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The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice?

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posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 10:29 AM
reply to post by Joecroft

Hi Joecroft,

Thank you for your reply.

Starting with the topic : son of God or God's Son.

The verses in Bible which gives and understanding the relationship of Almighty God/Father with Jesus(PBUH) as a Son of God. Do you actually believe Jesus(PBUH) as biological Son of GOD?

Many people before Jesus were called "Sons of GOD" in the Bible. Let us look at few of them:

Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Israel was GOD's Son before Jesus since Israel is the "first born".

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is another name for Israel.

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Since GOD Almighty chose David to be His begotten Son,

What do you have to say about the above verses. Much appreciate it if you can get me correct interpretation and justification.

The "Son of GOD" title that was given to Jesus wasn't the only title for him. Jesus was also called "Son of David." Keep in mind that Jesus came after 1000 years after King David. Jesus was also called "Son of Man". See Matthew 1:1, Matthew 9:27, Matthew 12:23, Matthew 15:22, and many other verses.

Is the Man whom Jesus was called his son (possibly David) ? Is David divine since Jesus is his Son or do you say he is a real son of David?

Jesus was called:

Son of GOD,Son of David, Son of Man.

Why consider Jesus as the actual biological Son of GOD, when the same expression was used for King David being Jesus' Father who existed 1,000 years before Jesus?

Why can't "Son of GOD" that was used for Jesus be just an expression just like the "Godly" titles and "Son of GOD" expressions that were used for others before Jesus as well as shown above?

Do you agree with my statement?

Almighty Allah says in Quran:

The Messiah (Jesus (PBUH)), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him . His mother (Mary(PBUH)) was Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat( Proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth). (Quran 5:75)

Any say: "All the praises and thanks are to Allah, Who has not begotten a son (nor offspring), and Who has no partner n (His) dominion, nor He is low to have a Wali (helper, protector or supporter). And magnify Him with all the magnificence, (Quran 17:111)

Actual title to say about Jesus(PBUH) is "Son of Mary".


"Jesus is regarded as the first born of all creation, which makes the title :”The Son of God“ appropriate. "

My Reply:

Let us say i agree with you that God first created "The Spirit" of Jesus(PBUH) in the beginning. That doesn't make him "The Son of God" either. What happen next? He stop creating the spirit anymore? Than God did not created any human spirits after that? Like (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus & Muhammed)PBUTA & as well as OURS. What does that mean we all should have title of "Son of God".

This is a great blasphemy, because this belief holds no concrete ground what so ever!


Holy Spirit Topic

Sorry i misunderstood when you said "The Holy Sprit is both Sprit and a person and the person is God". I understood that human person appears in front of you, who spoke to you and vic-versa you saw him. My mistake.

According to your last post and accepted given formula:

Holy Spirit = God Spirit + Jesus Spirit.( Wrong formula)

Next post you described me Holy Spirit=God's Spirit. I agree with this formula upto some extent. Lets play swaping game.
God's Spirit=Holy Spriit.

Spirit is a creation of God. Not God himself or His part.

to be continued...

posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 10:55 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Hello Abuaisha! I hope you are doing well also...

I appreciate the discourse you are offering here. I can see that you think we need to be told what is right and wrong...that humans dont have a internal compass of figuring, weighing, and measuring morality. Of course morality is in the eye of the beholder, such as we have some people that think corporal punishment is ok, and some dont. Some think abortion is ok, and some dont. Some think that marrying out of ones race is wrong...some dont. Ect ect ect. We all have our own idea of what is right and wrong. This is the path of self most definatly and is needed and must be experiences by each being.

On a higher note, people come together over time, giving their ideas and reasons for what is right and wrong. Groups, cultures, societies, try to come to agreements on a 'general law' for their people to follow, trying to bring a harmony to people instead of chaos. Sometimes a group after much time may notice a law that does not seem to work or does not seem to benefit the people...and sometimes there are then changes to the general law.

We can look back into many cultures with different images of 'god or gods' and see that people were making laws. Alot of the laws back then were of the same nature, such as do not murder, do not take what is not yours ect. We can see, people tried to find a balance, for a group of people, living together. I see this as human nature, weighing and measuring together. Some people think we have to be told these things by a 'god' to know them.

I see us made in a way to use logic, reasons, compassion, empathy, evaluation of actions and reactions, awareness of cause and affect, mercy, ....there are many things embedded to our human natures that help us weigh morals. Experience, brings us to having a 'feeling' about something. Feeling bad about something we did can lead us to make a different decision in the same situation later on.

To just be told...this is right, and this is wrong....brings and offers, no understanding. Each person needs to find reasons and understanding in their perception of 'right and wrong'. I, personally, might not agree with getting a abortion...but it is not my right to tell someone else this must be their moral. They need to figure that for themselves. Through their decision, they may find that they would not make that same decision again. They will then have reasons and understanding in why their decision will be different next time.

I do not believe we are to be 'told' by God what is right and wrong...for Thee made us in a way that we measure and weigh life around us. There is right and wrong in the Divine Eye...and after death, we each face seeing our life through that eye of light. We may need to reap some seeds that we have sown, but we will also understand why we need to reap those seeds.

I use the term 'Thee' for God because for one, that is of the English language, and it is a general term that I keeps my knowing in God being nameless. The word 'God' is so very tainted by religions.

Than what do you have to say about Prophet & Messenger of Almighty God (Abraham, Moses, Jesus & Muhammed) PBUTA. Who are those peoples? Why they have been sent with revelation?

They are people, just like you and I. Some of them found the narrow path of humble living, some did not. Abraham and Moses I have much issues with. They were fulfilling the life of self and I dont accept their path as Holy. The concern with a special people and special land is not Divine. Every single person can seek the Holy Spirit and be guided in a more humble nature. I dont think its so much people are 'sent' revelation...but people offer their own understanding and reasoning. It is still everyones job to weigh and measure things through the Holy Spirit.

If you believe or trust in any WORD of the Scriptures than you are indirectly believing the Messenger & Prophets of God. Do you agree with this?

I take what resonates with me. Call it what you want. I accept things that I have understanding in. I look for people that have a humble and spiritual nature, not concerning themselves with Earthly land, rituals, special families, and end of the world talks.

You will surprise to know that Almighty God takes our soul during our sleep.

I dont believe what you say here. But I dont hold judgment for it either. We all understand things differently. There is a realm of our higher selves, our prime images, and here we learn many things. I do think dreams offer us a place to learn with our prime image, but I would not word it as God takes our souls while we sleep. God IS. Its not so much as a intervening/something. Just my thoughts.

