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Same-sex marriage ban wins; opponents sue to block measure

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posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by wayno
... And there is also diversity too. Diversity is one of the most powerful things in nature that keeps the ball rolling (eg. biodiversity).


Yes Biodiversity is a wonderful thing, it allows some members of a species to normally pass on their genes to the next generation and makes a genetic dead-end of others.


Before you get mad, remember what you wrote.


Originally posted by wayno
... It is diverse and complex and that is the way it should be. That is OK. That is the way God made it, if you will.



Originally posted by wayno
I understand that people who are straight don't want to constantly hear about the woes of people who are gay. Just stop trying to trample on us and you won't be hearing from us. If you keep putting us down and trying to hurt us we will speak up, cry out or do whatever it takes until you stop.
We never try and tell you what you can or can't do, but you feel its your right to do so to us. It isn't.
So just stop.


In other words, let YOU run the world and it will be a wonderful place ... for homosexuals.

Yes, we are tired of constantly having "I'M GAY" shoved in our faces in the streets, the work place, out shopping, everywhere we go there is some moron, especially in L.A., announcing to the world that they are homosexual and now belong to a 'special club'. What's wrong with you people, did you never hear of the word Discretion? I witnessed a guy stand up in the middle of a college class, interrupting it to declare to everyone there that he was 'gay'. Like we are all supposed to run up and congratulate him and give a merry bum humping for the road? Like I said earlier, Shut up!

As others have remarked, you all sound like whiney, pathetic little children who threaten to hold their breathe until they die if they can't have their way. Stop your pathetic arguments and let the legal community run it's course on the issue.


Originally posted by wayno
or do whatever it takes until you stop.

You should really think about angering the majority of the population, what you said is a two-way street, and some laws can be put back on the books that will hit the homosexual community really hard.




posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by 2stepsfromtop
 


It's called wanting to be treated as an equal. Minorities have to be vocal otherwise they don't get heard. You have the benefit of belonging to the majority - you will be heard.

I guess those uppity blacks in the 50s and 60s should have kept their mouths quiet too, and just gone to the back of the bus.

Social injustices will always be brought to the attention of the masses. Want discretion? Let gay people do what they want to do. That's it. Once that happens, you won't hear another peep out of gay people.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 02:45 PM
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Wow, still going on... amazing... well, here again, I have to toss in my 2 cents worth... maybe someday I can be 'normal' enough to keep my big mouth shut...


reply to post by knows_but_doesnt

6) The final, and the biggie-

Please stop bashing God and/or religion over your cause. While some believe this is THE issue, it is not.

Thank you. Despite my being a devout Christian, I don't think I have yet mentioned religion once in this thread. the reason is simple: This is not a church issue.

This is an issue concerning equality and legality. The USA is a specifically stated secular nation, and despite there being no definitive Constitutional charge against a state in that respect, none of the states have seen fit to specify an official religious bent (which I am very glad of). The problem is that humans are inherently spiritual beings, despite their religious beliefs. Even atheists often have some belief that there is more to life than what science has proven in the physical realm. So there is no way to remove spirituality from society; instead, what we have done is to allow spirituality to be expressed openly and individually, without restriction by the governing bodies.

No, I'm not getting off topic here, just hang on to your flames for a moment. They'll still be burning when I'm done; there's plenty of fuel in this subject.


There are therefore no laws describing what a religion may do in the furtherance of their beliefs, outside of not passing laws to prohibit or force others to observe their religion. The Mormons have not done so. they have (apparently) used their moneys to present their positions on this vote, just as any person or entity, religious or secular, has the right to do. Now, if anyone has any evidence that any church (or any organization for that matter) has attempted to directly purchase votes or somehow skew the results of the election through bribery or tampering, then we have a whole different situation and the vote may be thrown out legally for that reason.

Whoops, there's sopme more fuel for the issue... shut up redneck!


So far I have not seen any such allegations even. I have heard several about how the Mormon Church of Utah spent money for advertising; how is that illegal or even immoral? It's exercising a Constitutional right (the one about freedom of speech), which is the exact thing that this debate is stated to be about.

This is one reason people are suspicious of the movement, and therefore one reason the proposition passed. When one claims discrimination, and in the process of pressing their agenda on this basis, embraces discrimination against another, people tend to see such as a reason to deny said agenda. So much for our society being mindless, I'd say.


Now this thread has been pretty gentle as compared to others when it comes to religious issues. yet still there have been quite a few opponents of Prop 8 who have brought up religion as some sort of 'unfair reason' the proposition passed. Conversely, those who have posted in favor of letting things lie have either denied any such religious agenda, shown evidence that there was similar advertising on both sides, or ignored such allegations altogether.

There have been exceptions of course. My congratulations go to rapinbatsisaltherage for her continued refusal to allow religious allegations to control this discussion. But others have tried to make this a religious argument, and their allegations are apparently going directly against their declared intentions. How many people have stated here that they voted for the proposition because of the fervor that occurred after the last vote? I have seen several.

OK, that's all I have for now. Atten-HUT!

Present TORCHES!

FLAME!


TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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Its hitlers germany ALL OVER AGAIN . The same criminals are pulling strings behind the scenes to create an angry 'moral majoirty ' .

And as usual the christians , ignoring all jesus remonstrations to 'judge not lest ye be judged' are jumping on the bandwagon because the pillars of society have pulled the economic rug from under their feet.

You people need to wake up and see how your religious prejudice allows you to be played 'in jesus name' .

Where is jesus for all those of you who are loosing your homes and jobs ? Where is your god when you really need him ?

I'll tell you .He is in the corridors of power using your ignorance and fear to advance his new world order . Your god is the devil and still you cannot see it.

Like the thread starter Dr moreau so rightly points out ,this vote was a cyncial attempt to polarise hate and prejudice in a country that is rapidly heading in to terminal decline . They need to blame someone , the gays fit the bill.

But the worst predators and sexual abusers are the churches and governement . And now they are projecting their guilt on the innocent .

How many votes were bought at the booths ? , how many votes were pulled out of thin air ?

America will do what Germany did , default on her unpayable debts then stage manage another terrorist event so she can justify a global war .

you will not win this war . Your first attempt at using Georgia as a proxy gov to invade and commit gencocide in south osetia was very quickly put down by a third force you have no knowledge of yet . but put down you were . Your oil pipe lines are cut and you will not get them back .

Why do you think Obama looks so shell shocked after his first intelligence briefing ?

This thread documents very well and how easily religious peoples prejudice is used to foment war and loss of freedom.

But when YOU are cast out on the street and forced to live in a tent you may well ask why your god abandoned you in your hour of need . And you may have to share that tent city with gays, down and outs, blacks and hispanics . Little food ,little shelter and no real protection except for each other . Then perhaps you will see why jesus encouraged you to love one another regardeless of race sex and creed.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by 2stepsfromtop
 


I do not witness these massive amounts of people shouting this out? Maybe it depends on where you live?


So if a black person shouted out that they want to be treated as equal this would be so wrong?

Why get angry cause of this?

Sometimes it can be annoying if it interrupts you from what you need to do, but until you have experienced discrimination many times and have people hate you because you are just being you...its hard to judge?



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by reconpilot

you will not win this war . Your first attempt at using Georgia as a proxy gov to invade and commit gencocide in south osetia was very quickly put down by a third force you have no knowledge of yet . but put down you were . Your oil pipe lines are cut and you will not get them back .

What are you going on about? When did the US (or California) invade Georgia? When did either attempt to commit genocide? That was Russia that invaded, and apparently they aren't interested in genocide, because there have been few casualties in the takeover (the last I heard, anyway).

We import very little oil from Russia, and I would hazard none through that pipeline. Are you getting us confused with Europe?


As to the rest of your post, it simply acknowledges everything I just said above. Thank you for emphasizing my point.


TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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I just want to set the record straight on my position. My religious beliefs have nothing to do with my support of Prop 8.

Jemison



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:44 PM
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Post removed in compliance with the Terms and Conditions

Specifically:


1 e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership at The Above Network, LLC site(s) for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not post, use the chat feature or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.


[edit on 11/10/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:49 PM
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Prop 8 - did you vote yes?


I sure did. And I watched your video and I agree with what they said. I am as opposed to divorce as I am am opposed to gay marriage.



Jemison



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by reconpilot

you will not win this war . Your first attempt at using Georgia as a proxy gov to invade and commit gencocide in south osetia was very quickly put down by a third force you have no knowledge of yet . but put down you were . Your oil pipe lines are cut and you will not get them back .

What are you going on about? When did the US (or California) invade Georgia? When did either attempt to commit genocide? That was Russia that invaded, and apparently they aren't interested in genocide, because there have been few casualties in the takeover (the last I heard, anyway).

We import very little oil from Russia, and I would hazard none through that pipeline. Are you getting us confused with Europe?


As to the rest of your post, it simply acknowledges everything I just said above. Thank you for emphasizing my point.


TheRedneck


No you dont get much oil from that region , but you would like to and thats the reason why your gov covertly supported the georgian invasion .

Your problem is this .Your country is in decline. Its loosing its crushing grip on the worlds oil reserves ,so its using terrorism as a cover to destabilise soveriegn nations .

To maintain momentum abroad you have to polarise opinion at home .
Its called propaganda , demonising the enemy . lets blame the gays then set off a nuke to get the ball rolling again . United you may stand again , for a while perhaps.....

There are rumours flying around in military circles about an unstoppable para military with weapons capability far beyond anything they have ever seen before . Thats why the patriot act muzzles all returning US service personel so completely.

It stopped the georgian invasion of south ossetia in its tracks .

And it will go on doing so , just like we did last time fascism threatened the free world. You country is rapidly descending in to a fascist dictatorship .
You constitution IS DEAD . AND DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW IT .



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Prop 8 - did you vote yes?

