What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

Originally posted by ExistenceUnknown


But i think as far as the part about kids being more delinquent because prayer has been removed from schools is a bit of a stretch.

Think it through....

Marriage=Family Stability=Respect=Postive society

Divorce=Instability=Lack of leadership=Trouble....


Simple example, but true....


The breakdown of the family, coupled with right and wrong not being taught in schools....has had a negative effect on society.

Originally posted by Next_Heap_With
I wonder if you Christians that want prayers on school would accept other religions pray side by side with you..you know like muslims, jews, etc..

i say, stop forcing religion oN the CHILDREN!!!

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Next_Heap_With]

How would I know????????


They are being SILENT!!!!

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Variation in divorce rates by religion:

Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Source

Originally posted by ExistenceUnknown


But i think as far as the part about kids being more delinquent because prayer has been removed from schools is a bit of a stretch.

Found some more info for your review....

.

A. Young People

1. For 15 years before 1963 pregnancies in girls ages 15 through 19 years had been no more than 15 per thousand After 1963 pregnancies increased 187% in the next 15 years.

2. For younger girls, ages 10 to 14 years, pregnancies since 1963 are up 553%.

3. Before 1963 sexually transmitted diseases among students were 400 per 100,000. Since 1963, they were up 226% in the next 12 years.


B. The Family


1. Before 1963 divorce rates had been declining for 15 years. After 1963 divorces increased 300% each year for the next 15 years.

2. Since 1963 unmarried people living together is up 353%

3. Since 1963 single parent families are up 140%.

4. Since 1963 single parent families with children are up 160%.


C. Education


1. The educational standard of measure has been the SAT scores. SAT scores had been steady for many years before 1963. From 1963 they rapidly declined for 18 consecutive years, even though the same test has been used since 1941.

2. In 1974-75 the rate of decline of the SAT scores decreased, even though they continued to decline. That was when there was an explosion of private religious schools. There were only 1000 Christian schools in 1965. Between 1974 to 1984 they increased to 32,000.


a. That could have an impact if the private schools had higher SAT scores. In checking with the SAT Board it was found that indeed the SAT scores for private schools were nearly 100 points higher than public schools.

b. In fact the scores were at the point where the public schools had been before their decline started in 1963 when prayer and Bible reading/ instruction was removed from the schools.

c. The scores in the public schools were still declining.


3. Of the nation's top academic scholars, three times as many come from private religious schools, which operate on one-third the funds as do the public schools.

D. The Nation


1. Since 1963 violent crime has increased 544%.

3. Illegal drugs have become an enormous & uncontrollable problem.

2. The nation has been deprived of an estimated 30 million citizens through legal abortions just since 1973.

excerpt from www.inplainsite.org...

link: wiki.answers.com...

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown



That seems really LOW???

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Well its a break down of divorce by religion, not divorce amongst the whole country.

I would be interested to see what the statistics of France or the UK would be like. Since their population is increasingly becoming non-religious.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by ExistenceUnknown]

A little more on the "moment of silence" option....

link:www.religioustolerance.org...

An alternative to school prayer:


One Web site, the Natural Prayer Project (NPP), recommends that schools follow a suggestion made by Colin Powell. He recommends a simple moment of silence at the start of each school day. Students could use this interval to pray, meditate, contemplate or study. 2 A book "An Outrageous Idea: Natural Prayer" written by Patty Jo Cornish and illustrated by James Hubbell promotes this concept. 3 She writes:

"We have forgotten that we are all in this together. And, we keep separating ourselves from ourselves, by color, by football teams, by clothes, by money, by creed, by greed, by boundaries, by age, and so on and on. We need something to pull us all together. Natural Prayer could be that miracle. It includes everyone, even the non-believers."

A moment of silence would allow students with religious beliefs as diverse as Atheism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Neopaganism, etc. to participate together; some would pray; others would reflect on the upcoming day; others would meditate. There would be provision for all. A moment of silence could contribute to acceptance of diversity within the student body, and eventually lead to less violence on campus.

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown



Gots ya....


The stats on divorce are there....gonna take some digging though...