I didnt understand about the "Choosen People in Quran". What does that mean?

This is the whole downfall of the religions of Abraham. The idea that a certain man and woman were more loved in the eyes of God...the idea that God chose a man to build a house for God. The idea that God chooses a man to behold a revelation to the people of that family line. From what I have experienced, this is not the nature of God or how Thee works. One thing that is very strong with my soul/spirit now is that God....never wanted a Earthly building/land/Temple. Gods Temple is the nature of the world that holds life therein. Our bodies that hold the life therein. God is of no concern with a special land or special family. It is not about 'some' finding the is about ALL finding the way.

All my best to you and yours

posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 02:58 PM
reply to post by Joecroft


Bit confusing what you have said..

[You mentioned in your last post "The Holy Sprit is Gods spirit and God is a he. "
"he" spoke to me and that I also experience what is described in John 7:38.]

Again here you are refering 'he' as holy spirit or God?

If its a God than believe me you are still wrong again.

John 5:37 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If you say above verses was only referring to group of Jews and cannot be understood generally for everyone whom Jesus(PBUH) referring than we can conclude other meaning that other than Jews, we all can see God & hear His voice. How can you explain this?

Still i'm confused, what do you mean 'he spoke to me'? Did you hear some kind of voice in your ear? Shall i understood "he spoke to me" literally? Much appreciate if you can give some logical explanation. Thanks again.

Can you make two way communication? If yes, i will much thankful to you if you can get the answers of my questions which i have mentioned in my last post.

Yes, God spoke directly with many OT prophets including Moses, Elijah,Elisha, Joshua and many others.

Exodus 3

When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"And Moses said, "Here I am."
"Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."
Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

You will surprise and shocked but you will not believe that Almighty lord spoke with Prophet Muhammed when he was taken to the heavens.
See the link for more details..

By the way what do you mean by speaking directly?

Many thanks for reading.

posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 03:40 PM
reply to post by teapot

Hi Teapot,

Nice to hear from you again. I'm glad you are reading all my posts.

I will start this topic with below Quran verses..Allah Almighty says in Quran:

And they ask you (O Muhammed PBUH) concerning Ruh (the Spirit); Say: "The Ruh (the spirit) : is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little."

We mankind has been given little knowledge concerning "the spirit".

To make this topic short and make it very straight forward to understand i will explain what it Holy Spirit in Quran means and what i understood and believe in rest Allah knows the best.

In Quran Holy Spirit is refer to Archangle Jibrel (PBUH) and that Allah called him al-Rooh al-Ameen(Trustworthy Spirit), Rooh al-Qudus(Holy Spirit) and Jibreel with three differnet names. Jibreel(PBUH) is the message-bearer par excellence from Allah, the Most High; I have mentioned the functions of Holy Spirit in my previous post. He is also the conduit of divine support and assistance bestowed on Prophets, Messengers as well as righteous people who strive in the path of Almight Lord Allah.

Holy Spirit (Jibreel PBUH) worships GOD Almighty and has limited duties and only works through GOD Almighty's Divine Commands.

The Holy Spirit (Jibreel PBUH) sent by Allah to assist His chosen servants in their divinely ordained missions.

Furthermore to this topic, i would also add how Almighty Lord speak to His creation with 3 modes which are considered to be attributes of divine activity.

1) By Revelation - in other words, by divine inspiration; God sometimes casts His words directly into the heart of the Prophet, Messengers & righteous people and sometimes He causes His words to enter the heart after first being heard by the ear.

2) From behind a veil - Moses was spoken to from behind the burning bush.

3) Through a messenger - by an Angel Jibreel (PBUH) usually.

Rest Allah know the best. We have given little knowledge of this topic.

All Good is from Almighty Lord and any error and mistakes belongs to me.

Thank you for reading.

posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 10:45 PM
reply to post by Abuaisha

For the first 2 questions you proposed to well as the other 2...but I am being told you are not open enough for these, I was even advised to not post them, for why give things to someone that may call them foolish and have no understanding of them. But the Spirit understands my path as a offeror of what I experience, and through my free will, I choose to share.

The Holy Spirit shows me religions are of Earth, not of Spirit. There are many faults in every religion.

About faith...God does not expect beings to base things on faith. We are made with logic and reason...for a reason. Belief is not the concern, the concern is the inner nature of each individual. The growth of their inner being will be weighed.

All things are being made perfect.

There is no 'hour' nor 'signs'.

No one should take my word for anything. If you work on your spiritual self, by humbling, by opening your mind without biased thoughts, show Thee you are willing to be of service to others, show Thee you do not seek Thee for rewards of reasons of 'self'....the Spirit will guide you. Thee can not show you things if you are not open.

Everything you pass onto from a book. How do you test things through the Holy Spirit? What has the Spirit shown your through personal relations? Did you know that God never intended nor ever intends to leave the pearls of Spirit in a book for all common men to read. Did you know there is a reason that all the answers can not be offered in a Earthly book?

All my best

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 08:44 AM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

Hi LV,

Thank you for your reply.

What so far i understood from your post is that you do not believe in any religion not even the messenger & prophets, their Books and last their Almighty Lord. Whom you think quite different than 'Thee'. You considered all this things just a man made WORD. I must say now that you are living in your own Philosophy of life. I cannot find better word to say but 'Philosophy'. Which we cannot say it as religion. You have your own rules and laws, which are custom made.

But these type of philosophy never works in earthly day to day business. As i have mentioned in my last post that; if there is no divine law which gives the guidance to the mankind than; how the mankind will be judge in hereafter life. Do you have any answer of this?

According to your philosophy, what happen when the soul from our body depart? What happen next?

Do you believe that Creator knows best what is good for his creation?

If 'yes' is your answer than i will give you an example for better understanding.

Example of Computer.

We all know that how computer are made and operated. Its a complex man made machine. Do you agree? It has many components like motherboard, harddisk, RAM, few cables, cooling fans, BIOS, Operating System and finally some security software to protect it from virus,trogan..etc.. And again if we sub divide each component you will find many other electronics components. To make collective function of all this peripherals which we say computer; the manufacturer provides us with manuals/user guide. Both for hardware and software. What do you think if a person in first place not given a knowledge of how to use it and operate it. What will happen? Let us assume somebody just manufactured a newly invented machine and wants to handover to the mankind, without providing any knowledge verbal or written (userguide/manuals); what will happen than? Even they do not know about power rating (110/220). What they will do in such situation? Do you still think that they will buy it first after paying some handsome of money and than destroy it first and than try to buy it again. Now he will not repeat same mistake again because he has learnt the lesson from the past experience. Upto how long he has to repeat the mistakes and learn from it. This will be the waste of money for him. Mankind will never except this type of man made machine which does not provide any guidance how to operate it. M i right?

