Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

The OPs logic is severely flawed. If anyone would like to rebut the statement i just made, by all means, try to. But if no one objects, i'm going to assume that we are in agreement.

good day

reply to post by ALLis0NE

YOU are totally ignoring the logic... wow! I can't make it more simple.....

It is impossible for man to exist without being created.

Whatever created you... is technically called your "God" by standard definition.

Your talking about pregnancy and babies. That would make dad my God. lol. My dad is far from the all powerful being that you call God.

As for tracing family lines back to the first, you'll find that Y chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve lived at different times perplexingly. Eve lived about 140,000 years ago in what is now Ethiopia, Kenya or Tanzania. Adam lived in Africa around 60,000 years ago.

Tracing life itself back to it's origins, you'll find uber-simple cells were our first form consisting of just a shell and meaningless and functionless information.

You figure that we are created (biological term is generated) that we need a God. Not really. Life on it's simplest level is organic chemistry. Science currently says that non-living organic matter can naturally become live because of the natural properties of organic compounds forming uber-simple cells.

Using your logic, dead organic matter is humanities god.

Also I think you'll find that someone's God is defined by what/who they worship.

There are naturalistic explanations for all these things, none of which require an actual deity.

reply to post by JPhish


The future would be changed constantly by a humans "Freewill" making future outcomes entirely unpredictable.

God's omniscience vs humans' freewill.

These things cannot simultaneously exist, yet both can simultaneously not exist. 6 cups of one, half a dozen of the other.

[edit on 22/2/2009 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by ALLis0NE


I'm just saying that the universe' existence in no way supports the mythology behind Christianity or in the Bible anymore than it supports the mythology of Zeus.

All you are essentially saying is: All that exists IS all that exists, and I just so happen to call that God. So God exists.


I've made my point.

reply to post by TruthParadox

I'm just saying that the universe' existence in no way supports the mythology behind Christianity or in the Bible anymore than it supports the mythology of Zeus.

She claims that she isn't a Christian though she doesn't mind quoting the bible.

If an intelligence exists that somehow created the Universe then it is not aware of us, just as we're not aware of things so small they might as well not exist. Believing and worshipping is futile because you are still going to die, and there is no afterlife waiting for you. You got life, that is the gift, the biggest punch in the stomach is that it wont last forever. All these memories and thoughts and they don't matter, they will one day cease to be and your consciousness will forever be gone.

I'm hoping technology will reach a stage where we can move our brains to a computer and live forever, but we were probably born in the wrong time frame for that. Plus the fact that even then the Universe will not last forever so that is also futile, eventually the lights will go out and it's game over for the whole show.

As for believers? I doubt for one second there wouldn't be one of you who'd jump at the chance of living forever if it were suddenly offered to you. That in itself makes the idea of looking forward to an afterlife a mockery. That plus I don't need a fear of God to make me a good person.

I can't believe in a God where I read about a teenager who put a cat in a microwave to "see what would happen".

I can't believe in a God when at a wedding I attended as we left the bride and groom were attacked by a bunch of yobs, ruining the day "under God". These pricks don't deserve to live never mind an afterlife.

I can't believe in God when we can watch objects bigger than our planet smash into Jupiter and then still believe there's a purpose to all this. Us witnessing it or not it still would've happened, and there's far larger events happening out there that make us insignificant.

I can't believe in a God when one day any numerous of events will come along and wipe us out, just like when we accidentally step on a bug it'll be as insignificant as that (do all these creatures go to heaven?). A meteorite will one day come and take us out. If we deal with that then one day the sun will die. If we somehow got out of the solar system then then next one we got to will one day die and so on and so forth until the day comes when the Universe and everything in it will die.

There is no purpose to life, you're just here, so just enjoy it. Or be a depressive and don't enjoy it, because it wont matter as you're going to die anyway. Just don't waste it believing crap.

Gaining consciousness is both our blessing and our curse. It gave us intelligence to do so many things but it also made us aware of our own death, something no animal should have to suffer. We needed to create religion to help us sleep at night, it's just unfortunate that as we've got even smarter that necessary creation is becoming less and less able to hold up.

I would love to be a believer, life would be so much easier to handle without having fear of death.

Sorry for the self indulgent ramble.

[edit on 22-2-2009 by John Nada]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by JPhish

 

The future would be changed constantly by a humans "Freewill" making future outcomes entirely unpredictable.

God's omniscience vs humans' freewill.

These things cannot simultaneously exist, yet both can simultaneously not exist. 6 cups of one, half a dozen of the other.

You are technically god. There is no conflict between human free will and god. You just have to understand the relationship correctly. Because the father is all knowing and such, but you are the son and thus you have limited knowledge. This limited perception is needed in order for this reality to exist. If you knew all like the father does, then you would not be able to exist here, as you would already know everything.

So it's just a matter of father and son relationship and understanding it. It's not just in me or you, but in all of us. Part of having free will is giving it away, and that is what the limited perception is. Just like a poker game, it is needed for the experience. If everyone played poker with their cards showing(father perspective, all known) then the game just isn't a game or the same experience. Only because we don't know the cards the other person has is the experience allowed.

Thus why there is always a certain point people can not go past when they talk of NDE's. Because if you go past that point then your limited perception needed for this reality is gone. Also why you could never see all of the father, because again if you actually did then this reality would literally cease to exist as the limited perception is gone.

Can't watch a movie film until you limit it to only 1 frame per second. You can stretch the movie film out and view it all at once, be all knowing of it. But not until you take a limited perception of it does it become a movie and have time, change and the experience.

