The Trinity is not real, nor is it logical!!!!!!!!

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


You make sure you tell Him that little tidbit when you SEE him, O.K.?



Shalom,
Grandma

Okay I promised I would be more excepting of other peoples beliefs for my New Years resolution, even if they are taking the Holy Bible and perversely twisting every word said.

Lets clear this up now.

In John 20:28 The apostle Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God.

Now here you see an Apostle calling Jesus God.If anyone,Surly doubting Thomas would see the truth. How can this be twisted? How?

reply to post by oliveoil


Not nit-picking... really! BUT... I would be interested to see if the original text in it's original language can be interpretted differently... Not saying that it can, but let's be honest, it was most definitely NOT written in English!

reply to post by JaxonRoberts
[more

The third person of the divine Trinity is variously named "the Holy Spirit, "the Spirit of God", "the Spirit"., when reference has been made to God "his spirit", and when God speaks "my spirit". His being designated Spirit is for the purpose, doubtless, of representing the Trinity.

As the Son is called the Word because he is the revealer of God, so the third person in the Godhead is called Spirit because he is the one who especially the power or worker in the Godhead in effecting men's redemption. Christ atones for sin, but the Spirit convects, regenerates, witnesses, and teaches.

A person is a being possessed of intelligence, will,and individual existence who can say "I", "thou", "he", "me", "mine". The Holy Spirit may be said to be a person of his possessing these characteristics.

Throughout the Scriptures the Holy Spirit has been made reference to all of the above.

Jesus was with God when he created the universe and Adam. Nothing was created unless done by Christ. Christ and God were together from the very beginning, but so was God's Spirit. Here is where the Trinity comes to be. God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons together in one spiritual being.


Shalom,
Grandma

Originally posted by oliveoil
In John 20:28 The apostle Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God.

Now here you see an Apostle calling Jesus God.If anyone,Surly doubting Thomas would see the truth. How can this be twisted? How?

Lets get the scripture

bible quote
Jesus Appears to Thomas
John 20 v 28
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Its a matter of opinion on what you think this means. Thomas easy could of ment My lord (Jesus Christ) and my God (the father). Thomas could of reconised both of the two.

And if you think Im confusing scripture fight my last post. Jesus says he the son of God. All disciples say it. God says it. I used scripture to prove all my points.

Originally posted by Grandma
Jesus and God are two different personalities existing in the same being. Therefore the Godhead has 3 different personalities existing together in one living being. It really is not that hard to understand once you do a lot of research.

but we arent just talking about distinct personalities are we? one is obviously serving the other.

"not my will but the will of him who sent me"

"the father is greater than i"

"why do you call me good, noone is good except the father"

jesus loyally submitted to his father, prayed for guidance, and deferred glory to him

this isnt the same person.

enter this evidence to any court and they would agree

Originally posted by oliveoil
Lets clear this up now.

yes, lets throw out all the scriptures so far that disprove the trinity and examine yours without context

In John 20:28 The apostle Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God.

Now here you see an Apostle calling Jesus God.If anyone,Surly doubting Thomas would see the truth. How can this be twisted? How?

its not twisting the scriptures. it figuring out what they are saying, letting the bible speak for itself instead of fitting it to your doctrine.

since a huge body of scriptures have been provided as context that Lord Jesus is NOT in fact almighty god. we can safely assume that thomas is no advocating the deification of Jesus.

what could he have ment?

the first is surprise. same way one says "oh my god!" or "joseph mary jesus!" when something big happens. the clue to this is that we have 2 definite articles in the original greek. he literally says "my the lord, my the god" doesnt make sence in english but in greek it does. if jesus and god were the same person, why would thomas use 2? normally in greek, he would use one. "my the lord and god"

the other is that thomas was in fact calling jesus god. the word god does not automatically mean the almighty. nor does it always mean a false god. remember GOD told moses that he would make him "god to phaqroah". God also called those who judged israel "gods". in daniel, jesus had the title of "mighty god" (not to be confused with almighty). Jesus was a god. calling him one doesnt not automatically mean worship

im so confused, who here actually believes in the trinity and who doesnt?







