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The blood of Jesus Christ...a judgement or a sacirifice?

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posted on May, 31 2010 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 



Hi

I’m going to try and use an analogy to better explain my first post on page 5…


Imagine a soldier, who has been given a mission to deliver a message. The message must be delivered to an army who are in danger because an enemy is fast approaching them. Unfortunately the soldier is going to have to get past the enemy in order to deliver the message to the captain of the army. The soldier knows that it is a risky mission and that he might get killed (from Jesus/God perspective, God knew Jesus would be killed by men)

The soldier does his best to deliver his message but along his journey he gets shot a few times and is bleeding heavily. He finally makes it to the camp and crawls into the captains headquarters. The soldier reaches into his pocket and hands an envelope to the captain, which contains the coordinates of the enemies position and details of what the captain must do to avoid the enemy. After he has handed over the message, the soldier because he has lost too much blood, dies from his wounds.

I would say that the solder gave his life for those men but it is not his death/blood that saves them, but the message that he died to bring that saves.

This a partly how I see Jesus dieing for sins but you have to remember that God/Jesus knew in advance that man would reject the truth and that he knew Jesus would be killed, for standing up for the truth.

I believe that Jesus died for us in the sense that he brought us the message to help us with our sins. Just like my analogy above, he brought the message knowing he would be killed for it and only in that sense, died for our sins. Most Christians on the other hand, I think, are looking towards Jesus actual physical death and blood shed on the cross, as being that which saves them of all of their sins.

I don’t mean to downplay Jesus actual physical death on the cross, because I believe that it shows us that death is not real and that Jesus/God loves us enough to go through the pain of death to help us get to know God and turn away from our sins.

I believe that Jesus died to help us with our sins. Jesus said that if he didn’t go away, then the Holy Spirit wouldn’t come and by this he was referring to his death/resurrection and ascension back to God. Those who believe in Jesus can now receive the Holy Spirit, which connects us back to God and helps us to keep the commandments i.e. it help us with our sins. The Holy Spirit does not forgive us of all our sins in one go, we still have to pray for forgiveness from God to be forgiven,(which is what Jesus teaches), we still have to try and walk the path but having the Holy Spirit with us, helps us to do those things.


I hope that makes more sense…



- JC


[edit on 31-5-2010 by Joecroft]

[edit on 31-5-2010 by Joecroft]




posted on May, 31 2010 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Hi Jeocroft,

Good analogy.

Now the question is what was the "MESSAGE" ? Can you give me the answer with authentic proof from OT & NT?

Furthermore which 1 you belive?

Jesus is Prophet/Messenger of God.!
Jesus is Son of God.!
Jesus (Son of God), Father & Holy Spirit (These three are 1).!



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 




Hi Abuaisha



Originally posted by Abuaisha

Good analogy.

Now the question is what was the "MESSAGE" ? Can you give me the answer with authentic proof from OT & NT?


Well it’s hard to some up Jesus entire life message and teachings in just a few words and Jesus teachings can sometimes be specific to a particular area of our lives.

In the OT, it was prophesized that Jesus (among other things) would come to fulfill the commandments and this is exactly what Jesus does. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbor as thyself, and that we should pray to God for the forgiveness of our sins. Jesus tells us that we must believe in him and seek the born of the spirit experience.



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Furthermore which 1 you belive?

Jesus is Prophet/Messenger of God.!
Jesus is Son of God.!
Jesus (Son of God), Father & Holy Spirit (These three are 1).!


That is a difficult question because not all Christians are in agreement.

Well, Jesus is a prophet because he prophesizes about the future (The fall of Solomon’s temple for example)

He is also a messenger of God because he delivers God/Fathers message but Jesus is unique compared to other prophets and messengers, because he has the spirit of the living God dwelling within him, who in various verses in the 4 gospels, speaks directly through Jesus.

I recommend you read the whole of verse John 14, it teaches a lot about the Holy Spirit.


John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.



John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.




John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.



IMO, the spirit of Jesus and God/Father together, is what the Holy Spirit actually is and they come to dwell in a person, when they believe in Jesus.

Jesus constantly refers to God as his Father throughout the bible, so it would make sense, that he is the son of God.



- JC


[edit on 31-5-2010 by Joecroft]



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Hi Joecroft,

Thank you for your reply.

Truly said. But i disagree with the your last statement "Jesus constantly refers to; God as his Father throughout the bible, so it would make sense, that he is the son of God."

Reply: Son of God, son of David, or son of Man? Jesus is identified as “son of David” fourteen times in the New Testament, starting with the very first verse (Matthew 1:1). The Gospel of Luke documents forty-one generations between Jesus and David, while Matthew lists twenty-six. Jesus, a distant descendant, can only wear the “son of David” title metaphorically. But how then should we understand the title, “son of God?” Jesus called himself “Son of Man” frequently, consistently, perhaps even emphatically, but where did he call himself “Son of God?”

Let’s back up. What does “Son of God” mean in the first place? No legitimate Christian sect suggests that God took a wife and had a child, and most certainly none conceive that God fathered a child through a human mother outside of marriage. Furthermore, to suggest that God physically mated with an element of His creation is so far beyond the limits of religious tolerance as to plummet down the sheer cliff of blasphemy, chasing the mythology of the Greeks.

