*Video* Small riot breaks out in Phoenix over Immigration bill

Originally posted by JWH44
How do you determine if someone is illegal?

If they have a green card, a visa, a work permit, a birth certificate, SOMETHING that states that they are here legally (I have several means), then they're legal. If they don't, then further examination is necessary. I'm not an immigration agent. I don't have all the details of every single eventuality. But if someone cannot prove their citizenship, regardless of their skin color, then an investigation into their citizenship is called for.

You're trying to make it clear that I don't have all the answers. Let me help you. I DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. This is not my line of education. But you asked me what I would do and I told you.

They are good points for people that already have legal status and can provide the paperwork requested.

If they cannot, then more investigation is called for. Yes, there are loopholes. Yes, it won't catch every single illegal immigrant, but it will bring the numbers WAY down.

What is acceptable as a means for suspicion that cannot be viewed as profiling?

The inability to provide proof of citizenship when one requests the services I've mentioned many times.

I am simply trying to get people to realize that there is some level of intrusiveness that has to be acceptable in order to weed out the illegal aliens.

Yes. Absolutely. There will be some intrusion into every citizen's life who wishes to be employed, go to school, receive non-emergency medical care or whoever gets arrested for committing a crime. I have never stated otherwise. (This already happens, to a degree, by the way.)

I'm getting a new social security card for a name change and the people offering the service have intruded into my life. Boo-hoo. I'm ASKING for something. If I want it, I will gladly provide proof that I am who I say I am.

[edit on 4/24/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Even if I get flamed to no end, some one has to say it....

In Arizona, the Americans WERE the original illegal aliens! See, the problem that I am having with all this is the use of the term "illegal alien". When the original "illegal aliens" came to this country, they did nothing more than steal land, kill and rape the natives and then when they were defeated, the natives were put into RESERVATIONS!

Then the "United States" (who came here without asking) made all these "laws" as they saw fit in order to benefit them and them only. Not to mention that the US is a corporation!

When Mexico achieved its independence from Spain in 1821, what is now Arizona became part of the Mexican Territory Nueva California, also known as Alta California. In the Mexican–American War (1847), the U.S. OCCUPIED Mexico City and FORCED the newly founded Mexican Republic to give up its northern territories, including what later became Arizona.

They OCCUPIED Mexican land and then FORCED Mexico to give up their land!

Now, they just passed a new "law" which is not a law at all, but a STATUE! The difference being that a law of the land and a statue HAS THE COLOR OF law.

These people, even categorized as "illegal aliens" were not born "illegal", they are people like you and me that have the right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness etc which are rights that we are all born with, not just Americans.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Originally posted by Somewhere gal
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

They need to enforce the new law during these riots......you know who will be there!! Why would "Legal" immigrants be rioting!

Just another example of PROFILING.

You aren't going based off any FACTS...you are just seeing a darker skin tone and passing judgement.

And YOU are providing absolutely no viable alternative! Yes, it is profiling... it is how LE catches suspected terrorists, it's how LE catches drug dealers, it's how LE catches snotty white boys for insider trading. Whether you like it or not, profiling is a proven tactic.

And if you don't, you can blame those who came here illegally for it, and the Mexican drug cartels for shining a huge spotlight on it. Those right there are the only two groups of people to blame for this. Is it unfortunate that some native or naturalized Latin-Americans are going to wrongfully be asked to prove their citizenship? Yes, but again, those two forementioned groups of people are the sad reason why.

This bill isn't a final solution by any stretch, it's not even close - enforcing existing immigration laws and holding employers accountable for hiring illegals would be better, but until that comes down the pike at least this is a start. Unless of course murdered ranchers and 20 million people not paying into the system to help out don't bother you, y'know, everyone's oh-so-delicate sensibilities and all...

Originally posted by greenovni
In Arizona, the Americans WERE the original illegal aliens!

What were the immigration laws at that time?

Card The Anglos!!!
No cop should have the right to come up to you and demand identification without probable cause! Just because you have brown skin doesn't mean your here illegally. Please don't use some dumb A** terrorist argument. This is a bunch of racist Anglo Saxons trying to justify the bigotry. I wonder how people would feel that support this law if the law applied to them. If I was a cop in that State I would id every Anglo Saxon I came across and if they refused I would arrest them and through there A**** in jail. Do you think they would get a little pissed? If every cop demanded id from all the Anglo Saxons they came across in Arizona, the law would be repealed immediately.

If you are going to be tough on immigration, then it should apply to everyone from anywhere. That means carding everyone. Unless you know them of course. In that case, I would still demand there id just to piss them off. I have to go now, I'm going to demand identification from my mother....

reply to post by Tyr Sog


I read an article the other day where somewhere a bunch of Chinese people got arrested and some are getting deported.

I guess they are going after all the yellow people too.

Good for Arizona and it's citizens. If you stop the employers from giving jobs to illegals, you stop the demand for illegals.

