What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

reply to post by OldThinker



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3 We send our children to school to get an education (there seems to be varying opinions of how this is defined) "not to learn someone else s moral values" although being aware of others moral values has its' merits.
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Glad you acknowledge....you seem to be contradicting yourself here??

No I'm not contradicting myself OT, it's perfectly fine to be aware of other' moral values by this we can compare our own (if we're smart).

If my children go to school and pray to the abrahamic god, the mere act is an acceptance of - A this entity is real B It's moral values .

cant finish this post PC acting up

I would like to know exactly how this lack of prayer or a moment of silence affects childrens behaviour for the worst.

Do you think there is possibly something else at work here?

If indeed this moment of silence or prayer makes kids behave then it is a miracle and we should all go for it.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Look @ the native American populace, the ppl they overthrew..
and forced christianity on, and killed tens of thousands of them.

Remember these founding fathers were pretty elderly...or even long dead when those things happened...


That said, certainly bad things happened....they have been given alot since right?

That said Jesus Christ had nothing to do with murdering tribes....


We'll pick it up tomorrow....real late here....thank you for posting here

Hate to tell you but all the Founding Fathers fought, killed, and displaced Native Americans throughout their entire lives. One of the primary reasons for the American Revolution that is seldom acknowledged is that the British government had this odd idea of respecting the treaties they made with the tribes and tried to control the expansion of the colonies westward. The Americans felt very chafed by this, as they claimed a "God-given right" to expansion and converting the heathens. Haven't you ever heard of Manifest Destiny?

So while Jesus the dude didn't personally exterminate Native Americans a few million of his ardent follwers did so in his name, so the responsibility falls on him and his paranoid schizophrenic father...

A simple moment of silence I can deal with, but one that serves as a wedge to introduce religion is wrong. So shelve the idea, if a kid needs a moment of silence, let him or her take one, no need for group participation.

And for all you trying to correlate ending school prayer with the collapse of society and morality, allow me to point out that during the time it was prevalent, lynchings, child beatings, wife beatings, and general mistreatment of minorities was accepted as the norm. So I could make a much stronger case that ending school prayer made a far better world than existed before. I would be just as wrong as you, though, in making that claim, as in both cases it is still merely one factor out of many in an extremely complex dynamic.

It's wrong because it's a public place owned by the state forcing a certain viewpoint onto the other.

Let me put it to you like this. Recently a student got in trouble because she couldn't say Jesus at her graduation speech. that's wrong because it is the state forcing atheistic views upon the student. This is no different. it is forcing religious views on others.

In the US, there is a "wall of separation" between the state and the personal viewpoints of the individual. The state has no right to tell you to do something if it is forcing a religious viewpoint on to you. Meanwhile, the graduate has the right to say her praise to Jesus because she is an individual and it is her right, reserved by the federal government, to express her views, even if it is within a public institution.

So in this way, if students want to pray in school, they can. But the state cannot tell kids they must pray or even remain silent.

What's wrong with a moment of silence in public schools? Let's be totally honest and just admit it's a way to insert prayer into public classes. Any kid can pray any time in any school. SILENTLY. Let's ask it this way....why DICTATE a moment of silence in public schools?

Originally posted by OhZone
I would like to know exactly how this lack of prayer or a moment of silence affects childrens behaviour for the worst.

Do you think there is possibly something else at work here?

If indeed this moment of silence or prayer makes kids behave then it is a miracle and we should all go for it.

Did you review the stats I provided? Are you ignoring them? What else could be at work?

Prayer definitely helped my many many kids BEHAVE correctly....OT's going for it!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Gorman91
It's wrong because it's a public place owned by the state forcing a certain viewpoint onto the other.

Explain to me how enacting a moment of silence is forcing anyone to do anything....other than being QUIET for a moment?

OT

Originally posted by Gorman91
Let me put it to you like this. Recently a student got in trouble because she couldn't say Jesus at her graduation speech. that's wrong because it is the state forcing atheistic views upon the student. This is no different. it is forcing religious views on others.

the administrators DON't KNOW history...plain and simple...


remember...Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. "[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, "[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution. "[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, "[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Their too busy on their Ipod to read history...and doomed to repeat its failures!!!

Originally posted by zoolady
What's wrong with a moment of silence in public schools? Let's be totally honest and just admit it's a way to insert prayer into public classes. Any kid can pray any time in any school. SILENTLY. Let's ask it this way....why DICTATE a moment of silence in public schools?

