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The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice?

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posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Hi Lv,

Quick question. We as a human being made up of flesh and spirit. I hope you agree with this. In day to day our life both works jointly. If a human comit sins than who is accountable? Spirit or Flesh?

Please answer me which is easy for me to understand and with some logic example.

Much appreciate it.




posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Hi Joe,

You forget to answer me below.

Can you tell me the difference between the Spirit of God which is breathen into the fetus of women womb and one which you receive it latter time? What are these two type of spirits we called?



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by Abuaisha
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Hi Lv,

Quick question. We as a human being made up of flesh and spirit. I hope you agree with this. In day to day our life both works jointly. If a human comit sins than who is accountable? Spirit or Flesh?

Please answer me which is easy for me to understand and with some logic example.

Much appreciate it.


Well the Spirit is Holy...it is what is Divine, Perfect.

It is more a cause and effect, of Spirit, being in a body complex, the soul being, what ties these two complexes together. So you have a body/soul/spirit complex.

The body complex (the flesh), reacts through ages and time, to the environment around it, being stimulated, making different chemical and emotional reactions to its surroundings, through all experiences.

The flesh body (the body complex), being in the illusion that all the person is , is a individual, a 'self', it experiences lust, desire, greed, pride, hate, deceit, and the need to survive as well. As we grow through life, we test many things. Psychology can really explain to alot of people, why humans do the things they do. Personalities of the person, will also play into this. A social personality, along with a desire to fit in with others, may cause a person to act in ways another person would not, that is content with not depending on social needs, or a desire to feel like they fit in with others. Many many things come into play of why we do what we do, right or wrong.

Age matters here, for with age and many experiences, we have learned from our own actions if we pay attention, we can also learn form others actions, on what feeling we gain from placing ourselves in their shoes or even their victims shoes. Ultimately, as adults, we gain our own perspective of what is right and wrong. Our family life, our culture, our society, our experiences in the past, and our goals/dreams....all continue to play a part in our perspective, of right and wrong.

ALl of the above, is a cause and affect, from our body complex, from the experience of being in the flesh.

To act in Spirit, there must be an awakening and understanding of the nature of the Spirit. Even a body complex, can desire to be compassionate towards others, can try to find a way to have unconditional love to others, seek a strength within them to forgive others....even atheists can have these natures of 'good' within them. To really awaken though to the nature of Spiritual things, doing 'good' becomes you, it becomes your nature....and things of flesh, for the 'self', are not what is important to that soul/body complex anymore. The soul, offers the body complex of itself, to be of use then, to the Spirit within.

Sins are how we learn. So I dont like to call them sins....for at a mature point in a persons path they should be able to cherish all the rights and wrongs, goods and bads, for they would not be the person they are, that has grown and learn, without those experiences of polarity and duality. Without the body complex, as a tool for our soul to discern things and sift things through life...how would we ever gain understanding of anything. How can we know the worth and value of honesty, unless we have experienced being lied to or to have lied to someone else and then reap the guilt from it?

I dont look at 'sins' as totally a bad thing, we need them. But there should reach a point, with age and experiences, that the person will have enough knowledge and wisdom of what is the 'better way' or what decisions have the better affect in a Universal view over a 'self' view... to work on being a good person, being a benefit to the world around them, instead of being a burden.

See I think God is understanding to our body complexes, and the need for our soul to sift and weigh. I think there is understanding for those who dont 'believe' in what they cant see, I think God understands that when people are living in pride, greed, and lust, this soul still has chosen to not discern and is still in need of learning. I think God offers the chance, to continue learning through reaping what we sow, as long as it takes.

We do 'wrong' due to our body complex, due to the nature of being in the flesh. Through sifting, cycles, and orders....we will all be guided to our Spiritual nature.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Jun, 29 2010 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 



Hi Abuaisha




Originally posted by Abuaisha
I didnt ask you whether God is capable of creating son or not. My question is why He should create a Son? What is the wisdom behind in creating only Son (Jesus PBUH) or all of us (this is according to your viewpoint)?


But this akin to asking me…”Why do we have children?”…To which I would reply…out of love…



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Israel is my son, even my firstborn.” (Exodus 4:22)

Does the above verse means that Isreal is a divine son of God. This is just an expression to show the important of the place. Lift or give high status to that place(Israel) compare to other lands on the earth.


I agree that verse is just describing, the firstborn of a people of Israel.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Did God create us with part of himself or not?

My answer is very simple and straight forward. If you think God is a Spirit(made of Spirit) and He created our spirit from His own spirit than my answer will simple "NO".


