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The Trinity is not real, nor is it logical!!!!!!!!

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posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


can you think of any other scriptures where jesus claims to be god?

Come on now I'm a lot smarter than this. You know just as much as I that if Jesus were to come right out from the get go and declare he was God he would have been killed right their.
He declared he was God though his miracles although Some of the things he said and the things that were said of him certainly alluded to the fact he was indeed God, he didnt come right out and say I AM GOD.(I know I ramble. I am sick with flu)
Haven't we already been down this road?




posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by miriam0566
 


can you think of any other scriptures where jesus claims to be god?

Come on now I'm a lot smarter than this. You know just as much as I that if Jesus were to come right out from the get go and declare he was God he would have been killed right their.
He declared he was God though his miracles although Some of the things he said and the things that were said of him certainly alluded to the fact he was indeed God,


thats a good point. how did jesus perform miracles?

acts 2:[22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

acts 10:[37] That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
[38] How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

john 5:[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

jesus wasnt able to perform miracles because he was god. he was able to perform miracles because god gave him that power and authority.

the apostles too healed people and expelled demons. they even resurrected some people. does that mean they were god too?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by miriam0566
 


can you think of any other scriptures where jesus claims to be god?

Come on now I'm a lot smarter than this. You know just as much as I that if Jesus were to come right out from the get go and declare he was God he would have been killed right their.
He declared he was God though his miracles although Some of the things he said and the things that were said of him certainly alluded to the fact he was indeed God,


thats a good point. how did jesus perform miracles?

acts 2:[22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

acts 10:[37] That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
[38] How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

john 5:[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

jesus wasnt able to perform miracles because he was god. he was able to perform miracles because god gave him that power and authority.

the apostles too healed people and expelled demons. they even resurrected some people. does that mean they were god too?


okay here's another one, please with all your infinite knowledge explain this

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Go ahead smarty pants.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


i have explained this scripture many many times.

the simplified explaination is that it is a mistranslation.

koine greek does not have an indefinate article. so they leave it blank. we know this because of the definate article "ton"

the transliteration of the manuscript is "the word was with THE god and the word was A god."

but put grammar aside for a moment and just look at the context of the verse itself.

"the word was with god and the word was god."

does that make much sense to you?

why would john tell us that jesus was with god and then contradict himself and say he was god?

if jesus was god, why not just leave it at that? why add the confusing and untrue statement that jesus was with god.

if i said i was with miriam and then directly after said that i was miriam, you would look at me crosseyed.

all this coupled with the scriptures make it clear. jesus is not god.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



i have explained this scripture many many times.

the simplified explaination is that it is a mistranslation.

koine greek does not have an indefinate article. so they leave it blank. we know this because of the definate article "ton"

the transliteration of the manuscript is "the word was with THE god and the word was A god."

but put grammar aside for a moment and just look at the context of the verse itself.

"the word was with god and the word was god."

does that make much sense to you?

why would john tell us that jesus was with god and then contradict himself and say he was god?

if jesus was god, why not just leave it at that? why add the confusing and untrue statement that jesus was with god.

if i said i was with miriam and then directly after said that i was miriam, you would look at me crosseyed.

all this coupled with the scriptures make it clear. jesus is not god.


The only so called Bible that says the word was a God is the NWT. And the transliteration used is wrong. Why, because this would indicate that there are two true Gods. Tell me this, why out of all the critical text versions like the ASV and the NIV say that the word was with God. Why do all Bibles say this, All except the NWT. why is this?. Is the NWT the only correct Bible their is?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by downisreallyup
 



The soul and spirit are NOT the same thing, as some who are unlearned assume.
Please expand on your theory of what a spirit and what a soul are.


