Same-sex marriage ban wins; opponents sue to block measure

I'm calling BS about your claims about your daughters. What school district are they in? As for your opinion, I could careless, just don't expect other families to live by your standards, denying gay marriage lawfully affects them, legalizing it does not lawfully affect you.

You don't believe I have daughters? ROFL. TUSD.

Legalizing gay marriage does not affect me 'lawfully', but neither do a lot of other things that I was asked to vote on. I voted and on this issue, I 'won'.

Jemison

reply to post by Jemison


You are right, you did win, for now. That however has nothing to do with right or wrong.

As for your daughters, disregard the question I asked about their school, that is against the rules I believe.

But yes I honestly do not believe your children were taught about homosexuality. You just dragged that out now to make a point, which was not even relevant to the discussion.

You do not deny that it is not lawfully affecting you so I wonder what we are debating about? I expressed to you why prop 8 is wrong and you've avoided that by going,"na-na, so what, I won."

[edit on 9-11-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage

But yes I honestly do not believe your children were taught about homosexuality. You just dragged that out now to make a point, which was not even relevant to the discussion.

I never said that the SCHOOL taught my children homosexuality. You made an assumption.

Jemison

reply to post by Jemison


Well then what was your point in bringing that up? How is that relevant? How does that prove prop 8 is constitutional?

Well then what was your point in bringing that up?

The issue was voted on years ago and was overturned last May and gay marriages were made legal beginning on June 17. Because of the enormity of the decision, it was discussed everywhere and ultimately, there was no way to avoid discussing what 'gay' meant with my children. That wasn't a conversation that I felt was appropriate, nor did my husband, but they had already been exposed so we had no choice.

And now, though it has been voted on AGAIN, protestors are taking to the streets and demanding that the vote be ignored. It's everywhere AGAIN. Because of the way it has and continues to be thrown in my childrens faces, I have become angry with the situation. Any sympathy, understanding or tolerance that I had on the matter has been thrown out the window.

Jemison

reply to post by Jemison


Who knows how many reasons there are for being gay straight or bi ?
I am a ladies man , thats just me . But its not a religious issue for me because I am not religious .

If my daughter came to me one day and said 'dad ,i'm Bi or gay ' I would ask her how she is coping with it ,not condemn her to hellfire like the churches do.

And thats the point for me as a parent . If the love I bear my children cannot bring me to punish them for loving someone of the same sex , how come God can ?

god is just an invention of sadistic church fathers who more often than not are abusive pedophiles when they do get exposed ! So what does that tell you about God when he turns a blind eye to his priests evil ?

No , the church is the beast of revelation , always has been .

The only thing I would say to my son (if I had one ) is this :
'look ,if you are gay ,please be sensible and *Snip*

I was talking about this issue with a naval officer once and he said that the big problem they had whenever they pumped out the septic tanks was the shear volume of condoms fouling the pump impellers ! Still at least they are practicing safe sex . IN THE NAVY......

See ,the thing is , on a very personal level , there are some things about the gay male life style that I dont feel comfortable with either . but if we deny them the basic rights and marginalise them ,it makes them potentially more deviant and reactionary . Its like chaining up a dog in the yard to long . They eventually bark and snarl at everyone because the lack of freedom is making them go mad.

LOVE is the key ingredient to raising happy well adjusted kids Jemison . We can agree on that cant we ? And yes , PERSONALLY , I feel that by and large children should be raised by a father and mother when possible .
I was approached by a Lesbian friend once to be a donor father for her de facto , but I could not do it . I was honoured that they asked me but somehow it did not seem fair to the child I would sire without having any rights to call it my child .

As it turns out my hunch that the relationship would not work out was the correct one .They adopted a boy though so the poor little guy lost one of his mothers .

gay or straight ,to many parents fail their kids and bad parenting is the cause of nearly all the ills in the world . Every good mother can see that .

My father was Bi , but he was a fantastic dad . Full of fun and laughter .
but he was abused by an uncle as a child so he had issues . Yes , mum found it difficult to deal with at times but she went in with her eyes open and they really did love each other very much.
Without love and tolerance , things just go from bad to worse .

