The Trinity is not real, nor is it logical!!!!!!!!

reply to post by Neo__


Neo:

I almost cried when I read your post. So many of us have poorly tried to say what you did. Your words were beautiful and explained the Trinity [to me] so well that everyone should understand how "it" all comes to be.

Thank you!
Grandma

The Father = God
The Son = God
The Holy Spirit = God

See the pattern?

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Seriously, as you all have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Bible, much like the Quran, can be interpreted to say pretty much anything you want it to, or support any position you want it to. The real problem is that you all are so sure about your own positions, that you fail to see what I'm talking about. Take the blinders off and look at it with a truly open mind... Something I have yet to see any of you really do yet...

what are you doing here?

your making all these statements about the bible and yet im sure sure you dont even study it. ever consider the possibility that sometimes religion is not about worshipping god?

its more about tradition and comfort and acceptance by others in their religion. to these the bible "can be interpreted to say pretty much anything you want it to, or support any position you want it to."

to everyone else, that statement is beyond false

Originally posted by Neo__
Just because the Christian Trinity is spoken as "the three persons in one Godhead", doesn't mean that they are people like you and me. Do not read too much in this personification of God. It's not literal and can confuse if read to the dead letter.

The Christian Trinity represents the basic elements of life and is similar to the Hindu Trimurty, which is "a concept in Hinduism in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahmā the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śhiva the destroyer or transformer".

ok, so no scriptures to show us how any of this is true, and you need to use another religion's trinity to describe the christian's?

i suppose that is fitting since both trinities can be traced back to the city of babylon

people.

with all due respect. what is the point of religion?

isnt it to worship god?

isnt the bible god's revelation to man?

isnt the bible the standard from which we determine doctrine?

"proof" of the trinity boils down to several scriptures. john 1:1; john 10:30 and 1 john 5:7

1 john 5:7 -

this scripture was added. debate over. not admissible as evidence.

even if it was, it doesnt even fit the context of the chapter. the chapter is refering to salvation and by verse 6, it is talking about baptism.

you cant have 3 witnesses that are the same person. in court that would never fly. in verse 9, God is a witness that testifies about his son Jesus.

verse 7 is a square peg in a round hole.

john 10:30

"i and the father are one"

seems straight forward enough, lacks the holy spirit so not technically a trinity but we can ignore that for the moment.

there are 2 ways jesus meant that. either 1- he was saying that his father and he were the same person. (trinitarians prefer this) or 2- jesus was saying that he and his father were united.

there is only one way to prove it one way or the other. you need a second scripture that states it again. then from the context, a conclusion can be made (precept over precept)

there is one other scripture where jesus says he and the father are one.

john 17:[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

here jesus is making a direct comparison between the oness of HImself and God and the oness of his followers.

we can see clearly from this scripture that when jesus says "i and the father are one" that he means unity, not "we are the same person"

John 1:1

the only reason "the word was god" stands is because you have several scholars that maintain it is correct. when it comes to scholars, mostly they are split about this scripture.

greeks however are not. the greek orthodox religion IS trinitarian. but they do not use john 1:1 to prove it

why not? because of a present "the" and absent "a"

other verses supply the needed "a" to make it make sense in english. acts 12:22 (herod’s voice is a god’s voice) and acts 28:6 (paul is called a god)

but most translators (who happen to believe in the trinity) feel that rendering john 1:1 "a god" would be contrary to john's meaning. this is an extremely subjective conclusion.

its basically saying, the verse should be rendered this way because this is what we believe.

john himself clarifies his meaning...

john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

---------------------------------------------------------------

at this point, being as the trinity literally has no backing from the scriptures. other more confusing scriptures can compared to the "context"

john 20:[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

was thomas calling jesus god? likely not. compared to principle scriptures noted above and context scripture i posted earlier, jesus didnt teach that he was god. thomas speach was likely amazement.

rev 22:[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

was jesus calling himself god? no, when compared to context we can conclude that this particular verse is not Jesus speaking.

what about mixed titles? both god and jesus are called "redeemer" and "savior" , well from the context we can gain a bigger picture. jesus was sent to do god's will. doing this jesus can be called those things because he was the one who died.

let the bible dictate doctrine, not your feelings.

reply to post by Neo__

Do not read too much in this personification of God. It's not literal and can confuse if read to the dead letter.

This is why the trinity needs to be rejected, because it denies the reality (or dead literal) humanness of Jesus.
The only concrete thing we have in our (Christian) religion is Jesus, because he was a real historical person. And besides that, he was a real human being, born from a woman, just like us.




[edit on 8-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Neo__

 

Do not read too much in this personification of God. It's not literal and can confuse if read to the dead letter.

This is why the trinity needs to be rejected, because it denies the reality (or dead literal) humanness of Jesus.
The only concrete thing we have in our (Christian) religion is Jesus, because he was a real historical person. And besides that, he was a real human being born from a woman, just like us.

exactly, why would god make himself born as an imperfect human? he wouldnt be a very smart god if he did

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Neo__

 

Do not read too much in this personification of God. It's not literal and can confuse if read to the dead letter.

This is why the trinity needs to be rejected, because it denies the reality (or dead literal) humanness of Jesus.
The only concrete thing we have in our (Christian) religion is Jesus, because he was a real historical person. And besides that, he was a real human being, born from a woman, just like us.




