What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

Originally posted by OldThinker

PS: u get a chance to listen to the song a few posts ago...

I didn't listen, but I had a look at the lyrics. I have to be honest, I've always been repulsed by any attempt at mixing religion and modern popular music, even when I was younger and still believed in Jesus. I've never met anyone who hasn't thought it was just lame. If rap or heavy metal or whatever were supposed to have religious messages then they would have had them at the beginning. I don't mind that kind of thing in the blues as that's always had religious themes permeating through it, but not in a preachy way, and gospel music and church hymns I have no problem with because they are what they are. But making religious music that's "hip" & "down with the kids" is just offensive to me.

...but that's just me.

I agree with the poster on the first page of this topic that makes a distinction between a moment of silence out of respect & reverence and a moment of mass prayer which is different & not for public schools.

Heck, I don't even feel comfortable when some of my religious relatives say grace before dinner. I am the only one at the table not saying grace or amen. If it makes them feel good to say it, that's fine with me. But the flip side is that if *I* were to say my own version of "grace" they'd all be squirming (religion is pretty much not a two way street!)

But yeah, public schools - receive public funds - not appropriate place for school sanctioned prayer of any type.

If it is very very important to you that your children be schooled in a very openly "holy" environment, home school them or send them to a private church-run school.

reply to post by grapesofraft

We are almost forced to allow certain groups to ram their opinions down our throats over and over again and we are expected to swallow whatever vile filth that comes forth or we are considered evil and full of hate.

May I take it you're referring to xtians here ? I would agree totally with vile not 100% on filth but find most of them that turn hateful, at the point when they, are faced with tough questions on why they believe the garbage that they do. Or why they absolutely refuse to think for themselves, and try to force their delusion upon others.

I take it you will agree that there is absolutely no place in a childs' education for praying to bronze age mythological bearded beings that live in the sky ?

Once again, since OT or someone in his camp can't come up with an answer.

if the "moment of silence" is going to be non-compulsory in the school, why the hubub of even putting it into the school day? When you sit back and acknowledge no school is going to keep its students from praying (Unless, perhaps, they can only do so while screaming in tongues and waving a venomous snake around) what the heck is the point of the "moment of silence" in the first place?

I guess my question is... Knowing that the concept is effectively useless, needless, and not going to be enforced, what's the damn point?

Is it just to get your foot in the door so you can use this as a wedge to try to get denominational coercive prayer into schools, or are you just trying to impose some vague notion onto others' children in order to make yourself feel good?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
.....
I guess my question is... Knowing that the concept is effectively useless, needless, and not going to be enforced, what's the damn point?

Is it just to get your foot in the door so you can use this as a wedge to try to get denominational coercive prayer into schools, or are you just trying to impose some vague notion onto others' children in order to make yourself feel good?

There you go...thanks for getting around to a clear question...

Your null hypothesis stated above is prayer makes no difference in kids behavior...correct? OK, where's your evidence for such a CLAIM?OPINION????

To your second question the answer is a simple NO...


And third why did you bring me self esteem into this discussion....sad

[edit on 10-6-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by OldThinker


1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt?

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? You'll be showing your age

3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why?

1) God no! it at least allows those who wish to pray, to pray, and those who don't, to at least keep silent and reflect on other things for the day.

2) Yes I did, all the way through freshmen year. Of course, I was living in a south american country at the time. Once I moved to the U.S. my sophomore year, it was non-existent

3) absolutely not. It is as much a right for those who practice it, as much as it is a right NOT to practice it, for those that choose not to pray. That being said though. I would preffer it be EXTREMELY limited for the purpose that I want my child to go to school to learn and educate themselves. In other words? 30 seconds at the beginning of school, NOTHING more. I don't care if you're from a religion that dictates you have to pray 7 times a day, during the morning, you're at school. Be glad instead that at least you're being allowed a little bit of time in the first place.

I'm actually not as old as I might seem, but I was also raised on the family traditions of America's 1920's generation.

reply to post by OldThinker



reply to post by OldThinker

moo, love you bro....but you blew off the data.... here's some more....

Well I don't know you well enough to love you back OT but as we're opposite sides of the Atlantic I can't imagine you stalking me in the foreseeable future, so I'll continue our polite debate.

No I didn't blow off the data I responded to a portion which I note you did not counter. The never ending supply of data obfuscates your discussion topic (not unusual for xtianity to over complicate the very simple) thread discussion.