To me ,THE BIG EVIL IS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE.

My daughter was getting bullied a lot recently . Pissed me off no end .
Nothing to do with sexual orientation but her right to an education was being stolen because some disfunctional parent was trying to get to my wife and I by encouraging her daughter to bully mine ! Thats how its starts all to often , petty jealousy and prejudice abeted by churchy types turning a blind eye and their children telling my daughter she would go to hell for not going to church every godamn Sunday !!!

When people take religion out of the equation and just apply common sense and respect , THEN you get fairness .

I do think there are times when the gay community shoots itself in the foot with their 'dramatic' tendencies but you have to roll with the punches a little. I would much rather see a gay parade marching down main street than soldiers rounding up their own citizens .

The thing is ,once you get past your fear of gay world your realise that they can and should be integrated and accepted in to the community as usefull contributing members of that society . Thats all they really want ,acceptance . No , one crucifixion was enough ,we cant do that to our own kids so why should we do it to any one else's ?

after all ,if you want to get a REALLY TOP NOTCH HAIR CUT , we all know girls dont we, that gay men are THE BEST ?!!!!

Its the closet gays that are difficult because their anger fear and pain makes them behave irrationaly when they spend to long hugging the broom handles .


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[edit on 11/9/2008 by semperfortis]

reply to post by Jemison


That's your opinion, fine with me. But you are flat out wrong in saying you had no choice, you had a choice to talk to your children about it and to guide them as you saw fit. That frankly would have happened some day, I don't see why anyone should be anti-gay marriage simply because they may have to explain gay marriage to their children, to me that seems awfully dramatic, but again you are entitled to your opinion. However that does not prove that prop 8 is constitutional, neither does puting it to a vote.

[edit on 9-11-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by Christian Voice
tO QUOTE A LADY FROM cALIFORNIA TODAY,
"You can't change the definition of something that existed forever because you don't like it."

I believe that says it all. Since time began, marriage has been between a man and a woman. People wish to change the deffinition so that they feel better about their own immorality.

By that logic, we should re-instate slavery since it's been around FOREVER.

Why don't you put down your Bible for once and consider that trying to regulate another person's life based on nothing other than your personal philosophy/belief is wrong.

reply to post by GeeGee


I will have to agree with him...

a marriage is a union between a man and a woman.

now a civil union..is another story

The fact is a COMPLETE STATE voted and said no way!!!

IS forcing your homosexuality on them going to be worth it in the long run?

I say its gonna come back and bite ya on your butt's if you force the issue.

Let's face it the people didn't have a choice the law was passed and gave to them...
gay people was giving speech "get use to it ..it's legal now" on tv.
The people made a proposition 8..and clearly said not in my state...by a vote..

I don't see whats so hard to understand there.
chalk it up to people are not ready for your gayness ..you get my drift

I have never seen a gay baby
i have never seen a gay 3 year old.

So you can't say we was born that way.
If so doctor's would slap you on ya butt's and go CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
you got a bouncing baby homosexual.


[edit on 10-11-2008 by beforetime]

After reading this entire thread I will say the following:

1) Prop 8 "no" people do not listen, are angry, spewy, challenging, always right, and they appear to know what is right for everyone.

2) Prop 8 "no" people say they lost because of the Mormon church. WRONG. EVERYWHERE I looked I saw No on 8 signs, and every radio station I listened to had No on 8 commercials every 5 minutes. I voted yes on 8 because I consider homosexuality a perversion of soceity, like the many married with children couples do in California. They can do whatever they want, marry, change laws, march and protest, but they will never change my belief that man on man or woman on woman is just simply perversion. Sorry.

3) Red Neck knows his constitution. Thank you so much for all your posts, I learned a lot and had my eyes opened several times. I also never thought about the legal issues some churces would have if they denied gays to be married at their church. Good call to that poster as well!

4) This is not over. The homosexual community will continue this until we change the constitution banning same sex marriage in all states. Can't say that would be a bad thing for society.