[edit on 8-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Yes ,he was born of a woman and was a real human being just like us. But he also shared all of Gods attributes unlike us,thus rendering him GOD!!!

reply to post by l neXus l

exactly, why would god make himself born as an imperfect human? he wouldnt be a very smart god if he did

Was Jesus ever tested?
Well, yes, a bunch of times.
Jesus grew in wisdom, when he was a child.
Even though he was conceived miraculously, Jesus still had to maintain a certain standard to remain in God's favor.
Then when he was accepted and declared to be the Son of God, by God, what happened immediately afterward?
He was tested.
Then when he was preparing himself to be sacrificed, what happened?
He was tested in the Garden of Gethsemane.
I would imagine God does not need to be tested like that. A man would.
We can say that because we believe in Jesus and have been baptized that we have the Holy Spirit, but if we dishonor ourselves and our God and injure the Spirit by mistreating it (grieve), we can very much have the Spirit removed from us. Hypothetically speaking, Jesus could have failed and God could have left him behind and went to find a replacement Messiah. Now that didn't happen, but if that possibility did not exist, what was the purpose of his life and everything he went through?
The idea that Jesus was born a fully reasoning god seems rather ludicrous to me and I don't think that is how it happened. Plus it destroys the whole notion that Jesus could be our example of how we can be over-comers.


[edit on 8-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by oliveoil

Yes ,he was born of a woman and was a real human being just like us. But he also shared all of Gods attributes unlike us,thus rendering him GOD!!!

I would spell that, god.
God felt that it seemed fit to fill Jesus with the fullness of godhead.
That is a far cry from the "orthodox" Trinity, but it is biblical.




[edit on 8-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Alright, kids!!! Don't make me pull this thread over!!!

Seriously, you all are doing a GREAT job of showing the rest of us what a ridiculous religion you have there! A far better job than I could ever hope to do!!! You all can't even discuss this topic amongst yourselves without it turning into a Scriptural Battle Royal!!! And you wonder why the rest of us see your book as a load of horse hockey????

Seriously, as you all have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Bible, much like the Quran, can be interpreted to say pretty much anything you want it to, or support any position you want it to. The real problem is that you all are so sure about your own positions, that you fail to see what I'm talking about. Take the blinders off and look at it with a truly open mind... Something I have yet to see any of you really do yet...

First off there is a difference between Religion and Christianity. Their religion is not my religion, and is not Christianity. I mine as well be arguing with an atheist. No, I take that back, at least atheists understand the concept of the trinity.:bnghd:

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Yes ,he was born of a woman and was a real human being just like us. But he also shared all of Gods attributes unlike us,thus rendering him GOD!!!

I would spell that, god.
God felt that it seemed fit to fill Jesus with the fullness of godhead.
That is a far cry from the "orthodox" Trinity, but it is biblical.




[edit on 8-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

No,God. There can only be one. God the father=God God the son=God God the holy Ghost=God. Only one true God.

reply to post by oliveoil
Do you understand the Trinity?
Seriously, how many years have you spent studying it and how many books have you read on the Trinity?
I think I understand the doctrine of the Trinity very well, but that does not mean I should endorse it.
Ok, so, a doctrine, like what, a church dogma, some canon of a council of bishops, like that kind of doctrine? You have a nicer version that you feel inspired to believe in and you don't need no stinking doctrine?
It's all the same, no matter how you come up with it, you diminish the real God by splitting him up, He who's very definition is unity. Everything necessary to create a universe and run it and perhaps have to save it, is all contained in God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Do you understand the Trinity?
Seriously, how many years have you spent studying it and how many books have you read on the Trinity?
I think I understand the doctrine of the Trinity very well, but that does not mean I should endorse it.
Ok, so, a doctrine, like what, a church dogma, some canon of a council of bishops, like that kind of doctrine? You have a nicer version that you feel inspired to believe in and you don't need no stinking doctrine?
It's all the same, no matter how you come up with it, you diminish the real God by splitting him up, He who's very definition is unity. Everything necessary to create a universe and run it and perhaps have to save it, is all contained in God.

With all do respect, Please explain to me what you think the Trinity doctrine IS, and what it SAYS. I think if you truly understood it, you would come to the intelligent conclusion that it indeed makes perfect sense.

the trinity is a bad topic, never should have brought it up, maybe i should make a topic called, god hates everyone except the jews and see what responses i get

Originally posted by l neXus l
the trinity is a bad topic, never should have brought it up, maybe i should make a topic called, god hates everyone except the jews and see what responses i get

Dont be silly, God loves everyone,even if they are a little slow in understanding

Originally posted by l neXus l
the trinity is a bad topic, never should have brought it up, maybe i should make a topic called, god hates everyone except the jews and see what responses i get

actually, threads like this tell us alot. it shows who are paying attention and who are sleep walking.

john 4:[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Originally posted by oliveoil
Yes ,he was born of a woman and was a real human being just like us. But he also shared all of Gods attributes unlike us,thus rendering him GOD!!!

any scriptures that can help your statement?

because you may share attributes of you mother or father, but you arent them

thats a good point, i really like to learn about what other people think so i can get a good view of the worlds standpoint, here in america we dont really get to soo much of other peoples beliefs in other countries

thats why i love ATS

Originally posted by oliveoil
No,God. There can only be one. God the father=God God the son=God God the holy Ghost=God. Only one true God.

any scriptures to back this up too?