Well, the Bible makes it clear that they are not the same, as evidenced in the following verse from Hebrews 4:12:


Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Obviously if the soul and spirit can be "divided asunder" they are not the same thing. According to the words, both in Hebrew and Greek, you have two concepts:

SOUL = NEPHESH (Heb.) = PSYCHE (Greek) = Mind/Will/Emotions
SPIRIT = RUACH (Heb.) = PNEUMA (Greek) = Wind/Force

For the soul you have the mind, being made up of conceptual connections, perceptual memories, emotional responses, and logical choices. I believe that the brain is the mechanism which serves to build the soul and enables it to interact with the physical body and the spiritual "body."

For the spirit you have the actual life force, that which causes the physical to be animated and the soul to grow. The spirit is what causes the biological mechanisms to operate. What directs the DNA replication process? What directs the stem cell specialization? What is the strong and weak force, really? I believe these are all features of the Spirit of God, and our own spirits, intermingled in a unseen spiritual world.

Because the spirit is an extension of the soul, the spirit is also intelligent. Because the soul is an extension of the spirit, the soul is also forceful and can direct creation. This is also why the body can operate intelligently and forcefully.

I believe that before the beginning there was only the Father, existing in an infinite state of absolute potential. He (I used the term loosely) has no form or boundary, for He is an absolute UNITY containing the potential for everything that is finite. He IS the definition of infinity and everything else is finite.

I believe that both the Spirit of God and the Son of God refer to God's manifestation in this finite universe, for how else can an infinite being interact with a finite creation? For the Father, there is no time, no movement, no progression... there simply IS and an infinite potential of "WHAT CAN BE." For what is movement but a finite entity going from somewhere that it was to somewhere that it isn't? Everything that we associate with the physical or spiritual universe is finite, since everything has limits and boundaries.

Through God's Spirit, the Father is able to permeate all of creation, and to affect that creation at the smallest level. So, at its root, the Spirit reaches down to the sub-quantum, interacting at the most basic level.

Through God's Son, the Father is able to interact with creation as the highest "created" level, at the level of self-aware conscious being.

So, the Spirit is the simplest finiteness, having only the attribute of pressure or power, but no attributes of location, shape or form.

The Son, through whom all things were made, is the most complex finiteness, having all the fullest attributes of physical complexity, mental understanding, and spiritual power... for as he said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

People fail to comprehend the majesty of the tri-unity of God, because they fail to understand the very nature of existence itself, and that is that it is not a duality, but rather it is a tri-unity of potential, power, and limitation.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
If you happen to look at rev22:20

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

who is coming God of Jesus. this proves you are soooo wrong.


yes, jesus is coming. however you are leaving out context

[6] And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
[7] Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

here GOD (Jehovah) says that he is coming too to give to each person thier reward. verse 14 holds the key of who is talking.

[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

who's commandments? the original greek renders that "washing thier robes"

rev 7:14 refers to those who survive the tribulation, "washing thier robes" in the blood of the lamb. these are servents of christ as king who put faith in the ransom sacrifice.

verse 14 is talking about jesus in the third person.

it CANT be jesus speaking.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by miriam0566]

[edit on 3-1-2010 by miriam0566]


I'm sorry but you are greatly mistaken here. First of all, there is no place in creation that God does not exist by way of His Holy Spirit. It is by Him that all things hold together, so there is no such thing as God coming to that which He already permeates. Your concept of God as a being who can come and go is just not tenable, since God, in his fullest sense, if infinite, and by definition unable to not be everywhere. God the Father is not a guy with a big beard sitting on a throne... that is the Son who sits on a throne.

That is the purpose of the Son of God... the Son is not infinite, but is the fullest expression of God's finiteness. So, in the Son, there is form, shape, personality, expression, and LOCATION. The Son is that aspect of God that IS ABLE to come and go, which is a feature of finiteness. The paradox of infinite completeness is that it must also include finite incompleteness in order to be complete. The Father needs the Son in order to be complete.

Look at my post above where I quote from Isaiah. You will see that the Son is being sent by the Father. The Son is the one who CAN be sent, for it is impossible for the Father to be sent, since that would then make the Father finite, making him less than God.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by miriam0566
 


can you think of any other scriptures where jesus claims to be god?

