The Trinity is not real, nor is it logical!!!!!!!!

Nexus,

I think your objection to the trinity is logical insofar as it challenges orthodox forms of Christianity. If God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are one and the same, then why would Jesus constantly refer to god as another person in the bible, right up to the last breath on the cross, "Father, why have you forsaken me" They cannot be one and the same thing, and at the same time be different people.

Your objection then why would god send himself down, die on the cross, and then complain about forsaking himself makes no sense. In that case logically god did not send himself down, he sent something other than him down. This other therefore can complain to god. They cannot be the same person.

But if the interpretation is that the spirit of god and the spirit of Jeus is the same(forming the trinity: father, son, holy spirit) then it means that they are distinct aspects, but not separate persons. This would bring it closer to Hindu like beliefs of avatars, where an avatar is the image or personification of divinity. But..... if we adopt this interpretation there is a problem. The Hindu avatars know that they are god, they do not refer to god as the "other" However, Jesus clearly is referring to god as the "other" and is complaining about being forsaken by god. In other words Jesus is clearly not god and is inferior to god. Therefore Jesus is not even an avatar of god.

So what is Jesus then? Jesus is us. He is finite and limited like we are and he has not yet realised his divinity like us, but he is certainly a more advanced soul than most of us, but not as self-realised as an avatar. Hence why he still sees god as separate.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Nexus,

I think your objection to the trinity is logical insofar as it challenges orthodox forms of Christianity. If God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are one and the same, then why would Jesus constantly refer to god as another person in the bible, right up to the last breath on the cross, "Father, why have you forsaken me" They cannot be one and the same thing, and at the same time be different people.

Your objection then why would god send himself down, die on the cross, and then complain about forsaking himself makes no sense. In that case logically god did not send himself down, he sent something other than him down. This other therefore can complain to god. They cannot be the same person.

But if the interpretation is that the spirit of god and the spirit of Jeus is the same(forming the trinity: father, son, holy spirit) then it means that they are distinct aspects, but not separate persons. This would bring it closer to Hindu like beliefs of avatars, where an avatar is the image or personification of divinity. But..... if we adopt this interpretation there is a problem. The Hindu avatars know that they are god, they do not refer to god as the "other" However, Jesus clearly is referring to god as the "other" and is complaining about being forsaken by god. In other words Jesus is clearly not god and is inferior to god. Therefore Jesus is not even an avatar of god.

So what is Jesus then? Jesus is us. He is finite and limited like we are and he has not yet realised his divinity like us, but he is certainly a more advanced soul than most of us, but not as self-realised as an avatar. Hence why he still sees god as separate.

Once again, and it seems that I have to repeat this to every single person, since nobody seems to want to read the entire thread. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between the "SON OF MAN" and the "SON OF GOD." Why must people just ignore this crucial aspect of who Jesus was and is?

I have studied the Jewish ways and thoughts my entire life, and I can tell you that this is not a foreign concept to us at all, to those who have really studied the deeper mysteries. The one who said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me" was clearly the "Son of Man."

Also, that was his way of getting people to go and look at the psalm he was quoting. Yes, he was QUOTING A PSALM there, Psalm 22. This psalm paints a vivid picture in poetic terms of a man being crucified:

Psalm 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And of course this was written hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented by the Romans.

And, if you read the rest of the Psalm 22, you will see that it also predicts that the one being crucified will be saved from utter destruction.

So, Jesus, the Son of Man, cried out the first verse of this Psalm in order to get the people to read that Psalm, and thereby realize that they were seeing before their very eyes, the fulfillment of the prophetic message contained in that Psalm... for surely David did not see those events fulfilled in his own life... he was writing that Psalm under the influence of the Spirit of Prophecy.


[edit on 5-1-2010 by downisreallyup]

Also, that was his way of getting people to go and look at the psalm he was quoting. Yes, he was QUOTING A PSALM there, Psalm 22. This psalm paints a vivid picture in poetic terms of a man being crucified:

Psalm 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

And of course this was written hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented by the Romans.

And, if you read the rest of the Psalm 22, you will see that it also predicts that the one being crucified will be saved from utter destruction.

So, Jesus, the Son of Man, cried out the first verse of this Psalm in order to get the people to read that Psalm, and thereby realize that they were seeing before their very eyes, the fulfillment of the prophetic message contained in that Psalm... for surely David did not see those events fulfilled in his own life... he was writing that Psalm under the influence of the Spirit of Prophecy.


[edit on 5-1-2010 by downisreallyup]

Sorry to disagree, but I see neither a prophecy of a crucification here, nor anything alluding to Jesus, or Jesus citing anything from Pslam 22.

Your appear to be taking words out from here that vaguely describe broken bones and piercing of hands and feet and are trying to relate them to an event that happens hundreds of years later and then declare that this IS a prophecy. Sorry this is not valid at all.

