Anti Masons please read this!

reply to post by Appak


i also find it very interesting you get all your masonic "facts" from masonic-endorsed publications. that's like McDonald's writing a book trying to tell you their food's not only not bad for you, but saying it's actually healthy! how can i trust masonic publications and articles if i can't trust masons to begin with?

Originally posted by adrenochrome
and you're probably right about the "rogue" freemasons. i'm sure they exist, because, well, why not? it's more than possible!

Absolutely. Evil people are everywhere and some bad people are able to do a lot of bad because they APPEAR to be nice. One of the biggest crooks I ever knew was also one of the friendliest people I knew. That's how he "roped people in" - They thought he was genuine.

as for the P.O. Box analogy, you're either missing the point, or purposefully taking it out of context to make me sound crazy.

No. I wouldn't do that. I genuinely didn't understand the analogy. Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

it'd be a perfect distraction/deviation for fooling others into thinking that you're something you're not.

OK. I get it.

i'm not saying you're a bad freemason, and i'm sure you're well-informed, but isn't it possible you're not told some things? it's just like the compartmentalization of the (at least) 28 levels of Top Secret - each level entirely unaware of the other levels' agendas. i hear the president is only level 17, no more, no less... after all, it is a "society with secrets". you're saying you know them ALL???

I do see what you're saying, I guess my problem with the whole thing is that those who have agendas, could (in some instances) BE Freemasons, but it's not FREEMASONRY that is bad, just those individuals who happen to BE Masons. See what I mean?

If a man from New Jersey who was a Mechanical Engineer and a member of the Presbyterian Church hijacked a train and murdered all the little girls on it, would it make all New Jersians (if that's even a word!) all Mechanical Engineers or all Presbyterians hijackers or murders?

Of course not. And I know that's not what you're saying either. But my point is, that although there are bad men who are Freemasons, Freemasonry isn't bad, hence Freemasonry isn't WHY they're bad. The fact that they're Freemasons has nothing to do with the matter.

Sorry. I'm rambling. I think I need one of those spirits we were talking about earlier.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
i also find it very interesting you get all your masonic "facts" from masonic-endorsed publications. that's like McDonald's writing a book trying to tell you their food's not only not bad for you, but saying it's actually healthy! how can i trust masonic publications and articles if i can't trust masons to begin with?

Well, can you trust Appak? Moreso than Masonic published books and papers, he speaks of his own decades of personal experience as a Mason. Now, entirely up to as to what value you give that. Personally, I'm more inclined to believe someone who has first-hand knowledge of one set of "facts" than someone else who can offer no primary sources, but instead repeats common falsehoods.

Note, I'm not accusing you of such. Just that there's a long history of Masonic detractors who tend to end up quoting each other, even after stuff has been debunked.

reply to post by Appak


maybe i could have worded some posts better, but even i think that the founding ideas surrounding freemasonry are good too! otherwise, i wouldn't have gone down to the local lodge to inquire about joining 5 months ago! it's just that a few bad apples DO give it a bad name. i despise ANYONE who not only abuses power, but also uses it to deceive others.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
reply to post by Appak

 

i also find it very interesting you get all your masonic "facts" from masonic-endorsed publications. that's like McDonald's writing a book trying to tell you their food's not only not bad for you, but saying it's actually healthy! how can i trust masonic publications and articles if i can't trust masons to begin with?

Who would know more about Masonry than Masons? Sure non-Masons can learn about it, but even they (if they want factual information) can ONLY rely on Masonic information, right?


That's why all the wild speculation and silly accusations sound fantastic on the Anti-Masonic sites (and other media) but how factual can they be when they're written by no one who's ever even been inside a Masonic Lodge building?

What makes your "facts" more factual than those written by those who have actually EXPERIENCED Freemasonry?

I've eaten at McDonalds a TON of times (not as much now that the kids are grown) but I'd pale as an expert on McDonalds in comparison to a 25-year Manager with the McDonald's Corporation, don't you think?

Guys and gals,
This is about as fruitless as trying to convince Mormons that they are a part of a cult or trying to convince a battered wife to leave her abusive husband. They will defend to the end!!!
Have you ever known someone that had a partner that was being unfaithful?
Have you ever tried to tell that person? If that person WAS your friend they probly aren't anymore. "We" (humans) don't like hearing things that challenge the way we view the world. "We" don't want to admit that it is possible that everything we ever thought was true is a lie. "We" have way to much time,energy,emotion,money,and pride invested to just "pull out".
It is far easier to Lie, deny, justify,and counter accuse.

Nothing will come of this discussion but hey, it is a way to kill a sunday afternoon. I need another margarita!!!

Originally posted by adrenochrome
maybe i could have worded some posts better, but even i think that the founding ideas surrounding freemasonry are good too! otherwise, i wouldn't have gone down to the local lodge to inquire about joining 5 months ago! it's just that a few bad apples DO give it a bad name. i despise ANYONE who not only abuses power, but also uses it to deceive others.