OT

I'm going way back to the original OP's question.
I began school in 1959 (holy crap, Batman) and at no point did we ever have prayer in my school. We did recite the Pledge every morning, although even that became somewhat unpopular in High School with that little thing called Vietnam going on. During that period you were not required to say the Pledge, just stand and be quiet.
In grade school we were offered (and my parents signed me up for) a few hours each week for a religious education class, but it was not held at the school. Our little group would walk, yes walk, we did that back then, to a small church a few blocks away. We would have our little get together (it was so long ago that I really can't remember what exactly took place, just that it was at the Church of the Nazarene) and then walk back to school.
Basically I just appreciated that we got a little extra time away from school.
In summary, if you want your kids to pray, take them to church.
PS: The whole "under God" thing in the Pledge wasn't added until 1954 and in my opinion, should never have been included. This is not a "secular" nation but we do have a "secular" government and schools should be no different.
And now completely off topic but along the same path, I really have a problem with preaching politics in church. Same thing should apply. Separation of church and state is a two way street. But that should probably be a separate thread. Feel free, I'm too lazy.
edit to add to that last thought: If you want to preach politics in a church you should be required to give up your tax free status as you are now a political organization, not a religion. Ha.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by zlots331]

Hey OT! How're you doing me old chum?

I see this thread devolving into arguments over the founding fathers and whatnot. Well, we've had those arguments already so I'll step aside on those points, and get to my point:

Originally posted by OldThinker

Excerpt:

Simplified - When the government removed prayer they also removed a sense or moral conviction, right and wrong and accountability. The effects are: Children disrespecting parents, teachers and societies authority. Sexual perversion and rampant sexual sins, teen pregnancy, rape, murder and no regard for human life. Higher crime, higher illiteracy and no sense of direction or purpose. It has actually stripped a culture of any consequence for dignity and the sanity of human life. Think of all the thousands of students enrolled in school, praying for our country, our people, and asking for God's protection and guidance daily...there is no one God would rather answer than children, and we have lost that. How can we possibly not be worse off than we were.

Now as I've told you before I went to a Catholic school when I was a nipper. We had prayers every morning (and not silent ones at that), religious (read: 99% Christian) education classes & regular visits from priests, nuns & bishops. We even had regular masses at our very own purpose-built in-house chapel. However, that didn't mean behaviour was better. It made no difference whatsoever. There was no respect for teachers, some were even assaulted. Several pregnancies and rumored abortions (not the kind of thing to publicly announce if you're Catholic!) there was a lot of vandalisation, drugs problems & a lot of violence including stabbings (bear in mind we don't have the "free gun with every purchase of toilet paper" society in the UK that you guys do).

...and this was during the 80's! Things are even worse now, yet the kids still have to pray etc. My old school wasn't even the worst by a long shot, there were many others with more troubles. So I think that even if you were to re-introduce prayer to the U.S school system you'll find it will not make the difference you think it will...

Originally posted by OldThinker

Think it through....

Marriage=Family Stability=Respect=Postive society

Divorce=Instability=Lack of leadership=Trouble....

Simple example, but true....

Simple example, but complete rubbish...

I have a 16 year old daughter, she's just a reasonably well behaved normal kid brought up to be respectful and have manners. Her mother and I have never been married, and spent some time apart a few years back. I know plenty of others, divorced parents included, who have managed to raised good kids. I also know plenty families who have had succesful marriages yet have terribly badly behaved kids. In fact, most of the unruly kids when I was growing up didn't come from 'broken homes'.

A metaphorical spanner in the works of your argument I think.

Anyway, don't most American schools have libraries? Surely if kids wanted somewhere to go and have a silent prayer that would be as good a place as any. You guys have a good thing going with the seperation of schools and religion, and if you are going to allow prayer into schools then it should be in now way organised and should be a personal choice for the student. And it should be done on their lunch break and not interfere with classes at all.



[edit on 9/6/09 by sotp]

The problem Christians have today is the fact that they cant accept the fact that everyone isn't like them, No matter how much they want everyone to be Christs followers it just isn't going to happen here, This nation is comprised of many faiths, many beliefs and many cultures, Yes this nation has a very significant number of Christians however this nation is not a theocracy, It was never intended to be a theocracy and god willing it will never become a theocracy.

Right wing Christians hate free will, and believe that forcing people to be good makes them good, No it doesn't and wont, and if god wanted mindless subservient drones he wouldn't have gave Adam and Eve free will He told them never to eat from that infamous tree, but he never did anything to prevent them from doing so, Choice, free will, they had it, they made it, and they used it, God didn't interfere.

The only difference between the U.S and Iran is the fact that we aren't a theocracy, Go ahead Christians create an American theocracy here then give it a decade or two and watch as the extreme nut job christian leaders get some real power...