With no rational explanation available within the tenets of Christian doctrine, the only avenue for closure is to claim yet one more doctrinal mystery. Here is where the Muslim recalls the question posed in the Quran: “…How can He have a son when He has no consort?...” (Quran 6:101)

…while others shout, “But God can do anything!” The Islamic position, however, is that God doesn’t do inappropriate things, only Godly things. In the Islamic viewpoint, God’s character is integral with His being and consistent with His majesty.

So again, what does “Son of God” mean? And if Jesus Christ has exclusive rights to the term, why does the Bible record, “...for I (God) am a father to Israel, and Ephraim (i.e. Israel) is my firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9) and, “...Israel is My son, even my firstborn” (Exodus 4:22)? Taken in the context of Romans 8:14, which reads, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God,” many scholars conclude that “Son of God” is metaphorical and, as with christos, doesn’t imply exclusivity. After all, The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion confirms that in Jewish idiom “Son of God” is clearly metaphorical. To quote, “Son of God, term occasionally found in Jewish literature, biblical and post-biblical, but nowhere implying physical descent from the Godhead.”

And in any case, the list of candidates for “son of God” begins with Adam, as per Luke 3:38: “...Adam, which was the son of God.”

Those who rebut by quoting Matthew 3:17 (“And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘This is My beloved son, in whom I am well pleased’”) have overlooked the point that the Bible describes many people, Israel and Adam included, as “sons of God.” Both II Samuel 7:13-14 and I Chronicles 22:10 read, “He (Solomon) shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.”

Entire nations are referred to as sons, or children of God. Examples include:

Genesis 6:2, “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men…”

Genesis 6:4, “There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men…”

Deuteronomy 14:1, “Ye are the children of the Lord your God.”

Job 2:1, “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD…”

1 John 3:1-2, “Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! … Beloved, now we are children of God…”

to be continued... Inshallah (God Willing)



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 01:14 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


continue...

Christian clergy openly acknowledge that Jesus never called himself “son of God,” however they claim that others did. This too has an answer.

Investigating the manuscripts that make up the New Testament, one finds that the alleged “sonship” of Jesus is based upon the mistranslation of two Greek words—pais and huios, both of which are translated as “son.” However, this translation appears disingenuous. The Greek word pais derives from the Hebrew ebed, which bears the primary meaning of servant, or slave. Hence, the primary translation of pais theou is “servant of God,” with “child” or “son of God” being an extravagant embellishment. According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, “The Hebrew original of pais in the phrase pais theou, i.e., ebed, carries a stress on personal relationship and has first the sense of ‘slave.’ ” This is all the more interesting because it dovetails perfectly with the prophecy of Isaiah 42:1, upheld in Matthew 12:18: “Behold, My servant [i.e., from the Greek pais] whom I have chosen, My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased …” Whether a person reads the King James Version, New King James Version, New Revised Standard Version, or New International Version, the word is “servant” in all cases.

Considering that the purpose of revelation is to make the truth of God clear, one might think this passage an unsightly mole on the face of the doctrine of divine sonship. After all, what better place for God to have declared Jesus His son? What better place to have said, “Behold, My son whom I have begotten …”? But He didn’t say that. For that matter, the doctrine lacks biblical support in the recorded words of both Jesus and God, and there is good reason to wonder why. Unless, that is, Jesus was nothing more than the servant of God this passage describes.

Regarding the religious use of the word ebed, “The term serves as an expression of humility used by the righteous before God.” Furthermore, “After 100 B.C. pais theou more often means “servant of God,” as when applied to Moses, the prophets, or the three children.

A person can easily get into doctrinal quicksand: “Of eight instances of this phrase, one refers to Israel (Lk. 1:54), two refer to David (Lk 1:69; Acts 4:25), and the other five to Jesus (Mt. 12:18; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:27, 30)…. In the few instances in which Jesus is called pais theou we obviously have early tradition.” So Jesus did not have exclusive rights to this term, and where it was employed the term “obviously” stemmed from “early tradition.”

Furthermore, the translation, if impartial, should identify all individuals to whom the phrase was applied in similar manner. Such, however, has not been the case. Whereas pais has been translated “servant” in reference to David (Acts 4:25 and Luke 1:69) and Israel (Luke 1:54), it is translated “Son” or “holy child” in reference to Jesus (Acts 3:13; 3:26; 4:27; 4:30). Such preferential treatment is canonically consistent, but logically flawed.

Lastly an interesting, if not key, religious parallel is uncovered: “Thus the Greek phrase pais tou theou, ‘servant of God,’ has exactly the same connotation as the Muslim name Abdallah—the ‘servant of Allah.’”

to be continued...



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 01:59 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


contiune...