And I'm with you 100% there! The think is, those who use Freemasonry for "power" or for "abusing power" do not deserve to BE Freemasons. Either their investigating committees didn't do a good job or they lied on their applications (called a "petition"). If they are indeed using Freemasonry for nefarious purposes, they deserve no less than a Masonic trial (we do have those!) and suspension or, if it's bad enough, expulsion from the Fraternity.

reply to post by JoshNorton


well if i got all my information from the inside, then how else could i see the bigger picture, and think outside the box?

i realize that's a fairly vague question, but read it again - it makes lots of sense...

Originally posted by cbass
This is about as fruitless as trying to convince Mormons that they are a part of a cult

Well, they're not. Or at least, no moreso than members of any other organized religion...

First of all, I don't belive I'm responding to his, but I have no choice as this arguement is just ludacris......

Originally posted by adrenochrome
"my neighbor pointed out an interesting theory of his last night...
he says that Freemasonry is just a front for the evil men do. "

[My neighbor also says that are as well. That is a ridiculous statement unless you have evidence and or fact to back it up.]

"those in the lower ranks, and most in the high ranks too, have NO clue to what's really going on up top."

[This has been covered in nauseum. Master Mason (3rd Degree) is the highest level of masonry. Period. While you can gain some advanced understanding of the rights by joining appendant organizations, they are voluntary and all you have to do is petition to join. IE, the Scottish Rite, that confers the 4th - 32nd degree in one day. How deep and involved can that be? What could you possibly learn in one day? If only college and grad school were that easy...."

"he made a reference to stopping in one state and opening up a P.O. Box for your mail, and just keeping on driving and moving into another state, so no one can track you."

[His point, and your arguement are completely lost on me.]

"he really doesn't think the Freemasons have a secret, incredible agenda that they're performing."

[Your enlightened and apparently misguided friend has all the knowledge he needs with that statement.]

"he just believes that those in real power use the Freemason organization as a front to hide their real issues."

[Since it is forbidden to speak of politics or religion in our lodge(s) and in my case, there is no alcohol consumption so the 3 evils of man are pretty much covered, what could the agenda be? ]

"i wouldn't doubt if the Bilderberg's, FOR EXAMPLE, are purposefully hiding all ties to Freemasonry, so no one can connect the two."

[Ok, you have us here. My fellow brothers here at ATS are going to be jealous.... It must be my lodge that has some tie with them. We have steak, shrimp and VERY nice meals before our meetings. It therefore must be the Bilderbergers, since the rest of my masonic brothers tend to do pot luck or simpler meals cooked at the lodge. We being fortunate enough to be catered routinely, must be more priviledged. Or, it's the $20 we cough up before the dinner...... Your choice.]

"do the Freemasons in here think that what my neighbor and i, for the most part, believe is at all possible? i mean i knew what he was saying, and i kind of already figured that, but i didn't word it as well as he did. by the way, he's got many Freemasons in his family, and i've got many Shriners in mine.

"

[Let's sum it up then. You and your neighbor seem to have the hook up. If your family and his are going to control the world, you should be in a pretty good place. Lucky You. Please send a U2U when you come to power or become priviledged so I can throw the sign to your relatives and partake of the bounty.]

........Really now, please tell me that your post was a joke...........

Originally posted by adrenochrome
[well if i got all my information from the inside, then how else could i see the bigger picture, and think outside the box?

i realize that's a fairly vague question, but read it again - it makes lots of sense...

No reason you need to get ALL your information from the inside. Just know what your sources of information, inside or outside, ARE and weigh those sources accordingly to come to your own conclusions. And that's actually a really big part of Masonry... using your own brain to come to your own conclusions that are right for YOUR life. It's no mistake that many of the founding fathers in the American Revolution were Freemasons; they didn't think the status quo was right and they thought outside the box to change things. (I mean, come on... Boston Tea Party? Gotta admit that was pretty creative...)

Originally posted by cbass
Guys and gals,
This is about as fruitless as trying to convince Mormons that they are a part of a cult or trying to convince a battered wife to leave her abusive husband. They will defend to the end!!!

Oh, so because we're actual Masons with actual Masonic experience we're obviously liars and because those who claim we're evil read it on a web-site, they're telling the truth?

I see. You're right. Case dismissed. Back to Lucifer all you hell-bound Masons! Onto some other "cause" all you who know all.

Nothing will come of this discussion but hey, it is a way to kill a sunday afternoon. I need another margarita!!!

Honestly, that's what I've been thinking all along

Frozen or Rocks? (I prefer frozen with LOTS of salt!!!!)

reply to post by FrankieBnz


i actually thought you were joking... i don't see how someone can be so ignorant, but then again, i'm not surprised one bit... i'm just a truth-seeker, sir, and i kinda like to hear ALL sides of the story. not just all the good points from one single side, like some masons choose to hear... it would also help if you read this whole thread, sir.

