Same-sex marriage ban wins; opponents sue to block measure

reply to post by qd22vcc

So you're homophobic just cause? Because someone is diff than what fits in your fairy tale world?

LOL! I'm not homophobic at all and clearly you didn't read my previous posts where I mentioned a close friend who is gay and my best friend who is bi! Why is it that if you support 8 you are assumed to either be a religious nut or homophobic? Sorry, but Prop 8 supporters can't be easily lumped into the categories that many of you like to try to throw us in. Please stop with the name calling and personal attacks because it does not help your cause at all and just makes people resentful.

Jemison

Why change the definition of what it is.It is not "straight' and "gay".
It is normal and abnormal.IN other country's of the world these abnormal people are slaughtered.
We allow/acknowledge their existence.

reply to post by calcoastseeker


Oh gee, why don’t you find another soap box for your hate or stick to the topic, Prop 8. There is no need to suggest that homosexuals should be grateful because we don’t murder them in the US or to bring up normal. Normal is what is common; abnormal is what is not common. If most people believe honor killings are justifiable then in that society such a thing becomes normal, opposing it becomes abnormal. Neither expresses right or wrong.

reply to post by qd22vcc

Thank you. I'm assuming that refers to the last line. The song was on the album "Twenty" and struck a chord with me the first time I heard it.

And in the spirit of that song, I state again, I am not 'pro-Prop 8'. I simply wish people would avoid violence and backlash in the reach for equality, where possible. There are ways to do this without giving up on equality, and in a more productive and eventually satisfying manner.

Of course, it requires a bit of patience and a little understanding of how people think and things work...

TheRedneck

Originally posted by reconpilot

No you dont get much oil from that region , but you would like to and thats the reason why your gov covertly supported the georgian invasion .

Not to get terribly off topic, but isn't kinda hard to invade your own country?

reply to post by TheRedneck


When I return to full time duty I will defend FREEDOM FOR ALL ,not for some . The constitution is a good document but it has to be inacted in the hearts and minds of the people EQUALLY to be effective .

The original russian constitution is an even better document but it was subverted and perverted by the revolution .

Yes ,its difficult to stay rigidly on topic , but when you see the subtext behind the drive and intent of prop 8 , the facts are very disturbing .

The reason I am coming out in support (excuse pun) of rapin , doc and the other gay people is because it takes courage to buck the societal norms and ask the hard questions when everyone else is jumping on the jingoist band wagon.

If I was gay I doubt if I would bother to hit the streets on this one . I am a soldier so I am trained to focus on the enemy in a different way.
Off duty , I like peace and quiet . but all around me , my friends and brothers in arms are preparing for war and they will fight .Black ,white ,yellow, gray ,gay straight ,bi , whatever . We dont have the same prejudices that limit the moral majority on this one .

I have had previous posts banned erased and censored because I have talked in a frank, adult and hopefully ocasionally humorous manner about what excites in certain people, irational prejudice against gay men in particular . Well no point crying over spilt milk . lets just say when the subject penetrates to far it becomes distastefull to some of a sensitive disposition .


you know , there have always been gays in the military ,especially the navy . Come on , its an open secret . But they are sensible and realistic about it ,which is why condoms are issued to prevent STD's and stuff .
If gay men and women were and still are prepared to fight and die for what they believe in ,then by god if they want a fancy bloody wedding ,let them have one . I mean the way some posters rap on they really try to make out as if the gays are going to take over the country !!!!
Thats the most pathetic rational I have seen yet on this thread.
What are they expecting ? Liberace with an RPG launcher ? Seriously .

But in civvy world ,where people do not understand the harsh realities of war , prejudice and fear is stirred up by politicians to drive a covert agenda .Thats why prop 8 got such huge funding .

Different people fight for freedom in different ways according to their strengths and unique ablities . I dont like to see a beautifull young gay woman on this board fighting her ground with such courage and tenacity without the urge to back her up.
And I dont like to see cowards hiding behing a suit of fake armour making threats and getting away with it. I am not talking about you redneck .

A good and honourable warrior does not go to war to asset strip soveriegn nations . He or she will only fight when freedom is threatened .
Such are my people . Death before dishonour . Give me freedom or give me death .

'There'll be blue birds over ,the white cliffs of dover , tommorow ,just you wait and see'.

When you see the bluehawk insignia on the side of our craft you will know what that really means . The imperium is back . And this time in far greater numbers than you can possibly imagine .

you want freedom ? , then damn well fight for it ! Instead of turning on each other .