The symmetry is all the more shocking, for the Nobel Qur’an relates Jesus as having identified himself as just this—Abdallah (abd being Arabic for slave or servant, Abd-Allah [also spelled “Abdullah”] meaning slave or servant of Allah). According to the story, when Mary returned to her family with the newborn Jesus, they accused her of being unchaste. Speaking from the cradle in a miracle that gave credence to his claims, baby Jesus defended his mother’s virtue with the words, “Inni Abdullah …” which means, “I am indeed a servant of Allah …”

Translation of the New Testament Greek huios to “son” (in the literal meaning of the word) is similarly flawed. On page 1210 of Kittel and Friedrich’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, the meaning of huios journeys from the literal (Jesus the son of Mary),

to mildly metaphorical (believers as sons of the king [Matt. 17:25-26]),
to politely metaphorical (God’s elect being sons of Abraham [Luke 19:9]), to colloquially metaphorical (believers as God’s sons [Matt. 7:9 and Heb 12:5]),
to spiritually metaphorical (students as sons of the Pharisees [Matt. 12:27, Acts 23:6]),
to biologically metaphorical (as in John 19:26, where Jesus describes his favorite disciple to Mary as “her son”),
to blindingly metaphorical as “sons of the kingdom” (Matt. 8:12), “sons of peace” (Luke. 10:6), “sons of light” (Luke. 16:8), and of everything from “sons of this world” (Luke 16:8) to “sons of thunder” (Mark 3:17).

It is as if this misunderstood word for “son” is waving a big sign on which is painted in bold letters: METAPHOR! Or, as Stanton eloquently puts it, “Most scholars agree that the Aramaic or Hebrew word behind ‘son’ is ‘servant.’ So as the Spirit descends on Jesus at his baptism, Jesus is addressed by the voice from heaven in terms of Isaiah 42:1: ‘Behold my servant … my chosen … I have put my Spirit upon him.’ So although Mark 1:11 and 9:7 affirm that Jesus is called by God to a special messianic task, the emphasis is on Jesus’ role as the anointed servant, rather than as Son of God.

-------
What did Jesus(PBUH) taught and what was his Message?

The man was a teacher. He taught the Law of Moses. He was impressed to see Jesus answering the questions of hypocrites and heretics with wisdom.

“One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’”

He felt it was his opportunity to ask Jesus, the Great Teacher, what was the most important commandment, how he can be saved, enter life and the Kingdom of God.

Now, we need to shed all our biases, everything we have been taught in Sunday schools, and all the teachings of mortal men. All who love Jesus should let him talk:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’”

A great answer to a great question: accept the Lord our God is One, love Him, and worship Him to the best of your ability.

Jesus was not finished. He had more to teach. Obviously Jesus was teaching the man everything he needed to get into the Kingdom of God. Jesus added:

“…The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

The Great Teacher further clarified:

“There is no commandment greater than these.”

The man who questioned Jesus repeated the commandments to make sure he got them right:

Mark 12:32 “‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him…’”

Jesus seeing the man had learned the greatest commandment correctly gave him the good news:

to be continued..



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 02:18 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


...continue

Jesus seeing the man had learned the greatest commandment correctly gave him the good news:

Mark 12:34 “When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’”

There are some significant lessons in this story:

First, Jesus taught the man more than he asked, yet he did not say he is the son of God, or the Savior sent to redeem mankind of its sins. He did not say anything remotely similar to what people are instructed to repeat to be ‘born again’ in Christ, “You should individually receive me, accept me as the Son of God, your personal Lord and Savior who will die on the cross for your sins and will rise from the dead. Let the Holy Spirit fill you…”

Take what Jesus said and leave what people have added.

Second, salvation depends on this commandment. Jesus made it clear when another man approached Jesus to learn from him (Mark 10:17-29). The man fell on his knees and said to Jesus:

Mark 10:17-18 “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied: “Why do you call me good? No one is good — except God alone.”

Third, Jesus confirmed there is no commandment greater than these. In case, someone might think the greatest commandment changed afterwards, Jesus told us:

Matthew 5:17-19 “For assuredly, I say to you, till the heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one title will by no mean pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Fourth, anyone who loves Jesus and wants to enter life must keep the greatest commandment of Jesus as he said:

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

Matthew 19:17 “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

Fifth, a sincere Christian should accept what Jesus said without twisting his words or finding hidden meaning in them. Jesus taught exactly what Moses taught some 2,000 years before him:

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”

Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, taught the same eternal truth ALL the prophets of God taught to their people: God is One, worship Him alone.

Deuteronomy 6:13 “Fear the Lord your God, serve Him only and take your oaths in His name.”

Deuteronomy 5:7 “You shall have no other God besides Me.”

Isaiah 43:11 “I even, I am your Lord and besides Me, there is no Savior.”

Hosea 13:4 “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no savior except me.”

Psalms 95:6-7 “O come, let us bow down and worship, let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker. For we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His voice and He is our God.”

Jesus emphasized this teaching to Satan as well:

Matthew 4:10 “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.”

Sixth, the Quran confirms the greatest commandment of Jesus. The Quran teaches us exactly that God sent all the prophets with the same teaching: to worship the One true God alone.

“…And your God is One God: there is no god but He…” (Quran 2:163)

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him...” (Quran 17:23)

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): ‘none has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me.’” (Quran 21:25)

to be continued...Inshallah(God Willing)



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 02:33 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


..continue

Seventh, on the Day of Resurrection, the Quran tells us that God will ask Jesus:

“And [beware the Day] when God will say, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as gods besides God?...’” (Quran 5:116)

Jesus will respond:

“He will say, ‘Limitless are You in Your glory! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Verily, it is You alone who fully knows all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being’s perception. I said not to them except what you commanded me – to worship God, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You alone had been their keeper:’ for You are witness unto everything. If You should punish them – indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.” (Quran 5:116-118)

I ask our Almighty Lord to gives us a all proper understanding of his religion and show us his correct path to worship Him alone. Ameen.