As long as this goes, people on both sides will be generalizing as follows:

Against the bill:
-All the cops will profile
-All US citizens will be humiliated and harassed
-Everyone for this bill is racist

For the bill:
-All illegals are Mexican

NOW, let's go for some FACTS

-AZ is close to MEXICO, therefore, the illegals targeted will most likely be those that resemble Hispanics
-Profiling, whether racial or not, happens in all walks of life. What's going to happen here is that it will be a means to an end (finding who is illegal)
-Illegal is ILLEGAL. No one has a problem with those coming here legally. However, illegal aliens are the ones creating the stereotypes and bringing down the standard of living for everyone.
-Everyone says they're taking jobs "we don't want." The truth is, they're taking jobs we would do, but not do for 3 dollars an hour. (and this is the lower end, some are getting paid quite a bit albeit lower than the standard for those in that same profession)
-People come here illegally because they probably do not have the resources or means to do it illegally. This can be tied to their socioeconomic standing, which means they probably aren't highly educated and probably cannot perform a lot of highly skilled jobs
-I'm sure everyone here would agree with me that if the population becomes saturated with uneducated people, it will decline the productivity and standard of that community. (That's whats happening in the border states and places where illegal immigration is prominent)


I am ALL for this bill and I hope it happens here in California. I'm not going to lie, I have Mexican friends, but when I see the majority of Mexicans here, they are so ghetto. It's not a stereotype, it's an observation. I feel bad for stereotyping, but that's where this point has gotten to. The Mexican Culture has attributed itself to these stereotypes.

You see an Asian person, or an Indian person, or a European person, your first thought isn't illegal immigration. You see an an Asian, Indian, European community, your first thoughts aren't about gang fights, theft, poor economy. The illegal immigration problem occuring in the border states are perpetuating these stereotypes and lowering standards for EVERYONE. And this isn't talking about lawfulness. As citizens of this country, we have the unwritten right in protecting OUR rights and preserving OUR standard of living. Sure the constitution states let everyone to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. However, do it all legally. We have laws for a reason.

YEAH!!!! no get ready for the next round and encircle them arrest them all and check statis and ship them back.
Sorry I understand thier plight but they make it buy coming here illeaglly. Period! 3 cheers for Arizona Governer!!! hip hip hooray x 3~~~

Originally posted by likeabull
Card The Anglos!!!
No cop should have the right to come up to you and demand identification without probable cause! Just because you have brown skin doesn't mean your here illegally. Please don't use some dumb A** terrorist argument. This is a bunch of racist Anglo Saxons trying to justify the bigotry. I wonder how people would feel that support this law if the law applied to them. If I was a cop in that State I would id every Anglo Saxon I came across and if they refused I would arrest them and through there A**** in jail. Do you think they would get a little pissed? If every cop demanded id from all the Anglo Saxons they came across in Arizona, the law would be repealed immediately.

If you are going to be tough on immigration, then it should apply to everyone from anywhere. That means carding everyone. Unless you know them of course. In that case, I would still demand there id just to piss them off. I have to go now, I'm going to demand identification from my mother....

Stop and think before you post such blatantly uneducated bias. Whites have been doing that for years. Every time they go through a checkpoint, every time they get stopped for a traffic violation, every time they renew their car tags and license. Whites have to show birth certificate, social security card AND a valid picture ID to even get a job. So PLEASE, tell me how you feel it is unfair that hispanics have to prove they are here legally?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by greenovni
In Arizona, the Americans WERE the original illegal aliens!

What were the immigration laws at that time?

Which is exactly the point! Come to a place, steal the land, then with your little group of friends "make up" a "law" that benefits you only.

well it would appear that the national opinion
on the situation is a go for immigration

www.cnn.com

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/219a478bc339.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Night Star

 

I have lived in a safe city for many years until the influx of illegal immigrants came here. An increase in crime was evident.
...
Hispanic names in the paper all the time relating to crimes.

And this one can identify an illegal BY NAME ALONE.


We truly have some exceptional people here.


No racial profiling though...nope..that isn't going to happen.

Maybe an assumption on my part, but we never ever had the thefts and violence etc that we have had since the influx of illegals. Trying to use a little common sense. Also it appears that those who are legal actually care about our country and obey its laws. They have respect where the illegals don't.

My husband is Portuguese, born and raised here as were his parents. With his nice tan he could easily be profiled. He isn't worried in the least and neither am I. We know we're legal and can prove it. If we didn't have such an invasion of illegals, none of this would be happening right now. So let them profile whoever if it will help weed out the illegals.

yawn last I checked the crime rate in Arizona, is pretty high, and most crimes ARE coming from people that are not American, citizens. I am not in politics, so I do not have to worry about being right or wrong with my opinion, but some kinda immigration bill needs to be enforced. Non citizens using our hospitals for care and literally not even thinking about paying for the bill, getting the best care in the World, which I am sure could be debated over, is BS. Their is allot of illegal aliens giving Good illegal aliens a very bad name, crossing the border to traffic drugs, or commit crimes. Ironically this appears to be the prime meridian. If you disagree thats fine, is the bill fair, is it on the right side of right? Is it trying to protect or citizens? These are the questions you need you ask. If your ignorant and think this its a race thing, then I am not sure if you really care for America. Also Ellis Island is a totally different scenario, to be honest I kinda like Russia's Immigration policy. Especially with our new Health care reform..