5) Of the people who are gay, the majority are without children. So, they do not have the same concerns as families do. We try to raise our children safe, from sexual predators, from perversions, drugs, and the gammit of temtations out there. The last thing a parent wants to explain to a kid is how two homosexual men have intercourse.

6) The final, and the biggie-

Please stop bashing God and/or religion over your cause. While some believe this is THE issue, it is not. The main issue is about mother nature and creation. Homosexuals have turned their nose up at nature and creation. Simple question - Is mother nature and creation wrong? Because that is what your actions and arguments boil down to. You want your cake and eat it too. But you can't, never can, access denied, end of story, end of argument. You are a simple government manipulation of "population contol" and you are too blind to wake up and see that.

Stop before you flame, take a breath, and realize that you will be wasting breath and typing even responding to me. I'm "one of those" you can't get through to, a bigot, ignorant, hater, mormon, and the list goes on. There, I just saved you time so you can go full assault on the next poster that does not agree with your beliefs ;-)

reply to post by knows_but_doesnt


Sorry, you aren't going to get away with it that easy.

but they will never change my belief that man on man or woman on woman is just simply perversion. Sorry.

ha, nobody is saying you have to change your mind -- just stop trying to impose your thoughts on us.

Simple question - Is mother nature and creation wrong?

Nope, she created me gay!

reply to post by wayno

ha, nobody is saying you have to change your mind -- just stop trying to impose your thoughts on us.

That is what the voters in California are asking of you.

There will always need to be a 'normal' in life - just as there will always need to be an 'average'. You can pretend that normal and average don't exist but that doesn't make it true.

Jemison

reply to post by Jemison

There will always need to be a 'normal' in life - just as there will always need to be an 'average'. You can pretend that normal and average don't exist but that doesn't make it true.

And there is also diversity too. Diversity is one of the most powerful things in nature that keeps the ball rolling (eg. biodiversity).
The real world is not made up of neat squares and rows. It is diverse and complex and that is the way it should be. That is OK. That is the way God made it, if you will.
I understand that people who are straight don't want to constantly hear about the woes of people who are gay. Just stop trying to trample on us and you won't be hearing from us. If you keep putting us down and trying to hurt us we will speak up, cry out or do whatever it takes until you stop.
We never try and tell you what you can or can't do, but you feel its your right to do so to us. It isn't.
So just stop.

reply to post by wayno


Don’t bother with him/her wayno. That poster came to this thread, judged all of the anti-prop 8 posters with out even attempting to directly counter any of their post, and stated no evidence to their opinion; they just gave one sided commentary. Let them have their opinion, that’s all that was in that post. If they don’t want to debate the issue by actually addressing how the other posters are supposedly so wrong that’s their choice, and I think anyone reading this discussion can see that they wag their finger at us but have no new substantial evidence to consider or opinion to bring to the table that we haven’t already debated.

We never try and tell you what you can or can't do, but you feel its your right to do so to us. It isn't.

Excuse me? Of course you do. Look at the protests that have been going on throughout California for the last week. You are telling us that our votes don't matter and you aren't respecting our opinion.

This was voted on TWICE in this state. The people have spoken. No one is saying who you can and cannot love. No one is telling you to change. They are simply saying that they want marriage to be defined as the union of a man and a woman.

I have no problem with diversity as long as it isn't being shoved down my throat.

Jemison

reply to post by Jemison


How on earth are two gay people getting married ramming anything down your throat? What does it have to do with you, apart from outraging some ridiculous intolerant belief you have?

This is ridiculous. Homophobia and discrimination are not OK, no matter the reasons.

reply to post by Jemison


No, one is telling you that your vote doesn't matter. But since it seems you and I are both in California, and and on opposite sides of this issue. You could say that our votes cancel each other out on this matter. Hopefully, with that realization you can step away a bit from your feelings behind the issue, and look at the issue as a whole.

