What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
What are you talking about there still is prayer in school. Its called PRIVATE school. As long as the FEDERAL government handles education then no religious preference can be given in these PUBLIC schools. Religion is a PRIVATE matter which is why it belongs in PRIVATE schools. This is why I think the government needs to be out of the business of education. It should be in the hands of the private people so they can choose on issues like this without having the burdens of the government.

???

Who are you talking to TJG?


Me? Where'd I say we still have prayer in public schools?


hum? government in the business of education? Have you seen the SAT scores in decline, since they took out right and wrong, and only teach readin, writin and rithmatic?

Originally posted by C0le

Right wing Christians hate free will, and believe that forcing people to be good makes them good,

That is just plain ignorant!!!

OT

reply to post by C0le


Long rant there C0le....mind answering the OP about a moment of silence?

OT

Originally posted by UmbraSumus
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Hey there OT.

A moments "reflection" before undertaking any task is never time wasted IMHO . Though that is a lesson i have learned over-time and is something one does not naturally associate with the exuberance of youth .

Perhaps instead of a moments silence filled with the mutterings of archaic verse , children should be encouraged to truly, make still their minds .
Thought it could probably construed as a religious ritual also

.

Without the I.D controversy , such a "moments silence", if without prompting of content , may of possibly been realised. But with the encroachement of religious dogma into the field of science in the U.S.A particularly, such a seemingly insignificant side issue would be played as a proxy to the main battle.

Great post!!!!


on the ID controversy...

on the benefits of some silence...


My scripture isn't archaic tho...


Glad you took the time !

reply to post by moocowman



moo, love you bro....but you blew off the data....


here's some more....

• SAT Total Scores Have Dropped:
o From 1954 – 1962 SAT scores were between 960 and 980.
o From 1962 – 1980 SAT scores went from 980 to 890 with SAT scores decreasing every year.
o From 1980 – 1994 SAT scores stayed between 890 and 910.


• Violent Crime Has Increased:
o From 1951 – 1962 the violent crime rate was between 150,000 and 250,000 offenses per year with a rise of about 100,000 offenses per year over that 11 year period with an average increase of 9,000 offenses per year.
o From 1962 – 1993 the violent crime rate increased from 250,000 to 1,900,000 offenses per year. That is an increase of 1,650,000 offenses over that 30 year period with an average increase of 55,000 offenses per year.
o Instances of violent crime increased 760% since prayer was removed from schools in 1962.


• Transmission Of STDs (Gonorrhea) Has Increase In Children Ages 10-14:
o From 1955 – 1962 the number of Gonorrhea cases decreased from 18 per 100,000 children to 14 per 100,000children.
o From 1962 – 1990 the number of Gonorrhea cases increased from 14 per 100,000 children to 66 per 100,000 children, a 471% increase

link: www.articlesbase.com...


moo, more here...half way down. the page... www.cluonline.com...



what OT is advocating isn't extremism....its been around a looong time...

New England Primer used in American public schools for centuries

O LORD God who knowest all Things, thou seest me by Night as well as by Day.

I pray thee for Christ's Sake, forgive me whatsoever I have done amiss this Day, and keep me all this Night, while I am asleep.

I desire to lie down under thy Care, and to abide forever under thy Blessing, for thou art a God of all Power and everlasting Mercy. AMEN.

link: www.christianparty.net...


anyhoo....I always enjoy our discussions moo!

I really do see much wisdom here....

Humanism assumes that the supernatural does not exist and that reality must be discovered purely from man's reasoning. Our public school system has been operating on this foundation since prayer was removed in 1962. Returning prayer to school would be an affront to this philosophy because prayer acknowledges the existence of someone greater than man.

Allowing prayer in school sets an important standard. It tells students that they are more than just a collection of chemicals and energy that happen to be occupying space and time. Prayer is an action which proclaims that life is more than saving the environment or accumulating wealth. The fervency with which school prayer is opposed is not because the ACLU (an anti-Christian legal group) is trying to protect atheist from being indoctrinated by religion. It is opposed because it represents the antithesis to the beliefs of those who set policy for much of our public school system. Prayer is a frontal attack on the notion that mankind is in autonomous control of his own destiny and an insult to those who believe that friends, possessions, or power can bring meaning or joy.

A primary purpose of public education is to shape good citizens. This involves more than just the memorization of facts. Most Americans are in favor of prayer in public school because they realize that there is something to be gained from the open acknowledgement of God's existence. Morals can only be built on the basis that a moral source-God-exists. Once acknowledgement of God's existence is removed, there is no absolute basis for morals, and a free society drifts toward anarchy. Since prayer was removed from public school classrooms in 1962, we have had a six-fold increase in violent crime, our divorce rate has tripled, births to single mothers have increased five-fold, the teenage suicide rate has tripled, and SAT scores (standardized college entrance test) have dropped 80 points (approximately 10%). The removal of prayer may not be the only cause of social ills, but the negative trends are certainly a symptom of the spiritual decline which is at their root.

more: www.drdino.com...