Psalms 82

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

reply to post by badmedia


Your twisting these simple concepts to make them fit together. So much so that you're not talking about freewill or omniscience any more. If what we do is predictable, even to God, our actions are based on cause and effect. If that's true then our will is not free but deterministic, limited to reactions to environmental ques. Not free.

Also films are not one frame per second, but typically 25 (Pal) or 29.5 fps (NTSC).

Also NDEs aren't real, they are just the dying throws of an oxygen deprived brain.



[edit on 22/2/2009 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by John Nada


Hello John Nada:

I really do not believe you would like your brain taken out of your body and placed somewhere you could live forever.

I do not need to jump at the chance to live forever, I believe my Creator and Lord, when he tells me that he is making a home for me in heaven. I believe in an afterlife. So, I will live forever. Yes, you are saying it if by faith that I believe this, but it through faith that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am sorry that someone put a cat in the microwave. That was not because of God not caring about that animal. It was because the heart of the boy was hard and uncaring. I know God is trying to reach out to that boy.

The same of what happened at your friends wedding. That was terrible and I feel for them, on their special day. But, God was rejoicing on their union together, he didn't cause this bad thing to happen. We live in the world and the Bible tells us that Satan is the prince of this world.

The Universe is a beautiful creation. One that man is still searching for answers to how it all works. Something was made out of nothing. And that something needed a Creator.

Please read Psalms 139:13-16
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know full well, My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.

If our Creator fearfully and wonderfully made us can we not trust him with the life that he woven together?


Peace to you,
Grandma

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by badmedia

 

Your twisting these simple concepts to make them fit together. So much so that you're not talking about freewill or omniscience any more. If what we do is predictable, even to God, our actions are based on cause and effect. If that's true then our will is not free but deterministic, limited to reactions to environmental ques. Not free.

No I'm not, go back and read the thread. It's pretty simple. If our existance is linear, then there is no free will, everything is about action and reaction and determined at the start.

Only if all possibilities exist(knowing everything possible) is it possible for free will to exist. If all possibilities do not exist or are possible, then a basic requirement for free will is broken.

You are looking at the particle, I am looking at the wave.

Also films are not one frame per second, but typically 25 (Pal) or 29.5 fps (NTSC).

Also NDEs aren't real, they are just the dying throws of an oxygen deprived brain.

Good example of someone being anal to avoid the point.

Originally posted by John Nada
I would love to be a believer, life would be so much easier to handle without having fear of death.

Lol, you just painted target on your back for those believers who will attempt to "save" you later on in this post

Nice post, BTW, star for ya

Originally posted by Grandma
Something was made out of nothing. And that something needed a Creator.

No, something does not need creator to become out of nothing.

Nothingness had no way of preventing it

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by Grandma
Something was made out of nothing. And that something needed a Creator.

No, something does not need creator to become out of nothing.

Nothingness had no way of preventing it

I have a few questions.
How could it start it? Why was there a possibility that something could come from nothing, yet the reverse possibility, that the nothing continues without a something spontaneously erupting is non-preventable.
How did the nothing have a law that said it could not prevent something coming from itself, the nothing? If nothing cannot prevent something then its not nothing, its a something unable to stop something else coming from itself, apparently a nothing, but with an inability to prevent something. :w:

Show me something else in nature that has come from nothing. LOL.
Show me that nothing as that of nothing defined as an inevitability that will become something as it has no way of preventing the something coming from itself, a nothing. LOL.



:w:

Nice to see the usual suspects, GW, ToothParadox.
GW saw your post where you referenced determinism, you conveniently left out the compatabalists that see free will as ok. Come on Buddy, express your faith in one school, but be a man about it.

Originally posted by 5thElement
No, something does not need creator to become out of nothing.

Nothingness had no way of preventing it

Where did "nothing" come from then?

There is no such thing as "nothing". "Nothing" is referring to an empty space. Where did space come from?

[edit on 23-2-2009 by ALLis0NE]

reply to post by atlasastro


Interesting isn't it ?

Why there is something rather than nothing (?) is not really a question, that is a boundary to human understanding, end of our logic ...

reply to post by ALLis0NE


Nothing has no origin...

Just as the shadow is the absence of light, Nothingness is absence of everything

reply to post by 5thElement


You don't understand that you can't separate the words "nothing" and "everything", they are bound together for ever, like light and dark.

If "nothing" exists, that would mean "something" had to exist, for there to be "nothing" in the first place.

Imagine the number line. ...-3-2-1 0 +1+2+3... When you say "nothing" you are at the "zero". In order for "0" to exist, that would mean -1 and +1 would have to co-exist.

b.t.w. Light creates shadows, shadows do not create light.

My, this thread hasn't moved on much since lunch.

reply to post by badmedia

Only if all possibilities exist(knowing everything possible) is it possible for free will to exist. If all possibilities do not exist or are possible, then a basic requirement for free will is broken.

To have this debate it would help to have a clear definition to freewill. For the sake of the argument would you define it?

Good example of someone being anal to avoid the point.

Well yes and no. The film thing was just an FYI. Science has some simple explanations for NDEs, some parts of the experiences are completely recreatable in the lab (like the feeling of peace and euphoria).

[edit on 23/2/2009 by Good Wolf]

Conceptions of God held by individual believers vary so widely that there is no clear consensus on the nature of God.[12]

The term truth has no single definition about which a majority of professional philosophers and scholars agree, and various theories of truth continue to be debated. Metaphysical objectivism holds that truths are independent of our beliefs; except for propositions that are actually about our beliefs or sensations, what is true or false is independent of what we think is true or false. According to some trends in philosophy, such as postmodernism/post-structuralism, truth is subjective.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by Wisen Heimer]