144000

Originally posted by doctorex
How does that call them seperate groups? would you not call 144,000 people a great multitude?

The verse you are quoting seems to be talking about angels in heaven, since.....

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

alright, be reasonable here, why would the book mention one group, mention others, and then mention the first group again?

the simple language shows that they are 2 separate groups

It doesn't, you only think it does. When talking about the first great multitude, it is at the exact same time it is talking about the 144,000. They are one and the same. The next time you are mentioning, it is many chapters latter, and talking about angels in heaven.

Here is another verse and slant that I didn't see mentioned yet.

My earlier post.

There is a multitude that no man can number, of every tribe, nation and tongue. Out of those. 144,000 were Jews. Jew's that were still alive at Christ second coming. After the great tribulation, wrath, and battle of Armageddon. Just a semi-educated guess.

Then. Describing the end time too His disciples, Jesus said, "He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved." Mark 10:13
So (possibly) some Jews who aren't saved or raptured. Will endure through everything, having been sealed for protection. To see Jesus invade earth, with all His saints, at the battle of Armageddon. They will
finally receive and believe in Christ as their savior then.
The secular world had already made their mind up and joined the Devil.
This is just speculation on my part.

Originally posted by doctorex
It doesn't, you only think it does. When talking about the first great multitude, it is at the exact same time it is talking about the 144,000. They are one and the same. The next time you are mentioning, it is many chapters latter, and talking about angels in heaven.

yes they are mentioned to together in the same chapter, but not at the same time, your overlooking simple english

[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

he describes the 144,000. AFTER THIS he sees the great multitude.

so according to you, john sees the 144,000 and them being counted, then after, he sees the 144,000 , and suddenly they are uncountable.

it makes no sense.

The JW believe they will be the 144,000 as did the Worldwide Church of God (WCG). The WCG even had membership numbers not far off from the prophecys number at one time. But for any church denomination to fit this prophecy would of course require ignoring that it speaks literally about a collection of scattered tribes of Israel, gathered at the end times.
In contrast to what I am saying is to resist the temptation to go this route of interpretation.
The common practice of interpreting plain passages to mean something different from what they say amounts to breaking scripture, unless the passage clearly states or requires it to be interpreted that way, such as Jesus' own parables did. Jesus stated that no Scripture can be broken or contradicted (John 10:35) and Revelations 7 is not presented as a parable, however impossible it may seem, we must endeaver to make sense of its plain meaning.
This passage can make perfect sense when taken literally and give us insight into Gods plan to bring his servants together in unity before the great tribulation.
In fact instead of a pre-tribulation rapture, this gathering to safety on earth is the real plan of how God will save his servants through those 3 and half years.
To see it all just requires bringing all related passages together and thinking them through critically and carefully with care not to read anything into them.
There is the 'other' 144,000 of revelation 14, people often wonder if this 144,000 is not somehow a second group different from the 144,000 in chapter 7.
As you study further it will be apparent that only one group of 144,000 rather than two, can fulfill the prophecies that require 144,000 firstfruits sent on thier special mission in the end times.
Read Revelation 14:1-6.
While chapter 7 told us that the 144,000 sealed servants of God are made up of 100% descendants of all 12 tribes of Israel, it did not tell us anything more about where they are or what purpose they are sealed.. Now care must be taken not to assume that if winds are held back over the entire earth that it means the 144,000 must be everywhere at the time of the sealing. That is not what it says. Instead, remember that a single angel rising from the east seals the 144,000-not the four angels over the four corners of the earth. This points to them already being gathered somewhere at the time of their sealing where one angel can easily seal them (remember, angels are not omnipresent like God and cannot be everywhere at once such as we see from the angel held up from reaching Daniel for 3 weeks - Daniel 10:12-13.
In contrast to this, when the rapture or gathering to heaven happens "after the tribulation of those days," God sends multiple angels to gather his 'elect' (defined as "the Church", not "Jews") elsewhere - 1 Peter 1:1-2; Col 3:12; Tit 1:1 because they are spread all over the earth (Mark 13:24,27).
Concidentally chapter 14 shows us that 144,000 will all be together on Mount Zion in Jerusalem at some point.
Unfortunately Revelation 14 is generally understood to be picturing the arrival of the Messiah to set up his kingdom an unfortunately this interpretation has problems:
The Messiah is not returning with just the 144,000 he sealed alive in end times, but all servants of God that died in faith and were Ressurected at his return as Revelation 19 shows:
His return in Rev 19 is also shown to be with saints in air against armies on the ground, rather than 144,000 saints standing on the ground with the lamb:
Rev 14:4 gives us shrouded but explicit indication as to what day this gathering is taking place on, and it is not the same day that Revelation 19 indicates will be the day the Messiah returns to reign (the day of atonement).
The mission of the 144,000 is found in Mathew 24:14
Much of the book of Revelation requires us to look in other parts of the bible for answers. Revelation 7 and 14 leave gaps that require us to look elsewhere.
AA