Last i want to conclude with the topic of SIN. Our Beloved Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) had taught us the way to get the forgiveness of our Major & Minor Sins. Please let me know if anyone of you wants to know the information.

May be Peace and Blessing to all our Prophets & Messengers and those who had followed the straight path untill the day of Judgement.



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Hello friend!

Like I said...its not bad we see things differently, it only shows we have reasons for understanding it from different perspectives.

I know what the book says...I know it says that the Jesus had to come in order for us to be able to receive the Holy Spirit. But through what I only know to describe as a guidance through the Bible and understanding....we have never been denied the Holy Spirit, it has always been available to us, and its not ever going to be taken away.

I dont mind at all discussing it all here if you want to...if you want to have a discourse about it. I guess I would start by asking you specifically, explain what you understand within you, why the Holy Spirit could of not came to us before the life of Jesus? If your going to answer...'cause of sins', then let me suggest, God meant for us to be here, its not a mistake that we learn in a world of dualities or what seems in a absence of God Thee self. Let me suggest, the world is exactly as it was meant to be for our spiritual purpose.

And then, Im going to ask, who was this 'wisdom' that David so loved. He often called it a 'she' 'her' and talked how much he loved her. You will notice the nature of this 'she' is always a comforter, nurturer....never wrathful, jealous, prideful.

Much love
LV


[edit on 1-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 03:16 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Hi Lv.

Nice to hear from you.

I will start this post with Quranic Verse..

"They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: ‘The spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)'" (Qur'an 17:85).

The Qur'an confirms that little knowledge is given to the Mankind concerning His Ruh(Spirit). But for the sake of discussion on this topic i will try to explain you with my little knowledge given by Almighty Lord.

In my previous post, i have already acknowledge that we all do have spirit of our Lord (Allah). And its mentioned in Quran many places. But there is a difference in Spirit of Allah and Holy Spirit.

The Qur'an uses two terms "Ruh-Allah(Spirit of Allah)" and "Ruh-ul-Qudus (Holy Spirit)" for the Spirit of God. Such is the case in the following references:

"We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs [of Allah's sovereignty], and we supported him with the al-ruh-al qudus (Holy Spirit) ." Quran 2:87.

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud. '') . "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) of My spirit (the soul which I created for him,) then fall down, prostrating yourselves before him.''). So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together.) Quran 15:28-29-30.

Note that the above quotations from the Qur'an make reference to God, to His Word, and to His Spirit. If one examines these references carefully, one could agree that the Qu'ran does indeed teach a belief in the Word of Allah, and the Spirit of Allah as well as in Allah the Almighty.

The word spirit is connected with breath and, therefore, with air. The breath is what keeps us alive and yet air was a mystery in that it was invisible. Spirit, therefore, stands for something very subtle. It refers to inner experiences - consciousness, conscience and will. It is responsible for revelation, inspiration, intuition and insight as opposed to knowledge which comes through the outer senses. The Spirit is by the Command of Allah: "The spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)'"

One of the Islamic Scholor explained the meaning of "Ruh (Spirit) " and "Nafs (Soul)". Is it same or something different.

He stated that it is light and soft, like air, flowing through the body like water through the veins of a tree. He states that the Ruh(Spirit) which the angel breathes into the fetus is the Nafs(Soul), provided that it joins the body and acquires certain qualities because of it, whether good or bad. So then it is either a soul in (complete) rest and satisfaction (Quran 89:27) or inclined to evil (Quran 12:53), just as water is the life of the tree, then by mixing with it, it produces something else, so that if it mixes with grapes and the grapes are then squeezed, it becomes juice or wine. Then it is no longer called water, except in a metaphorical sense. Thus we should understand the connection between Nafs(Soul) and Ruh(Spirit); the Ruh(Spirit) is not called Nafs(Soul) except when it joins the body and is affected by it. So in conclusion we may say: the Ruh(Spirit) is the origin and essence, and the Nafs(Soul) consists of the Ruh(Spirit) and its connection to the body. So they are the same in one sense but not in another. This is a good explanation, and Allah knows best.

to be continue....



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 03:35 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


contiune...

Elsewhere, the Qur’an says:

Quran 38:71 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:"

Quran 38:72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Two things happen here. First God creates man from clay - a substance of this earth, of this material world. Second, he breathes His Spirit into man and since this Spirit comes from God we can assume it to be of a very high, noble substance - at the opposite end of the spectrum from clay. So where does nafs (Soul) enter into this equation.

The Spirit, which derives from God, is a reality that possesses, in some measure, all the Divine attributes. It represents a link, a relation and connection to God. Remember, it is only after this Spirit is breathed into Adam that God orders the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. It is only after this receiving of the Spirit that Adam is given knowledge of the names of all things. The Spirit then manifests in some manner, in some measure, the characteristics, attributes or names of God. It is luminous, alive, subtle, unseen, knowing, unified etc. The body on the other hand, being composed of a low type of matter (clay), has a lack of the luminous divine attributes - instead it represents that aspect of a human which “inclines towards the earth, and follows vain desires” (Qur’an 7:176).
So spirit and body do not have a common measure but represent opposite ends of a spectrum - one is like a breath from God who is Unique, who is One. The other is from the material world which is characterized by multiplicity and dispersion, where true unity is impossible due to the very nature of matter which requires existent material things to be separate and apart from one another in both space and time.