Thoughts?

OT

More evidence of declining morality since 1963....

The chance of being murdered in Washington, DC in 1990 was 3 times greater than the chance of an American soldier being killed in the Gulf War.

About as many Americans were killed (over 54,000) in New York City between 1962 and 2002 as died in the Vietnam War

From the gangland era of the 1930s to 1963 there was a gradual decline in both murders & executions in the United States. In 1963 the U.S. Supreme Court imposed rules on confessions & searches that accompanied a popular sentiment increasingly opposed to capital punishment -- and in 1972 struck down capital punishment laws as being "arbitrary and capricious".

In the early 1960s the vast majority of murder victims were acquainted with the murderer, but by the year 2000 nearly half of murder victims were strangers.

When the World War II Memorial was erected recently in Washington D.C., a quotation by Franklin Delano Roosevelt --- "so help me God" --- was removed from the plaque.

The principles of Christianity, recognized by Constantine, Theodosius, and our founding fathers, as guidelines of morality, necessary to form and sustain a nation, at its best, are being abandoned by many leaders of our government.

As a statistician myself I can't IGNORE the linkage....

It's certainly not black or white, and there are other factors of course...


more: www.beaufortobserver.net...

1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt? - No if a child/teen wants to practice this allow them to go to a room together a "quite" room of sorts and allow them to have their silence.

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? Nope, we only had moments of silence for Veterans day in the smaller school, and the most kids couldn't comprehend it and didn't take it seriously, and then after 9/11 and Oklahoma we had moments of silence for which some took seriously in high school but I was in a school filled with meat heads and trust fund babies so it wasn't really in their depths to understand, and I did it out of respect not for religious reasons.
The major issue during my high school days was the pledge.

3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why? -
No if a child makes the choice to do that on their own they should be able to, we shouldn't tell anyone where how and what they can prey to or for, and we should teach patience and tolerance to those who don't believe that it is ok to not believe and they are suppose to and able to have their own opinions but should always respect others.
As long as neither group forces their opinions on to one another I see no problems with it

I feel it's more the parents who make a big deal out of this then anyone else, and by doing so we are further dividing the youth which doesn't need our help in doing so as it's already a horrible problem within schools.

Give the kids/teens options, let them make their own choices the adults should stay out of it, present the options to them and let them make up their own minds on what they feel is the best way to go about it, trust me they are capable of doing so we don't give them enough credit.

Adults lately are simply too obsessed with what other people believe in.
Your child at one point in another is going to be exposed to other beliefs other then your own, get over it grow some thicker skin and take your nose out of the business end of others.
Your entire world may be turned up side down one day when your child becomes a bible thumper or atheist it's just a reality you're going to have to face so stop thinking that every little out side influence is a bad thing if anything it teaches a child patience and tolerance of other people and different beliefs, something we desperately need in this world.


I say ask the KIDS what THEY want as it's something that directly effects them, not you, me or the government.




[edit on 9-6-2009 by pop_science]


[edit on 9-6-2009 by pop_science]

Originally posted by pop_science
I say ask the KIDS what THEY want as it's something that directly effects them, not you, me or the government.

Nice long thoughtful post....


I wanted to highlight the above question...it would be an interesting study/survey...if the kids were polled...

Would be neat to see the stratified results....based on urban, rural, etc...

reply to post by pop_science


They did survey the adults...

Some striking contrasts are found in the survey between the attitudes of the public and educators on the subject of school prayer:

While the general public strongly supports the notion of allowing educators to lead prayers in schools, most teachers and administrators do not. Nearly two-thirds of the public (65%) agree that "teachers or other public school officials should be allowed to lead prayers in school," while just 38 percent of teachers and 29 percent of administrators feel this way.

Although both teachers and administrators are more likely to support student-led prayer than educator-led prayer, a majority of both groups (53% and 58% respectively) disagree that "students should be allowed to lead prayers over the public address system at public school-sponsored events." Again, the public is far more likely than educators to support this type of school prayer — 64% of the public agree that this should be allowed, as compared to 43% of the educators.
Finally, it appears that federal government guidelines designed to explain to educators how to deal with issues of religious expression and distributed by the Clinton administration to all schools in 2000 failed to reach much of their intended audience. While 42 percent of administrators are at least "somewhat familiar" with the guidelines, only 15 percent of teachers say the same.

