Same-sex marriage ban wins; opponents sue to block measure

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by wayno

 

Don’t bother with him/her wayno. That poster came to this thread, judged all of the anti-prop 8 posters with out even attempting to directly counter any of their post, and stated no evidence to their opinion; they just gave one sided commentary. Let them have their opinion, that’s all that was in that post. If they don’t want to debate the issue by actually addressing how the other posters are supposedly so wrong that’s their choice, and I think anyone reading this discussion can see that they wag their finger at us but have no new substantial evidence to consider or opinion to bring to the table that we haven’t already debated.

I also made a statement when I voted and won on Prop 8, but you failed to listen or respect that too.

It's the prop 8 supporters like you, that spam the boards, march, protest, whine, call normal people bigots and such that has killed your cause so dead it's something we laugh at now. Your people are bafoonery right now, with "gay in's", "Love parades", "Rainbow Days", and taking our kids to gay marriages thinking that we will just "conform" to your perversions. You wanted a fight, you got a fight, and we took it right home. You WILL NEVER EVER, EVER EVER, EVER win this fight, EVER.

But.... You will continue the fight, only to lose even more supporters, wake up more people to what absolute weirdos are out there, and have even more families be concerned about your so called "cause".

I'm not going to "debate" you. I don't have to, because you have nothing, zero, NADA to debate about. You are still just whining because you lost. Come back again next vote and I'll entertain you a little then. Bye bye now.

Ooh, that stung didn't it.

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


Normal is what is common; abnormal is what is not common. If most people believe honor killings are justifiable then in that society such a thing becomes normal, opposing it becomes abnormal. Neither expresses right or wrong.

And that is the massive gigantic flaw in todays society, whatever is repeated enough becomes acceptable and funny enough there are no fundamentals or foundation for normality.

This is what is spinning our world into chaos with this kind of approach in not subjectively and analytically studying what should and should not be accepted. I have heard the saying 'we accept you no matter how different you are' its seems all happy and 'fantasylandish' but in reality its totally arrogant.

It teaches society not to worry about issues that could be a problem, ignore them and just be happy, and then we turn around and wonder why the world is so chaotic

I don't really see the problem with same sex marriage. I mean what's sacred about marriage anymore? A lot of people get divorced these days, compared to the less than 1% of civil partnerships that end in divorce.

www.pinknews.co.uk...

Okay, it's from a source that calls itself Europe's largest gay news service, but why is that a problem? Great Britain has introduced gay marriage and lo and behold!, society isn't gnawing it's own arms off in despair. If gay people want to marry, and be unhappy, then let them.

Unless two numptees taking their vows on a whim have a bigger right to be together then two people who are in love of course.

reply to post by Drakiir


Drakiir, you did an excellent job of explaining things in a way that I was not able to.

Doc, thank you for your request to maintain a respectful discussion. I understand that people on both sides of this debate are passionate in their beliefs and sadly that can make for a nasty debate that results in people resorting to throwing insults and name-calling. It doesn't help either side but unfortunatly that's what comes with the frustration of not being able to convince others of something that you believe so entirely.

I haven't started looking into the constitutionality of Prop 8 yet but I plan to do that in a little while. I'll post if I have any questions or when I form an opinion one way or another.

Jemison

religious people are both ignorant and arrogant if they think everyone needs to follow their rules
the ones trying to look "holier than thou" are always the ones most guilty
Latinos and blacks are anti-gay more than other groups because of both misplaced machismo and religious brainwashing

it is just plain silly for anyone to associate gay rights with chaos and breakdown of civil society
your American society is not in chaos because of gay people seeking equal treatment under the law but because so many of you have had your head in the sand and refused to witness the corruption within the political, commercial and religious institutions you hold so dear.
trying to hide out in "safe" neighborhoods free of "perverts" is itself very perverted

how about getting back to "loving thy neighbor" and taking care of each other against the real evils that are taking you down

instead of denying basic human values and rights to people who are gay, how about tackling some real problems - like the fascism in your government, the robbery of your hard earned $ by the multi-nationals, the misrepresentation of religion by churches and extremists....... and on, and on......

reply to post by reconpilot

The constitution is a good document but it has to be inacted in the hearts and minds of the people EQUALLY to be effective .

No document, no law, no sense of morality or equality will ever win over the hearts and minds of every single individual. That's why we have judges and punishment for crimes. It's a noble thought, to be sure, but an unobtainable goal.