The nafs(Soul) becomes the mediator, the meeting point, between the Spirit and the body. The nafs is characterized by opposing characteristics. It is both luminous and dark, high and low. It is a mixture of the two sides. It possesses the attributes present in the Spirit in a watered down manner. One of the Scholor of Islam refers to the soul by the Quran’ic phrase ‟...it is the junction of the two seas....” (Quran 18:59) The sea of the spirit and the sea of the material world. The Qur’an says:‟ And it is He who has made the two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltiness....And it is He who has created man from the water....” (Quran 25:53-54).

The material world is the visible world or the manifest world (the world of the salt sea that burns). The non-manifest world is the unseen world, the world of the Spirit (the sweet sea that quenches thirst). The human nafs(Soul) is a microcosm containing characteristics of both these worlds, created from the‟water” of both of these worlds.

So the nafs(soul) is a meeting place (a point of overlap, of intersection) where the world of matter and the world of Spirit can come together. Since the nafs(Soul) contains both, humans should strengthen the luminous or‟spirit” aspect of the nafs(Soul). Since‟the spirit is one reality while the body has many parts” any movement towards Spirit represents a movement towards integration and unity. Any movement towards man’s bodily or clay aspect represents a descent toward dispersion and multiplicity. If the Spirit aspect dominates, then order and correct proportion will be given to all of man’s existence - the body won’t be denied its due, but all things will attain the correct proportion. Allah Says in Quran : By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;- Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!” (Qur’an 91: 7-10).



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


contiune..

The Qur’an speaks of three general levels of nafs (Soul)(although gradations within these levels or three phases that the nafs(Soul) passes through in the process of its own purification. "These are the nafs (Soul) that commands to evil” ( Quran 12:53), "the nafs(Soul) that blames” itself (Quran 75:2), and the "nafs(Soul) at peace with itself” (Quran 89:27)..

The Qur’an also tells us that the nafs(Soul) is one of the places where God discloses himself to man. It says:

Quran 41:53 “Soon will We show them our Signs on the horizons, and within their own nafs(Soul), until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth.”

These‟signs” manifest themselves in man’s nafs(Soul). A person who purifies their nafs(Soul) to the appropriate degree will witness these signs within their own selves and will also see the outward universe for what it truly is - a manifestation of God. So the world of the Spirit, of the unseen, can become perceptible to man through the purified nafs(Soul) so that he can witness spiritual realities through the locus of the nafs(Soul).

Because the purified nafs(Soul) is a point of God’s self-disclosure to man, the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH)) said in a statement: ‟He who knows his nafs(Soul), knows his Lord.”

Elsewhere, where the Qur’an speaks about the creation of mankind from a single nafs(Soul), it calls to witness the ‟people of understanding”, again underlining the importance of the nafs(Soul) - its crucial and central role as the joining place between the unity of God’s Spirit and the multiplicity of the material Universe.

Quran 6:98 “It is He Who hath produced you from a single nafs(Soul): here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure: We detail Our signs for people who understand.”

The nafs(Soul) is what makes humans human. It unites two disparate worlds in one location and through this makes it possible for man to draw near to God. It is with the unique nature of this nafs(Soul) that God created the first human and then its mate of a similar nature, and from these two come all other human beings, all carrying this nafs(Soul) with all its latent potential within themselves. This is the nature with which mankind has been created - as a creature capable of knowing God through fulfilling the capabilities, the potentials God has placed within him.

Verse 1 of Chapter 4 in Quran then goes on to say..

”...reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you.”

We are asked to do two things here. One is to reverence God. The other is to reverence the wombs. Because of the manner in which these two are linked, this places a powerful emphasis on the respect due to the wombs through which we are born. It is God who informs us of the rights and obligations due to one another, it is He who sets out the order, precedence, proportion, and organization of these rights and duties and it is our reverence of God that will cause us to respect and fulfil these rights, obligations and duties.

Reverencing the womb is to be mindful of familial relationships and the rights due to those from whom you come and also to be aware of the fact that it is through the creation of the wombs that God has created you and all other human beings after the first two. The womb is the locus of human creation in this world. Even Prophet Jesus/Isa (a.s.) was created by God casting His Word into a woman’s womb. Because of this immense respect for the womb, Islam fosters a powerful respect for mothers within its hierarchy. The reverence for wombs is a reminder to be aware of from where you came.

to be continued...



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


...continue

The reverence for wombs is a reminder to be aware of from where you came. This can also be related in a larger sense to the first part of this verse where the first human emerges, in a sense, from a cosmic womb "...reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single Soul,”. We are asked to be mindful of womb relationships - to remember from where we emerged as an individual. And we are asked to be mindful of our creation by Allah - and to remember from where we emerged as a human being. Before man emerged into this world - God asked all the human souls ‟Am I not your Lord? And they replied, Yes! Of this we bear witness!’ " (Quran: 7:172) The Qur’an reminds us of this pact and asks us, while we are in this world to remember this witness and just as we have to be mindful of the wombs in this world so also we must be mindful of that place from which humans emerged as humans. Just as we are not to cut ourselves off from ties to the womb from which we were born, we should not cut ourselves off from our creation by God.

