Obama suggests reparations to blacks, Native Americans

Originally posted by rocknroll

Originally posted by Quazga
Look, I never said anything about what whites owe black folk. I said something about what AMERICA owes the descendants of African Slaves.

Then please, do tell us, what would make the black man happy?
Does he want money? Does he want respect? Does he want free food and groceries for life? An endless unemployment check?

Tell us.........what reparation can we come up with that will satisfy the black man's dilemma for good? So he can never complain again......

What is it?????

See thats the issue. I don't think you can actually put an arbitrary price on it. I think we should just go back to the original deal.

40 acres and a method of plowing.

Let's start there. That was the original deal. Let's just make good on that.

Originally posted by jetxnet

I said something about what AMERICA owes the descendants of African Slaves

The debt for slavery has been more than paid off Quazga. A little thing called the American Civil War that cost over 400,000 White Americans their lives over freeing the slaves.

Our generation today doesn't owe Black decendents of the slaves anything .. that is utterly rediculous. These decendents are not their ancestors and did not have to suffer slavery. They just want to benefit financially from it.

First off if you think the civil war was about the inhumanity of slavery you are very mistaken.

It wa sabout economics and what method would rule in the westward expansion. The Northern company owners wanted wage earners because it met their need.

The Agrarian Southerners wanted slave labor, because that's what they knew, and they couldn't compete with the Northern wage earners.

Now.. what happened after the Civil war?

Jim Crow laws which stuck with us until the 1960s!

I don't know about you, but that includes my generation. So don't act like it was some distant past. It was as late as 1969 that Blacks could not LEGALLY stay in a hotel which wasn't designated for Blacks. We are not talking about the way southerners treated people. This is not like walking through a "bad part of town"...

This was the AMERICAN LAW! Don't you see that?

No, I guess you don't. You are a griefer.. and nothing more.

Why should Black descendents of the Slaves benefit financially from the past Quazga?? I really want to know. It is not they who suffered. The American Civil war spilled the blood of over tens of thousands dead Americans to defeat slavery.

Originally posted by Quazga
reply to post by Dronetek

 

Look, I never said anything about what whites owe black folk. I said something about what AMERICA owes the descendants of African Slaves.


Can you not tell the difference?

Are you so ignorant as to equate America paying reparations with White folk giving handouts to Black folk?


And as for all life originating in Africa.. that's not common knowledge. That is a theory which is challenged quite often. There are many theories. That one just happens to be the most accepted currently.

Most of the races are equated with geograhical areas due to gene pools which developed in all of these areas. So even if all humanity originated in Africa, that didn't seem to figure in to the equation when Europeans were only dealing with African Slaves.



And.. You should know that you are now on Ignore, because you have shown your stupidity. First you accused me of being black and hating whites. Then when I said I was white, you said "Oh thats obvious"

You are obviously not only ignorant of history but a trollish moron...

Ignore.
[edit on 1-8-2008 by Quazga]

[edit on 1-8-2008 by Quazga]

I'm simply making the case that it is you who is concerned about skin color, origin and culture.

I just judge people by their character.

accused me of being black

I never did any such thing.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by Dronetek]

I don't know about you, but that includes my generation. So don't act like it was some distant past. It was as late as 1969 that Blacks could not LEGALLY stay in a hotel which wasn't designated for Blacks. We are not talking about the way southerners treated people. This is not like walking through a "bad part of town"...

Who is the "Griefer" dear??? You are the one talking about giving money to Black decendents for no grief of their own, but that of their ancestors.

We moved past 1969?? Haven't you noticed? The only ones making race an issue now are people like you! In 1969 could there be Oprahs or rich Rap stars? Nope. Black have it every bit as good now and don't need payment for suffering of their ancestors. It wasn't they who suffered, get it?? I doubt you do.


[edit on 1-8-2008 by jetxnet]

Originally posted by jetxnet
Why should Black descendents of the Slaves benefit financially from the past Quazga?? I really want to know. It is not they who suffered. The American Civil war spilled the blood of over tens of thousands dead Americans to defeat slavery.