[edit on 6-1-2010 by l neXus l]

reply to post by downisreallyup
Let's make a comparison, between the supplication for action on the part of God; against the fulfilment, meaning Jesus taking action on behalf of God (1. in or on behalf of, as a representative of or a proxy for: On behalf of my colleagues, I address you tonight.) on behalf of us (2. in or on [someone's] behalf, in the interest or aid of [someone]: He interceded in my behalf.).

Isaiah 64
If only you would tear apart the sky and come down!
The mountains would tremble before you!

As when fire ignites dry wood,
or fire makes water boil,
let your adversaries know who you are,
and may the nations shake at your presence!

When you performed awesome deeds that took us by surprise,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.

Since ancient times no one has heard or perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who intervenes for those who wait for him.

You assist those who delight in doing what is right,
who observe your commandments.
Look, you were angry because we violated them continually.
How then can we be saved?

We are all like one who is unclean,
all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight.
We all wither like a leaf;
our sins carry us away like the wind.

No one invokes your name,
or makes an effort to take hold of you.
For you have rejected us
and handed us over to our own sins.

Yet, Lord, you are our father.
We are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the product of your labor.

Lord, do not be too angry!
Do not hold our sins against us continually!
Take a good look at your people, at all of us!

Your chosen cities have become a desert;
Zion has become a desert,
Jerusalem is a desolate ruin.

Our holy temple, our pride and joy,
the place where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned with fire;
all our prized possessions have been destroyed.

In light of all this, how can you still hold back, Lord?
How can you be silent and continue to humiliate us?

The explanation from Jesus to Nicodemus.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Later he was addressing the crowd and telling them that he was the bread from heaven. They said, We know your parents, so how can you claim that you came from heaven? He said, How about in the Bible where it says, God will teach you Himself?
Afterwards, the disciples were complaining about these difficult sayings and Jesus said, What if later you see me ascending to where I was previously?
Did Jesus physically go different places? He said, These are things spiritual in nature that do not wear off their effectiveness.
Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and even Isaiah and Ezekiel, were all thought at that time to have gone to heaven. Jesus was saying pretty much, Well be that as it may, those were all mere mortals and even if they were in heaven, it has no real affect on your life. I, on the other hand, started out being something more than mortal, so when I go to heaven, it will be something meaningful because I am the Son of Man that was seen in vision by Daniel.
So what does any of this have to do with the trinity? In my quote from Isaiah, The Lord, otherwise known as YHWH, was spoken of as the father of Israel. That may be, since he was the angel sent by God to guide Israel up out of Egypt. From our perspective he would be a father figure but from the viewpoint of heaven, he would have been the Son of God. Angel,. . .→son of god,. . .how does one do that? Can it also go,. . .son of god,. . .→angel? How about, man,. . .→son of god? Impossible? Not with God. What does God have to do to make something so? Speak the word. God says, This is my son, and he is. No messing around with this and that, just he is because God says he is. If Jesus is Son of God, then who is not? YHWH, he would loose his status of our god, replaced by Jesus, who is so humble, being in the form of a man, to acknowledge that, in fact, as great and wonderful as he may seem, "There is a Father, and I hope you all are grown up enough to accept that. That no matter what you see, there is more you can not see, such as who nobody other than myself has seen, the true God who is always god because he has all that is required to make other gods inside Him. And there is a Holy Spirit which is everywhere as a hidden divine presence."
Back to what I meant in my last post; what stepped down, or descended? Jesus, or the title, Son of God? YHWH stepped down, the title descended. The point being, when he goes up, it will have a lot more serious consequence to us than whatever prophets may have gone up previously.

Reference Note:

Jesus here contrasts himself, the "Son of Man", with other human figures who allegedly entered heaven, such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses,Isaiah, and Ezekiel. An entire cottage industry of Second Temple literature revolved around such figures and their heavenly exploits. Although believers will join Christ in heaven in the future,only Jesus both descended from heaven and ascended back up to heaven;. . .