The verse closes with the words ‟...for God ever watches over you.” which seals the seriousness of this verse and implies that God guards over man with respect to what has been disclosed in this verse with a special concern. So mankind’s essential unity and familial relationship between all its members and mankind’s relationship with the cosmic ‟womb” from which the first man was created is underlined with a strong warning in these last words‟...for God ever watches over you.”

The Soul(Nafs)

According to Quran there are three types of Soul as i have mentioned earlier.

1) the nafs (Soul) that commands to evil” ( Quran 12:53) : This is the level at which most of us exist. Our self consists of a conglomeration of wants, desires, impulses, habits, fears, angers, appetites, tendencies and an ego that constructs a self image that it then seeks to protect and maintain any way it can - even by distorting the true nature of the realities around it. This is the commanding soul - but it is not one which commands but rather it is a self which is commanded by this host of impulses and desires. It wanders distracted or seeks out satisfaction of its wants and justifies its behavior to itself so that it can continue doing what it does, it tends to trap itself in" safe' (self protective), or habitual, or addictive behaviours. At this stage the person is like a kingdom in chaos where the citizens are habits, desires, fears, moods, impulses, and egoism and all clamour for attention and satisfaction and the self is a slave to them pulled this way and that in response to their demands.

2 "the nafs(Soul) that blames” itself (Quran 75:2), : This is the level at which an inner jihad (struggle) is taking place within the self - the person has become aware of a higher, deeper reality and struggles to centre their consciousness so that they do not move erratically from impulse to impulse but so that all action and thought is fed through an aware, conscious centre that struggles to manage and control the self. This is the stage of the active jihad(struggle) - the greater jihad(struggle) by which the lower self is subdued and the higher potentials within a person are opened up. It manifests itself in both inner and outer forms of striving and struggle. The person struggles with turning his inner self and his worldly life towards a new form of living - one that is immersed in a larger, truer vision of the nature of Reality - a Reality of which the material reality is only a small portion.

to be continued...Inshallah (God Willing)



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:20 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


continue...

Here the person begins to realize the truth of the covenant that was made with God before the person's existence on this earth - and he struggles (he performs jihad) in an attempt to make himself true to this covenant. (This is the covenant in which God brings before Himself (in a place outside of time as we know it) all the (souls of the) children of Adam who will ever be born and asks them "Am I not your Lord" - and they answer "Yes". After the acknowledgement of this covenant, they are born into the world at their destined time and place - Qur'an 7:172)

[Please Note: There are different types and form of Jihad(Struggle).]

3) the "nafs(Soul) at peace with itself” (Quran 89:27).. : This is the level at which, as the Qur'an says, the person witnesses God's signs on the horizons and within their own Soul(nafs), their own selves. Their own self (nafs) becomes a place where His signs are disclosed and manifested. When the self is an abode of peace then in the quiet of this abode it becomes possible to witness this manifestation. It is said that God manifests himself in the silences of the soul - so one who is always distracted and busy with the internal noise of desires, passions, distractions, egotism etc. will never be truly conscious of God. In order to listen, in order to hear, one has to be silent. If a person never stops talking, they will never be able to properly listen to another - they will be distracted with their own outpourings, their own opinions, their own ego. They will never reach a point of internal quietude (of peace) and thus that which is subtle will never be experienced. And the qur'an describes God as "The Subtle, the Aware." One has to cease talking, and then cultivate an alert but calm attentiveness in order to see deeper than the surface. Just as the depths of a pond become invisible when the surface water is in constant rough motion, our own depths become invisible when we are in constant agitation and movement. The people of this level know the great Reality behind the world and the endless distractions of this life are seen in their proper perspective - they no longer dominate but yet they are given their proper due.

Each of these levels of the Soul(nafs) represents a phase change within the human being. Each level incorporates a wide range within itself and the spiritual practices, the ritual requirements, the contemplative aspects, the ethical imperatives, the metaphysical teachings of the religion are designed (when approached with the proper intention) to transform the inner substance, the inner structure of the Soul(nafs).

Allah also says in Quran : Those who believed (in the Oneoess of Allah -Islamic Monotheisum), and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allah, Verly , in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest. (Quran 13:28)

Now let me come back to the topic of Spirt & Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is a Universal principle, each person has his own Soul and it can degenerate or it can be made to grow. The soul may be regarded as a local organisation of the spirit and contains the information relating to the individual (his inherited and acquired characteristics and those created by his own efforts at integration).

The existence of the Spirit within man makes him a Vicegerent(Mankind), a person who ought to be serving Allah, and exercising the faculties he has received on behalf of Allah. He was made as an instrument through which Allah can act more directly.

to be continued...Inshallah (God Willing)



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 06:03 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


continue...

Then Allah, Exalted is He, mentioned the story of the angels who were commanded to prostrate to Adam, saying:

(And when your Lord said unto the angels) who were already on the earth: (Lo! I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth), I am creating a vicegerent from the earth, (they said: Wilt Thou place therein), will you create therein (one who will do harm therein) by committing sin (and will shed blood) through transgression, (while we, we hymn Thy praise), pray following Your command (and sanctify Thee) and mention you in a state of purity? (He said: Surely I know that) which shall ensue from this vicegerent (which you know not). (Quran 2:30)

Mankind, having been given some of the divine powers could act partly independently with his own initiative, creativity and sense of responsibility, though still dependent for these powers on Allah. This independence is not possible for the angels. In particular man was given the capacity to form concepts (the Names may also refer to the Attributes of Allah). It is this which gave him the power to do the evil and chaos which the angels feared, but Allah knew better. He could through experiences and trials lead them towards voluntary surrender.