1 A moments silence in schools and praying in schools are 2 completely different things.

2 The allegation is that with the demise of praying to imaginary deities in schools (and in life in general) there has been a marked decline in moral values an increase in antisocial behavior and some negative effects from unsuppressed sexual awareness.

Statistics (if any) in relation to misogyny or sexual discrimination whether increase or decrease have not been considered by you I note.

3 We send our children to school to get an education (there seems to be varying opinions of how this is defined) "not to learn someone else s moral values" although being aware of others moral values has its' merits.


The bulk of educational process involves interaction with others, and gathering and considering factual information.

4 The bulk of factual information gathered at schools is passed on as a result of human reasoning,critical thinking and the scientific process (hopefully).

5 Praying to deities (I take it we are discussing the yahwehjesus god) runs contrary to reasoning,critical thinking, and the scientific process.

6 We not only accept the scientific process and reasoning used at schools, but we ask our children to do so and to utilize it themselves.

7 Religion requires the student to suspend critical thinking and reject science in favour of "Faith" IE accepting a viewpoint without evidence as fact.

8 And here's the important bit-






There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that praying to a deity has any effect, neither is there any proof of the existence of deities. Therefore prayer has no place in our schools



Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references. Be courteous enough to respond to the above points.
Let's make this as simple a discussion as possible and come to the obvious conclusion that -


"Praying to imaginary gods has no place in our schools"

and then we can move on to whether our children could benefit from "Periods of silence" and whether there is any testable evidence of said benefit.

It said in that article that children under ten dont even understand how it could be offensive, so why even bother making them pray? they have no idea what they are doing and have no idea about anything other than what they repeat that their parents told them. organized religion irritates me, if you are born to a christian family they brain wash you into believing that, but lets say you were born to a family in india that is Hindu, then the child becomes hindu. all religions are talking about the same god, we just personified it too much and lost the truth. prayer should be ban from public schools and i think any private christian school should be put out of business so the kids can learn about history, not a metephoric, out dated book. Modern christianity is wrecking the world and keeping it out of our young minds is the best thing anyone can do.

Originally posted by LightTraveler
.....prayer should be baned from public schools and i think any private christian school should be put out of business so the kids can learn about history, not a metephoric, out dated book. Modern christianity is wrecking the world and keeping it out of our young minds is the best thing anyone can do.

?? it was banned in 1963 my friend...what history are you learning from
??

Really grandiose there...to get rid of Christian schools...why are you so pissed?

"Out-dated " book, would you prefer Shirley McLain...come on now....just because something is old, doesn't mean its irrelevant, heck, look at OT

"wrecking the world?" how about...

Abaana Ministries
Christian charity which aims to show young people that they can make a difference for the children in Africa. Child sponsorship, summer teams, building schools, and hospitals.
www.abaana.org...

Christian Children's Fund
Provides assistance to needy children worldwide. Services are provided to approximately 4.6 million children and families regardless of race, religion or gender in 31 countries, including the United States.
www.christianchildrensfund.org...

Habitat for Humanity International
A nonprofit, ecumenical Christian housing organization building simple, affordable housing in partnership with people in need. Volunteers and partner families provide most of the labor, and individual and corporate donors provide money and materials to build houses.
www.habitat.org...

Mercy Ships
A global charity, operating a growing fleet of hospital ships in developing nations since 1978. Following the example of Jesus, this organization bring hope and healing to the poor, mobilizing people and resources worldwide.
www.mercyships.org...

World Vision
Helps transform the lives of children and families in need in the name of Christ. Assistance extends to all people, regardless of beliefs, gender, or ethnicity.
www.worldvision.org...

Your Grandmother’s Cupboard
a non-profit organization established by people who recognize the problem and established the Cupboard to help homeless children and their parents. They envisioned it as a means of providing homeless people with common items they need to maintain good health and hygiene but often can’t afford.
www.yourgrandmotherscupboard.org...

link: www.jesussite.com...

??????

Hmm…..A world with out Christians? How would slaves fair? Not Good! Yes, it’s true we Christians allowed slavery in the American past. This was an erroneous belief. Please see (Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:10) for the biblical condemnation of slavery. Christianity lifted the roles of those oppressed, by accepting women and slaves as full members. Historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the catalyst for ending of the international slave trade (which happened before to the Civil War). Did you know that 2/3’s of the members of the American abolition in 1835 were Christians.