Regardless of the subject of the ballot measure (and my terrible math early on in this thread ), does it bother you at all that special interest groups from outside the State, who are gaining tax assistance Federally, affected this election so drastically? I have followed many of your posts here on ATS, and I find it hard to believe that you are okay with the Church groups spending 70Million+ on swaying public opinion on the ballot measure.

In addition, do you understand why the courts overruled the first ballot measure? Ironically, that ballot measure was sponsored by the same Church groups all along. The California Supreme Court overturned the ruling because it was discriminatory. As is Prop 8. Like I have said in previous posts, the only outcome to come from this is the outright ban in the state of California of any marriage, and the institution of Civil Unions in the eyes of the state.

Unfortunately, Marriage isn't really a right at all, but a construct of the Church. Such a progressive state as California will see that as their only Legislative option. They can legally force all employers and such to provide equal services to all Civil Unions, since the Church will not budge in regard to their archaic 'legal' term.

It is sad that the Church would rather destroy the 'Institution of Marriage' for everyone, instead of being inclusive to all mankind. Seems a bit harsh.... don't you think?

California is a progressive place, what starts here reverberates nationwide, if not worldwide. That is why the Church groups from outside the State, chose California to try to shoehorn their ballot measure onto the populace. Unfortunately for their best laid plans, the 'people' of California are 'speaking' up now, attacking the Churches' headquarters within the state, publicly, in the media, even close to rioting it looks like near Los Angeles.

I have always respected your viewpoints here at ATS. But this time your own personal opinion on the matter is clouding your vision of the whole picture. Hopefully, you don't feel this is an attack on you, just an observation. Please try to look at this 'Prop 8 issue' outside of yourself for just a minute, and I think you will see that some of what I am saying offends your sensibilities as a voter, even if your side 'won'.... Our votes will never truly matter as long as Special Interest groups can spend millions on deceptive advertising campaigns to sway voters into voting for discriminatory laws.

How do you think 'Prop 8' would fair in a special election held the first Tuesday of December? No ad dollars allowed. Do you think it could win without the constant ads evoking child molestation and the like? I don't. I actually did not understand how it won until I found out about the millions wasted on that election.

DocMoreau

How do you think 'Prop 8' would fair in a special election held the first Tuesday of December? No ad dollars allowed. Do you think it could win without the constant ads evoking child molestation and the like? I don't. I actually did not understand how it won until I found out about the millions wasted on that election.

Yes. I do believe that it would still pass. Most of the people that I know didn't pay any attention to any of those ads, and in fact, found the ads on both sides annoying and unneccesary.

I think it's an issue that people either agree with or disagree with at a basic level and they really can't be persuaded by either side. I've never come across anyone who was on the fence on this issue. Everyone that I know feels passionatly about it and has felt the same way since the issue was first on the ballot here in California years ago. That includes people on BOTH sides of the issue. As I mentioned in an earlier post my husband is as adamant that gay marriage be allowed as I am in opposing it and I have many friends that voted 'no' on prop 8 as well.

There are very few areas where I am closed minded and will refuse to even entertain the notion of changing my mind. This is one of those areas and I openly admit it. I passionatly believe that marriage should remain a union between a man and a woman and there is nothing anyone can say or do to change my mind, just as there is nothing that anyone can do or say to change many of your minds.

The biggest problem that I have with this situation is the lack of respect that has been shown to people with differing opinions. It has gotten completely out of control and it's getting worse, not better.



Jemison

reply to post by Jemison


As long as you admit to being a closed-minded person who is taking a stance that negatively affects millions of people for no other reason than your own beliefs - that will not be tested in the slightest should they be allowed the same freedoms you are - then fine.

This is just disgusting. Oh, and people aren't being disrespectful because of differing opinions, it's most likely because lots of people don't like intolerant, discriminatory behaviour for any reason. Just like we got rid of laws that separated whites and blacks, now we have to do it for straights and gays. Homophobia is the new racism. And we know how that played out. In a generation or two your family will look back on this stage of American history and be deeply ashamed that people ever took the standpoint that gay people are somehow inferior to straight people.

[edit on 10/11/08 by dave420]

[edit on 10/11/08 by dave420]