Originally posted by downisreallyup
Okay... whatever. Like I said, I have an entire paper that blows away every fallacy of the Watchtower Society. And for those who want to see it, I will send it to them.

this is exactly what im talking about.

ignore anything you cant refute and just keep on rambling.

it amazing how the part this paper that you posted that can "blow away" JW doctrine was immediately shown to be a lie. by the bible no less!

you are definitely not a lover of truth.

im not scared of what people post here because i know that god's word cannot be hindered. i know with full confidence that the truth will find its way to the top no matter how many analogies and metaphors and personal beliefs you bury it under. and i know that if a person searches for truth (honestly i mean) that they will see it.

This, by the way, is the assessment made by all of Christiandom concerning the Jehovah's Witness organization. Just the fact that their name uses the wrong pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) is proof enough that they are grossly in error. There is NO "J" sound in Hebrew, and the vowels used in that errant pronunciation come from the word Adonai and have no resemblance to how the name is actually pronounced.

the name Jehovah is simply the english translation of the name and has been in use long before Jehovah's witnesses even existed. by christendom no less.

Additionally, in the document I mentioned, I have taken their own literature that they hand out called "What Jehovah's Witnesses believe" and given solid proof against each and every point... evidence from the Bible and evidence from their own Watchtower issues.

send me a copy if you so please.

And in this paper, I provide pages of scripture proving that the New Testament presents Jesus as equal to God, containing all the fullness of God. It is irrefutable.

john 14:28 "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

refuted

next?

look look look, i am not bashing JW on this thread, my wife is a JW and i respect her right to believe that, they may be a little nuts but they have the right idea, even though they bash every other religion and tell you they are right, they are very good people who live clean lives and follow it by the bible. in their mind they are trying to save people and not be rude, so no bashing please, i dont believe it but i respect it

i merely was stating my opinion on the trinity, i dont believe in it, to me its not logical, the bible clearly defines that god and jesus are NOT the same physical person, yes they are in spirit, but god is not jesus and jesus is not GOD

reply to post by l neXus l


Hello neXus
To your previous question, I am a practicing JW...as best I can, no one is perfect, but by applying bible principles in my life I strive to follow Jesus example and look forward to His Father's Kingdome taking place on Earth as it has in Heaven, with His Son as our King Jesus (yep "a god" by some peoples termonology, not mine) in subjection to his Father directing His Earthly Kingdom to paradise and all those that allow him, perfection. (you don't have to be a member of Jehovah's Witness's to have this hope, or recieve God's blessings)
I'm totally not trying to be Troll, but have no intention of participating in the trinitarian cyclical argueing. (did I just contradict myself...uh, yep)

I wanted to coment on your marriage with a witness, that's got to be very difficult for both of you. I really think you must be neat person to come to this kind of forum with an open mind and really good questions. (perusing my other favorite topics, saw your "Is just believing in Jesus enough" thread) Why don't ya grab one of your wife's What Does the Bible Teach books and give it a readin.

i have! i have read every piece of lit that JW have, well pretty much. the BE book, reasoning, awake, watchtower, been to disctrict conventions, assemblys, etc, and i love all the information and get inspired, just hard for me to grab onto fully, ive just had bad experiences with elders, and thats turned me off completely, but i agree 95% with JW teachings, especially the trinity one, when we were out in service (yes i was an unbaptized publisher) we used to run into trinitarians all the time, to me its like, how do you not get it? lol

reply to post by l neXus l


Cool man, well, keep searching, too bad the elders left a bad taste in your mouth...everyman is imperfect...(well except for that one, that did that thing for all of us, I think you know him)

no i have not met him? can you introduce us? =P

By the way even if you are not a JW people, you should try and get your hands on their REVELATION book, it is so in depth and perfect explination of the Revelations book. with beautiful pictures and displays

reply to post by l neXus l


Greetings neXus:

To answer your thread about the Trinity, I will answer with my two cents on the subject.

First, most of us accept God and Christ as two persons. This then makes two persons of the Godhead.

Now, people question if The Holy Spirit is a person seperate pf the other two.
Please, read this piece of scripture:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". [Matt.28;19]

In this scripture it is clear that the Father. Son.and the Spirit are distinct and each one is described as a [person] in their own right.

Another text is:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". [1 John 5:7]

So. in my mind, I believe in the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Three in one Godhead.



Shalom,
Grandma

Sorry for the mess up. I'm still learning.lol

judging by your picture your LDS?