Allah says in Quran The spirit exists in man as a Trust.

(Lo! We offered the trust) obedience and worship (unto the heavens) unto the inhabitants of the heavens (and the earth and the hills) by way of choice and selection, (but they shrank from bearing it) through reward and punishment (and were afraid of it) and were afraid of bearing it. (And man assumed it) Adam assumed it, accepting both the possibility of reward and punishment. (Lo! he hath proved a tyrant) by assuming its bearing; it is also said that this means: he has proved a tyrant by eating from the tree (and a fool) and ignorant of its consequence. Quran 33:72)

Below again we see that man is accused of not allowing it operate on behalf of God.

(Nay, but verily) O Muhammad (man) i.e. the disbeliever (is rebellious) is a wanton, he moves from one position to another with regard to his food, drink, clothing and mount (That he thinketh himself independent) of Allah because of his wealth! (Lo! unto thy Lord) O Muhammad (is the return) of all created beings in the Hereafter. (Quran 96 :6-8)

Now come the interesting part..

This dormant (hidden or inactive) spirit in man can be reactivated by the Messengers. These are persons who have already been chosen by Allah to be guided by the Holly Spirit ( Angel Gibrel).

He sendeth down the angels) i.e. Gabriel and the angels with him (with the Spirit of His command) with prophethood and scripture by His command (unto whom He will of His bondmen) He means Muhammad and other prophets & messenger ( Noah, Abrahm, Moses, Jesus), ((saying): Warn mankind) warn mankind by means of the Qur'an and recite it until they say (none has the right to be worshipped but I) so obey me and profess my divine Oneness. (Quran 16:2)

(The Exalter of Ranks) the Creator of the heavens, Who has raised you above everything, (the Lord of the Throne. He casteth the Spirit of His command) He sends down Gabriel with the Qur'an (upon whom He will of His slaves) i.e. Muhammad (pbuh) (that He may warn) that Muhammad (pbuh) may warn by means of the Qur'an (of the Day of Meeting) of when the inhabitants of the earth and the inhabitants of the heavens will meet; it is also said that this means: when the Creator and created will meet, (Quran 40:15)

to be continue....Inshallah (God Willing)



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


continue..

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was such a messenger guided and inspired by Holy spirit (Angel Gibrel) through revelation.

(Say) to them, O Muhammad: (The holy Spirit) the holy Gabriel (hath revealed it) i.e. the Qur'an (from thy Lord) O Muhammad (with truth) with the abrogating and the abrogated, (that it may confirm (the faith of)) that it may gladden and set at rest the hearts of (those who believe) in Muhammad (pbuh) and in the Qur'an, (and as guidance) from error (and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah)) that they will have Paradise. (Quran 16:102)

Other Prophet's were also Inspired

Verily, We have sent the revelation to you (O Muhammed) as We sent the revelatin to Noah and the Prophets after him: We (also) sent the revelation to Abrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, and the offspring of the twelve sons of Jacob, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, , and Solomon; and to David We gave the Psalms. (Quran 4:163)

Prophet Jesus (PBUH) was such a messenger guided and inspired by Holy spirit (Angel Gibrel).

(And surely, We gave unto Moses the Scripture) the Torah (and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him) to come after him in succession, (and We gave unto Jesus son of Mary clear proofs) commands, prohibitions, wondrous things and signs, (and We supported him) strengthened and helped him (with the holy Spirit) with Gabriel, the purified. (Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you) O group of Jews (a messenger with that which ye yourselves desire not) which does not agree with your hearts and religion, (ye grow arrogant) you disdain believing in him. (And some ye disbelieve) you disbelieve in a group of them, namely Muhammad and Jesus, Allah bless them and give them peace (and some ye slay?) and some you killed, namely, John the Baptist and Zachariah. (Quran 2:87)

Holy Spirit is Gabriel from the Qur'an and the bible, and Jesus was strengthened by God through the Holy Spirit Gabriel.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary." Luke 1:26-27.

We can readily see that the Holy Ghost mentioned in Matthew 1: 18 is himself the angel Gabriel. The Qur'an confirms the same in Chapter 19, verses 17 - 19:

We sent to her [Mary] Our Spirit [Angel Gabriel], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. … [The angel] said: "I am only a messenger from your Lord, [to announce] to you the gift of a righteous son.

Note: The Spirit appeared in the form of a man. This appearance has been called Gabriel. Gabriel is said to be an Archangel made of spirit as angels are made of light.

The Angel Gabriel (Holly Spirit) is the same angel sent with divine messages (revelation) and support of Allah to his prophets.

The same role of the Holy Spirit (Gabriel), as a messenger and a supporter from Allah, can be understood from Luke 22:43 "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him".

See also:..
"For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Luke 1: 15)

Also read:..
"For he (Barnabas) was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith, and much people was added unto the Lord." (Acts 11: 24)

See as well:..
"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5: 32)

to be continued...Inshallah(God Willing)



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:53 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


continue..