How would women fair? Not Good! For many ancient cultures a wife was property of the spouse. Even Aristotle said a women was somewhere between a man and a slave. Read Reasons for God by Tim Keller…"It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitiation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. Also in India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. The gospel spreaders/missionaries saw to it this practice stopped.

What about the Gladiator competition? It may still be going on…Telemachus, an early Christian is recognized as the one who stopped this barbaric practice. What about cannibalism? Yep, alive and well is some countries…before Christian Missionaries, helped primitives grow up.

Would there be true compassion and mercy? Probably not! Jesus’ ministry gave an elevated position to the lowly. Notice the Good Samarian… it’s still a part of a vocabulary . While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Christain charities stand out. Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens/thrift shops, etc. Saint Nick, too, was a saint.

How would Children fair? Not Good! Back in the day infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. In Roman culture the killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. An early Christian document, the Didache, contained instructions against abortion.

What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.

Many of the fine Ivy League Schools used to be Bible Colleges…to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. With the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation…many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.

To require education for the masses in America was first passed by the Puritans. "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.

Remember before Madelyn Marie O’hare, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. This was so prevalent in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.

Most of the first 123 colleges in America were Christian institutions. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: “Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life.” Who wouldathoughtit?

What about the arts? Non-existent! The Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc. Music? No! There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, signed all his work "Solely to the glory of God". Architecture? Boring! No glorious….cathedral!

What about freedom? Government of the People? Nope! For one, America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. Remember the Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture…we used to be taught that in public school history! Also 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were Christians. Also, the truth of the sin nature played a role in the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system. Also the 10 commandments Helped form the idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man…this traces back to the Old Testament, and the Ten Commandments. And what about the idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence? This is certainly a biblical doctrine. Also, the sovereign authority of God (in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)--rather than the sovereignty of the state--is certainly biblical. Also, The Declaration of Independence—speaks of, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator. Remember John Adams emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10.

Free Enterprise and the "Protestant work ethic?” Nope! We have two chooses…biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is servanthood--a Jesus teaching, right?. Evolutionary capitalism relies solely on survival of the fittest. Communism, too is an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good…thus we have ‘the common good’ ???

Originally posted by moocowman
There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that praying to a deity has any effect, neither is there any proof of the existence of deities. Therefore prayer has no place in our schools



Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references. Be courteous enough to respond to the above points.
Let's make this as simple a discussion as possible and come to the obvious conclusion that -

1."Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"2
2."A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit"3
3.Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial.4
1. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"
MethodsCardiac patients from the San Francisco General Medical Center were randomly divided (using a computer-generated list) into two groups. The names of the patients in the "test" group were given to a group of Christians, who prayed for them while they were in the hospital. The intercessory prayer team members were chosen on the following basis:

1.Born again Christians on the basis of John 3:35
2.Led an active Christian life on the basis of
a.daily devotional prayer
b.fellowship in a local Christian church
The "placebo" group received no prayer. Neither the "test" nor the "placebo" group of patients knew if they were receiving prayer. Likewise, the hospital staff, doctors, or nurses were "blinded" since they did not know which patient belonged to which group.

ResultsStatistics were acquired from the prayer and placebo groups both before and after prayer, until the patients were discharged from the hospital. There were no statistical differences between the placebo and the prayer groups before prayer was initiated. The results demonstrated that patients who were prayed for suffered "less congestive heart failure, required less diuretic and antibiotic therapy, had fewer episodes of pneumonia, had fewer cardiac arrests, and were less frequently intubated and ventilated." Statistics demonstrated the the prayer group had a statistically significantly lower severity score based upon the hospital course after entry (p < 0.01). Multivariate analysis of all the parameters measured demonstrated that the outcomes of the two groups were even more statistically significant (p < 0.0001). In science, the standard level of significance is when a "p value" is less than 0.05. A value of 0.01 means that the likelihood the result is because of chance is one in 100. A p value of 0.0001 indicates that in only one study out of 10,000 is the result likely to be due to chance. Table 2 from the study is reproduced below. The remarkable thing which one notices is that nearly every parameter measured is affected by prayer, although individually many categories do not reach the level of statistical significance due to sample size. However, multivariate analysis, which compares all parameters together produces a level of significance seldom reached in any scientific study (p < 0.0001). The author points out that the method used in this study does not produce the maximum effect of prayer, since the study could not control for the effect of outside prayer (i.e., it is likely many of the placebo group were prayed for by persons outside of the study). It is likely that a study which used only atheists (who had no Christian family or friends) would produce an even more dramatic result. However, since atheists make up only 1-2% of the population, it would be difficult to obtain a large enough sample size.

more details.... www.godandscience.org...