Don't you think that we human beings are even designed by Almighty Lord in more complex fashion? He has not just left us without any purpose but also taught us the divine way/path to live our earthly life + hereafter. In every generation Almighty Lord sent the prophets & messengers to different community show them the guidance from their lord. To show them the proper path through which they can live the earthly life successfully as well as hereafter. What all messenger's was given is usermanual/guide what we say a divine LAW. Each generation and community has been given such LAW. You will find LAW changed in different generation with different people. But the last and final divine LAW which was revealed to all mankind/jin is QURAN. Final revelation from Almighty Lord. There will be no LAW coming anymore from our Almighty Lord. This is his final revelation to his final prophet Muhammed (PBUH).Those who read it, understand it & implement it in their day to day life are successful and guided in this world as well as hereafter.

The moral behind for giving this example is that we are not left in this world without any divine law/guidence from Almighty Lord. There are some rules/condition in the LAW which we may think is not fit/suit in our life. But as i said our Creator knows what is good for us. So we have to except it whole heartedly.

to be continued..

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 09:20 AM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

to be continue..

Now my question to you is that how can mankind seek Holy Spirit? Who will tell the mankind the path to follow so that they can receive the Holy Spirit? Can you tell me who revealed to you that mankind can be guide by the Holy Spirit? You do not believe any prophets & messenger of God and their revelation. How can we trust your word if somebody wants to follow the personal path by seeking guidance from Holy Spirit? And finally, according to you what do you mean by Holy Spirit? Do you think that God is created from the spirits, and a part of his spirits which we have it from him becomes as Holy Spirit. According to you is this the meaning of Holy Spirit?

In Quran, where do you find about choosen people? As i have explained you in my previous post about the Mercy of Almighty Lord. Do you think it is for specific people? Can you tell me what fault do you find in Islam?

Finally i will conclude my writing with a famous saying of one of the Islamic scholar.

For the believers this world is like a prison and for non-believers it is paradise. If they think about the hereafter life than the life of this world is nothing with its comparison.

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 09:28 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

There is a Divine Light Abuaisha, which runs through all of us. Between our body complex and spirit complex, our soul complex weighs and measures many many things all through life. We all have our own conclusions and that is a fact. Our conclusions are honest, according to our experiences and our inner reactions. When someone tells you to not do something...your behavior or obeying is not really are doing something for another. If you have personal understanding of WHY it is better to not do that particular something...then your behavior is honest, and has reasons. God see's these things in your heart, how you process what you feel...and what you feel, is a part of your deepest most inner nature. We are made with things like guilt, regrets, ect...for reasons.

When one dies, they are released from their body complex (of Earth, matter). From what I have seen, a person experiences looking back at their life in a rapid moment, they see their path as well as people that were on their path. I have seen that people, have to stand up for or against the people on their path that they crossed with. When not in the body complex, the being is able to see this life through the divine eye, the eye that hides nothing of the being, the eye that shows all things, even the things that the being is in denial about their own self. This can be a rough moment, but at the same moment, they are shown they are loved, there is no outside judgment....but the soul, not able to hide, seeing all things now....judges itself harshly. The soul remembers its purpose, of learning, and learning till the purpose of service is fulfilled. In between lives, there is no veil....we relearn everything. Relearning that we are of God, and to deny such is not even possible, for it would be denying our very existence.

If someone experiences a hell....they have created this for themselves, and it is not eternal. In between lives, the soul is in total understanding that it is to learn things, as a spiritual being. The soul may choose rest for a while, soaking up the love that is boundless....or the soul may reincarnate again, ready to reap what is sown and keep learning. The soul may also create like I said, a place in the 'dream realm' to condition themselves for what they feel is needed, such as a hell like place or even a paradise place. The paradise place made by soul/spirit complexes, is the place I think souls go when we sleep. They can go and experience what their other selves (other beings of the Spirit) are co creators. Ultimately, we all have a place there...we ourselves can practice as co creators in this realm, creating places, experiences, events, ect....

I believe, even those that are allowed to pass through the gates....still go on to learn, beyond what we can image here.

In 'after death' soul/spirit complexes may take a form for you that they know you will be comfortable with. Some die and see a lady guide, some die and see Jesus, some die and see a loved one to guide them. The important thing is, if the soul.spirit complex is welcoming and open after being released from the body complex, is to show that they are loved and accepted unconditionally. Some soul/spirit complexes, are so bruised and battered due to their decisions in the body complex, they 'hide' in a sense, from the Divine Eye, from the mirror they must look in. This is where we get 'ghost' or a wondering 'soul'. Some soul/spirit complexes become so attached to something here on Earth...the soul has trouble detaching themselves from here, and lingers aimlessly, also ignoring the mirror that awaits the measuring of their soul.

Love conquers all things....God will bring all to their highest most prime visions, through love. The Divine Eye that we look through, after of the Holy Spirit of God....the weights and measures in that eye are the same for all beings. It weighs the nature of each of us, and measures if we live more for our body complex or spirit complex. It is a brilliant tool, it seems to be , the very mind of God.

I dont just pull this out of my hat....I take all of this....from experiences of watching my mother have 9 hours of visions, while passing from me. She went unconscious for 3 days, then awoke. Before going unconscious, on the Summer solstice of 2008, I sat by her bedside, while for 9 hours, she told me her experiences. Plus I have compared her experience with other NDE and I get the same thing. As much as possible, I try to use what is offered as 'experiences'.

All I can do is share why I believe what I do.

All my best to you

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 10:35 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

I must be careful with this reply, for as I have said many times, we should not take another's word for anything and each person's awakening to such things is personal. We can though, be in touch with our deepest nature, which is going to have certain things resonate with us. This inner nature is often hidden by preconceived ideas about what God is. Many things I 'thought' I knew...I had to shed and let go of.

I can share what I have experienced and found, which may be of help and it may not. It is hard to share such things without including all moments of my life, for the opportunities that I found to 'figure' things involve many moments throughout my life.