I guess we will have to agree to disagree about this…

If “No”, then what did he (God) create our spirits with, if not part of himself?




Originally posted by Abuaisha
I believe we are from God and a part of God

We are from God and we are part of His kingdom. NOT PART OF GOD HIMSELF. Because He is Unique and all Powerful.


The best way I can describe it is to use an example…
Lets just say you have a son…now you are unique from your son and your son is not you, but your son is a part of you. In other words, we are not the vine (Jesus) or the Gardener (God), we are the branches (people) but we are a part of the vine, spiritually speaking of course.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
If His OWN spirit (according to you; you have mentioned God came to earth in the form of Jesus(PBUH). His Spirit resided inside Jesus(PBUH) body. In otherwords Jesus(PBUH) was a walking God during his time.


Not exactly…The spirit of God came to dwell in Jesus (hence why I said God came down) but Jesus also had his own spirit, this is why I believe Jesus is not God, although some Christian doctrines disagree. When Jesus says I and the Father are one and when he says, I am in the Father and he is in me, I believe he is talking about things of the spirit.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” What does the above line mean to you as a Muslim? bearing in mind, that you believe Jesus is only a messenger from God.

There are some rules and regulations for research in every art and science. You cannot reach the correct conclusion unless you follow them. In the subject of interpreting religious scriptures it has to follow the same condition.

1) Situation/Occasion when it was said.
2) Literal and Context of verse revealed before and after.

As you have given me only one verse, i will try to interpret it my own according to my knowledge given by Almighty lord. There are two character in this verse "True Vine" and "Vinedresser".

According to my research

Jesus(PBUH) is the True Vine: A vine is any kind of long, trailing branch, crawling along a fence or up a wall or wrapping itself around a pole or tree. In the vineyard, it is the whole grape plant. Vineyard keepers traditionally keep the vine at waist height.

God the Father is the Vinedresser: The vinedresser is the keeper of the vineyard. His task is to cultivate each branch so that it will bear as much fruit as possible by arranging/well organize/raise upward the branches, sometimes cuts of the branches which becomes sick and useless & also water it and fertilize the soil for more growth.etc.


You mentioned above that the context of a verse is important and you have described what the “True vine” and the “Vinedresser” are, but you haven’t incorporated the context into it i.e. what Jesus is referring to in saying those things.

I believe the context of those verses, is about receiving the Holy Spirit i.e. The Spirit of God.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
In the next verse..Fruits is used as a Metaphor. Fruits represent our good work, all good works done should be ONLY according to the teaching of Jesus(PBUH); because he is a true vine. Anything in addition or deletion can be said as innovation in religion.

Being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.


I agree with this, in that ‘fruit” is a metaphor for good works.




Originally posted by Abuaisha
But the Jews were the ones who first took offence, to Jesus saying he was the “son of God”.

You are wrong again. Jews did not take offence when he said "son of God". That was not the first time they took offense. They try to stone him before in many occasions when he said "I and father are One" and "i was before Abrahim". They couldn’t understand his teaching. They took his word literally. As i said before jews misunderstood the message of Jesus(PBUH). Jews were just finding the fault to accuse him and to kill him.


I meant that they (Jews) were the first “people” to take offence, not that that was the first instance in which they took offence to it.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
For a while i agree that Jesus(PBUH) claimed himself to be a divine son of God and Jews took and offence and try to kill him. But on other hand we see Almighty God says "Here is my servant". Why didnt Almighty God said "Here is my divine son"? Not a common son like me and you, but special son. Almighty God said servant. So to whom shall we believe Almighty God or Jesus (PBUH).



Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."




Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."




Originally posted by Abuaisha
You forget to answer me below.

Can you tell me the difference between the Spirit of God which is breathen into the fetus of women womb and one which you receive it latter time? What are these two type of spirits we called?


Well, I didn’t forget, I just chose not to answer it because I didn’t want to complicate things further by bringing my own ideas and beliefs into it. Suffice to say, that the spirit you receive at a later time, is called the Spirit of God (aka the Holy Spirit) and is what Jesus is talking (context) about in those verses we have been discussing i.e. John 14, 15 and 16.


- JC

PS - As much as I have enjoyed this discussion so far, I really only came to this thread to discuss whether Jesus death was a Judgment or a sacrifice and not whether Jesus is the “Son of God”.

I recommend you make a thread on the topic we have been discussing so far. I’m pretty sure if you set up a thread, entitled something along the lines of, “is Jesus the son of God?”, you will get many different perspectives, from varying Christian denominational members here at ATS.



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