Come on now I'm a lot smarter than this. You know just as much as I that if Jesus were to come right out from the get go and declare he was God he would have been killed right their.
He declared he was God though his miracles although Some of the things he said and the things that were said of him certainly alluded to the fact he was indeed God, he didnt come right out and say I AM GOD.(I know I ramble. I am sick with flu)
Haven't we already been down this road?


This comes pretty close:


John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by miriam0566
 



i have explained this scripture many many times.

the simplified explaination is that it is a mistranslation.

koine greek does not have an indefinate article. so they leave it blank. we know this because of the definate article "ton"

the transliteration of the manuscript is "the word was with THE god and the word was A god."

but put grammar aside for a moment and just look at the context of the verse itself.

"the word was with god and the word was god."

does that make much sense to you?

why would john tell us that jesus was with god and then contradict himself and say he was god?

if jesus was god, why not just leave it at that? why add the confusing and untrue statement that jesus was with god.

if i said i was with miriam and then directly after said that i was miriam, you would look at me crosseyed.

all this coupled with the scriptures make it clear. jesus is not god.


The only so called Bible that says the word was a God is the NWT. And the transliteration used is wrong. Why, because this would indicate that there are two true Gods. Tell me this, why out of all the critical text versions like the ASV and the NIV say that the word was with God. Why do all Bibles say this, All except the NWT. why is this?. Is the NWT the only correct Bible their is?


You are correct, the NWT is a corrupted text produced by a well-recognized cult organization.

Here are some verses:


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.



Mat. 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



Mat. 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.


Jesus accepted worship, which is not something that a non-God person would do, unless he truly was a blasphemer.

We must not forget that Jesus was not only the Son of God, but he was also the Son of Man, and this is something that is not talked about much. There is a big difference between the Son of God and the Son of Man.


Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


If you misunderstand the previous verses, you will totally misunderstand why Jesus came to earth and who he truly was.

You all can trifle about the particulars of John 1:1, when it all becomes clear in the next verses:


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM! And in case you didn't get that, it repeats it in another way:

WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

So, twice it asserts that the Son is the one who MADE all things. Now, since we see two accounts in Genesis, one that uses the word CREATION, and the other that uses the term MADE/FORMED, we can now gain an understanding. God the Father creates all things, that is, he designed them and came up with the plans/architecture for everything. This happened in the infinite mind of the Father.

Then, the Son (as part of the YHVH) brought them into being by forming/making all things. This is what is mentioned in Genesis 2:4-9, where it says it was the "Lord GOD" that did all this forming/making. In Genesis 1, it is simply God (Elohim) that created (designed) everything, and if you look into the Hebrew of Genesis 1, you will see that it was only the SOULS (Nephesh) of the creatures that were created, not the bodies.

The bodies were FORMED from the dust of the earth during the "generations" that followed the creation.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:36 PM
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I so enjoy these types of debates, especially this subject. The same two opposing veiwpoints...one, uses all the scriptures to allow the bible to speak for itself, and the other side; that may use one or two scriptures along with many analogies and metaphors to help a person come to some kind of understanding that if they just try really hard they should be able to understand it with enough faith. I have faith, but I base it on the word of God, not the sayings of men. But I very much respect those who have the talent to read God's word and not have to make it fit their own beliefs, but can read it and let it shape their faith.
I know this post is not contributing, but I've been doing to much reading and no writin...



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by downisreallyup
 
It does not say the Son made all things.
The word, this unusual power to do tremendous things by speaking, was with God and while being with God, this fantastic force thing was god. Now this same fantastic thing that we can call a Him, has come among us humans, so that this Him, being with flesh, has become flesh, just as it was god when it was with God. Now this particular person of flesh, who is one with this Him, is someone we have witnessed and we have witnessed the glory of this Him, which is the glory comparable to what would be expected of one who is the very only-begotten of God.