Some things that I believe were vital for understanding to come to me was humility, honesty, and the offering of myself, back to Thee. The offering of self back to Thee, is the knowing that my body complex is not what makes me as a spiritual being. The only Earthly ritual I practiced was fasting from meats. When I went before Thee....and admitted to Thee I know nothing with any certainty besides that I felt a higher existence then this life here...I placed my fate in Thee's hands. I felt one of the first things I had to do was to cleanse my body complex from the death I consume (animals) and it was during this time I went through much forgiving to others and myself, for what we not know. I went through alot of history, weighing and measuring peoples lives, and finding understanding in their lessons of the body complex, and finding forgiveness for them. I went through a realization that all people, are just another part of me...and I them...that we are all....part of the Holy Spirit. Its not that we 'make' the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is what offered life to us, and in return, we offer our soul, back to Thee. God, is like the mind, the processor. The Holy Spirit, is like the heart, the life force of God and us. They are not separate things...but work together to be ONE.

Something I often dont mention, for it will be considered foolishness by many, is the angels of the Earth. Again, the angels of the Earth, are another form of offering of the Holy Spirit, for us to have this experience. Anywhere you find find a offering of the Spirit.

There is a saying in a old gospel that kind of awoke me to this....

'Cut the tree, I am there....lift a rock, you will find me'.

During my times of fasting, I read alot of material, for there seemed to be a great sifting going on with things I would read or observe. Things would stand out to me that did not before. I was able to look at things without my preconceived thoughts of other men. I was able, to observe and weigh, honestly through my inner being. As this went on....I did ridiculous amounts of reading and weighing. Hours and hours and hours on end. I was needing little was a time in my life like no others. It seemed as if something was energizing me and I was flying all the time. Certain things just started making sense to me. One of them I remember that was very important was cooking food, with love. The teaching that my energy while cooking, made a different to the food I would offer others. If I cooked meat for others especially, my mind desired to offer the meat back to the Earthly body....the body of the human in the recycle, what comes from earth returns to earth. The thought mattered, the understanding mattered, in some very deep way.

Another thing I had to release, and this was the hardest, was my fear. Fear that I would be misguided, fear that something could trick me. Fear that it would not be God that would reach to me. I just came to understanding that God never intended for anyone to fear seeking Thee. I had to place trust in Thee...and trust that the Spirit would be there...if I knocked. This was such a huge part of it. If I did not trust in could Thee show me anything that went against what I have been told?

This was a process that lasted about a year. Much sifting an weighing to get to know, my deepest inner nature of myself. After learning about the 'self' i could then start to learn about others. After learning about my body complex, I could only then start to learn about my spirit complex. We must learn things of Earth first, before we can learn things of Spirit. We must have understanding of the differences, of what comes from where, and what returns to where.

Everything around you that holds life shows you a form of recycling. Nothing gets wasted, everything gets used. Your life is similar. All your crossings of paths, all of your fears, happy times, sad moments, all of it, has to do with a opportunity for you to weigh your inner being.

Dreams became a big part of my path in that time. Dreams that tested my being. Dreams that tested my living for myself, or would I and could I, have enough understanding in offering myself. I then, had to walk the path that Jesus walked. I had to find understanding in what he did. For my personal path, this was the most influencing on me, about why we are to offer ourselves back. The body complex is offered back to Earth, the Spirit complex is offered back to Spirit, our soul, becomes a vibration of service to others, a tool for the Spirit, to work through. My experience with Jesus, was he would never stand over me, in front of me, but always, always, beside me. If I knelt, he knelt. If I wept, his head hung. He was, in service, to others that sought him.

There had to be understanding of why spiritual answers are not all laid out for us like a road map. It is something that we are to seek and figure and find our way. After reading the Bible again after my process of figureing was more open, it was like I was being pointed to certain words, things, events, people, the passion of Earths history was really insane for me. After feeling the Holy Spirit on a more regular bases....I could of gone off and lived with just Thee, learning through Thee every day, every hour. It is like a lost love that you once knew. The comoft and nurture you reaceive is nothing like anything one experiences from beings here on Earth. It is pure, it is holy, it is divine. It is love. I could of left everything of my Earthly life behind, and not cared, in that moment.

This is when I pulled back...for I was not ready to leave such things. I knew, I was still attached to things of Earth, but that it was OK. I knew there would come a time for a choice of such things...and for now, I needed to be the tool that I could be for Thee. Mabey for my children, family, friends, I did not know....but I could only go so far with it. It was then, I understood monks and had such high respect for their lives they lived. There is still much to learn, for the process of it does not ever end in this experience. But we must be able to see what were are ready for and what we are not, and be honest about it. If we are not honest, the Spirit can not work with us. It can comfort us...nurture us....but honest and humility are a key for seeking the Spirit. Every single though that goes through your mind on your path....God knows. Every single thought shows something about your nature. Even our beliefs of things we know not....shows something about our nature. The belief that God wants blood sacrifices, shows not something about God, but about that persons nature. Just for example. So many things that are beliefs...are used as markers, to process what the nature of that soul is.

We must be brave and trustworthy in brake out on to a personal path to Thee. If this idea does not resonate with you...then I would say not to worry yourself with it. If there is something more that tugs at your inner being, a deeper you somewhere saying such things resonate...then it is your choice to listen or to excuse it.

No one man can lead mankind in the path to the Holy Spirit. Man can influence other men, men can awaken a nature within other men....but the path of personal relation to Thee is a honest path. It shows God, you dont just except what another has told you, and that you trust Thee will be there if you seek Thee. This trust, is a must and it may take a long time for some souls to gain this...for they right to trust in such things has been taken from them. They have lost the knowing that as spiritual beings, it is their 'right' to seek Thee.

You have to learn how to listen, to your inner nature, to what you 'feel'. You have to be willing to look at yourself, and face your Earthly nature.

The hardest part, was twisting out of the religious knot my mind was in, and learning I had a right to seek Thee. Offering myself back what was meant to be in the first place, that other men have denied me of.

I am sorry for the rambles...but how does one explain such a thing? I can offer you only the things I found to be of importance...while seeking Thee. Ultimately, to find such a thing, each being would have to walk their own path, carry their own cross, make their own offerings and gain their own understandings in each though and feeling.

I was shown alot of things, through nature and life around me. The works of cycles, and things returning from where they came from. I have notebooks full of things I found that was resonating with me, I had the need to write many things down, as I sifted things within me. I still do this sometimes but nothing like I did that first year. With religions...they all evolve from a former people, a former belief. What men believed back then is understandable, if you can place yourself in their shoes and see what they had understanding of and what they did not. They contributed anything good, to God...and anything bad, to their wrongs.