You'll see just how close Islam and Christianity are when those Extreme views are given power...


The government we have was always from its birth intended to remain neutral regarding the aspect of religion, Because the founders knew the consequences of extreme beliefs gaining extraordinary power, and the dangers of such.


Christians, Your right to believe that which yo choose is protected, you can go to church when you please, your churches are tax exempt, You can raise your children by your religious beliefs, no one is stopping you from these things.

Prayer in school, for what reason is it needed? Is your religion so fragile that a lack of such things can rock its foundation? Are you and your church unable to fill this gap? Why do you feel the need to force these theocratic views on everyone else? This is a nation of many religions, RESPECT that, and believe what you choose, no one is stopping you.

Understand that protecting everyone and all views, even those you disagree with, also protects you, and the moment you begin to tread on other peoples rights, you loose your right to object when they tread on yours.


You want your prayer in school? Fine but don't say one word when your Christian majority becomes a Christian minority, and the faith you follow is outnumbered by another faith who forces their beliefs on you.













[edit on 9-6-2009 by C0le]

Originally posted by OldThinker

1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt?

I see nothing wrong with having a time for silence (the longer the better), perhaps better " A time for contemplation and reflection". This is something that is missing in adulthood, we've simply lost the habit and (if any) benefit of doing it.

To instill in our young the habit of taking time out of life (something that comes naturally to them in the early years) for contemplation and reflection,introspection etc. We greatly improve our chances of getting along with each other on this planet, something that every religion has failed to achieve as that was not their goal.

Those that would or do rule us, cannot have this as it allows individuals to start thinking deeply for themselves, and not according to mythological dogmatic controlling doctrines
.

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? You'll be showing your age

At school we were "forced" to pray to the yahwehjesus god out of fear of punishment (often corporal punishment) a fine display xtian goodwill and compassion.

To my horror, I have recently learned that children are still being forced to worship the yahwehjesus god, through fear and manipulation of positions of authority.

Yet another reason why I find xtianity totally repugnant and redundant.

The same old excuse will be made by xtians EG " Ah, you see, real christians don't do that sort of thing, they've clearly got it wrong.

3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why?

Firstly there is no evidence that prayer works (we've ll heard) the anecdotes but these are just hearsay stories, no evidence.

Secondly which of the thousands of gods available would be prayed to and who decides? perhaps the ones with undisputed testable evidence that prayer works ?

By coincidence OT I have in the last couple of days taken issue with the school of one of my children in relation to this subject and I'm once again extremely pissed off with xtianity over it.

You may recall my previous thread - www.abovetopsecret.com... will give you a background to why I'm so pissed off with xtianity.

So, I'm sure it's been asked before...

But if this thing is "non-compulsory" and everyone acknowledges that a student can pray whenever they darn well feel like it...

Then why does it even need to be legislated into the schoolday at all? What makes the "moment of silence" such a damn big deal that politicians need to posture and preen over it when it is, by all accounts, effectively meaningless and pointless?

reply to post by OldThinker



.

A. Young People 1. For 15 years before 1963 pregnancies in girls ages 15 through 19 years had been no more than 15 per thousand After 1963 pregnancies increased 187% in the next 15 years. 2. For younger girls, ages 10 to 14 years, pregnancies since 1963 are up 553%. 3. Before 1963 sexually transmitted diseases among students were 400 per 100,000. Since 1963, they were up 226% in the next 12 years.

Since extianity and its genocidal/ homophobic/ jealous/ misogynous/ schizophrenic god, has been loosing it's controlling grip on populations . Human beings are waking up to the fact that sex is probably one of the best activities you can undertake with another human.

However, I would admit that there are those that have taken advantage of this lessening of fear, self loathing and confusion, instilled over centuries.

If we look to indigenous populations across the earth (the ones that the predominantly xtian countries haven't slaughtered or enslaved to the brink of extinction) we will notice they (many of them) never had these issues,.

Sex was a normal thing to do you wouldn't be roasted in a fire for all eternity just for thinking about it. What we see today is a direct result of centuries of xtian sexual repression and lies.

There is no "Normal" anymore, why ? because for at least 1500 years xtianity has been teaching little children that being a human being "is not normal" they are sinners doomed to torture in hell if they don't believe in the jesusgod or even think about sex or a bodily part.