Originally posted by miriam0566
yes they are mentioned to together in the same chapter, but not at the same time, your overlooking simple english

[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

he describes the 144,000. AFTER THIS he sees the great multitude.

so according to you, john sees the 144,000 and them being counted, then after, he sees the 144,000 , and suddenly they are uncountable.

it makes no sense.

You are reading what you want to into what is written. John does not see the 144,000 at first, he HEARS their number and it is talking about the sealing, then it says he see a great multide. Read it....

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Read through it many times if you have to. John talks about HEARING their number and about the sealing, then straight away afterwards he talks about SEEING them. I don't know how else to say it to try and get this point across, just read what it says, without any preconceived idea in your head.

Jesus sacrificed himself for all people, so don't sweat the 144000. It's interesting as far as academic interpretation, but as far as being saved, all you have to do is accept it.

Originally posted by ancient arrow
In contrast to what I am saying is to resist the temptation to go this route of interpretation.
The common practice of interpreting plain passages to mean something different from what they say amounts to breaking scripture, unless the passage clearly states or requires it to be interpreted that way, such as Jesus' own parables did. Jesus stated that no Scripture can be broken or contradicted (John 10:35) and Revelations 7 is not presented as a parable, however impossible it may seem, we must endeaver to make sense of its plain meaning.

very well put together information. but there is a problem.

revelations, by its very form is like a ¨parable.¨ certain elements are literal and certain elements are figurative. the reason why is because it is describing heaven.

to show you what i mean. satan is commonly refered to as a 7 headed dragon. does that mean he is a literal dragon? what do we know about satan, we know he was once a servant of god, we know he was once a powerful angel. all evidence points to a satan that wouldnt look much different from other angels (literally) but we have to remember, that we are talking about the spirit realm, im sure existance is much different there. so john is now given a vision, be he is human, how do you describe to a human what a spirit creature looks like?

so how do you figure out the symbolisms? you cross reference.

most of whats in revelation can be deduced by reading other references throughout the bible.

Originally posted by doctorex
Read through it many times if you have to. John talks about HEARING their number and about the sealing, then straight away afterwards he talks about SEEING them. I don't know how else to say it to try and get this point across, just read what it says, without any preconceived idea in your head.

which is fine, if you just ignore that nasty little contradiction where it says the multitude is innumerable.

the 144,000 are also mentioned later specifically as the 144,000

the great multitude is also mentioned later as innumerable.

they are 2 separate groups.

even later in the scripture it mentions the different groups like a roll call. (which wouldnt even make sense if they are the same group)

simply put it makes more sense that the scripture is talking about 2 separate groups.

if you believe the dogma of the church that says everyone good goes to heaven, then i can see why this concept would be threatening

so how do you figure out the symbolisms? you cross reference.

most of whats in revelation can be deduced by reading other references throughout the bible.

Originally posted by ancient arrow

so how do you figure out the symbolisms? you cross reference.

most of whats in revelation can be deduced by reading other references throughout the bible.

Read "Book of Daniel" and "Book of Ezekiel" in the OT and you basically have Book of Revelations.. if John did that today he would face a massive court case and christianity would be dead.