Because we never made good on the original promise of 40 acres and a mule. I'm not talking about benefiting. I'm talking about making good on a promise that America made.

Is it not important for you to make good on the promisies you make?

The civil war was not a war to defeat slavery. I already told you this. It was an economic war. It was a war to decide what method of labor would rule in westward expansion. The north had more power with the wage earner model and the South just didn't have the population of LEGAL PERSONS to support that.

The civil war was not fought to end slavery.

We moved past 1969?? Haven't you noticed? The only ones making race an issue now are people like you! In 1969 could there be Oprahs or rich Rap stars? Nope. Black have it every bit as good now and don't need payment for suffering of their ancestors. It wasn't they who suffered, get it?? I doubt you do.

We've moved past 1969? So let's say your Father suffered under Jim Crow Laws. Do you think HE has moved past it?

This isn't about how good people have it today. It is about a promise that was not kept.

Do you think that I can legally get away with owing you something even though you got it great? If I owe you something, the court doesnt look at how much you already have... they look at what I owe you. And if I promised it to you , then I will owe it to you.

If you can't see the slightest bit of understanding then I have to ignore you to,

Silly troll discussions are for the intelligent.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by Quazga]

reply to post by Quazga


Where do I even start, lol. I will try to debate this rather than just throw out an unsubstantiated opinion..

First of all you call me out on my verbage. My verbage was "work as slaves" you corrected me to say "lived as slaves". I think the main word here is slaves. Here is the def for slave : One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household. So I believe to work or live as a slave is the same thing. Next when I state that their culture and homeland was not obliterated you touted back with something about "Black Christians. Well lets take a look at religion in Africa. Jewish Africans have been around since Babylon burned Jerusalem to the ground, also in the bible I believe Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Africa when they were hiding from Herod. I'm not sure what your reasoning for stating we made blacks into Christians but I think its meaningless.

Second I stated "that is the most ridiculous idea I have ever heard. I will not be liable for something one of my ancestor may or may not have been a part of" speaking out on reparations you came back equating the Iraq war with my statement. I was speaking of someone in the past, that would be like me going 200 years in the future and making your great great grandchild go to jail for the Iraq war. That's a little on the crazy side huh, I think that's enough said.

Third, I stated blacks can still go back to Africa and find their heritage, you came back at me with
"Are you crazy? Do you realize how many different cultures there are in Africa? The only African Americans who have any idea where they came from (because the slave masters made sure they couldn't read or pass down culture.. that's right.. go watch roots)"
I know for a fact there are hundreds of DNA research groups going on which will help locate exactly where your relatives are from. Most Africans that want to take the time to research their heritage can find the general area they came from bases on their DNA markers especially the markers left by the female markers. If you don't believe me then you can visit this site.
www.isteve.com...
And if by chance your ancestors are not there, then pls don't blame the white American man.

Fourth. Which is very disturbing to me is the fact that you think I have to justify slavery. I don't care, I was not a part of it, my ancestors where treated as unfairly as yours. Once again I will say that thru a horrible crime committed by intolerable people blacks where forced into slavery but thru that very act it gave their descendants a wonderful opportunity, the opportunity to be a part of the American Way. Which also gives you a way in which you can make sure the suffering of black slaves can always be remembered and revered for there efforts. But by saying I'm justifying is like calling someone a racist because you cant find a way to debate what they are saying. Its low and extremely tactless.

Fifth. I don't know where you came from but did you know that Blacks even owned black slaves. My god this dissecting the issue to make fruitless points is crazy. None of my ancestors owned slaves. I have traced my families past and its brutal. Did you know that native American were sold and bought into slavery just like blacks. I am not aware of many Natives but I am aware that some Blacks owned slaves.