Only take what resonates with your deepest being.

All my best

[edit on 13-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 11:09 AM
Sorry, repost.

[edit on 13-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

[edit on 13-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 11:11 AM
Excepting unconditional love is not easy for some.

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 12:54 PM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Ive been sifting something I said that you have asked about...and I would like to retell it a different way.

The Quran does not talk about a 'chosen people' but the view that Ishmael side of the family line was the one believed to be use by God for divine revelation. In the reverse side, is the belief that Jacob's side of the family was the one's used for divine revelation. So I retrack what I said that the Quran teaches there are chosen ones...but they do, just like the other side, believe certain ones are chosen to reveal God to the people.

There are some great things on both sides of this family of well as some Earthly learning as well. Both are of value with things to learn from. I remember one thing that resonated with me deeply of the Quran was the lack of belief that animal sacrifices were a spiritual practice. At least I dont remember reading about animal sacrifices being of importance as I remember it being in the Bible.

I have not sifted the Quran as much as I have the Bible...for the Bible is the religion I grew up in. But I will say ( and please dont take this wrong against you or your belief) that I do not believe in a establishing a 'religious law' anywhere on the globe. I do not believe in using a religion as a political power.

We have the side of the family of Ishmael, who feel that their faith is the ultimate one..we have the side of the family of Jacob, who feel that their faith was the ultimate one. This idea of separation will not work, and will have to be abandoned. Many things will have to come to pass for this to happen though. You have one group that faces the direction of Mecca during prayer. The Jews used to have a similar method and some still do it today, of facing the direction of the wall during prayer. The day that these 2 sides of Abrahams family can come together and face the same direction, in the knowing that unity is what counts, not a material object....we will see great things.

Religions keep mankind separated, this is not part of the path that is. Even though we must have the paths that are see the path that is...we need to see how one must be abandoned at some point for the purpose of the ALL. Right now, the pride of one being right over the other, is not going to allow unity to happen. We will have to test the path of separation to its see why it is not.

Its not that any religion is wrong....but they are of man, not of Spirit. You cant fix something that is forever evolving and changing, which is the soul/spirit complex of mankind. Not saying the Holy Spirit can not be found within religious...but no religion holds all the answers. Some things can not be just given to man.

I am reminded of what I have learned about man trying to fix the wheel of the zodiac a couple thousand years ago. This was a blunder to the observations of the cosmos...and is misleading many today, for the cosmos change from our perspective, because the Earth wobbles. It cant be fixed, but must be observed. Similar to the observations of the new moon after spring is said this must not be fixed, for it must be truly observed. Sometimes the dark moon lasts a day, sometimes a day and a half, sometimes two must be observed, to truly start a seasonal new year. Planting of crops can benefit from the true observance.

Nature can be a blueprint for us to see cycles and harmony. Nature shows us how things change with time. Nature shows us how some things evolve and can not be 'fixed' without change.

To just be told something, and accept it, offers little growth and understanding. But it is still a path of offering a wisdom of Earth and Spirit. There are many paths we can learn something from. When I went researching all religions....I found the Holy Spirit in every single one of them. Not one was without the Spirit. But also, not one was without Earthly natures as well.

If a path is working for a person, that is what matters. If they grow as a spiritual being...this is what matters. I only offer my own understanding along with others that are offered.

All my best

[edit on 13-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 06:23 PM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Hey Abuaisha

Originally posted by Abuaisha

Starting with the topic : son of God or God's Son.

The verses in Bible which gives and understanding the relationship of Almighty God/Father with Jesus(PBUH) as a Son of God. Do you actually believe Jesus(PBUH) as biological Son of GOD?

No, not biological…

The bible talks a lot about the things of spirit and things of the flesh. Jesus was the first being to be made by God in the spiritual realm, so to speak. It is Jesus spirit which came to dwell in the body of a man, when he walked the earth. That’s how Jesus is the son of God, it has nothing to do with the biological IMO.

This is why Jesus says in John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Originally posted by Abuaisha
The "Son of GOD" title that was given to Jesus wasn't the only title for him. Jesus was also called "Son of David." Keep in mind that Jesus came after 1000 years after King David. Jesus was also called "Son of Man". See Matthew 1:1, Matthew 9:27, Matthew 12:23, Matthew 15:22, and many other verses.

Jesus is also called the “son of David” because he is from the family line of David. Jesus is referred to as the “son of man” because that is the phrase used to describe the coming Messiah in the old Testament.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
Is the Man whom Jesus was called his son (possibly David) ? Is David divine since Jesus is his Son or do you say he is a real son of David?

Like I said above, it is not about the biological, it’s about the spirit.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
Jesus was called:

Son of GOD,Son of David, Son of Man.

Why consider Jesus as the actual biological Son of GOD, when the same expression was used for King David being Jesus' Father who existed 1,000 years before Jesus?

The same expression is used for others because we are all created by God in the Spirit, hence we are all “sons of God”

Originally posted by Abuaisha
Why can't "Son of GOD" that was used for Jesus be just an expression just like the "Godly" titles and "Son of GOD" expressions that were used for others before Jesus as well as shown above?

Because Jesus is “The son of God”, Gods first creation, that’s what makes him different from us. Also the bible alludes to the fact that through God/Father and Jesus, all other things were created.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
According to your last post and accepted given formula:

Holy Spirit = God Spirit + Jesus Spirit.( Wrong formula)

Next post you described me Holy Spirit=God's Spirit. I agree with this formula upto some extent. Lets play swaping game.
God's Spirit=Holy Spriit.

Spirit is a creation of God. Not God himself or His part.

It’s not a swapping game. The term “Holy Spirit” is often replaced with “The Spirit of God” depending on which bible version you are reading. It’s just two different phrases, to describe the same thing. For example the King James bible uses the phrase “The Spirit of God” more often than the term “Holy Spirit”.

“The Spirit of God”, is a much better description of the “Holy Spirit” IMO.

Jesus says I and the Father are one, and that he is in the Father. In John 14 Jesus is talking about various things to do with receiving the “Holy Spirit” i.e. “The Spirit of God”. Jesus goes onto say in verse John 14:20 “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”.

These are some of the reasons why I believe Jesus spirit, is in the Fathers/Gods Spirit.

IMO The “Spirit of God” is a part of God.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
John 5:37 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If you say above verses was only referring to group of Jews and cannot be understood generally for everyone whom Jesus(PBUH) referring than we can conclude other meaning that other than Jews, we all can see God & hear His voice. How can you explain this?

