see just a bit different, is a very healthy thing for 2 people to do. It is what me and my friends in the real world do...we discuss...down to the nitty gritty *smiles*


I know you don’t know me very well on ATS but I’m not the kind of guy who is easily offended or has a fragile ego. I don’t see you as nit picking, at all, and I understand it is good to discuss these things.


- JC


PS – Thank you for adding me as a friend…



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 12:57 PM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


The reason some might not take the 'easy road map' as you say is for many reasons. 1, they do not have proof of Jesus being real. 2, most of the Bible might not resonate with them...therefor, they would have issues with just picking what does resonate with them and leaving the rest behind. 3, no matter how you see the life of Jesus...many read that Jesus is a blood sacrifice for sins...and this is not going to resonate with many that are on a path of personal seeking. Most people that call themselves 'spiritualist' are not going to accept a book that is FULL of blood sacrifices and scapegoats for a persons wrongs and rights. Its one thing to say....'Yes, I think the accounts of Jesus in the Bible have some spiritual wisdom's...'....its another to read it and take it for all it says.

This is why I posted you that link....did you read it???? I think you will see how a person, through just reading a story, could have understanding of the importance of a 'offering of self'.

The idea that people are learning something about themselves on the path of Jesus...is no more or less right or wrong...for all paths can teach us something about ourselves if we are truly observing ourselves for a path of spiritual growth.

All my best always
LV



posted on Jun, 6 2010 @ 01:01 PM
link   
reply to post by Abuaisha
 


We 'name' God because it is the only way we have to show understanding of something higher then us.

Before the Earth existed, before man could speak....God had no name.

God is the one who is nameless....our langueage has caused us to limit what is Divine, with a name. Not that its a bad thing....but to know God is nameless...takes a soul a step further in understanding what is Holy.

We call god 'God' with our English language...this does not make gods name 'God'. Same with other languages. We have to describe what we are talking about with a word....each language will have a different word for this description.

This does not have to be your 'truth' or understanding...but through my personal path....I have discovered God is the nameless one...so I usually refer to 'God' as 'THEE'.

Thanks for your reply's
LV



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 01:17 AM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Hi LV,

Thank you for your reply.

As my experience with you till now i believed that you have wise knowledge of the scriptures. Therefore, i have prefered to call God by his holy name "Allah/Elah" mentioned in OT.

There are many reason's why we should call our God by his Holy Name.

1) He himself given us His names.

2) Prophet & Messenger of God called him by His name.

3) The Names of God used in the all scriptures act as a roadmap for learning about the character of God. He chooses in scriptures are mean to reveal His true nature to us.

4) English Language is just 10 century Old.

5) If you add 's' to the word God, it becomes 'Gods', that is the plural of God. Allah/Elah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah/Elah.

6) If you add 'dess' to the word God, it becomes 'Goddess' that a female God. There is nothing like male or female Allah/Elah. Allah/Elah has no gender.

7) If you add the word 'father' or 'mother' to 'God' it becomes 'God-father' or God-mother. God father means someone who is guardian. There is no word like Allah/Elah-Father or Allah/Elah-Mother. Allah/Elah is unique word.

8) If you prefix tin before the word God, it becomes tin-God ie., fake God.
Allah/Elah is unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with..

9) One of the name i found in OT is 'Elohay Kedem' "God of the Beginning". (Deuteronomy 33:27). In Quran He calls Himself by a number of names and out of them "Al-Awal" "The First" (He always has existed and He never was created, as He is not like His creation, nor similar to it, in anyway.

But, if you don't feel comfortable in calling him by his Holy name than i would suggest you to call him by "Lord" ' Lord of the Heavens & the Earth' in Arabic "Rub-buss Samawati WalAard'.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 02:07 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 


Want to be Closer to God (Allah/Elah), But Don't Know How!

Almighty Lord revealed Nobel Quran to His Last and final Prophet & Messenger Muhammed (PBUH) - (The Admirable, The Honorable) to whole mankind & Jinn for the true guidance and light.

Allah, the Exalted is the Best to respond to this concern:

When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: that they may walk in the right way. (Quran 2:186)

In a Qudsi hadith the Prophet reported that Allah says:

"..my servant does not come closer to Me with anything more dear to Me than that which I made obligatory upon him. My servant keeps coming closer to Me with more volunteer deeds, until I love him. When I love him, I become His ear by which he hears, his eyes by which he sees, his hand by which he holds and his foot by which he walks. If he asks Me anything I shall give him. If he seeks My protection I shall grant him My protection… "(Al-Bukhari 6021)

Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for Allah loves not those who trespass beyond bounds. Do no mischief on the earth, after it hath been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing (in your hearts): for the Mercy of Allah is (always) near to those who do good.) (Quran 7:55-56)

In a Qudsi hadith the Prophet reported that Allah says,

"Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, ... O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant so and so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant so and so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me." (Muslim)

Behold in the Remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction. (Quran 13: 28)

Therefore remember Me, I will remember you. (Quran 2:152)



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 03:18 AM
link   
reply to post by Abuaisha
 


Rather than posting excessive cut-an-paste arguments in this Thread, why not make a Thread of your own about how you believe the Quran diminishes the blood of Christ?



new topics

top topics



 
2
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join