Originally posted by Appak
Frozen or Rocks? (I prefer frozen with LOTS of salt!!!!)

Starred and flagged. We'll see how much of my city is shut down once Gustav's course is more determined. Otherwise, it's going to be finding a generator to run the blender...

Originally posted by adrenochrome
well if i got all my information from the inside, then how else could i see the bigger picture, and think outside the box?
i realize that's a fairly vague question, but read it again - it makes lots of sense...

But that's not the problem. ALL your information is coming from OUTSIDE the box. I can see it BOTH ways, because I can sit outside and look IN, but I've got a membership card (several of 'em actually) and can go inside and look around as well.

When you look at the various websites for the various groups and they shop pictures of the Right Eminent Grand so-and-so, and the Most Illustrious Brother whats-his-head, well, those titles are somewhat self-aggrandizing, but I generally call those guys "Bob" or "Mike" or whatever. They're just guys like you and me. In recent years one of my States Grand Masters was a Baptist Minister. Two years before that the Grand Master was a Forest Ranger. Truly. Just regular folks having an enjoyable time with the history and traditions of our fraternity.

Besides, I've always contended that Freemasons are supposed to be THINKING people. So, why would we want to control the world? Hell, who'd WANT it?

[However, we're talking about a Fraternity here and not a cult or a religion. Freemasonry is a fraternity; one I've proudly been a part of for many years.]
I truly believe thats what you believe ..and if you really dont think there is anything sinister about it ..I still would ask ..isnt all that frat stuff supposed to be put behind you once you get out of college I have never heard of college kids continuing with the frat stuff after college .. (even the word says this about stuff like frat clubs etc)
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(not saying your a child ..just that is seems a little childish to be into that at your age lol)

[I've also proudly been a proud Christian for many years. But that has nothing to do with my Fraternity, because it is not a religion.]

I believe that you believe that ...I am just not sure I agree ..the word says no other Gods before me ..avoid any appearances of evil ...(which you do not believe there is any evil in it so I will say to you ...I pray that if there is you will see it and not go with it ...and get out)

[See what I mean? Interpretation is up to you and what YOU intend it. ]

Yes I do see your point and point well taken ...

[Oh, I would never do that. I have a hard enough time remember what all they stand for in the first place without making unauthorized random changes.]

Hehe I know you wouldnt do that .......was just an example ..

[Well, little sister, of course I would try to help you look out for your own good.]

I know you would and really and truly after talking to you now for a few days I would trust you at your word and listen to you if you did ....Mason or not ...I would trust you just because your posts shows who you are as an individual.
And what I see I do believe you are good inside and someone worth knowing as a friend ..

Originally posted by JoshNorton
No reason you need to get ALL your information from the inside. Just know what your sources of information, inside or outside, ARE and weigh those sources accordingly to come to your own conclusions. And that's actually a really big part of Masonry... using your own brain to come to your own conclusions that are right for YOUR life...

what in the world do you take me for, some child? you stated EXACTLY how it should be done - the way of truth-seeking i've been trying to get people to harness this whole time - hear all sides of the story, and use the brain God gave you to come up with the most logical, sensible conclusions.

does anyone disagree?



EDIT: i'll be in chat tonight if anyone would like to talk!

[edit on 31-8-2008 by adrenochrome]

On a lighter note ...How do you like my new avatar ?
LoneGunMan was kind enough to make it for me ..I am so thankful I have a few friends here like him and yall ...

Hey all here is a really good site to investigate Ancient Texts,Symbols,Books or whatever ..Historical records of all kinds for this very subject ..
www.cs.utk.edu...

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Yes and my point is that I didnt know that at all until I got the Internet and did look into it. It was not hard to find .And I quit celebrating them >
I actually deem everyday as the Lords day so holidays dont really matter to me anyway .I make them a family day instead of holiday persay with the tree etc ..

I am glad that you did research on this, many neglect to perform thier own examination of topics.

Ok so it was just an example I was using that flag because you know what stood for then ..but if Appak told you hey we changed its meaning and now it means something other than it did ..Would you still do it >?

Being that the Swastika has been co-opted as a symbol of national Socialism does this negate its previous symbology and the intent that it conveyed to those who used it before?

My point is that I can not, somehow, be 'deceived' into inadvertently worshipping something or someone that I do not wish.

If, in my Masonic journey I come to the point were a another Mason comes to me and says, "You know that when you thought the Three Steps were emblematical of human life? Well guess what? They really meant you worship Jabulon!" My simple response would be that they still remind me to aspire to a be a better man/Mason/nieghbor/citizen and your meaning holds no value in my estimation.


[edit on 31-8-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]