The birds are coming home to roost, thank you xtianity for saving our souls and destroying young minds.

It would be interesting to see how much sex Islamic women will be getting, when they eventually dump their version of a bronze age myth.

B. The Family

Family values or how to value your family according to the jesus gods' bibles

Leviticus 27:3-7
Male, 60+ years: 15 shekels
Female, 60+ years: 10 shekels
Male, 20-60 years: 50 shekels
Female, 20-60 years: 30 shekels
Male, 5-20 years: 20 shekels
Female, 5-20 years: 10 shekels
Male, 1 month-5 years: 5 shekels
Female, 1 month-5 years:

3 shekels

Yes indeed people, this filth is still being forced down the throats of little children today, " Ah but" say the apologists "We don't read bits like that to them, we just use the nice bits like arks lambs and rainbows ".

Yeah right !

What are you talking about there still is prayer in school. Its called PRIVATE school. As long as the FEDERAL government handles education then no religious preference can be given in these PUBLIC schools. Religion is a PRIVATE matter which is why it belongs in PRIVATE schools. This is why I think the government needs to be out of the business of education. It should be in the hands of the private people so they can choose on issues like this without having the burdens of the government.

reply to post by OldThinker


Hey there OT.

A moments "reflection" before undertaking any task is never time wasted IMHO . Though that is a lesson i have learned over-time and is something one does not naturally associate with the exuberance of youth .

Perhaps instead of a moments silence filled with the mutterings of archaic verse , children should be encouraged to truly, make still their minds .
Thought it could probably construed as a religious ritual also .

Without the I.D controversy , such a "moments silence", if without prompting of content , may of possibly been realised. But with the encroachement of religious dogma into the field of science in the U.S.A particularly, such a seemingly insignificant side issue would be played as a proxy to the main battle.

To Old Thinker:

While I am not a religious person (not exactly true, in the sense that I am spiritual, but if there is a religion out there for me I have not found it yet)

anyway, while I am not a relgious person, I think that it's important that people be free to practice the religious worship behavior of their choice (as long as it's not human sacrifice and cannibalism and whatnot) so therefore I would entirely support taking a moment or a few at the beginning of the day to allow those religious students time to pray to themselves. I do not think schools should encourage it though. They should allow it, tolerate it, but not encourage the students religious beliefs one way or the other. Let those who believe, believe what they want, and the others can twiddle their thumbs or draw stick figures for a few minutes.

But at the same time I wonder, and perhaps you can explain, but why must prayer be done in school? Could those religious students not pray at home before school or make sure to arrive early and pray when they get there?

Because to be honest I think separation of church and state are important and the more catering done for religion in schools, the more likely it will be attempted by some to fully integrate teaching religion in school. That I am not in favor of whatsoever.

Originally posted by zlots331

....I really have a problem with preaching politics in church. Same thing should apply. Separation of church and state is a two way street......
[edit on 9-6-2009 by zlots331]

I do agree with you on this point....


The culprit, at least the last few years has been the liberal, african-american churches...

OT

Originally posted by sotp
Hey OT! How're you doing me old chum?

- - - -

I have a 16 year old daughter, she's just a reasonably well behaved normal kid brought up to be respectful and have manners. Her mother and I have never been married, and spent some time apart a few years back. I know plenty of others, divorced parents included, who have managed to raised good kids. I also know plenty families who have had succesful marriages yet have terribly badly behaved kids. In fact, most of the unruly kids when I was growing up didn't come from 'broken homes'.

......


[edit on 9/6/09 by sotp]

sotp, I'm fine, glad to hear from you...

You both sound engaged as parents, even when separated for a while....you're 16 yr old is blessed....


Can't project your presense/situation/experience onto the multiple divorces out there...many many are worse, and society pays the price I think...

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by OldThinker

1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt?

I see nothing wrong with having a time for silence (the longer the better), perhaps better " A time for contemplation and reflection". This is something that is missing in adulthood, we've simply lost the habit and (if any) benefit of doing it.

To instill in our young the habit of taking time out of life (something that comes naturally to them in the early years) for contemplation and reflection,introspection etc. We greatly improve our chances of getting along with each other on this planet, something that every religion has failed to achieve as that was not their goal.

Those that would or do rule us, cannot have this as it allows individuals to start thinking deeply for themselves, and not according to mythological dogmatic controlling doctrines

moo, I agree with everything you said here...its a first I think

OT