The original russian constitution is an even better document but it was subverted and perverted by the revolution .

I beg to differ. It does look that way at first read, but the rights enumerated were so all-encompassing and so intrusive on other rights that the decline was inevitable. And should we continue to change the US Constitution via public opinion and translation, we will fall into the same trap.

Liberace with an RPG launcher ?

I will personally be laughing over this one for days. Thanks!

A good and honourable warrior does not go to war to asset strip soveriegn nations . He or she will only fight when freedom is threatened .
Such are my people . Death before dishonour . Give me freedom or give me death .

Nice words. But as a soldier (and I must say, that is an occupation I consider to be extremely honorable), surely you know why we try to avoid war. War never ends well. War is the brutal and absolute destruction of the enemy. Diplomacy is always the best solution, with the caveat that any successful diplomacy must be backed up with the ability to wage war should it fail.

For 8 years, we have been decrying Bush for his pack of diplomatic tactics and eagerness to go to war. Yet we are doing the sane thing here. Diplomacy has failed those who want gay marriage. Will we now continue to try diplomacy, or will we send in the troops to kill and maim the enemy?

Every situation is different and requires different tactics. Here we have an outnumbered force, defeated in diplomatic talks. This force is organized, yet contains many who have no real zeal for fighting and no doubt will abandon the fight should things get tough. The official powers (the law) are on the opposing side. Now, think this over, as a soldier. Do you immediately declare war against the enemy, or do you try more diplomacy until the odds are more favorable?

TheRedneck

reply to post by reconpilot



Not the time nor the place to debate those topics, I'm afraid. Perhaps another thread sometime, Ok? I promise.

reply to post by knows_but_doesnt


I have nothing to debate? Please contradict the post I've made about Prop 8 being unconstitutional and legally wrong if I have nothing to debate. I look forward to it.

You WILL NEVER EVER, EVER EVER, EVER win this fight, EVER.

You are entitled to this opinion, but you are wrong, in my eyes. We have already been winning, this year the prop only won by a narrow 4%, last time it was put to a vote it won by much more, we have increasingly been narrowing the numbers, eventually they will swing in our favor, as they have been for the past forty years. It takes time, just like with blacks, they fought the oppression for hundreds of years, and over came.


[edit on 11-11-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by Drakiir


Well when it comes to this issue gays have been with us since the dawn of time, as humans and in several animal species, I don’t see why a select few get to decide they are not normal. As for society, I have trouble living in one that does not accept people who research has shown did not choose their orientation, can not change it, and must accept to it be a happy, healthy adults. Apa.org

Originally posted by beforetime
reply to post by GeeGee

 

I will have to agree with him...

a marriage is a union between a man and a woman.

I have never seen a gay baby
i have never seen a gay 3 year old.

So you can't say we was born that way.
If so doctor's would slap you on ya butt's and go CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
you got a bouncing baby homosexual.


[edit on 10-11-2008 by beforetime]

Admit it, you believe that because your Bible dictates your life and you're at the very least a bit prejudice against homosexuals.

And I'm not a homosexual, but I will speak out when prejudice against a certain group of human beings is so blatant.

And if you don't think people are born that way and it's a choice, then tell me this, did you choose to like women?

When you were a teenager, did you look at men and women and say "hmm, I think I will choose the woman as my sexual pursuit." No? Then what makes you think homosexuals, a man or women made from the same organic materials as you and I, are any different?

reply to post by Drakiir

This fact wont ever change so that means that it will also serve as the argument that being gay let alone having same sex marriage is not meant to be

What facts? What research shows that homosexuality is not part of nature? It has existed from the dawn of time in several species. Even if you do not consider it “natural” because of reproduction issues homosexuality has been here from the start and will stay until the end. Why should we make those born as homosexuals live by your standards based on what is “natural” until the end of time? They are here just like us and will remain, and they end up here just as “naturally” as straights do. This is also not an argument about nature, I respect your opinion, but this is a serious legal issue, and last time I checked laws were not allowed to be made based off what makes others uncomfortable due to their supposed understanding of nature. This issue does not lawfully affect you, that is the case against Prop 8, it is rooted in logical legality, not personal opinions.




[edit on 11-11-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Love will find a way.

The monolith that is bigotry can not be vaporized overnight, and most LGBT advocates understand this very well.