I don’t understand your question.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
Still i'm confused, what do you mean 'he spoke to me'? Did you hear some kind of voice in your ear? Shall i understood "he spoke to me" literally? Much appreciate if you can give some logical explanation. Thanks again.

Yes I heard a voice and I believe it was God.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
Can you make two way communication? If yes, i will much thankful to you if you can get the answers of my questions which i have mentioned in my last post.

I can only make two way communication in the sense that I can pray to God. I only heard Gods voice twice. The last time I heard it, it was God who asked me a question, and too make a long story short, this eventually led me to receiving the “Holy Spirit”, while I was reading John 14 one night.

Originally posted by Abuaisha
By the way what do you mean by speaking directly?

What I mean is that sometimes when Jesus is speaking, it is the Father/God that is speaking directly through Jesus. This happens many times in the New Testament, where Jesus is speaking to various people in real time. I mean he isn’t hearing Gods voice or an angel and then later writing it down, he is instead having God speaking directly through him, which can clearly be seen in many of his responses to people.
For example…

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Of course this is only one of many examples, but the fact that Jesus has Father/God speaking directly through him, has to tell you that there something very unique about Jesus compared to other prophets.

- JC

posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 08:25 PM
Neither a sacrifice nor a judgment.

He is an archetype who nevr existed and if he actually tried to sacrifice himself, it was refused by God because it would be an immoral thing to do.

To Jesus’ sacrifice.

Why have you forsaken me is answered with this.

Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Psa 49:7 None [of them] can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 09:54 PM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Hi Abuaisha/

Your quote////Exodus 3

When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"And Moses said, "Here I am."
"Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."
Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

The Lord God called Moses THREE times!
The Lord God also adressed Moses in this way ..."I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (Ex. 3, 6).
The Old Testament is a pre-figuration of what is to come!
Jesus Christ fullfilled all that was written in the Old Testament and this is why Jesus Christ says....

Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one God; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might. And these words which I command you this day shall be placed upon your heart, and you shall teach them to your children,
and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house,
and when you walk by the way,
and when you lie down and when you rise..." (Deut 6:4-8).

These words from the Law of Moses are quoted by Christ as the FIRST and greatest commandment (Mk 12:29).
They follow upon the listing of the Ten Commandments which begin,
"I am the Lord your God ... you shall have no other gods besides me" (Deut 5:6-7).

The one Lord and God of Israel revealed to man the mystery of his name.
And Moses said... "...if they ask me,
'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?"

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."
And he said,
"Say to the people of Israel,
'I AM has sent me to you.'"

God also said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel,
'Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac,
the God of Jacob has sent me to you: this is my name forever,
and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.'" (Ex 3:13-15)

is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is to come! (Rev 4:8b).
Let the evildoer still do evil,
and the filthy still be filthy,
and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.
Behold, I am coming soon,
bringing my recompense,
to repay every one for what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the first and the last,
the beginning and the end.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.
I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star (Rev 22: 11-16).
He who testifies to these things says,
"Surely I am coming soon."
Come, Lord Jesus!
The grace of the Lord be with all the saints. Amen (Rev 22:20-21)
One of MANY prophecies fullfilled.....
Moses said,
"The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as He raised me up.
You shall listen to Him in whatever He tells you.
And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people." (Acts 3:22-23)

Jesus is "that prophet" whom Moses spoke about in the Old Law (Dt 18:15).
But even Moses and all the prophets of old did not realize that "that prophet" would be the divine Son and the uncreated Word of God in human flesh.
Jesus, as the final Prophet, is more than a prophet.
He is radically different from the prophets of old.
He is the "teacher come from God" (Jn 3:2), Who "speaks as one having authority" (Mt 7:24, Mk 1:22),
Who speaks not His own words,
but the words of the Father Who sent Him (Jn 14: 24).
But He is even more than this because He is Himself the divine Word of' God in human flesh.
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through Him,
and without Him was not anything made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (Jn 1:1-4)
No other prophet has EVER claimed to be the Living God!
There is NONE other prophets sent out into the world....
God is of the Living and the dead!
In Christ we die and live with Christ for ever!

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (Jn 1:14)

And from His fulness have we all received, grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has ever seen God; the only Son who is in the bosom of the Father,
He has made Him known. (Jn 1:16-18)

That Prophet - Paraclete - Muhammad.

... In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14,15,16) Jesus spoke of the "Paraclete" or comforter who will come after him, who will be sent by (sic) Father as another Paraclete, who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth (whose meaning resemble Muhammad's famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy) he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26). Such a designation is however inconsistent with the profile of that Paraclete ... It was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper. ~Read more on what PARACLETE IS~

Interpreting SCRIPTURE to fit in with God's Word is so wrong!

The Gospel of Barnabas is promoted by Muslims as an original Gospel written by the man named Barnabas[1] who it is claimed was a disciple of Jesus (p. 2).
We will now consider this book to see if he does.
If Barnabas really is the author then it is reasonable to expect that he would be familiar with the basic facts of Jewish life at this time. READ THE REST HEREThus they claim it was written by a Jewish man in the 1st century A.D. who travelled with Jesus............


posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 11:42 PM
I think sometimes people don't fully understand the power of God and what is at work, when it comes to Jesus, then they try to pooh pooh on his actual divinity and all that makes him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

As the Messiah, he resurrects inside the individual. This is the real power of God at work. Thousands of years ago, Jesus resurrected INSIDE King David. David was anointed not once but three times. Jesus became his Lord. This is the meaning behind David saying in a psalm "The LORD said to my Lord." The same thing was/is at work with the prophets. Not everyone receives the exact same measure of the fullness, evident by we are not all on the same page.

By God's Spirit, Jesus was birthed into King David, and that is the meaning of being called the Son of David. This is now available to anyone who applies the scriptures and teachings, that Jesus set forth in a spiritual sense and then all can have what David had. God doesn't let a whole bunch of "sons" birth into people - only Jesus. If it happens to you, then you will understand why he is called the Son of man and more importantly why he is the one and only Son of God. This gift comes no other way but by Jesus. He is unique. One of a kind. God broke the mold with this one.

This is why Jesus states that there is no other way to the Father but through him. He is the narrow path called the way for a definative reason.

Everyone should strive for the full measure of joy, which is referred to as the double portion. Read all of Isaiah 61, which is what Jesus read in the synagogue and told them that today 'this is fulfilled.' Within the text, you will find a reference to the "oil of gladness" and this is the oil of the anointing made available to all.

