*Video* Small riot breaks out in Phoenix over Immigration bill

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
IMO building a wall is a waste of money because it won't solve the problem...but I wouldn't be arguing against it if that is what was decided. If the government wants to build anything on their side of the border...more power to them. But isn't going to work.

Oh? Then what will? You just said the only time to catch them is when they cross the border, and thereafter they're 'free', so then wouldn't cutting them off at the pass be the way to go?

For your second question...

Which you didn't answer. The question was if police happen across illegals in their oridinary affairs, like a traffic accident or whatever, shouldn't they be allowed to take them in to the deportation center?

this shouldn't be the job of local police officers..because as I have been arguing...it will lead to profiling of innocent American citizens.

Couldn't it be that local officers, you know the ones who live in and participate in the local community, might have a better chance at knowing who's legit and who isn't than the state boys? Surely the state boys will still be profiling wont they?

I think the point we're missing is that if this bill was the routine 30 years ago it wouldn't pose such a crisis now that its time to get real. But does that mean we shouldnt get real now, in order to get a balanced situtation where it wouldn't even be an issue?

ICE does their job...they do raids all the time...but they investigate and do it properly...they may not do it fast enough for some people...but they do their job.

That's why there a 500,000 illegals in Arizona alone????

Originally posted by JWH44
So then you admit that people need to be able to PROVE that they are legal United States citizens by carrying some form or document in the event that they are suspected of being illegal?

No. Nowhere did I say that. (what do you mean "admit"?) Are you reading my posts? ONLY if they apply for a job, go to the Dr., request federal assistance or are arrested (they will have to provide it).

They don't have to carry anything, but if they want something, they will have to bring it when they ask for it.

reply to post by LurkerMan

oh but if I were to go to mexico on vacation, and get stopped at the border on the way back, i suppose thats profiling too?im an american citizen and based on your logic hes just supposed to already somehow know that.

whether they stop you at the border or in the the country the REASON for the stop is THE SAME. to VERIFY citizenship.

your logic is LAUGHABLE

No...it is not PROFILING because they are stopping EVERYONE. How do you not understand this?

Now if they were only stopping hispanics at the border, or whites at the border to check passports...then that is profiling. BUT THEY DON"T DO THAT...THEY CHECK EVERYONE...hence...no profiling.

It's not hard to understand...but I don't think you really understand what "profiling" means.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
It's not hard to understand...but I don't think you really understand what "profiling" means.

I'm beginning to think that several people don't understand that.

Good points, Outcast. Good posts.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
ONLY if they apply for a job, go to the Dr., request federal assistance or are arrested (they will have to provide it).

They don't have to carry anything, but if they want something, they will have to bring it when they ask for it.

Hmm.. This almost sounds reasonable...

But what about if we're actually trying to clean house? Does that mean the Dr. can detain them, or the employers should make citizens arrests?

If illegals are arrested for various crimes, should they be deported, let go, incarcerated and then deported (or let go)?? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from here...

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


LOL...Italians were never required to prove they weren't in the mob or get arrestted...that is a poor argument.

When do you have to "show your papers"??? I can walk down the street with no ID...I can't be arrested for it...it is not illegal to not have ID on you.


And a cop can't search a group of white kids JUST because they have pot shirts on...if he SMELLS POT...then he can. I don't think you understand the law very well.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Also, the biggest problems many have with illegal immigrants are that they use our medical system, government assistance, our educational system and they commit crimes. If we put a filter on each of these - that guarantees that only legal citizens can obtain these services, and those caught in this filter will be sent to immigration, it will screen out the vast majority of illegal immigrants. If they cannot obtain these services, they won't come here.

You stated that, to obtain medical services, you need to prove that you are a legal citizen. I don't know when I'm going to get into a car accident and have to be taken to the emergency room. I won't have time to go home and get my birth certificate and hope that someone is around in the state health department to answer the phone, look up the info and verifiy that I am who I say I am. So one of two things should happen. 1. I am denied medical attention because I can't prove my legal status. 2. I carry the info with me at all times to prove my legal status.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


oh but wait, i thought they were stopping based on race?
im not mexican so if i get stopped they must be profiling white poeple too.

they are profiling everybody!!!



back to reality, the reason they stop everybody has nothing to do with race.

be it at the border, or elsewhere.