Obviously, relying on dreams,visions and testimonies to interpret the Bible is bad not only because it relegates plain scripture to the back seat, but also because it puts much more questionable sources in the front seat.
I think this practise is common among Christians because we all want to believe that God is leading us to truth in a supernatural way. Although we may have had valid experiences like this, in the end, the literal reading of scripture is still the final authority and if you skip checking every idea against plain scripture because you blindly trust God is directly speaking to you, then you may regret it.
It may become obvious later that you did not give due diligence to "take heed no man decieve you." "Prove all things" and "test every spirit"as we are sternly warned by Jesus, the Proverbs and by the Apostle Paul, respectivly. Following these instructions is necessary to have discernment we will need to escape the"strong delusion" from the Antichrist.
Assuming these teachers are all well-meaning good christians, why would such unrlable aproaches be used?
It is exactly because they are good traditional Christians that they are used!
In the specific case of allegorical interpretation, it is an early Church tradition.
The allegorical approach arose out of a need to reconcile Biblical teaching to Greek Gnosticism as theChurch was coming under criticism and persecution from Greek Philosiphers.
You've no doubt heard homage paid to the "Church Fathers" and what they believed in defense of todays orthordox Christian Doctorine.
The Church fathers Clement and Origen advocated allegorical interpretation two hundred years after Christ taught literal interpretation- and the Church has not been able to completely shake its negative influence ever since, especially in the fied of eschatology (the study of end times).
And if that is how you've come over time to percieve Bible prophecy, it is hard for you to see it any other way. Help is needed to recognise one psychological barriers and courage is needed to cross over to them and be different. nevertheless, for the few who do correctly apply this first key of literal interpretations, they usually still come to incorrect conclusions because they do not know or follow the next key for unlocking the Bibles pophetic roadmap.
AA

Originally posted by miriam0566

which is fine, if you just ignore that nasty little contradiction where it says the multitude is innumerable.

This is not a contradiction. Read it, it doesn't say that John numbers/counts the 144,000, he HEARS (I really don't know how many times I have to emphasise that) their number, and it doesn't say they were unnumerable, it says there were so many before him that no man could count them, and no man could look on upon 144,000 and count them, but John HEARD their number before hand

Originally posted by miriam0566

the great multitude is also mentioned later as innumerable.

You are simply assuming that this great multitude is the same great multitude at the sealing of the 144,000. It is a descriptive term of a great number, it is used many times in scripture, referring to many different groups....

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Matthew 15:33 And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?

Matthew 20:29 And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him.

Matthew 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strewed them in the way.

Matthew 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

Mark 3:7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judea,

Mark 3:8 And from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.

Mark 4:1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

Mark 8:1 In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,

Mark 9:14 And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.

Mark 14:43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.

Luke 5:6 And when they had this done, they enclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net broke.

Luke 6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;

Luke 8:37 Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

John 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

the "great multitude" is not the name of a group, it is simply a descriptive term.

Originally posted by miriam0566

simply put it makes more sense that the scripture is talking about 2 separate groups.

And why would this make more sense?

Originally posted by miriam0566
if you believe the dogma of the church that says everyone good goes to heaven, then i can see why this concept would be threatening

I believe nothing of the sort. The Bible says that when man dies, he returns to dust. At the end of this age there is a resurrection. These willl reign with Christ, but not in heaven....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Reign where?

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

At the end of 1000 years will be the second resurrection, where those remaining are resurrected, and then the great judgement. People misconstrue verses to say that man goes to heaven. Why would God create an infinite universe, use only one tiny planet, and then shuttle everyone off to heaven? Christ is coming back here, not to take everyone to heaven, but to bring his kingdom.


[edit on 10/5/08 by doctorex]

After Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers His church there will be 144,000 Jews left on earth to witness for Jesus. These 144,000 Jews are from the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob). 12,000 members from each tribe. They will be on earth during the 7-year tribulation period to gather souls to Christ.

Originally posted by Ragdollcat
After Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers His church there will be 144,000 Jews left on earth to witness for Jesus. These 144,000 Jews are from the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob). 12,000 members from each tribe. They will be on earth during the 7-year tribulation period to gather souls to Christ.

The 12 tribes of Israel are not all Jews, you are thinking of only one tribe, the tribe of Judah, and some of the tribe of Levi who remained with them.
Israel split into two kingdoms, the northen 10 tribes were then known as Israel, while the tribe of Judah in the south became the Kingdom of Judah. The first time the word Jews is mentioned in the Bible, it talks about them being at war with Israel and Syria...

