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What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

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posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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A brief history on prayer in public schools here...

www.christianet.com...

Excerpt here:




Prayer in public school has been a foundational act since public educational institutions were first begun, and in fact for many years prior. The history of prayer in public school outlines what prayers were given and when, and why and when prayer was removed from public places of learning. Very recently, prayer in public learning environments was ruled by the U.S. Supreme Court to be unconstitutional, because it violated the separation of church and state. The ruling was to allow personnel to lead prayer in public educational institutions was to hold an audience captive to a certain religion or religious belief, which was undermining the choices of individuals who may not subscribe to a particular religion or faith. Consequently praying was removed in 1962.

It is interesting to note in considering the history of prayer in school, that the seminal case precipitating the 1962 decision was brought by Madelyn Murray O'Hair, an atheist who stated that her very young child was offended when asked to repeat a prayer in public school. Quite frankly, one could ask themselves why a child so young would really have the presence of mind to consider a question of such philosophic significance. Most children under the age of 10 have not had enough education to understand why the subject would be offensive. One could infer from the comment of Ms. O'Hair regarding her child's feelings that she was projecting her philosophy onto her child for the sake of bringing suit against the state. Regardless of the underlying cause of the suit, the court ruled in favor of removing praying from public learning environments.




1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt?

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? You'll be showing your age


3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why?




posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:00 PM
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And what about behavior? Has it gone south?

See: wiki.answers.com...

Excerpt:

Simplified - When the government removed prayer they also removed a sense or moral conviction, right and wrong and accountability. The effects are: Children disrespecting parents, teachers and societies authority. Sexual perversion and rampant sexual sins, teen pregnancy, rape, murder and no regard for human life. Higher crime, higher illiteracy and no sense of direction or purpose. It has actually stripped a culture of any consequence for dignity and the sanity of human life. Think of all the thousands of students enrolled in school, praying for our country, our people, and asking for God's protection and guidance daily...there is no one God would rather answer than children, and we have lost that. How can we possibly not be worse off than we were.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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Found this on the Dennis Prager show.....



OBJECTION: We Live In A Secular Society And Prayer Is Not Appropriate: "We have so
secularized American society! And, of course I am for secular government, of course.
How can I not be--I'm in a minority religion. Of course I want a secular government; but
I don't want a secular society. This is what I don't understand about those who oppose
this. I want to raise kids to believe that they are accountable to a God who has a moral
will. It's not enough to say, "I think it's wrong." My secular friends would want their kids
to say, "Because I think it's wrong." That's not enough. I want a generation to be raised
to believe there's even a God who thinks stealing is wrong."
2. OBJECTION: Religion Is Something A Child Should Choose For Himself or Herself; Prayer
In Schools Should Not Be Forced On Anyone, It's A Matter Of Choice: With regard to a
child choosing for him or herself, you don't choose what you're not exposed to. And the
idea of raising kids with no sense of accountability--to a God, to a religious code--defies
logic. The Supreme Court has ruled that you can't put the Ten Commandments in public
schools. Do you think our society is truly a better place because of not being able to put
"Thou shalt not murder and Thou shalt not steal" on a high school wall? Of course, I fear
religious extremism, but I think that we have gone the other direction for too long--to a
secular extremism.
3. OBJECTION: Kids Can Pray On Their Own: "Of course kids can pray on their own. So, I
have a question. How come we sing the National Anthem at baseball games? You can
sing the National Anthem on your own. Everybody at any time can say "Oh say can you
see...." Why do we do it together? Because that is the way the society affirms an
allegiance, a commitment to the flag, to the country in which we live. That's the same
thing with regard to a prayer. It's not a statement that you must pray. I don't care
whether you pray. I care whether you, student, understand that America was founded
on the basis of a belief that there is a creator, and from this creator emanates our value
as human beings. That's what I care about; not whether or not you pray; but rather that
there just be an acknowledgment of something higher.
4. OBJECTION: Religion Should Be Taught At Home; Schools Are Not A Proper Place For
Having Prayer: "I certainly believe that parents are the most important values
transmitters in a child's life. Of course that's true. But, I think about my own parents
growing up in the early part of the 20th century in New York City. My parents went to
public schools. And you know something--My grandparents who were religious Orthodox
Jews from Eastern Europe knew that their own essential moral values of life were being
echoed at an American non-jewish public school. In my parent's generation, when you
went to school, their parent's believed that the essential values of the home were being
transmitted at school. Nobody believes that today. A lot of parents believe they're at war
with their school's values; and at war with the media's values (television, etc.). That's
why it's not enough to say, "Parents can do it all." I don't have my kids most of the day;
a school does--other people do. I care very much what the values are in that school."
5. OBJECTION: What About Minority Religions Who Are Offended By A Denominational
Prayer (i.e. a christian prayer made in "Jesus name"): "I think "offended" is too strong a
language. I'm not offended. Christianity is the majority religion in this country. And
frankly, as a member of a minority religion, I'm quite happy about that fact. I've written
a book on anti-semitism; I know how Jews have suffered--sometimes in European
Christian countries. But not in this one [not in America]. American Christianity has been
one of the most tolerant forces in the history of the world. I am afraid if it dies. I am
afraid. This non-christian is afraid to see Christianity die in America. When it died in
Europe, we got Communism and Nazism."