The overall findings of the survey suggest that educators aren't convinced that students can exercise their rights with responsibility. They want students to learn about freedom, but not necessarily to practice freedom — at least not in the school setting. This may be due, in part at least, to unfamiliarity among educators about the five freedoms and an uncertainty about how to teach freedom with responsibility in today's permissive society.

These findings pose two key challenges to schools and communities. First, there is an urgent need to reform education about the First Amendment for school officials as well as for students. And second, models must be created to demonstrate that democratic schools framed by First Amendment principles are not risky ventures; they are places of civic responsibility and enhanced learned.

The guiding principles of the First Amendment stand at the heart of our democracy and at the foundation of citizenship in a diverse society. If we are to sustain this extraordinary experiment in liberty, we must resist our fear of freedom — especially among the young — and work to ensure that our schools become laboratories for democracy.
ex]


more here: www.freedomforum.org...


maybe they'd survey the students too? I'll look into it....


of note...

While the general public strongly supports the notion of allowing educators to lead prayers in schools, most teachers and administrators do not.

seems like the NEA has some influence here...???

[edit on 10-6-2009 by OldThinker]

Quite an exhaustive INTERNATIONAL survey on school prayer here...a tad old tho...

www.eric.ed.gov...


OT

Originally posted by pop_science


I say ask the KIDS what THEY want as it's something that directly effects them, not you, me or the government.

Found this....pretty recent too...

1/6/2009

Kids prayer has come a long way in the past five years and is spreading like wildfire worldwide. Many churches have had kids prayer training weekends and at Summons to Sacrifice 2008 we had a record number of children attend. We have held three kids prayer leaders training seminars in which 176 people from 21 states, two Canadian provinces and two African nations have attended. Many came because we were offering a seminar about exactly what the Lord had been dealing with them about during some of their most recent planning sessions. There have been teacher training seminars and kids prayer crusades held in the countries of Bangladesh, Botswana, Estonia, France, Ghana, Guatemala, Holland, Nicaragua, and Zimbabwe. Some teachers that were trained in these countries have relocated and are now teaching kids prayer in surrounding countries.

Why is kids prayer spreading? Adults have become aware of the reality of a recent Barna survey that states one out of four teenagers will leave the church once they are eighteen, as well observing an increasing interest in the supernatural and have found this unacceptable. This has raised awareness that there needs to be a shift in children’s ministry to include more spiritual development in areas such as prayer. Another reason adults have begun to implement prayer into their children’s ministries is by hearing the testimonies of those who already have a kids prayer ministry. I have received reports of healings and miracles. There are also reports of children receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized as a direct result of teaching in their kids prayer group.

Why are kids interested in prayer? Many children that walk through the church doors come from dysfunctional families and neighborhoods where drugs and gangs are rampant. Kids are looking for control over their circumstances. Prayer gives them the control they are looking for. Kids are also looking for something outside of “normal” Sunday school. We are working with a generation that wants to “do”. They want to be involved in ministry – they don’t want to sit on the side lines and wait until they are in the youth group to begin to be involved in ministry. Prayer is an outlet for them to begin doing this.

On a personal level, I have observed many things at my local church. Youth who were in the first kids prayer group have taken on leadership rolls in the youth group. A youth group that desires more of God because of the experiences they had in kids prayer. Young people and children ministering next to the elders of the church. The realization that kids prayer leads to ministry. I have also seen youth that have gone through kids prayer that have walked away but are now coming back and rededicating themselves to God. I can’t help but think that part of the reason why is because of the relationship they built with God in kids prayer. Now the current group of kids are taking responsibility and teaching the younger kids how to pray. Preschoolers are just itching to be able to come to the older prayer class. By teaching kids to pray my local church has increased the number of spiritual warriors fighting the good fight.

If you have never heard of kids prayer before I pray this will encourage you to find out more. If you have a kids prayer group I pray this will encourage you to keep doing what you are doing. “But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” Luke 18:16 (NIV). What is Jesus asking you to do this year?

They seem to think prayer is working, at least in these kids minds....

link: www.wnop.org...

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Thank you for your wonderful thread. I am glad to find someone with sense in this place. Your points are wonderful. By bowing down to every little group of people that complain we have destroyed this once great country. Now we live in the very "anything goes" society that you described. We are almost forced to allow certain groups to ram their opinions down our throats over and over again and we are expected to swallow whatever vile filth that comes forth or we are considered evil and full of hate. I fear for my children's future as I know they will have these same things done to them.


[edit on 8-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Nice new avatar there!!!

Yeah, folks on ATS are 99% open, respectful and willing to learn....and oh how challenging to this old guy...

