What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

reply to post by Doc Holiday



Doc, those are valids fears my friend...

OT

Those same ppl you mentioned are the same ones that claimed they were doing this for "freadom of religion" while killing? Pushing forcing their religion on the native populace, then only accepting one religion.
This to me is very hypocritical.

Originally posted by 5thElement
What is conspiracy angle here OT ?

aahhh....


Turn on the TV....


Look at the SAT scores....


Seen the countries debt lately....



????????


A far-cry from.....Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary stated, "The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. . . All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."

and...

Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the U. S. House, "Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet."

George Washington, General of the Revolutionary Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, First President of the United States of America, Father of our nation, " Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society."

Benjamin Franklin, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
"Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof." Continental Congress, 1778


THINK THIS HAPPENED BY ACCIDENT?

[edit on 9-6-2009 by OldThinker]

reply to post by Doc Holiday



???

Who is killing?

Where?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

Our founding fathers, and the religion they used to do it, while claiming they were here to escape religious persecution.

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Our founding fathers, and the religion they used to do it, while claiming they were here to escape religious persecution.

You have the right to be on a site like this because of them...


You have a job, freedom, liberty and the chance for happiness because of them....


Hey listen war is awful....but remember...."Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson


Where did you learn these men were primarily killers????????

reply to post by Doc Holiday



These men were pushing civility....

"The foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality; ...the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained..." George Washington, First Inaugural, April 30 1789



[edit on 9-6-2009 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


Look @ the native American populace, the ppl they overthrew..
and forced christianity on, and killed tens of thousands of them.

reply to post by Doc Holiday



Doc, please read... www.amazon.com...


OT

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Look @ the native American populace, the ppl they overthrew..
and forced christianity on, and killed tens of thousands of them.

Remember these founding fathers were pretty elderly...or even long dead when those things happened...


That said, certainly bad things happened....they have been given alot since right?

That said Jesus Christ had nothing to do with murdering tribes....


We'll pick it up tomorrow....real late here....thank you for posting here

Blaming the problems in schools on one thing is unbalanced and unrealistic. I started school in 62 so prayer was already banned, but we did a moment of silence after the pledge. Society changed so much in the 60's, prayer being taken out of school was ONE thing out of a plethora of major changes in this nation. Remember when Lucy and Ricky had to sleep in twin beds though a married TV couple? Everything changed in the 60's and I am so tired of hearing that prayer in schools ruined the nation.

I do think a moment of silence is a good thing. If a kid chooses to pray fine, if not fine. It is a good thing to have a moment to gather our thoughts and get ready for the start of a new day, why is it bad to teach kids this?

I am totally against organized prayer in schools. We have too many kids with a variety of beliefs and that would only make things more complicated. It is bad enough we have adults running around saying "My god is better than your god, my religion is better than your religion, my prayers are better than yours". Lets at least allow the children to learn at school and not to wonder whose god is the bigger one.

reply to post by OldThinker


I am totally against prayer in public schools and I am against the moment of silence as well.
I like the idea of giving people a choice instead of fertilizing them to believe and think what is being fed to them.
If someone wants to say a prayer and give a moments silence then let them.Theres no reason to shove it down peoples throats.

A better question is, whats wrong with doing it at home where it belongs.

1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt? - yeah, people go to school to learn, not to have moments of silence.

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? NO

3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why? yes, because religion is private thing that should be done in ones home, schools are public..

reply to post by OldThinker

Since we are throwing around quotes of the founding fathers, here are a few more......


Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93,

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many gr

reply to post by Ziltoid_the_Omniscient




I'm not 'throwing quotes around'...


I think mine are relevant to my OP...


I, do appreciate, your quotes....problem is for your point....I have at least 10 to your 1.....I've looked at this history longer than a few decades....but I did read yours, thx!

Originally posted by redhead57

I do think a moment of silence is a good thing. If a kid chooses to pray fine, if not fine. It is a good thing to have a moment to gather our thoughts and get ready for the start of a new day, why is it bad to teach kids this?

OK....


Yeah, a moment of silence isn't an endorsed - religion...might be a good thing to get kids settled/focused/etc...and the prayers could pray....


Doubt it'll happen ever tho....

Prayer should be allowed in schools. The only thing is that the school can't tell you to pray to a christian god or a hindu god and they most certainly can't force you to pray. I consider myself an atheist and this in my opinion does not violate seperation of church and state. Someone praying to a God in your classroom does not violate your rights what-so-ever.

But i think as far as the part about kids being more delinquent because prayer has been removed from schools is a bit of a stretch.

I wonder if you Christians that want prayers on school would accept other religions pray side by side with you..you know like muslims, jews, etc..

i say, stop forcing religion oN the CHILDREN!!!

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Next_Heap_With]

First, this 'moment of silence' is just a way to get around the no-prayer in school law. "Oh, gee," they say, "It's just a moment of silence." When everyone knows it's a moment for prayer. Given, you can opt out, but then again, you could too before, merely sitting in silence in either case, though maybe with more of a pretense in one, head bowed.

Secondly, anyone who says, "What harm is that?" has no idea what it's like to actually live as someone who is non-religious in a very religious community.

I have.

And it's not just about religion, it's about the entire social structure. Try going to school with kids who all attend the same church, and since you do not, they either try to convert you, or shun you. Try being taught by teachers that allow their religious beliefs to show in classes on literature, politics and history. Try living in a situation where you will never fit in because you are not one of the 'chosen ones'. You think school cliques are tough normally? Try dealing with it with the added relgious control over it, where any organization has some basis in this, from the cheerleading squad, to the girl scouts, to the drama club and music groups.

And it doesn't stop at childhood. Try working at a company where the 'inside' track also includes being a member of this church. Run for office? Do anything of note and have the support of this community as one of the 'non-members'? Are you kidding?

Sure, there are exceptions. And sure, it's not as blatent as I'm stating, but that makes it no less true.

It's a frustrating existance, living under the thumb of the Church when you don't believe. Being bullied to join, constantly. Being pushed aside when you don't.

That's something some religious folks don't get. I hear over and over, why are we non-believers so angry? Why do we care?

And I wouldn't give a whisker, but for the interference into my life. I don't care what they believe, but just like how so many people don't want the government telling you what to do, I don't want the Church, any Church, telling me. And I think I should have that right.

And that includes going to school, with the emphasis on learning, not on spiritualism of any sorts, even a moment of silence. Because that's not why I'm there.