Prayer in school is constitutional and supports the principle of freedom of religion on which the U.S. was founded:

In banning school prayer, the U.S. Supreme Court has misinterpreted the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. A simple and voluntary school prayer does not amount to the government establishing a religion, any more than do other practices common in the U.S. such as the employment of Congressional chaplains, government recognition of holidays with religious significance such as Christmas or the proclamation of National Days of Prayer.


In banning school prayer the U.S. Supreme Court has mistaken the principle of “freedom of religion,” guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, for freedom from religion and any observance of it.


School prayer would allow religious students the freedom to observe their religious beliefs during the school day. The U.S. Supreme Court has urged school cooperation with religious authorities for “it then respects the religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs.”

food for thought...more.... www.allabouthistory.org...

Originally posted by Gorman91

In the US, there is a "wall of separation" between the state and the personal viewpoints of the individual.

I would respectfully ask you to lok this issue over thru the eyes of our founding fathers...

The Separation of Church and State
David Barton - 01/2001
In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach." The "separation of church and state" phrase which they invoked, and which has today become so familiar, was taken from an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became President.

The election of Jefferson – America's first Anti-Federalist President – elated many Baptists since that denomination, by-and-large, was also strongly Anti-Federalist. This political disposition of the Baptists was understandable, for from the early settlement of Rhode Island in the 1630s to the time of the federal Constitution in the 1780s, the Baptists had often found themselves suffering from the centralization of power.

Consequently, now having a President who not only had championed the rights of Baptists in Virginia but who also had advocated clear limits on the centralization of government powers, the Danbury Baptists wrote Jefferson a letter of praise on October 7, 1801, telling him:

Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity . . . to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the United States. . . . [W]e have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which He bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you. . . . And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator. [1]

However, in that same letter of congratulations, the Baptists also expressed to Jefferson their grave concern over the entire concept of the First Amendment, including of its guarantee for "the free exercise of religion":

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. . . . [T]herefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. [2]

In short, the inclusion of protection for the "free exercise of religion" in the constitution suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the right of religious expression was government-given (thus alienable) rather than God-given (hence inalienable), and that therefore the government might someday attempt to regulate religious expression. This was a possibility to which they strenuously objected-unless, as they had explained, someone's religious practice caused him to "work ill to his neighbor."

Jefferson understood their concern; it was also his own. In fact, he made numerous declarations about the constitutional inability of the federal government to regulate, restrict, or interfere with religious expression. For example:

[N]o power over the freedom of religion . . . [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution. Kentucky Resolution, 1798 [3]

In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general [federal] government. Second Inaugural Address, 1805 [4]

[O]ur excellent Constitution . . . has not placed our religious rights under the power of any public functionary. Letter to the Methodist Episcopal Church, 1808 [5]

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prohibited] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions . . . or exercises. Letter to Samuel Millar, 1808 [6]

Jefferson believed that the government was to be powerless to interfere with religious expressions for a very simple reason: he had long witnessed the unhealthy tendency of government to encroach upon the free exercise of religion. As he explained to Noah Webster:

It had become an universal and almost uncontroverted position in the several States that the purposes of society do not require a surrender of all our rights to our ordinary governors . . . and which experience has nevertheless proved they [the government] will be constantly encroaching on if submitted to them; that there are also certain fences which experience has proved peculiarly efficacious [effective] against wrong and rarely obstructive of right, which yet the governing powers have ever shown a disposition to weaken and remove. Of the first kind, for instance, is freedom of religion. [7]

Thomas Jefferson had no intention of allowing the government to limit, restrict, regulate, or interfere with public religious practices. He believed, along with the other Founders, that the First Amendment had been enacted only to prevent the federal establishment of a national denomination – a fact he made clear in a letter to fellow-signer of the Declaration of Independence Benjamin Rush:

[T]he clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly. [8]

Jefferson had committed himself as President to pursuing the purpose of the First Amendment: preventing the "establishment of a particular form of Christianity" by the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, or any other denomination.

Since this was Jefferson's view concerning religious expression, in his short and polite reply to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, he assured them that they need not fear; that the free exercise of religion would never be interfered with by the federal government. As he explained:

Gentlemen, – The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association give me the highest satisfaction. . . . Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association assurances of my high respect and esteem. [9]

much more here, pls review...ok... www.wallbuilders.com...

remember...Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. "[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, "[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution. "[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, "[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

and this is their opinion.