We cannot take the crimes of our ancestors and expect the struggling families of today to pay for those crimes. We need to forgive each other for the injustice that was committed and begin to start anew. Keeping the race issue alive is creating the racism we have today. It has become a money making business and if there is one thing that I think we offend most blacks is for anyone to take the "Slave issue" and make money on it in any way. As you can see more and more young black Americans is turning their backs on Jesse Jackson and looking for new leadership because he deals in the same old politics that has gotten no one anywhere. Its time to just honor whats in writing and go forward trying to let the scars heals instead of keeping them open.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by Quazga]

reply to post by Quazga


The Civil War did not start out as a slavery issue but by the end of the war the people had mad it an issue. That should be worth something but I guess once again, its not money in your pocket that you can spend. Putting a price on anything, lives, the hardships of slavery should be an insult to any sane person. Lives do not have a price. the price American needs to pay is to never ever let it happen again and to be able to use what has happened in the past as a learning tool.

As far as people having thier way, i think you are just as much about having it your way as anyone else on this forum is. You wont even admit that paying a price for a crime an ancestor did over 200 years ago is ridiculous. If that was the standard just imagine what someone could find in your past and come at you wanting you to pay.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by alienj]

We cannot take the crimes of our ancestors and expect the struggling families of today to pay for those crimes. We need to forgive each other for the injustice that was committed and begin to start anew. Keeping the race issue alive is creating the racism we have today.

This is exactly right and sums it up nicely. Quazga, you are talking about making good on promises that were by our ancestors because of the conditions at the time. Those promise(s) were to make life better for Black people in America. They are no longer needed because Blacks have it every bit as good as Whites do today. And again, it was not they who suffered, but our ancestors that did.

reply to post by Quazga


Your fourty acres and a mule statement nearly made me swallow my tounge.In the state of Tennessee in the days after the civil war,800,000 acres were seized from the land owners.The land was divided into fourty acre tracts,and given to the deserving black folks who in turn sold the land to carpet baggers for an average of 50 cents an acre.However there are still three families that live within 8 miles from me that still hold their "granted" farms.
Before you start saying that fourty acres and a way to plow it would be a good place to start.Maybe you should do some research.There was reparations made to the former slaves during reconstruction!

I must say that the overall tone of most of these posts is appalling. I for one don't agree with reparations for anyone and never will. Those who deserved reparations are long gone and no one who is alive today deserves to benefit from what their ancestors MAY have gone through.

I would also like to point out that the first slaves in the US were not from Africa. They were white and from England, Ireland, etc. "Indentured servitude" is just a pretty word for white slave. So if you want to be technical about it descendants of the white slaves deserve reparations before descendants of African slaves do.

Forgotten Slaves
The indentured servants who served a tidy little period of 4 to 7 years polishing the master's silver and china and then taking their place in colonial high society, were a minuscule fraction of the great unsung hundreds of thousands of White slaves who were worked to death in this country from the early l7th century onward.

Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too.

Whites were auctioned on the block with children sold and separated from their parents and wives sold and separated from their husbands. Free Black property owners strutted the streets of northern and southern American cities while White slaves were worked to death in the sugar mills of Barbados and Jamaica and the plantations of Virginia.

The Establishment has created the misnomer of "indentured servitude" to explain away and minimize the fact of White slavery. But bound Whites in early America called themselves slaves. Nine-tenths of the White slavery in America was conducted without indentures of any kind but according to the so-called "custom of the country," as it was known, which was lifetime slavery administered by the White slave merchants themselves.

In George Sandys laws for Virginia, Whites were enslaved "forever." The service of Whites bound to Berkeley's Hundred was deemed "perpetual." These accounts have been policed out of the much touted "standard reference works" such as Abbott Emerson Smith's laughable whitewash, Colonists in Bondage.

I even did the hard work for anyone interested in learning more by running a google search for white slaves in early america. Unfortunately this won't matter to those who are dead set on believing that Africans were the only ones enslaved here in the U.S.

Like I said, I don't agree with reparations for anyone regardless of skin color. And it disgusts me that we, as a country, can't move on when it comes to racism. Slavery was wrong, everyone knows it. It's not a new idea. I refuse to be held accountable for something my ancestors didn't do and actually were victims of. When are we, as a country, going to grow up and quit whining that Bob down the street has more than me and blaming it on skin color, when maybe Bob had to work his tail off to get where he is and never had a handout or any benefits whatsoever just for being a certain race.