Originally posted by Grandma
Now, people question if The Holy Spirit is a person seperate pf the other two.
Please, read this piece of scripture:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". [Matt.28;19]

In this scripture it is clear that the Father. Son.and the Spirit are distinct and each one is described as a [person] in their own right.

while it does make sense, this scripture doesnt necessarily prove that the holy spirit is a person. one reason is that the scriptures never tell us what his name is.

we use this phrase in other languages too.

stop in the NAME of the law.

sins we commit in the NAME of love.

in the NAME of science.

what in heaven's NAME....

it can mean "in behalf of" or "in the spirit of"

since the holy ghost's actual "name" is never given, then likely this is how the scripture is ment

Another text is:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word [Jesus], and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". [1 John 5:7]

So. in my mind, I believe in the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Three in one Godhead.

this verse started out as a footnote in manuscripts copied several centuries after the originals. eventually it was put in.

it would be a great scripture to prove the trinity if it was real.

grandma must be LDS miriam, because she refers to the Holy Ghost and the Godhead, the holy ghost is a spirit, not a physical body of his own

if you are mormon then you know that the trinity inst real, because God and jesus appeard to joseph and God said to joseph Pointing at jesus, this is my beloved son Hear him

i think the topic of the holy spirit is abit confusing because it is sometimes personified in the bible.

but logic helps one to see that while an thing is sometimes personified, people are never itemized (is that the right word?)

so while they say things like "the holy spirits says" or "the holy spirit is grieved", it also says that people are "filled" and that holy spirit is "poured"

so its only logical to assume that the holy spirit is a force, not a person

I have posted on this subject many times. Most people believe in the trinity or the belief that Jesus is God. While I keep an open mind and pray for God to always show me the truth on this subject, ill list some scripture to show my thoughts.

Bible quote
Bread of Life
John 6 v 38-40
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus in this scripture says that God sent him, not only that Jesus plain an simply says that he didn't come to do HIS WILL BUT THE WILL OF GOD. Jesus continues to call God his Own father. IF Jesus is God, Jesus would never have said this.

Continue to v 43

Bible quote
Bread of Life
John 6 vs 43-44
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again why is Jesus speaking this scripture unless Jesus is really The son of God. God draws the Chosen one not Jesus.

Bible quote
The Baptism and Temptation of Jesus
Mark 1 v 9-13
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
12At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

Here is one of the the beggiest and unrefutable clues that the trinity is a lie, and that Jesus is not God. But the son of God. Not only out of GOD'S OWN MOUTH DOES HE SAY

You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased

Jesus then also recievies God's spirit. Now come on if Jesus is God, Jesus doesn't need God' spirit. Lets keep this in mind if you believe in trinity, then you go against what God said himself.

Bible quote
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
John 3 v 16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I believe its quit clear that God gave up his only begotten son. God sent Jesus to us. Jesus did not send himself.

I cant find the scipture righ now. but cents we're all bible thumpers ill just hope that someone might find it for me.

One of the disciples ask Jesus when would be Jesus next coming. Jesus said that no man nor son of man (Jesus) knows the timing of Jesus's own coming. Jesus said quit plain that only God knew. Showing that Jesus is not God, because Jesus would of known.

next

Jesus prays and talks to God

bible quote
Jesus Prays in a Solitary Place
Mark 1 v 35
35Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.

bible quote
Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
Luke 22 v
39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

bible quote
Jesus Prays for Himself
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
Jesus Prays for All Believers
John 17 v 1-26
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

OK come on, how the hell can you believe in trinity when Jesus talks to God, Jesus woships, Jesus even feels forsaken by God. Who the hell is Jesus talking to himself??? No!!! Jesus was talking to God, asking for God's help and guidness. If Jesus was God Jesus would not talk to God or show God worship.

My last scripture I put is Jesus's death

bible quote
Jesus' Death
Luke 23 v 46
46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Who's spirit went to God??? Jesus thats whoo. Jesus i the Son of God.

bible quote
The Death of Jesus
Matthew 27 v 46
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Here Jesus calls God his own father, his own God, he then feels foraken by God. Jesus is again the son of God.

Conclusion
Jesus is like the perfect manifestation of God. Jesus is devine But Jesus is God's only true son. Like a black man has black babys. Jesus has God blood in him, God's own genetics are in Jesus, makin him more like God, not only that Jesus has God's spirit in him, making Jesus holy one with God, Jesus has all power in heaven given by God. Therefor Jesus is like a God, but Jesus is God's perfect Son. Jesus and God are different being, with seprate lives. But in spirit and mind are one.

JESUS IS GOD'S SON, SPOKEN FROM GOD, SPOKEN FROM JESUS.

God Bless and go in his spirit.

[edit on 5-1-2010 by slymattb]

reply to post by slymattb


Jesus and God are two different personalities existing in the same being. Therefore the Godhead has 3 different personalities existing together in one living being. It really is not that hard to understand once you do a lot of research.



Shalom,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


So what you are saying is that God is suffering from Dissociative Identity Disorder???? This would make the Almighty clinically insane! Wait... this would explain much of the Old Testament...