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by reconpilot

No you dont get much oil from that region , but you would like to and thats the reason why your gov covertly supported the georgian invasion .

Not to get terribly off topic, but isn't kinda hard to invade your own country?

Well lets hope you dont get to find that out . But troops were used in germany to round up its own citizens so why not yours ? The camps are already built and no doubt you will gloat for a while when the minorities are rounded up and sent to them for displaying the courage you may not .

The CIA funded sadam to the hilt so your argument really only displays your naivety .

Originally posted by Jemison
Why is it that if you support 8 you are assumed to either be a religious nut or homophobic?

Why else would you specifically not want other specific people to not have certain benefits that will not effect you or your benefits?

Originally posted by reconpilot

I have had previous posts banned erased and censored because I have talked in a frank, adult and hopefully ocasionally humorous manner about what excites in certain people, irational prejudice against gay men in particular . Well no point crying over spilt milk . lets just say when the subject penetrates to far it becomes distastefull to some of a sensitive disposition .

Or it becomes distasteful to the parents of teens who make up a portion of the membership of ATS.

This site is for ALL AGES and we'd prefer to keep it that way. There are 'adult' sites aplenty on the web for such discussions.

Please stay on topic.

reply to post by Jezus

Why else would you specifically not want other specific people to not have certain benefits that will not effect you or your benefits?

In the state of California gays have civil unions which afford them the same 'benefits'.

I believe marriage should be reserved for the union between a man and a woman. I believe it is a tradition that should remain as it is. I'm not telling anyone that homosexuality is bad or wrong or that they should change their life-style. I'm not passing judgement. You can call me names and try to spin it however you want to. It doesn't change my belief and it doesn't make your judgements of me right.

And it is disappointing that I offered to look into the constitutional aspect of Prop 8 with an open mind and not one person acknowledged my willingness to do so. It really makes me wonder what it is that some of you are really fighting for.

Jemison

Originally posted by Jemison
It really makes me wonder what it is that some of you are really fighting for.

Hmm just equal rights, that's about it.

reply to post by Jemison


Civil Unions do not give all of the same benefits. As for the “tradition” argument, I’ve addressed that by showing you historical research that shows gays enjoyed marriage six hundred years ago in medieval Europe and depending on the culture, such as Native American cultures, gays also enjoyed what they then considered marriage much father back than six hundred years ago. Gay marriage is nothing new, it has existed previously and was apart of the tradition of marriage. Even despite this evidence I still don’t get the tradition argument, just because a definition has been considered one way for a long time to some people doesn’t mean it can not be slightly altered to progressively include all consenting adults who wish to take part in the practice. (Who aren’t related that is- just throwing that out there to avoid the incest statements)

Immigration:
A United States citizen who is married can sponsor his or her non-American spouse for immigration into this country. Those with Civil Unions have no such privilege.
Taxes:
Civil Unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples would not be able to file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples.
Benefits:
The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.
But can’t a lawyer set all this up for gay and lesbian couples?
No. A lawyer can set up some things like durable power of attorney, wills and medical power of attorney. There are several problems with this, however.
1. It costs thousands of dollars in legal fees. A simple marriage license, which usually costs under $100 would cover all the same rights and benefits.
2. Any of these can be challenged in court. As a matter of fact, more wills are challenged than not. In the case of wills, legal spouses always have more legal power than any other family member.
3. Marriage laws are universal. If someone’s husband or wife is injured in an accident, all you need to do is show up and say you’re his or her spouse. You will not be questioned. If you show up at the hospital with your legal paperwork, the employees may not know what to do with you. If you simply say, "He's my husband," you will immediately be taken to your spouse's side.

lesbianlife.about.com...

Gays want to get married!

My gentle tap dancing Jesus, next thing you know, they'll want to vote.

Originally posted by Jemison
The biggest problem that I have with this situation is the lack of respect that has been shown to people with differing opinions. It has gotten completely out of control and it's getting worse, not better.

Jemison

I want you to know that while our opinions differ from time to time, I truly respect you, especially for sticking with it.

You do see how 'Marriage' is going to be lost by all in this fight, right? The point of view of Marriage being only for a Man & a Woman is going to be deemed 'discriminatory' to some, and will be 'banned' by the courts if couples of all types are not able to enter into a 'marriage' instead of a business or civil union.