You may now begin the flaming.

reply to post by Jenna


I have given you a star! If this information won't shut them up nothing will.Every culture has been in bondage to another culture at some point in history.

Lets not beat a dead horse unless we have new and realative information to point out. thanks guys

Ummm EXCUSE ME!!!!

My ancestors participated in the underground railroad. We like to have our expenses reimbursed for transportation, housing and feeding of slaves.



Perhaps I shall stir the pot a bit more.

MORE IRISH SLAVES lay dead at the bottom of Florida swamps than black slaves were brought in to this country.

Reparations...nah they don't whine cry or complain...maybe they just prefer a 12 pack of Guinness.

Or how about the Chinese slaves whose corpses litter the transatlantic railroad?

Nah...no complaints from them...

So why oh why does the Black community whine and cry when they are the minority when it comes to slavery atrocities?

deed's as in deed's to house's....

if he start's this racist bs..we own them something done 100 year's ago....
and not by me or my grandparents...and aspect's my tax's to pay it ..he can kiss my white arse...

give them a deed.....deed to my foot that will go up there butt's to get off the foodstamp's...is all they will get from me.

I think you guys should read my post on the 2nd page. The first Africans to work on American soil were NOT slaves. Most were free and some were obligated to a contract for violating certain laws. Africans owned plantations in America. People are so divided that they can't believe that the 'new world idea' didnt originate from the North. Everyone contributed to the Americas. This is proof that our history has been obliterated because most you apparently dont know that. I will repeat it over and over again free Africans sailed the carribean just like England, and Spain it was part of an agreement. Egypt even sailed and landed on America and went up the worlds longest river. They even taught Native Americans heiroglyphics. Go to the library or 'google' it, however you people do it now days. Another interesting fact you should know, The American Natives were targeted by roosevelt or hoover. They would label the 'dark complected' or american natives that may have descended from Africa, 'breeders' or 'workers'. They would deliberately cut them out from the pictures and of course from history. The helicopter Black Hawk is from an American-African-Native tribe.....
Look up Chief WinterHawk and Circular Thought.
Funny asians created and bought fubu, african americans just marketed it. Leave your computer and realize what is really going on.

Look the whole deal is that we don't owe them anything. We don't even owe them an apology. African Americans that are alive today were not slaves. They should just give it up already. We as a country should be focusing our efforts at more important issues. Such as Nukes in Iran and their cousins in Africa that are starving to death and dieing of AIDS. The money and time they spend on getting an apology would be better spent in their ancestors home country. America is America because of the different cultures and races to begin with. They should be proud to be called an American instead of an African American. They put that label on themselves. Obama shouldn't have even brought this issue up period during this election. Let's move onward toward the future instead of dwelling in the past. That is pretty much all I have to say.

Originally posted by Quazga
Because we never made good on the original promise of 40 acres and a mule. I'm not talking about benefiting. I'm talking about making good on a promise that America made.

Is it not important for you to make good on the promisies you make?

That's never going to happen. Maybe back then 40 acres was nothing (based on population back then). But in today's real estate market there's no way the USA is gonna give all the blacks in this country 40 acres a piece. Based upon your sheer numbers we'd basically have to give the whole country to the blacks. Which is laughable. Hilarious, actually.

So what you are saying is you personally want 40 acres and a mule?
I'm white and make just about $50G a year and have yet to live anywhere but an apartment. I have no use for 40 acres and a mule. Honestly, I can't afford a house or acreage. I'm not complaining. Nobody owes me anything. My future is up to me.

If I was black and I lived in a white man's land, I'd do everything in my power to get away from it and live solely among my black brethren. Have you ever thought of moving to the Bahamas, Haiti, Africa or any other of the black nations in the world? That's right, those countries are all screwed up. Black countries, black rulers, black people. And it's not America. Hmmmmm....makes you wonder.

Quazga, I'd be willing to bet if we gave you your 40 acres and a mule, you'd still have something to gripe about........"I want more reparations, these aren't good enough. My land is covered with poison ivy, and my mule needs a barn and food." And it goes on and on and on.......

[edit on 1-8-2008 by rocknroll]

[edit on 1-8-2008 by rocknroll]