Holy Spirit was present long before Jesus and during his ministry

Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:2

And the Spirit of God rushed upon Saul when he heard these words, and his anger was greatly kindled. 1 Samuel 11:6

It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Luke 2:26

Since, the Spirit is in all human beings, the Quran does not regard Jesus as being more than human. But he as a great messenger of God.

Thank you for reading and your patient.

Above all good is from Almighty Lord and any mistake or error is from me.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 



Hi Abuaisha



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Considering that the purpose of revelation is to make the truth of God clear, one might think this passage an unsightly mole on the face of the doctrine of divine sonship. After all, what better place for God to have declared Jesus His son? What better place to have said, “Behold, My son whom I have begotten …”? But He didn’t say that. For that matter, the doctrine lacks biblical support in the recorded words of both Jesus and God, and there is good reason to wonder why. Unless, that is, Jesus was nothing more than the servant of God this passage describes.

Regarding the religious use of the word ebed, “The term serves as an expression of humility used by the righteous before God.” Furthermore, “After 100 B.C. pais theou more often means “servant of God,” as when applied to Moses, the prophets, or the three children.


Yes Jesus is a servant of God and does indeed refer to himself as “a servant of God” in a few passages in the New Testament.

But…


Matthew 26:62-66Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.



In these verses Jesus admits to what the high priest accuses him of i.e. being the “son of God”

If what you say is true and the words of this passage and others have been mistranslated and should therefore read instead “…Tell us if you are the Christ, the servant of God”, then I find it hard to believe, that by admitting he was “a servant of God”, that it would be regarded as a blasphemy, worthy of death!



Originally posted by Abuaisha
Let’s back up. What does “Son of God” mean in the first place? No legitimate Christian sect suggests that God took a wife and had a child, and most certainly none conceive that God fathered a child through a human mother outside of marriage. Furthermore, to suggest that God physically mated with an element of His creation is so far beyond the limits of religious tolerance as to plummet down the sheer cliff of blasphemy, chasing the mythology of the Greeks.

With no rational explanation available within the tenets of Christian doctrine, the only avenue for closure is to claim yet one more doctrinal mystery. Here is where the Muslim recalls the question posed in the Quran: “…How can He have a son when He has no consort?...” (Quran 6:101)


Jesus is regarded in the Old Testament as being the “word” of God and the firstborn of all creation. Through God and Jesus, all other things were created. The spirit of Jesus, came to dwell in the man named Jesus.


Proverbs 8:23-27
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,



Proverbs 8 is regarded as referring to Jesus.


John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.


In the above verse, Jesus refers to himself as “the son”.



John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.



The whole of John chapter 14 discusses the “Holy Spirit” in detail. In the above verse, Jesus is specifically bringing himself into the equation, together with God, when describing receiving the “Holy Spirit”.



John 16: 7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.



Jesus is inextricably linked to the Holy Spirit and in John 16:7 Jesus explains that unless he goes away the counselor (who is the Holy Spirit) will not come. The reason for this becomes clear, when you begin to understand John 14:23.

The things I talk about here, I don’t mention them just because I read them in the bible and believe them by faith…I have actually experienced them and have recently received the “Holy Spirit” while reading John 14 in the New Testament.



- JC



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by Abuaisha
 





Originally posted by Abuaisha
First, Jesus taught the man more than he asked, yet he did not say he is the son of God, or the Savior sent to redeem mankind of its sins. He did not say anything remotely similar to what people are instructed to repeat to be ‘born again’ in Christ, “You should individually receive me, accept me as the Son of God, your personal Lord and Savior who will die on the cross for your sins and will rise from the dead. Let the Holy Spirit fill you…”

Take what Jesus said and leave what people have added.


Most people repeat things because they believe by faith and do not understand. This is why Jesus tells us to become born again, seek the truth and receive the Holy Spirit.




Originally posted by Abuaisha
Second, salvation depends on this commandment. Jesus made it clear when another man approached Jesus to learn from him (Mark 10:17-29). The man fell on his knees and said to Jesus:

Mark 10:17-18 “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied: “Why do you call me good? No one is good — except God alone.”


Yes, people must still keep the commandments, just like Jesus said. Jesus fulfills the commandment by his teachings and also by teaching us how to receive the Holy Spirit, which helps us to keep the commandments.




Originally posted by Abuaisha
Third, Jesus confirmed there is no commandment greater than these. In case, someone might think the greatest commandment changed afterwards, Jesus told us:

Matthew 5:17-19 “For assuredly, I say to you, till the heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one title will by no mean pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”




Originally posted by Abuaisha
Fourth, anyone who loves Jesus and wants to enter life must keep the greatest commandment of Jesus as he said:

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

Matthew 19:17 “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”



I agree, the commandments have not changed.




Originally posted by Abuaisha
Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, taught the same eternal truth ALL the prophets of God taught to their people: God is One, worship Him alone.


I agree that God is one but how many prophets do you know, have raised people from the dead and been raised from the dead themselves?




Originally posted by Abuaisha
Seventh, on the Day of Resurrection, the Quran tells us that God will ask Jesus:

“And [beware the Day] when God will say, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as gods besides God?...’” (Quran 5:116)


I agree, Mary is not God and Jesus never claimed to be God either.


- JC



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