OT
LSS Master Black Belt (Statistical GURU:@@

reply to post by OldThinker

OT you seem to be doing dome selective reading my friend, I clearly stated "No evidence in relation to praying to deities (there cannot be as there is no proof of the existence of deities). Here you go OT here my post again I look forward to your response to the points I raise. Oh and yes I will try and find verification of your claims that praying has an effect in the coronary thing. I note with interest though, that you did not specify which deity was responsible for the alleged positive results

No I didn't blow off the data I responded to a portion which I note you did not counter. The never ending supply of data obfuscates your discussion topic (not unusual for xtianity to over complicate the very simple) thread discussion.

1 A moments silence in schools and praying in schools are 2 completely different things.

2 The allegation is that with the demise of praying to imaginary deities in schools (and in life in general) there has been a marked decline in moral values an increase in antisocial behavior and some negative effects from unsuppressed sexual awareness.

Statistics (if any) in relation to misogyny or sexual discrimination whether increase or decrease have not been considered by you I note.

3 We send our children to school to get an education (there seems to be varying opinions of how this is defined) "not to learn someone else s moral values" although being aware of others moral values has its' merits.


The bulk of educational process involves interaction with others, and gathering and considering factual information.

4 The bulk of factual information gathered at schools is passed on as a result of human reasoning,critical thinking and the scientific process (hopefully).

5 Praying to deities (I take it we are discussing the yahwehjesus god) runs contrary to reasoning,critical thinking, and the scientific process.

6 We not only accept the scientific process and reasoning used at schools, but we ask our children to do so and to utilize it themselves.

7 Religion requires the student to suspend critical thinking and reject science in favour of "Faith" IE accepting a viewpoint without evidence as fact.

8 And here's the important bit-






There is no peer reviewed scientific evidence that praying to a deity has any effect, neither is there any proof of the existence of deities. Therefore prayer has no place in our schools



Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references. Be courteous enough to respond to the above points.
Let's make this as simple a discussion as possible and come to the obvious conclusion that -


"Praying to imaginary gods has no place in our schools"

and then we can move on to whether our children could benefit from "Periods of silence" and whether there is any testable evidence of said benefit

Originally posted by moocowman
Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references.

moo, why are you afraid/ignore the most tested/proven book in history?

OT

Originally posted by moocowman
Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references.

Do you realize the bible is supported by archeology?

www.christiananswers.net...

Here are some examples:

The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology

Originally posted by moocowman
Once again OT, please don't respond with endless meaningless bible references.

do you realize fulfilled prophecy supports the bible's credibility?

www.reasons.org...

Here's 5 examples for you and about a dozen more at the link..

((1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1015.)

added link

[edit on 11-6-2009 by OldThinker]

mooo, please review this short vid....www.youtube.com...


Please don't be so closed my friend....

OT

mooo, there is so much here... www.godandscience.org... that I'll be good and save ATS's bandwidth...

OT

reply to post by moocowman


1 A moments silence in schools and praying in schools are 2 completely different things.
---
Yes I agree...

2 The allegation is that with the demise of praying to imaginary deities in schools (and in life in general) there has been a marked decline in moral values an increase in antisocial behavior and some negative effects from unsuppressed sexual awareness.
---
Yes, I accept the data as a negative effect



3 We send our children to school to get an education (there seems to be varying opinions of how this is defined) "not to learn someone else s moral values" although being aware of others moral values has its' merits.
---
Glad you acknowledge....you seem to be contradicting yourself here??


4 The bulk of factual information gathered at schools is passed on as a result of human reasoning,critical thinking and the scientific process (hopefully).
---
You mean like....
George Washington Carver , agricultural chemist, inventor of over 300 products, who said.....
"Without my Savior, I am nothing."
"I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station,
through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in."
"God is going to reveal to us things he never revealed before if we put our hands in his. No books ever go into my laboratory, a thing I am to do and the way of doing it are revealed me."



[edit on 11-6-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by moocowman

7 Religion requires the student to suspend critical thinking and reject science in favour of "Faith" IE accepting a viewpoint without evidence as fact.

link:www.eadshome.com...