The key to opening this sweet smell is repenting. There are things we will all go through in our lives, where we get a chance to really become close to Yah. Always keep in mind, that all day long Yah holds his hands out to us but most people only reach back when they are faced with personal tribulation. But if you read Isaiah 61 you will see that is what he is banking on. When things get out of control seek His face.

On topic: His blood is both.

[edit on 14-6-2010 by Myrtales Instinct]

posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 04:12 AM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

Hi LV,

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. Appreciate what you wrote. As always there are some of your views i agree and some i dont. The explanations which you have given about our body/spirit/soul and human functions i have mentioned it what i feel is correct in the light of Islam. Rest Allah know the best.

I agree with your statement "God see's these things in your heart" Its Islamic view.

The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said, “The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended.”

In another narration Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) said : "Deeds are judged according to the intention." The place of the intention is not on the lips. It is in the heart.

Our deeds - what we do externally, are judged ultimately by the states of our hearts. These are good deeds.

"I think souls go when we sleep". Agree with this too. I have mentioned this in my last post that when we go to sleep Allah take our soul. Our soul travels to the heaven, it even meets with another soul with the intercession of the angel. Sometimes we have good dreams in which we sees beautiful things in our dreams; this is because the angel takes our soul and passes through a beautiful places and sometimes we see scary dreams because devils try to interfere and try to scares our soul.

[This is where we get 'ghost' or a wondering 'soul'.] If you mean ghost(devil/Shatan) than they are not wondering soul. In Arabic we say "Jinn". The Jinn are beings created with free will, living on earth in a world parallel to mankind. They are created 2000 years before us. And there are different types of them. If one is mentioning the evil ones that antagonize humans they are called shaitan/devil.

All super natural powers and vision is something god gifted and for test purpose. You can sit in one corner of the room and have a vision whats going on in the next room,next place or other location. As a human we have a limitation of such types of act;but we perform such things with the help of some supernatural powers (Angel or Jinn) which even we might not know that something is attached to us.

I want to share some thing about Islamic point of view which we call Angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit). In one of the prophetic narration of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) have said:

"If Allah has loved a servant[of His], He called Gabriel and say: 'I love So-and-so, therefore love him." " He(Prophet Muhammed PBUH) said : "So Gabriel loves him. Then he (Gabriel) calls out in heaven, saying: ' Allah loves So-and-so, therefore love him.' And the inhabitants of heaven love him." He (Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)) said : "Then acceptance is established for him on earth. And if Allah has abhorred a servant [of His], He calls Gabriel and says: ' I abhor So-and-so, therefore abhor him.' So Gabriel abhors him. Then Gabriel calls out to the inhabitants of heaven: 'Allah abhors So-and-so, therefore abhor him."" So they abhor him, and abhorrence is established for him on earth."

Regarding the fasting you mentioned i would like to quote a prophetic narration on this too..
Prophet (peace be upon him), who said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says:

"Fasting is Mine and it I who give reward for it. [A man] gives up his sexual passion, his food and his drink for my sake. Fasting is like a shield, and he who fasts has two joys: a joy when he breaks his fast and a joy when he meets his Lord. The change in the breath of the mouth of him who fasts is better in Allah's estimation than the smell of musk. "
Trust in God
The Prophet (PBUH) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.


Regarding the Sacrifice

Allah says in Quran : It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah, but it is piety from you that reaches Him. (Quran 22:37)


You acknowledged that "walk the path that Jesus walked". You followed the path of Prophet Jesus (PBUH), his teaching and guidance. Therefore, you cannot say that everyone has to choose their own personal path and experience the life by their own. This is a point where religion influenced a lot. You learn about right and wrong through prophetic teachings. I would now simple asked you a question. How did you acquired so much knowledge? Not simply by having good or bad experience in the life but by reading religion scriptures and following the prophetic ways. That how you learned about the sole purpose of life. Dont you? I would still argue that by following simple personal path you cannot reach God. Only way to reach Almighty God is to follow the foot steps of His messengers & prophets. Other path lead to astray.

former people, a former belief

"With religions...they all evolve from a former people, a former belief. What men believed back then is understandable, if you can place yourself in their shoes and see what they had understanding of and what they did not".

When you say former people and former belief you mean general people or the prophets of God? I will again ask you a question : Wont your children be more welcoming to put their trust & belief in you and place themselves in your shoes for proper understanding of a life? Parents guide their children in every aspect of life. They know what is good for their children because they simply lived their life and experienced it whole. So they know what is good for them. Dont you provide teaching to your children what you have learned from the Scriptures and past people? Sure you do. If you say NO than i would say you can start the practical example with your children without giving them scriptures(religious) knowledge or prophetic teachings. Even do not mentioned about the past prophets and messengers (Abraham, Moses, Jesus & Muhammed) (PBUTA). What do you think? They will not even recognize the word 'God' and what it means in our day to day life.

to be continued...Inshallah..

posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:27 AM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

Choosen People according to Quran & Bible

Quran is an Arabic word which literally means ' the recitation'. Its a true WORD/SPEECH of Almighty God to all of the Mankind. The unique quality of the Quran covers all of the previous original books that were also revealed to the previous prophets such as:

-The scriptures of Ibraheem
-The Psalm given to Dawood (David)
-The Torah given to Musa (Moses)
-The Gosphel given to Eesa (Jesus)

There are many other books of an unknown number and with unknown names.The Quran being the last revelation of God has been protected from change since its revelation and free from contradictions because it is a book to all of mankind.

The Quran was revealed in the pure Arabic language to the Prophet (PBUH). Its the sister language of Aramic & Hebrew. One of the greatest miracles of the Quran is the knowledge or meanings it presents.

For example, the scientific phenomena that Quran has described long before they were understood.

Such as:

1) Separation of Fresh/Salt water in the sea instead of their mixing,
2) Embryonic development stages in the mother's womb, etc. and many mores.

Although the Quran presents these miracles and much more, it is not a book of science but a sign and more importantly a book of guidance which holds the true secret of righteous guidance from the one and only God to all of mankind.

Quran does not only talk about Prophet Ismail (PBUH) and his family tree but about the religion of Abraham(PBUH). Even Jesus(PBUH) comes from the family tree of Abraham(PBUH).

Now let see what bible says about choosen peoples. Prophet Abraham(PBUH) is widely regarded as the Patriarch of monotheism and the common father of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. God’s promises to bless the nations of earth through the descendants of Abraham(PBUH) before any child was born to him.