Anyway, just looking at the Greek from these verses, that's how it reads to me.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by downisreallyup
 
It does not say the Son made all things.
The word, this unusual power to do tremendous things by speaking, was with God and while being with God, this fantastic force thing was god. Now this same fantastic thing that we can call a Him, has come among us humans, so that this Him, being with flesh, has become flesh, just as it was god when it was with God. Now this particular person of flesh, who is one with this Him, is someone we have witnessed and we have witnessed the glory of this Him, which is the glory comparable to what would be expected of one who is the very only-begotten of God.

Anyway, just looking at the Greek from these verses, that's how it reads to me.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by jmdewey60]


Well, I assumed that your would use a little reason and see that:

1) The Word MADE all things
2) The Word became flesh (Son of Man) dwelt among us
3) Jesus (Son of God) became flesh (Son of Man)
4) The Word is the Son

Please, do not confuse the words CREATED and MADE. They are not the same thing, and the first two chapters of Genesis make this clear. The Father (infinite) created, the Son (beginning of finite) Made... pretty basic really.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
The only so called Bible that says the word was a God is the NWT..... Tell me this, why out of all the critical text versions like the ASV and the NIV say that the word was with God. Why do all Bibles say this, All except the NWT. why is this?. Is the NWT the only correct Bible their is?


1808 “and the Word was a god” - The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864 “and a god was the Word” - The Emphatic Diaglott (J21,interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935 “and the Word was divine” - The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1955 “so the Word was divine” - The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos" - Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

no, the NWT is not the only version to render it correctly


And the transliteration used is wrong.


no, its not. ask a person who is greek orthodox who speaks greek fluently. they dont use john 1:1 to support thier views (and they are trinitarians.)


Why, because this would indicate that there are two true Gods.


no. not "true god" god. the passage doesnt say "and the word was the true god". if it did we would not be debating this. you would have won.

it says "god"

theos (θεός) literally means "mighty one"

satan is called a god too. did you know that?

2 cor 4:[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

would GOD (the father) blind unbelievers so that they cant be saved? never!

satan is the "god of this world".

if satan is called a god, why can jesus? is not jesus more powerful than the rest of creation? isnt he more powerful than satan?

"and the word was a god" makes perfect sense.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by downisreallyup
I'm sorry but you are greatly mistaken here. First of all, there is no place in creation that God does not exist by way of His Holy Spirit. It is by Him that all things hold together, so there is no such thing as God coming to that which He already permeates. Your concept of God as a being who can come and go is just not tenable, since God, in his fullest sense, if infinite, and by definition unable to not be everywhere. God the Father is not a guy with a big beard sitting on a throne... that is the Son who sits on a throne.


you have a very strong sense of the spiritual, but your reaction is strangly phyisical.

GOD "coming" is not a literal thing. you are right, GOD can reach anywhere with his holy spirit.

rather "coming" is the act of turning attention to something.

exodus 19:[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

of course GOD didnt move. but he was turning his attention to Isreal in a very real and visual way.

Zech 2:[10] Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

this doesnt mean that GOD will literally get up and reside on earth.

rev 21:[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by downisreallyup
This comes pretty close:


John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


not at all close.

koine greek expresses the present perfect tense as present simple. this is because the koine present perfect denotes an action that finishes in the past (past perfect in english)

literally the verse reads "before abraham was, I have been

but again, grammar aside, how the most common word in any language is percieved as a quote is beyond me. especialy since on the hebrew side "i am that I am" is a horrible translation.

jesus being the "beginning of all creation" and the "firstborn of all creation" means that he would have been alive before abraham. the verse does nothing to prove jesus was god.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:07 AM
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GOD is GOD not JESUS, NOT the HOly Spirit



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by downisreallyup
Here are some verses:


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


so "I am in the Father, and the Father in me" means "i am the father?"

so when jesus says "[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

so by your logic, jesus, GOD and us are all the same person.

interesting



Mat. 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


all this scripture proves is that jesus was GOD's son. not GOD.