more objections refuted here... www.saferschools.org...

Interesting points there....

[edit on 8-6-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:09 PM
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Students can have their moment of silence @ play time if they wish to have it.
It should not be public, this only brings the issue of conversation of religion after the moment of silence.
Which is not the best topic for grade schoolers, esp. if there are drastically different religions present.
Such as wiccans, or pagans, along with muslims and christians.
This would be an instant arguement, and/or fight...



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by Doc Holiday
 


Doc H, Thank you, that is a good point....kids can pray whenever they want to...

Doesn't the "corporate" aspect of the school allowing the 30 seconds say society feels this a good thing...I dunno?

OT



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:16 PM
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A moment of silence does not mean a moment of mass prayer.

A moment of silence is a show of respect and rememberance for a person or people that may have just died. Some like to prayer during this time and some just remain silent.


Moment of silence= ok in schools

Moment for mass prayer= not okay, unless a person or persons take the moment of silence to say a silent prayer on their own.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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A little history on Madelyn Murray O'Hairs son, who the whole case was about in 1962...


Christian Leader William J. Murray: Son of Atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair

Imagine you are a little child again. How would you feel if your mother ran a business and often hired convicted murderers to work for her and was proud of it? Suppose one of the convicts working for your mother stole a large amount of money from her business. Imagine she also cheated on her Federal Income Tax, stole from her own organizations, and printed phony stock certificates, in an attempt to take over other atheist companies. How would you feel if your mother often spent her days in an X-rated movie theater, was the only woman in the theater watching the movies, and boasted about her attendance? Suppose she was even proud to write articles for pornographic magazines. Do you think you would ever want to invite one of your friends home for a meal?

William Murray, a devout Christian, and the son of the late famous atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, doesn't have to imagine. The founder of the Christian ministry, The Religious Freedom Coalition, makes these charges about his mother on his official website, ww.wjmurray.com.... He claims the charges are true, based upon personal knowledge. Although he expressed regret in his belief that his mother never became a Christian before her murder, he nevertheless claims she "led many to hell. That is hard for me to say about my mother, but it is true."






link: www.associatedcontent.com...


Think he now feels bad about it...?



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Thank you for your wonderful thread. I am glad to find someone with sense in this place. Your points are wonderful. By bowing down to every little group of people that complain we have destroyed this once great country. Now we live in the very "anything goes" society that you described. We are almost forced to allow certain groups to ram their opinions down our throats over and over again and we are expected to swallow whatever vile filth that comes forth or we are considered evil and full of hate. I fear for my children's future as I know they will have these same things done to them.