There are so many respected scientists that disagree with you....are they all delusional.....that include....

Sir Isaac Newton [1642-1727]
Mathematician, Physicist
Inventor of calculus
Law of universal gravitation
Newton's three laws of motion:
1) Law of inertia 2) Force=mass*acceleration 3) Principle of action and reaction
Published "Newton's Prophecies of Daniel"
after his study and translation of the Book of Daniel [in the Bible]
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history."

" This thing [a scale model of our solar system] is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you, as an atheist, profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"

____________________________________________________________________________

Sir William Herschel [1738-1822]
Astronomist. Discovered Uranus, several nebulae, and binary stars.
First to accurately describe the Milky Way Galaxy
“All human discoveries seem to be made only for the purpose of confirming more and more
the Truths contained in the Sacred Scriptures.”
"The undevout astronomer must be mad."
_____________________________________________________________________


Samuel Morse [1791-1872]
Inventor of the telegraph [Morse's sketch of the railway telegraph above]
"Education without religion is in danger of substituting wild theories for the simple commonsense rules of Christianity."
First message sent by the electric telegraph:
"What hath God wrought"
[This is found in the Bible; Numbers 23:23]
[The message was sent from the Supreme Court Room in the Capitol to the railway depot at Baltimore; May 24, 1844]
[In one letter, Samuel Morse wrote "What hath GOD wrought" by capitalizing and underlining "GOD" twice!]
______________________________________________________________

Michael Faraday [1791-1867]
Inventor of the electric generator and the transformer
Discovered Benzene--used to make plastics, nylon and dyes
Produced the first test tubes
Described Field Theory
*Hailed by Albert Einstein as the foundation for his own scientific discoveries*
Elder in his church for over 20 years
"Speculations? I have none. I am resting on certainties. 'I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.'"
"A Christian finds his guide in the Word of God, and commits the keeping of his soul into the hands of God. He looks for no assurance beyond what the Word can give him, and if his mind is troubled by the cares and fears which assail him, he can go nowhere but in prayer to the throne of
grace and to Scripture."
"Since peace is alone in the gift of God; and as it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope." --[1861 letter]
"The Bible, and it alone, with nothing added to it nor taken away from it by man, is the sole and sufficient guide for each individual, at all times and in all circumstances…For faith in the divinity and work of Christ is the gift of God, and the evidence of this faith is obedience to the commandment of Christ."
____________________________________________________________________________

Matthew Maury [1806-1873]
The "Father" of oceanography
Aided in the laying of the first trans-Atlantic cable
Maury believed Psalm 8:8, which speaks of the "paths of the seas" , and he discovered "oceanic currents"
Maury described atmospheric circulation and showed that it was already described in Ecclesiastes 1:6
Maury showed Job 28:25 to be true with respect to the weight of the winds.

"The Bible is true and science is true, and therefore each, if truly read, but proves the truth of the other."

[edit on 11-6-2009 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker

There are so many respected scientists that disagree with you....are they all delusional.....that include....

Without spending a great deal of time (which I don't have right now) posting lists of scientists that that would agree that there is no proof of a god (and therefore unscientific) I will have to go for an off the top of my head quote (I'm sure you'll forgive my haste and not 100% accuracy).

I believe it was Richard Dawkins (he knowing far more scientists than I) that pointed out that of 16 Nobel prize winners a mere 2 actually believed in a creative deity.

I believe that speaks volumes of the scientific community.

reply to post by OldThinker


4 The bulk of factual information gathered at schools is passed on as a result of human reasoning,critical thinking and the scientific process (hopefully).
---

You mean like.... George Washington Carver , agricultural chemist, inventor of over 300 products, who said..... "Without my Savior, I am nothing." "I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station, through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in." "God is going to reveal to us things he never revealed before if we put our hands in his. No books ever go into my laboratory, a thing I am to do and the way of doing it are revealed me.

"


No I mean like Mrs Smith , who teaches my kids that the earth is a sphere that orbits the sun and can demonstrate this, contrary to the biblical teachings in the bibles inspired by the (obviously erroneous) yahwehJesus.

Needless to say that should my children start praying to the yahwehJesus god of the bibles then they would obviously need to decide whether Mrs Smiths' science is correct or that of Mr yahwehjesus.

However, given that Mr yahwehs' science is wrong and there is no proof of the reality of Mr Yahweh, then perhaps my kids are better off with Mrs Smith.
At least she shows up for class