"how do you not understand this????????!?!?!"

Ok here it is i think the bill was justified to protect the citizens of Arizona as well as the American public.I have had several Hispanic friends tell me that not only do coyotes bring hispanics into the country but Africans,Hndus,Arabs and other races here.

The friend said it was far easier for them to enter Mexico City and sneak into the U S i mean cmon how many of these folks could be terrorist or even bring a bio-weapon here.

Then also it's Arizona where illegal activity is off the chart.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


surely you arent saying that the only illegal immigrants in this country are mexican?

hmm id say thats somewhat racist in itself.

the truth comes out.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Wow Outkast its hard to imagine I would ever agree with you hehe, I am glad you are not so liberal with these issues as you are with health care.

Yes this is a huge problem, and they do not need to profile, just check everyone for their paperwork. Problem is the millions of illegals here obviously are going to oppose these types of bills, what happens when these millions or even hundreds of thousands decide to stand up violently against our customs and laws?

It is a fine line between homeland security and third reich, we don't want this to impede the lives of those who are legal to be here, but we have got to some how boot out those who are destroying our economy and our culture.

But don't think this is the beginning or the end, there are going to be very bloody parts to removing the illegals and Americans need to do their part, whatever that will be.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
But what about if we're actually trying to clean house? Does that mean the Dr. can detain them, or the employers should make citizens arrests?

No. When you call to get your Dr. appt, the nice lady says, "Make sure to bring your birth certificate to your first appointment. You cannot be treated without it." And when you get there, you hand it to her and she tells you to have a seat and she takes it into the next room and calls the health dept of the state to confirm and this conversation takes place. If there's a problem, security calls the police and they arrive to arrest the person who is pretending to be someone who they are not.

If illegals are arrested for various crimes, should they be deported, let go, incarcerated and then deported (or let go)?? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from here...

They should be handed over to federal immigration. And they will deport them. This is a federal situation. There are federal laws that must be enforced.

[edit on 4/24/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
When do you have to "show your papers"??? I can walk down the street with no ID...I can't be arrested for it...it is not illegal to not have ID on you.


And a cop can't search a group of white kids JUST because they have pot shirts on...if he SMELLS POT...then he can. I don't think you understand the law very well.

Apparently it is you who do not understand the law.

1) You will be detained until you can provide ID or someone can bring it to you (you were kinda right.. but kinda wrong also)

2) Profiling is legal, wrong, but legal in the US. A cop can't search a kid with a pot shirt because he hates pot but he can search a kid with a pot shirt if the cop makes a case that he is looking the part of a person who would have cannabis. Really the line between bias based profiling and legal profiling is pretty blurry.. and cops not only can search someone for looking the part, they do all the time. And when it comes court time, the word of the police officer is gold.

----------------------------------------------------

The problem is that the Federal Government does not enforce immigration laws. Plain and simple. If the federal government enforced the laws on the books, or we had an agency that could actually enforce them, Arizona would have never thought about passing this bill.

But here we are, flooded with illegal aliens.

I don't necessarily agree with profiling but if you truly cared about finding a solution to the problem and championing civil rights you would be picketing the federal government... but you're not... you're here on ATS telling everyone how ignorant they are... here's your reward -----> .

Originally posted by Scarcer
...as illegals poor out of Arizona for work and living, other states will see a wave of people coming in.

This was my first thought too. Illegals are not going to pack up and trek back to Mexico. This is going to put them on the run. They will leave Arizona for the surrounding states.

If they do start enforcing this in other states, then anyone can be approached and asked for ID's. We will all have to get a National ID to prove we are here legally, because documents can be faked, just like that employer that laid off the 300 workers said.

Originally posted by JWH44
You stated that, to obtain medical services, you need to prove that you are a legal citizen.

I have said several times "NON-EMERGENCY medical services." Several times. I have also said, "We treat ALL emergency patients."

I am beginning to think that you're not interested in my opinion, but interested in proving something by twisting my words.

And I'm not interested in that.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Ah... you ignored my scenario. I will tell you from personal experience that aliens here illegally DO NOT call and schedule doctors appointments. That might require them to go through the process you just described. They wait until they are sick and then they go to the ER, where they are guaranteed treatment (hospitals cannot turn away injured or sick people, period). Then they simply don't provide documentation, payment or legitimate information and go about their way.