Genesis 12:2-3

2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

God’s promise again in (Genesis 17:4) after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.

Genesis 17:4

"As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations

See Genesis Ch21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become “a great nation” especially in Genesis 21:13-18..

Genesis 21:13

"I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring., " Who was the maidservant? I guess you all know the answer "Hagar". Mother of Prophet Ishmael.

Genesis 21:18

"Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." Who is this boy? Son of Maidservant (Hagar); Prophet Ishmael.

According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17. The traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his Mother (being a ‘free’ woman such as Sarah, Isaac’s mother, or a “Maidservant” such as Hagar, Ishmael’s mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.

Deuteronomy 21:15

"If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love."

Deuteronomy 21:17

"He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father's strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.

The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham’s son and “seed” and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham’s wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3.

Genesis 21:13

I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring.

Genesis 16:3

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

After Jesus(Peace be Upon Him), the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God’s promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600 years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him), from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God’s blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham’s family tree was now fulfilled.

There are some prophesies in the Book of Isaiah which talks about Prophet Muhammed(PBUH).

Above is a short summery of great nations in Quran & Bible.

I request all of the reader with honest heart, try to learn the original text (Aramic/Hebrew) or just try to open a dictionary of (Aramic/Hebrew) and see the correct translation. The 3 sister language ( Aramic, Arabic & Hebrew) does not contain upper case or lower case word. This thing you will only find in English. In this 3 languages one word may have many different meaning. Like for example the english word 'bear'. It can have many meanings.

Finally,i can only conclude that Islam can only provide social, political and spiritual life for mankind.

posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:31 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

Hello Abuaisha!

Hope all is well...

The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended

If you do something for reward...are you doing it for true reasons of the heart? A pth that offers reward, could just be a marker for the being in that this shows that thier inner nature 'thinks' good works should be rewarded, instead of doing things...just because they are the right things to do. Just think about it. On the path of self (seeking reward in heaven, on earth, through ascension/rapture/harvest ect 'take your pick) is a path of self, learning about the 'individual'. But ultimately, we are all one, and our purpose is to find this and figure it, there can be no unity on this sphere without this understanding and unity is the most prime vision held for us here. A path of living for others, instead of the 'rewards for self, ascension for self, rapture for self, harvest for self, salvation for self' what the true service of the soul is.

I would not of experiences a personal path, if I was seeking reward, salvation, ascension, harvest, rapture, ect. I had to let go of those ideas, for none of them was a honest seeking of Thee.

All super natural powers and vision is something god gifted and for test purpose.

I wouldnt call such things supernatural, I believe there is a science to it, I believe it involves that we are a form of light, we are energy, we are a vibration.

"If Allah has loved a servant[of His], He called Gabriel and say: 'I love So-and-so, therefore love him."

So Gabriel loves so and so without true understanding of why so and so should be loved? Is this not somewhat be told something, and just do it? Where is the understanding?

This is a point where religion influenced a lot.

Walking the path that Jesus walked, did show me things. But what I found, was that this path is elsewhere, also. The link I posted for JoeCroft about the 'offering of the deer' which was a Buddah writing, shows the same nature, the life of Martin Luther King, shows the same nature, there are movies that show someone willing to sacrifice/offer themselves, for the world or mankind to 'learn' something. I was watching 'contact' the other night and saw how a lady was willing to offer herself, even if it might mean death upon her, for mankind to learn about something. She said, 'sometimes, there are things that are worth, 1 human life'. These are not prophets and messengers, they are people, authors....who see the worth and value of the offering of a 'self'.

My personal path went against mst of the Bible I grew up with....but the path of Jesus is where I found the nature of the Spirit the most in that book, yes.

I Credit Jesus's good works, to him. It takes strength, it takes selflessness, it takes deep compassion for the Spirit, it takes deep compassion, for the other selves that are here, it is not a easy path to over come all Earthly attachments, even family and loved ones, and walk the straight path of living for Spirit. The reason he could go on and make a plce for others...was by walking the path he walked....he knew, he was making a place somewhere, he knew, he was 'creating' something. By walking such a path, you can be, a first fruit of a womb, you can make a place for others.

Other path lead to astray.

I have to ask, how much trust do you really place in Thee then?

Wont your children be more welcoming to put their trust & belief in you and place themselves in your shoes for proper understanding of a life? Parents guide their children in every aspect of life.

My home, has more Bibles then any other type of book. My children, see me do my own searching in many places. When they ask questions, I carefully give my general thoughts, but ultimatly tell them, the answers are to be sought one day on their own path, within their own self.

My children were invited to attend Bible school this week. Last night was the first night of it. I took my youngest who is 4, my girl who is 12, and my 13 year old boy decided he did not want to go (I let him decide for himself). Even though this is not my religion, I want them to know I will not judge them for what feels right to them. I want them to know above all things, they are loved. Last night I sat around a bit watching the signing and service to the children. The talk was all about repenting sins, admitting you are a sinner ect. My girl asked me later....momma, if we have to admit we are sinners, why did God allow us to be like this. I asked her....if you tell a lie, how does that make you feel inside? She said...bad, it makes me feel bad. I said, what does this 'feeling' teach you?' She sat there a minute. The said, it teaches me that lying isnt good. I asked her....who made us with feelings? She said...God. I said...mabey God made us with the ability to do wrong, for a reason, and then gave us the feelings to know when we do wrong, for the same reason. So with my kids...I dont try to tell them right out anything for sure....I try to show them, how to use reason, intuition, feelings, understanding. Raising children is tough....but I will defiantly not tell them, there is only one right way. If they discover that there is a path that feels right to them, I will support that for them. I have talked to my children about things like 'getting saved' and told them that if something like this is to be decided, I think this is something that should be done as a adult.

My son had a experience when he was 5 that may be beyond what religions can explain for him. He is very into aliens, ufos, and life beyond Earth. I try to let his natural interests and natures find their place. I dont tell him I KNOW for sure anything, about any of that. If he asks my thoughts on such things, I say....many things are possible.

I know Gods love is unconditional but I dont try to prove this to anyone. I know, all find their way to be what God holds for them to be.

How can God work through the people that already have their mind made up of what God is, how Thee works, and does not trust that God will lead them?

All my best to you,

posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:34 AM
reply to post by Abuaisha

My response to this is short....

The Holy Spirit is life, Gods word, is found therein. Within the blueprint of the Universe and environment around you, the word has always been here. Never needing updated, changed, or added to. Perfect from the start.

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