A vote here.....chip, chip, chip. A couple of hundred supporters added to the mix.

A vote there.......chip, chip, chip. Several thousand new supporters picked up.

This issue will not go away simply because one proposition was passed.

Tolerant attitudes for LGBT persons among young people continues to rise and the less tolerant elder generation dies off.

All of this is moot however, because of five simple words:

Love will find a way.


[edit on 11-11-2008 by round_eyed_dog]

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage

but this is a serious legal issue, and last time I checked laws were not allowed to be made based off what makes others uncomfortable due to their supposed understanding of nature. This issue does not lawfully affect you, that is the case against Prop 8, it is rooted in logical legality, not personal opinions.

This is a bit off topic but it does relate and I'm curious to know your thought. In California we voted to have English be the official language. It won by an overwhelming majority. However, it was never made a law because it was found to be unconstituional. I was livid that it was put to a vote when ultimately the voices were simply ignored.

Because you believe that Prop 8 is unconstitutional this is very similar to the English language vote, isn't it? What was your view on that issue? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer. This isn't a 'gotcha' question so please don't think that I have an ulterior motive in asking.

Jemison

Drakiir - - I have read several of your posts.

To me they are just excuses. Many based on fear and control.

Love One Another - - - and Do Unto Others as You Would Have Others Do Unto You - - is pretty clear to me.

I'm not seeing those sentiments expressed in your diatribes.

Originally posted by calcoastseeker
Why change the definition of what it is.It is not "straight' and "gay".
It is normal and abnormal.IN other country's of the world these abnormal people are slaughtered.
We allow/acknowledge their existence.

You sound like a fascist.

First of all, in other countries, you don't have nearly as much freedom as you do here.

Secondly, countries that do execute people for being gay are for the most part, corrupt(big surprise). Iran executed two gay teens by hanging them two years ago, since it is punishable by law in that country. If you think stoning, hanging, dropping from the highest perch, or halved by a sword is "the right thing to do" to people of a different sexual orientation, then you might as well hate freedom.

reply to post by Jemison

What was your view on that issue?

I wouldn’t be able to tell you, I haven’t followed that issue. If I’m given all the arguments for it and against it and the actual argument made for it on the ballot I’m sure I can give you an answer. I thought that issue was tackled in CA in the 80’s?

Originally posted by Jemison
reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage

 

but this is a serious legal issue, and last time I checked laws were not allowed to be made based off what makes others uncomfortable due to their supposed understanding of nature. This issue does not lawfully affect you, that is the case against Prop 8, it is rooted in logical legality, not personal opinions.

This is a bit off topic but it does relate and I'm curious to know your thought. In California we voted to have English be the official language. It won by an overwhelming majority. However, it was never made a law because it was found to be unconstituional. I was livid that it was put to a vote when ultimately the voices were simply ignored.

Because you believe that Prop 8 is unconstitutional this is very similar to the English language vote, isn't it? What was your view on that issue? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer. This isn't a 'gotcha' question so please don't think that I have an ulterior motive in asking.

Jemison

I personally find this a ridiculous argument. Both California and Arizona were part of Mexico. Spanish or Mex-Spanish is the natural language - IMO (in my opinion). Who exactly decides these things?

As far as I'm concerned - - - it should be mandatory to learn to speak Spanish. Not only is it gratuitous to the original inhabitants of our regions - - - but educational to understand more then one language - - - and the beginning of understanding a very established culture.

Excuse me for being a WASP.

I wouldn’t be able to tell you, I haven’t followed that issue. If I’m given all the arguments for it and against it and the actual argument made for it on the ballot I’m sure I can give you an answer. I thought that issue was tackled in CA in the 80’s?

It's not worth presenting any arguements for/against. I was simply curious because that issue was thrown out by the courts in a similar way that you are hoping Prop 8 will be. Like I had said, it wasn't a gotcha type question, I was just wondering how you viewed something that seemed similar.

And for the poster that said we should learn Spanish, I have no problem with people being encouraged to learn multiple languages. I think it's fantastic. However, I do believe that in the interest of unity a common language should be mandatory.

Jemison

Originally posted by Jemison
And for the poster that said we should learn Spanish, I have no problem with people being encouraged to learn multiple languages. I think it's fantastic. However, I do believe that in the interest of unity a common language should be mandatory.

Jemison

For what purpose and to whose benefit?

For clarity - - when exactly did CA designate English only?