Commentaery on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament,


[edit on 6-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

jim are you a bible scholar?

reply to post by slymattb


Hi Sly,

And if you think Im confusing scripture fight my last post. Jesus says he the son of God. All disciples say it. God says it. I used scripture to prove all my points.

Jesus was the son of God by eternal right of inheritance(Col 1:15)
We his disciples are the sons of God only by adoption.(Romans 8:14)
Jesus is of God ,we are only From God.

Originally posted by oliveoil
[Jesus was the son of God by eternal right of inheritance(Col 1:15)
We his disciples are the sons of God only by adoption.(Romans 8:14)
Jesus is of God ,we are only From God.

I agree with everthing you said. But none of that proves Jesus is God, or the trinity. By God's own words Jesus is the Son of God, coming in power. But if you believe in Jesus is God, you go against what God said himself. Jesus is the Son of God.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by slymattb]

reply to post by l neXus l


The "Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, is the spirit of the Father. It is seperate of the Father and therefore a enity of the Trinity, God the Father, Christ the Son [Word], and the Holy Spirit.


Oh, by the way it was not very nice of you to say I was on '___'. I do forgive you, however misguided your statement was.



Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by l neXus l

 

The "Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, is the spirit of the Father. It is seperate of the Father and therefore a enity of the Trinity, God the Father, Christ the Son [Word], and the Holy Spirit.


Oh, by the way it was not very nice of you to say I was on '___'. I do forgive you, however misguided your statement was.



Peace,
Grandma

OMGosh LOL i didnt say you were on '___' i said i thought you were LDS (Latter Day Saint)

reply to post by l neXus l


I do not belong to any denomination. I have been a Christian over 39 years.
I have a very close, personal commune with the Father everyday. The Holy Spirit has helped with teaching me and giving me enlightenment.


I'm sorry I misread what you wrote, please forgive me for coming back at you the way I did.

Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by slymattb

Originally posted by oliveoil
[Jesus was the son of God by eternal right of inheritance(Col 1:15)
We his disciples are the sons of God only by adoption.(Romans 8:14)
Jesus is of God ,we are only From God.

I agree with everthing you said. But none of that proves Jesus is God, or the trinity. By God's own words Jesus is the Son of God, coming in power. But if you believe in Jesus is God, you go against what God said himself. Jesus is the Son of God.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by slymattb]

Go back and re read Isaiah 7:14, 9:16, John 1:1,14; 20:28, Romans 9:5
,Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8 and 2 Peter 1:1John 8:24 ,John 8:58 ,John 18:4-6
Revelation 1:17,18 ,Revelation 2:8 ,Revelation 22:12-16 Then ask what God are they speaking off. Then read I Corinthians 8:6.
I can also point out all the same attributes That God and Jesus share, such as they are both referred to Lord, Saviour, Creator ,Giver of Life, Omnipresent ,Omniscient ,Omnipotent ,Eternal ect ect... its amazing that people can read the bible and not figure this out.

no problem, i freely forgive

you sound like a wonderful individual who has a close relationship with god

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by l neXus l

 

I do not belong to any denomination. I have been a Christian over 39 years.
I have a very close, personal commune with the Father everyday. The Holy Spirit has helped with teaching me and giving me enlightenment.


I'm sorry I misread what you wrote, please forgive me for coming back at you the way I did.

Peace,
Grandma

Although I disagree with your very imaginative offspring, I do agree with you on many things that are truth.

who is her offspring?

reply to post by miriam0566

the other is that thomas was in fact calling jesus god. the word god does not automatically mean the almighty. nor does it always mean a false god. remember GO

Yes he was calling Jesus God, and for him to use the word god and not mean God would be blasphemous big time.
Now, just to go back a sec on your analysis of John 1:1
You are only partially correct. The truth is not all Bibles don't use the definite article, some do. However, this really doesn't matter if John used it or not Jesus is God and Heb 1:8 clears this up. Unless you can twist that too.
Also if you really want to get into it, I can prove why your "OLD IS BEST" theory on the Comma doesn't hold water thus wrapping up this thread as to the Trinity being 100 truth.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by oliveoil]