2KINGS 16:5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him .
6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drove the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

The 10 northern tribes, Israel, were later taken into captivity by the assyrians and dispersed amongst the nations, and lost their identity. The jews are those of Judah who kept their identity, even through the babylonian captivity, and their return to the land of Judah, where they were during the time of Christ. The 12 tribes of Israel are not all Jews. People see the curent nation of Israel, where the jews are, and confuse that with Israel of the Old testament.

the 144,000:

are comprised of 12 seperate groups of people(s)

and this miniscule number do not have the mark-of-the-beast
which the other 6+ Billion people do have.
the object is to show how vast & diverse are 'those-in-Christ'
& at the same time show how this small group who could be crushed by the overwhelming majority...defy all odds and continue to thrive.




the "vision" John had in Revelation lays the parameters for
a Christians worldview...
the 'documentary' vision is either a preview of future events
or the prophetic vision is the storyboard outline for a self fufilling play/opera

reply to post by 12.21.12


Not sure if this relevant, but I acquired a large white stone (weighed somewhere between 5-10 lbs) that was discovered when an old house was torn down. It was a PURE opaque white, quartz stone that had been used as one of the stones in the foundation, and it the only quartz stone used in the foundation.

The surface of the stone was relatively smooth like it had been somewhat polished as a river rock. I assumed it was used in the foundation, but its possible that the bulldozer just dug it up and wasn't from the foundation at all.

For some reason I felt compelled to break the stone apart one night, and after several hard blows with a 10 lb. sledge hammer (it gave off sparks each time I hit it) it finally broke in half. I got the 'feeling' that it gave off some sort of 'energy pulse' when it broke. It took some really good solid whacks before it finally broke apart.

Anyway, I still have the pieces packed away somewhere...

Now then, I'm CURIOUS why you ask - "I'm just curious if anyone here has recieved a white stone or thinks that they have."

Originally posted by 12.21.12
I'm just curious if anyone here has recieved a white stone or thinks that they have.

This is the post I just responded to earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
I'm just curious if anyone here has recieved a white stone or thinks that they have.

You got to be kidding me. For one thing your changing the subject of this thread. For another thing you took one sentence out and did what.

Come on you know that goes with a church. There is seven churches that got written letters to at the time to talk to them about what is wrong.

Revelation 2

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Before I answer this I will quote one very important scripture.

John 4:24 "God is a spirit. They who worship him MUST worship him with spirit and truth."

And so understanding the truth of this matter is very important, from God's perspective.

First it must be stated that God created millions of angels before the history of the world began, he does not need billions more or new angels or he would have created them from the beginning. He also doesn't need to call killed little three year olds to heaven to serve by his throne, this is a falsehood, designed to create comfort by a clergy that doesn't understand the bible or God's purpose for this earth or humanity.

The 144,000 is a literal number that began to be gathered after Jesus death, these are some very special people, for sure the faithful apostles, also some are former Jews in the first century, then it expanded to include the Samaritans, eventually it included Gentiles like the Roman Cornelius.
Many first century faithful christians would be included in this number.
However as Jesus fortold a great apostasy arose after all the apostles died, and it seems less would be of that number during the dark ages, but God knows those that tried there best with what truth they had through those difficult years.

Research indcates that the 144,000 began to be filled up once again in the late 19th century and early 20th century. However God can keep as many spots "open" as he likes.

Many will ask if only 144,000 are going to heaven what happens to me?
A common question and numerous scriptures answer that.

We have 2 catagories those that have already died and those that will, and those that are present on the earth when Jesus takes back control of this planet which God told him to rule for a thousand years.

If he is ruling the planet people must be on it, to rule over. They are survivors of the end times and newly resurrected ones, literly billions that are sleeping from Jesus perspective in death right now.

The 144,000 will rule with Christ in a theocratic government from heaven and bless the earth, after they have aybssed Satan and his demons and removed the wicked, not sending them to hell, but causing them to go into non-existance with a permenant death.

And so I am glad that justice will be served to those did evils like 9/11, irregardless of what happens to myself, God's justice will finally catch up to evil people in this world, and they will not escape it this time.

See John 5:28&29, Psalm 37:29, Isaiah 11:6-9, Revelation 21:3&4,
Ecclesiastes 9:1-10, 2 Peter 3:13. Revelation 14:1, Psalm 37: 10&11