[edit on 8-6-2009 by grapesofraft]



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 



Hey OT...






Doesn't the "corporate" aspect of the school allowing the 30 seconds say society feels this a good thing...I dunno?



I Do..!


It makes it feel less meaningful IMO...if prayer is to truly be a genuine moment in one's life, than it should be done at one's own convenience.


I would think free will is only a compliment to being spiritual...






posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
A brief history on prayer in public schools here...

www.christianet.com...




1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt? No, i dont think so.

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? You'll be showing your age
No, i didn't, in fact i remember when they quit saying the pledg of alegence every morning.

3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why? Yes, because they pray to the wrong god.(IMO)

PEACE!!!


[edit on 04/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
A moment of silence does not mean a moment of mass prayer.

A moment of silence is a show of respect and rememberance for a person or people that may have just died. Some like to prayer during this time and some just remain silent.


Moment of silence= ok in schools

Moment for mass prayer= not okay, unless a person or persons take the moment of silence to say a silent prayer on their own.



jd140...

Thank you for the measured response....I'm thinking I agree 100%...let's see the other responses ok?

OT



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by OldThinker
 


Thank you for your wonderful thread. I am glad to find someone with sense in this place. Your points are wonderful. By bowing down to every little group of people that complain we have destroyed this once great country. Now we live in the very "anything goes" society that you described. We are almost forced to allow certain groups to ram their opinions down our throats over and over again and we are expected to swallow whatever vile filth that comes forth or we are considered evil and full of hate. I fear for my childrens future.




Hey...no thank you for the nice reply....yeah, we can have a time of reflection, prayer if the person wants to,....I think that is respectful to all, believers or non-believers to do what they want...a lil reflection/pausing/etc might be a good thang!



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
A moment of silence is a show of respect and rememberance for a person or people that may have just died. Some like to prayer during this time and some just remain silent.

Moment of silence= ok in schools



WTF..?


Why should everyone have to partake in this b.s...?


Unless you forgot to mention that it's all volunteer......?





posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by chapter29
reply to post by OldThinker
 



Hey OT...






Doesn't the "corporate" aspect of the school allowing the 30 seconds say society feels this a good thing...I dunno?



I Do..!


It makes it feel less meaningful IMO...if prayer is to truly be a genuine moment in one's life, than it should be done at one's own convenience.


I would think free will is only a compliment to being spiritual...






Nice point my friend...can't argue with the whole personal aspect of volunteering yourself to prayer...

Thanks for the post Chapter!!!


btw, I passed that LSS Exam with flying colors...PTL! Sorry



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by chapter29



WTF..?

quote]


is that whiskey, tango, foxtrot?



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by Lichter daraus
 



Thank you for answering the question there Ld!

Curious, who's the RIGHT GOD bro?

OT



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 



Just 'Whiskey' tonight...





Congrats on the Lean Sigma Six my friend...you have Arrived






mramarg idte!





[edit on 6/8/2009 by chapter29]



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:33 PM
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It is just a bad idea, I do not wish to voice my religous oppinion.
So I will use an imaginary situation for this...
What about the child or childeren that do not pray?
What do you tell them to do, when they ask what the moment of silence is for? Because prayer and the situation is strange to them, "a moment of silence?" childeren are very open, and they will ask!
No matter how you go about this religion comes up!
Even if it is to honor death...



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by Doc Holiday
 



Doc H, no problem on the disclosure deal...

When you have time do some research on BEHAVIOR STATS of children when they were allowed to pray compared to the days (now) when they don't...eye opening



Thx for the time....

OT



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by chapter29
 


I never said anything about being forced to participate did I?

If you do not want to participate you can read a book, just respect the other peoples option of participating.

Its like if you go to the movie theater to see a flick. You find yourself not really liking the movie, but your girl likes it. You aren't going to start talking and making noise are you?





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