Either way, while I don't share your views, I feel it is ridiculous some of the posts I just read that were out right mean towards you. Please, everyone, we need to maintain a certain amount of decorum. Less 'Eye for an eye', more 'Do unto others, as you would expect they should do unto you'... Please afford Jemison the same respect you would want, and we can maintain a spirited debate. But labeling anyone a 'homophobe' is the same as any bigoted remark, uncalled for. Besides gaining mod ire that behavior is pretty petty in a faceless internet chat board.

Thanks in advance.
DocMoreau

Originally posted by Jemison

And it is disappointing that I offered to look into the constitutional aspect of Prop 8 with an open mind and not one person acknowledged my willingness to do so. It really makes me wonder what it is that some of you are really fighting for.

Jemison

I was waiting for you to come back with your answer.

It was your offer.

'Do unto others, as you would expect they should do unto you'

EXACTLY.

That is all people are looking for.

The same treatment as anyone else.

Personally I think the world is completely out of control, there is no abnormal, no normal, no freedom and no concept of consequence and a ton of megalomaniac hypocrites.

I believe this lies in the fault of people becoming so open and so accepting to anything that there is no line to be found in the sand. No one is willing to say enough is enough and I think in that this kind of determination is dwindling in todays world and is the cause of so many issues.

What will it take for someone to say enough is enough, where is the standard in today's world, I dont think there is any such thing anymore. In metaphorical terms, Its a case where we open the doors to anything and everything and then wonder why the room is so full of chaos. Will public sex become normal, frat parties be normal, swinger parties be normal, where does it end. Or should we adopt the 'accept everything' approach and make them 'normal' too.

Poeple don't seem to want to go back to the fundamentals of life and actually want to make informed decisions about things as is reflected in todays world. People dont want rules to govern and establish their lives, instead they want to break everything and end up in chaos.

The constitution is there to establish rules, regulations and the foundation of how everything works, you cant jam the constitution full of minority and majority ideas and ideals and expect the system to work, it wont.

We need rules we need standards and when we let everyones opinion and free speech influence everything to do in our lives with no rules or standards, the only thing that will come of it is chaos....funny that, its exactly what the world is today, total chaos.

Im not against free speech, Im totally for free speech and new ideas, I love to grow and adapt to different things but there has to be a time where we filter these ideas into the practical and non-practical

[edit on 11-11-2008 by reconpilot]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by reconpilot]

reply to post by reconpilot


your not the only one, me too, i had a little warning thing back there.

man, you should know better than to pile everyone into the same heap, dont ya think?

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


I admire your stance in defending yourself against allot of people on here and your obviously very passionate about it. One thing I want to mention as I mentioned in my post about the fundamentals is that any decision to have same sex marriages is going to cause allot of people to go back to what was mentioned, fundamentals.

Genetically, biologically and physically the male and female form are designed for procreation with each other, thats what they are designed for. This fact alone is what many people will base their decision on, the fundamentals. In no book does it say the male of female form is designed for the same sex which is where in my view I believe being gay is hormone focused.

This fact wont ever change so that means that it will also serve as the argument that being gay let alone having same sex marriage is not meant to be, which by our very creations it isn't. I want to mention that I am not gay myself and am not religious and am in-fact spiritual.

So why would I worry about something that does not effect me you might ask?

Because I don't want to watch the world become careless and tumble into chaos with ridiculous debates about same sex marriage of 'yes' when nature, science and fact say 'no', Im not one for tolerating arrogance. I want to at least share my view so that I can say that I contributed in some way, thats why

I know two girls who are gay and they have a unique view in that: They both view that they are 'different' not 'normal' and they look at the fundamentals and honestly acknowledge this. They would not choose to marry because they see the same point I do, our bodies design wise say 'its not meant to be'.

I find the 'accept anything' approach is severely robbing people of common sense and questions and in a society where so many things are 'normal' based on no fundamentals.

In summary I find that in the female and male forms as being designed for each other and not the same sex is the foundation and fundamentals which cause people to say no to same sex marriage.

An additional problem is we are in a world that gender wise especially, does not deal with issues and important questions and just accepts everything. Normality can be found in fundamentals and established fact. But who is game enough to judge themselves by these measures when society demonstrates arrogance in acknowledging the fundamentals in the first place.

'Better to just accept issues than to deal with them' unfortunately is where the world has lost its way, in its inability to be honest with itself


[edit on 11-11-2008 by Drakiir]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by Drakiir]