*Snip* Removed per Terms and Conditions


That is a great video.
Thank you for sharing. It bring me back to my argument of where do you draw the line? Don’t’ agree with gay marriage, but should you really make laws against other people doing something that does not lawfully affect you? I also oppose 8 because I fear this mentality that if something makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, even if it doesn’t lawfully affect you, it should be put to a vote and that vote is somehow constitutional. I don’t care if you don’t consider marriage a right and only think of it as a privilege, that is a very scary mentality. Gay marriage doesn’t lawfully affect you, if you can make a make an amendment against it despite this fact then imagine what else can be passed? People say this isn’t about religion, but many churches gave money to support Prop 8, no, it was not illegal for them to do so but imagine what else they can get passed by endorsing this mentality with millions? If marriage is not a right that should be protected and given to all consenting adults who wish to wed then who is to say they will not exclude another group of people from marriage using the same argument? Or force their other beliefs on people using this mentality? Would people consider that constitutional just because it is put to a vote?

[edit on 11/10/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by Jemison



Prop 8 - did you vote yes?


I sure did. And I watched your video and I agree with what they said. I am as opposed to divorce as I am am opposed to gay marriage.



Jemison


Civil rights will prevail.

Hopefully without bloodshed from either side.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by Jemison
 


So you're homophobic just cause? Because someone is diff than what fits in your fairy tale world?



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:26 PM
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Does anyone else think the psychological implications of this debate our VERY interesting?

I think there is something very interesting about the mentality of controlling other people and their private matters.

Is it because some people think they will some how be "infected" with homosexuality?

It does kind of give some credit to the homophobes are closet homos idea.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by reconpilot

OK, I get your drift now. I also can't really argue against you on most of your points. I am very aware of the atrocities that the US Executive Branch is involved in perpetuating, and very aware of the idiocy the Legislative and Judicial Branches are engaged in.

But this:

To maintain momentum abroad you have to polarise opinion at home .
Its called propaganda , demonising the enemy . lets blame the gays then set off a nuke to get the ball rolling again . United you may stand again , for a while perhaps.....
is where I can't follow you. What possible purpose can this amendment accomplish that would assist in international conquest? It just doesn't fit together in my mind. I suppose it would serve to divide the people, yes, but that has already been accomplished very well in many other areas. White vs. black, poor vs. rich, Republican vs. Democrat...


You constitution IS DEAD . AND DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW IT .

Possibly. But we (I anyway) will defend it as much as I can, for as long as I can. Would that you felt obliged to do the same, rather than allow the things you seem so terrified of. And anyway, isn't this topic a bit off-topic for this thread?

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by Jezus
 


I agree, I don’t think all people opposing Prop 8 are hateful or homophobic. However people often project the hate they feel towards something inside them onto others or an issue like gay marriage. I knew a boy in elementary school who was the biggest bully of the “fags”, we went to separate middle schools, we ended up going to school together after my first year of high school. Guess what? By then this former bully was gay, and proud, and loud about it. I was pretty shocked. A lot of people that spend so much time on an issue that doesn’t directly affect them unless they want it to remind me of this bully. You also see this with anti-gay political figures and with anti-gay ministers a lot. I’m happy a feared, fifth grade bully grew up and out of his insecurities before he graduated from high school, but sadly with many this is not the case, instead their self-hatred, or self-doubt festers very unhealthily and is targeted at others.



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 



BTW, like your signature...almost can define this topic...we have to learn to accept things that are not hurting anyone; ex: two consenting adults


Probably certain sexually behaviors may be more dangerous than gay couples...


Its all in someones character, nothing to do if they are hetero or not..



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 




People are afraid of the unknown are like those kids...they are SO SO against it because it hits right home for them and they cant cope w/ the realities of it...and in the end..it doesnt matter



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 






Would people consider that constitutional just because it is put to a vote?


The constitution grants us all the right to persue happiness but last time I checked, in our persuit of happiness we are required to remain within the boundaries of laws, rules, regulations, etc. regardless of how we may personally feel about them. If my idea of happiness was running through the streets naked I wouldn't be protected by the constitution if I was caught streaking down Wilshire Blvd to get my jollies, would I? Nor would I be protected even though being without clothes is 'natural' and the way we all came into the world. Heck, even if it wasn't to get my jollies and I was so poor I couldn't afford anything to cover my body I would still be arrested if I was naked in public.

In the spirit of respect and fairness, let me point out that my discussion has never been about the constitution and in all honesty I have never examined this issue from that stand. While I fully admit that I will not change my mind on believing marriage should remain between a man and a woman, I AM willing to examine the issue from a constitutional position. I will look into the arguements surrounding the consitutionality of Prop 8 and will remain open minded so that I can make a determination on if it is within the constitution or in violation of. Does that sound fair and acceptable?

Jemison



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
A lot of people that spend so much time on an issue that doesn’t directly affect them


EXACTLY.

I think their is something inherently bizarre about those that fight AGAINST the rights of other people that won't impact them.

I hate to say this but lets look at the civil rights movement. People fought against stopping segregation. However, once segregation stopped it really did have a direct impact on society as a whole. It would effect people who fought against it.

However, this debate is in a totally different realm.

Gay people obviously already live together, they just don't get the legal benefits of marriage.

WHY? Would one be so against these benefits?

What makes a person WANT another person NOT to have benefits?



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