Mat. 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.


Jesus accepted worship, which is not something that a non-God person would do, unless he truly was a blasphemer.


προσκυνέω (proskuneó) literally means "to do reverence to"

this can be rendered "worship" but it can also be rendered "to prostrate before".

"prostrating" oneself in front of someone was to show deep respect to that person.

does this mean that jesus was accepting worship? no. although the word can and is rendered that way sometimes, it can also be taken as showing a deep respect for jesus.


We must not forget that Jesus was not only the Son of God, but he was also the Son of Man, and this is something that is not talked about much. There is a big difference between the Son of God and the Son of Man.


funny you should bring this up.

num 23:[19] God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

so jesus is god and jesus is a "son of man" but god is not?



Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


worst translation in biblical history

the correct translation is

"regarded seizing equality with god robbery."

some render it differently

New International Version (©1984)
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,


7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


obediant to who? who does god answer to?? jesus' "obedience" proves he is not god.


9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


sometimes i wonder if trinitarians even read the scriptures they post.

"to the glory of God the Father"... everything jesus did was to his father's glory, NOT his. this verse does not even make sense if you make Jesus GOD.


You all can trifle about the particulars of John 1:1, when it all becomes clear in the next verses:


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM! And in case you didn't get that, it repeats it in another way:

WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

So, twice it asserts that the Son is the one who MADE all things. Now, since we see two accounts in Genesis, one that uses the word CREATION, and the other that uses the term MADE/FORMED, we can now gain an understanding. God the Father creates all things, that is, he designed them and came up with the plans/architecture for everything. This happened in the infinite mind of the Father.

Then, the Son (as part of the YHVH) brought them into being by forming/making all things. This is what is mentioned in Genesis 2:4-9, where it says it was the "Lord GOD" that did all this forming/making. In Genesis 1, it is simply God (Elohim) that created (designed) everything, and if you look into the Hebrew of Genesis 1, you will see that it was only the SOULS (Nephesh) of the creatures that were created, not the bodies.

The bodies were FORMED from the dust of the earth during the "generations" that followed the creation.


col 1:[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

note: "image". doesnt say he is god, he is the image of god. same way my avatar isnt me, it represents me. also note: "firstborn of all creation." even if "firstborn means "important" and not literally "firstborn", jesus is still classed with creation. he himself is a creation.

GOD is NOT created.

[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

your right, GOD designed all things. but then GOD created all thing BY (through in some bibles) jesus. proverbs calls jesus god's master worker. but it doesnt mean that jesus is GOD

[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

or, "and through him all things exist"

GOD created jesus. GOD uses jesus to create everything else including us.

Jesus is GOD's son. his beloved. the only son directly created by him. the oldest creation, exhalted above the rest of creation.

the picture alittle more clear?

[edit on 4-1-2010 by miriam0566]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by downisreallyup
 


reply to post by downisreallyup
 


I really would like to discuss your theory on spirit and soul However, I'm going away and wont be back till Wednesday. I do have a two quick questions for you to consider while I'm away. If the body consists of matter where does this leave the spirit and the soul. Wouldn't they both be matter less ? And as far as Heb. 4:12 ,wouldn't it be correct to say that the word of God is so powerful it can divide the spirit and soul, Just like as if someone said that Superman was so strong he could bend steel? Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



so by your logic, jesus, GOD and us are all the same person.

As far as all of us being of spirit Yes. However God is infinite we are finite and Jesus was both. Didn't you read my post a few pages back.? When it comes to the Bible you must know theory and truths or you will be lost.

ps and stop denoting Jesus with a lowercase letter (lol)

[edit on 4-1-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
As far as all of us being of spirit Yes.


since your "spirit" disagrees with the scriptures, you'll have to forgive me for not wanting any


ps and stop denoting Jesus with a lowercase letter (lol)


then stop reducing him to a blasphemer by calling him god.



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