You cannot force christianity or any other religion on anyone. There are plenty of places and opportunities to worship outside of public schools.

reply to post by Tartarspoon



Nice picture


aaahhhh....yeah.....I'll listen to theirs, before some STATE-RUN media dude....


Research there, my "cunning little daughter" ....yeah, i saw the movie!

reply to post by OldThinker


Public school kids need to do the pledge of allegiance every day. I'm not trying to go off topic but this country could use a little nationalist pride these days. They can have a moment of silence afterwards.

Nothing in my opinion, as long as you call it a moment of silence...

reply to post by OldThinker


What that is is not related to this situation. Forcing students to have a time of silence with the purpose of prayer is a connotation of religious practice being forced upon someone. It wouldn't matter unless they said it was to remember fallen soldiers or a fallen teacher. But to do it everyday with the obvious purpose of religious reasons is against the constitution. The fact is that it is telling someone that you can pray or waste your time doing nothing. That, in and of itself, is virtually a gun to a child to conform. Because that's what a school does: conform children to the norm of society. To force the norm being prayer is to force a religious viewpoint.

That's the simple fact. The founding fathers, at their time, defended minority religious groups because it was the time of the great awakening. Today, atheists, Muslims, Secularists, etc, are the minority and deserve just as much protection as the aforementioned. In accordance withe the wall of separation, Atheism and Christianity are equally religious beliefs. You can BS and say atheism isn't a religion, but in the eyes of the state it is. And there is nothing short of forcing one religion onto another when you have a silent time.

That's the facts kid.

reply to post by jitombe


Separation of Church and state. the pledge is a calling to the American tradition and way of life. Forcing a prayer time is forcing a non-state institution onto the people.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Tartarspoon

remember...Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. "[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, "[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."

Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution. "[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, "[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

and this is their opinion.

You cannot force christianity or any other religion on anyone. There are plenty of places and opportunities to worship outside of public schools.

who is FORCING and / or advocating FORCING anything here? These wise men words stand on their own, right?

OT

Originally posted by Gorman91
Separation of Church and state. the pledge is a calling to the American tradition and way of life. Forcing a prayer time is forcing a non-state institution onto the people.

my friend you are speaking from a temporal/current/short sighted position....you realize that correct?

Prayer was a "way of life" in this country for 190 yrs....


And still IS for those of us OLD ENOUCH to remember....have you forgot?

OT

Originally posted by mental modulator
Nothing in my opinion, as long as you call it a moment of silence...

Excellent! That was my original question...

OT

Originally posted by zoolady
why DICTATE a moment of silence in public schools?

1. Gather your thoughts...
2. A time out from youthful zoo-ber-rance...
3. Reflection on what's important...


You take breaks everyday, what deprive the kids?

OT

[edit on 17-6-2009 by OldThinker]

OP, seems you started this tread with the question "what's wrong with a moment of silence in public schools", and are then using it to "preach" to us about your xtrian beliefs, basically going off topic. Perhaps I should do the same and "preach" about my spiritual beliefs, but no, I won't do that as two wrongs do not make a right.

No, we should not "force" our children, in public schools to have a moment of silence. If a child wants one, fine let them take it. Dictating that they have to, is wrong.

If you want your child to have a moment of silence, do so at home, or send them to a religious based PRIVATE school.

Yes, when I was in school at one time we moved to TX, and was forced to have a moment of silence. I remember my teacher saying that we were having a "moment of silence". She would then stand in front of the class, with her hands in the "prayer" position, and would glare at any of us that refused to take the same position, until we gave in and as well moved our hands into the "I am praying" position. Meaning, that she pushed her beliefs, not by word, but by actions. Those of us who had the audacity to refuse at first, were then treated in a very very disrespectful way by her, being called names in front of the class, being given much harder material etc. She was a hateful xtrian woman who tried to push her beliefs on the rest of us by using the "moment of silence" to enforce prayer.

Think about this, I am Wiccan, how would you feel if I were trying to force the school system to have a "moment of ritual" in public schools? I am going to take a gander here and say you would "hissy fit".

If you really want to make a thread to preach your religious beliefs to others, do so, but not under the illusion that the thread is about something else, ie moment of silence in schools just so you can preach your beliefs. You've gone off topic in your own thread in my thinking.

HARM NONE
Peace