ICE is sometimes called, but they are not required to go to a hospital based on the staff's suspicion that a patient might be illegal. Once the aliens are in the door, they are getting their health care. And guess what? If that alien goes in for renal failure and they require intensive treatment to live the hospital is required to provide it. All without any documentation or promise of payment.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
LOL...Italians were never required to prove they weren't in the mob or get arrestted...that is a poor argument.

They've been profiled as being mafioso crinimals, for generations. FACT!

Many stereotypes are grounded in some fact. It is a fact that some of the most visible, well known members of organized crime have been of Italian descent. In the news just recently, was the high profile Gotti family. The Mafia stereotype is grounded in fact, but the media has perpetuated it, and made it seem to be much more a cultural norm than it is in reality. To see the media's representation, would be to assume that certain types of criminality are inherent in the Italian ethnic group. Actually the imprisonment rate was much higher in the early 1900s for English and Welsh born immigrants than for Italian born immigrants (presentation, Syracuse University, 2000). LIN K

Being stereotyped as inherently being criminals inherently leads to police profiling. Yet somehow they've survived, even though the numbers of actual criminal mafioso's has always been marginal statistically?

According to 1999 F.B.I. Statistics, the total number of Italian criminals in the United States was 1,150 or approximately .0078% of the entire Italian American population. The Department of Justice estimates that about 5,000 people are in organized crime. Not all these criminals are Italian Americans. The breakdown includes people of Latino, Asian, Russian, Jewish and Chinese ancestry, as well as Italian. Italian Americans have constituted little more than five percent of the fugutives on the F.B.I.'s Most Wanted List over the past 50 years. According to FBI records, only 5.6 percent, or 26 of the 458 fugitives whose names have appeared so far on the FBI's famous list have been of Italian descent. No Italian Americans are currently on the list (OSIA website).
wik.ed.uiuc.edu...

When do you have to "show your papers"??? I can walk down the street with no ID...I can't be arrested for it...it is not illegal to not have ID on you.

Nice try:
en.wikipedia.org...

If I a citizen have to endure a Police State then so do any and all illegal aliens.

And a cop can't search a group of white kids JUST because they have pot shirts on...if he SMELLS POT...then he can. I don't think you understand the law very well.

Yeah. He just says that he did smell it and there you go. The thing is kids smoking pot aren't even a detriment to the economy, and they have to endure all the BS, but you people scream that you're exceptional over everybody else.

I dont even like the laws, but damn any notion that anybody who illegally crossed the borders is gonna get it better than people whose ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War.

And spare me the arguments... I dont like the system as it is, but in effect this new thrust isn't even a step in the wrong direction. This 'new' wrong direction has already been in place for everybody else everywhere for decades, so this is merely using the existing universal 'wrong idea' in a way that is overall the right direction.


[edit on 24-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


And I am interested in your opinion; you seem to be one of the most level-headed ones in the discussion. I'm simply pointing out the reality versus the theory.

Originally posted by JWH44
Ah... you ignored my scenario.

I did not. You didn't read my post. We will treat ALL EMERGENCIES. Period.

Emergencies cannot be included in this "screen". Some illegal immigrants will get by the medical care screen, but they will not be able to get a job, go to school or get government assistance. Without a job or a place to live or any income, they will have to hang out somewhere with NO income OR commit crime to survive.

As I said, it will take years to screen our population. But it would work, I believe.

[edit on 4/24/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

I agree 100% I am all for this bill. I live in Florida and I would love to see this happen here. I am so tired of illegals complaining about this country and how their country is better yet they want to be here! It also makes me nuts when they refuse to speak English and expect ME to speak Spanish. I know quite a few people like this and they are here ILLEGALLY and it pisses me off. I shouldn't have to press "1" for English! I have no problem with people being here from all over as long as it is done legally and they speak English. If you like this country so much that you want to live here then learn the history and culture too. Nobody says they have to give up their culture while becoming an American just respect ours culture too. I want to live in France and I will but I want to make sure I speak the language fully and understand their culture. I have read quite a bit on France for many years and their way of life is one of the reasons I fell in love with France. I get crap for it all the time