[edit on 24-4-2010 by Bicent76]

Originally posted by greenovni
Even if I get flamed to no end, some one has to say it....

In Arizona, the Americans WERE the original illegal aliens! See, the problem that I am having with all this is the use of the term "illegal alien". When the original "illegal aliens" came to this country, they did nothing more than steal land, kill and rape the natives and then when they were defeated, the natives were put into RESERVATIONS!

Very true!

But what do we do now, 150 years later?

Hand the states over to the Mexican government? How many people that have flooded over the borders were once thrown off their own private land?

Should we just let them flood across, regardless of economic and other consequences?

This falls into the domain of the either Mexico demands the lands back (i.e. war), or we have to make the best of it we can. Talk about a slippery slope.

If you have a realistic solution to this problem I'd love to hear it. ..

Getting back on point here...

I am a Hispanic man, I have been stopped many MANY times by white police officers over trumped up accusations like:

1. A crime was committed and you fit the profile
2. You failed to completely stop at the stop sign
3. I have the right to demand ID from you
4. Identifying yourself to an officer of the law IS the law
5. etc etc

When you have a police officer smack you around, or another police officer stick a gun in your mouth, or charges brought against you for "resisting WITHOUT violence" and the many other run ins that I had when I was younger and you were called beaner, spic, lettuce picker etc

You'll really know what being profiled is all about.

Not to mention that I am the ONLY kind of Spanish that does not need a green card. (Quick test for those of you who think that you can point out an "Illegal")

I am grown now, I have opened my eyes, I KNOW about their courts of contract, their admiralty ways, the way they get together to plan out how to bring certain people down just because they don't like them.

My ONLY wish as a grown man now is that an officer would stop me and ask me for my birth certificate.

I would not give it to him, I would let him make the assumption that I am either an Illegal or not.

I would let him arrest me so I can go after his BOND and would LOVE to be "deported" to some other country so I can challenge the law all the way to the supreme court! Not to mention the multi million dollar lawsuit against everyone involved...

The way to stop this illegal immigration problem is easy.

New "law": Any company/employer who employees illegal aliens will be fined as followed:

1-10 illegals = $55,000 fine per illegal
11-20 Illegals = $100,000 fine per illegal
20+ Illegals = Closure of your company and CRIMINAL charges to the whole board of directors.

If you think that you can tell an illegal just because of the way he looks or his/her Spanish surname, then take this little test with out using google:

What is the only kind of Spanish that does not need a green card?

Originally posted by greenovni

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by greenovni
In Arizona, the Americans WERE the original illegal aliens!

What were the immigration laws at that time?

Which is exactly the point! Come to a place, steal the land, then with your little group of friends "make up" a "law" that benefits you only.

When I was born laws were in place. No one alive today had anything to do with stealing land from the indians. These are completely different times. Hell, one of my indian ancestors immigrated from Canada to America and joined with other tribes here as most of their own in Canada were killed off. We are living in today not yesterday. Today we have laws.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by greenovni
Even if I get flamed to no end, some one has to say it....

In Arizona, the Americans WERE the original illegal aliens! See, the problem that I am having with all this is the use of the term "illegal alien". When the original "illegal aliens" came to this country, they did nothing more than steal land, kill and rape the natives and then when they were defeated, the natives were put into RESERVATIONS!

Very true!

But what do we do now, 150 years later?

Hand the states over to the Mexican government? How many people that have flooded over the borders were once thrown off their own private land?

Should we just let them flood across, regardless of economic and other consequences?

This falls into the domain of the either Mexico demands the lands back (i.e. war), or we have to make the best of it we can. Talk about a slippery slope.

If you have a realistic solution to this problem I'd love to hear it. ..

Hey IgnoranceIsntBlisss Nice to meet you!

No, we do not need to hand the lands back, they are already "ours" so the solution is quite easy.

Have the IRS collect the massive fines given to all of these companies that hire illegals. Start the fines at $55,000 per illegal and up up to criminal prosecution of the whole board of directors.

It's just like the drug problem, go after the drug dealers and fine them, tax them, jail them out of existence!

If there are no jobs in Arizona for illegals, there would be no illegals in Arizona.

reply to post by greenovni


I condemn, brutality. I am sure their will be cops out there with their Caesar, complex's, we have laws to protect our citizens for that also. I dunno, its complicated. Yet bad things obviously are happening in Arizona, and it seems, non citizens are doing it. I am sure the bill will be redefined in time as well. Yet having riots, and making violence is not the answer...

Originally posted by greenovni
The way to stop this illegal immigration problem is easy.

New "law": Any company/employer who employees illegal aliens will be fined as followed:

1-10 illegals = $55,000 fine per illegal
11-20 Illegals = $100,000 fine per illegal
20+ Illegals = Closure of your company and CRIMINAL charges to the whole board of directors.

Not a bad idea, except it will only run off the good 'ol souls who are just trying to mail money home to their families. It wont directly weed out the ones who are only here for crime. Then they'll have to be 'profiled'... not to mention all the various service industry mom and poppers out there who don't have a typical place of business to be inspected. But vastly more importantly is weeding out the organized crime.