Hey listen to this...the words are awesome...not to mention the groove!

www.youtube.com...


"...socially acceptable...!"

Here are the lyrics....

- - - - - - - -


Its okay, its alright
Yeah, here we go
Dct is in the house boy
Its okay, its alright

Whatcha thinking, doing the things you do
Whose opinion are ya listening to?
Justifying, you turn it all to gray
Synchronizing to societys ways

Society has gotten to be all outta whack
And dont bother with excuses whether white or black
To blame it on a color wont get a result
Because history reveals to me how ethics were lost
In reality our decency has taken a plunge
In God we trust is an american pun
Funny how it happened so suddenly
Hey yo fellas, kick the melody...

(chorus)
Socially acceptable, its okay, its all right
Socially acceptable, its okay, in whose sight
Socially acceptable

Times are changing, with morals in decay
Human rights have made the wrongs okay
Somethings missing, and if youre asking me
I think that something is the g-o-d

To label wrong or right by the peoples sight
Is like going to a loser to ask advice
And by basing your plans
On another mans way of living life
Is creating a brand of ethics
Sure to be missing the punch
No count morals that are out to lunch
Theyre sliding away cause everything is okay
It was taboo back then but today ya say, what the hey

(repeat chorus)

Yeah, yeah, yeah
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on
Here we go, here we go
A come on, a come on

Everybodys doin it
Whos doin it
Everybodys doin it
Yo, whos doin it
Everybodys doin it
Whos doin it
Everybodys doin it
Yo, yo, yo, whos doin it
Ohhhh, alright
Ohhhh, come on

(bridge)
We gotta back to the principles found in the word
A little g-o-d could be societys cure
From the state that were in cause again were slipping
So pray for america cause time is ticking

Originally posted by OldThinker

Can't project your presense/situation/experience onto the multiple divorces out there...many many are worse, and society pays the price I think...

The point I was making was that there are as many delinquent kids out there that come from what you might term "good families" as there are from "broken homes". Marriage is no guarantee that a child will grow up to be well behaved.

Whether thelr parents are together or divorced, bad kids are bad kids. Forcing them to pray isn't going to change that in the slightest I'm afraid.

reply to post by sotp





Oh I see....


Agree "forcing" never works...

OT


PS: u get a chance to listen to the song a few posts ago...

Why does the moment of silence have to be at school? Just take the 30 seconds with your child and do it at home. It's a personal matter anyway.

Posters....

A big thank you all fo your time on this thread...


Good night...

OT sleepy
Phil 1:3

PS: We'll pick it up tomorrow

Originally posted by Tartarspoon
.....It's a personal matter anyway....

That's a nice politically correct, tagline....I'm glad the GOOD SAMARITAN didn't limit his deeds to "personal"

I'll check back tomorrow for your excellent reply...

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

moo, love you bro....but you blew off the data.... here's some more....

Well I don't know you well enough to love you back OT but as we're opposite sides of the Atlantic I can't imagine you stalking me in the foreseeable future, so I'll continue our polite debate.

No I didn't blow off the data I responded to a portion which I note you did not counter. The never ending supply of data obfuscates your discussion topic (not unusual for xtianity to over complicate the very simple) thread discussion.

1 A moments silence in schools and praying in schools are 2 completely different things.

2 The allegation is that with the demise of praying to imaginary deities in schools (and in life in general) there has been a marked decline in moral values an increase in antisocial behavior and some negative effects from unsuppressed sexual awareness.

Statistics (if any) in relation to misogyny or sexual discrimination whether increase or decrease have not been considered by you I note.

3 We send our children to school to get an education (there seems to be varying opinions of how this is defined) "not to learn someone else s moral values" although being aware of others moral values has its' merits.


The bulk of educational process involves interaction with others, and gathering and considering factual information.

4 The bulk of factual information gathered at schools is passed on as a result of human reasoning,critical thinking and the scientific process (hopefully).

5 Praying to deities (I take it we are discussing the yahwehjesus god) runs contrary to reasoning,critical thinking, and the scientific process.

6 We not only accept the scientific process and reasoning used at schools, but we ask our children to do so and to utilize it themselves.

7 Religion requires the student to suspend critical thinking and reject science in favour of "Faith" IE accepting a viewpoint without evidence as fact.

8

And here's the important bit-

[i]

There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that praying to a deity has any effect, neither is there any proof of the existence of deities. Therefore prayer has no place in our schools

Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references. Be courteous enough to respond to the above points.
Let's make this as simple a discussion as possible and come to the obvious conclusion that -

"Praying to imaginary gods has no place in our schools"

and then we can move on to whether our children could benefit from "Periods of silence" and whether there is any testable evidence of said benefit.