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Originally posted by doctorex
This is not a contradiction. Read it, it doesn't say that John numbers/counts the 144,000, he HEARS (I really don't know how many times I have to emphasise that) their number, and it doesn't say they were unnumerable, it says there were so many before him that no man could count them, and no man could look on upon 144,000 and count them, but John HEARD their number before hand
And why would this make more sense?
I believe nothing of the sort. The Bible says that when man dies, he returns to dust. At the end of this age there is a resurrection. These willl reign with Christ, but not in heaven....
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Reign where?
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Originally posted by RexxCrow
That is strange, I wonder if this has anything to do with how they configured the ranges for modems, i.e.:
...(doubling now begins as a whole number)
1.2 bps
2.4 bps
4.8 bps
9.6 bps
(doubling interrupted)
14,400 bps
28.8 bps
...(doubling stops after 28.8)
[edit on 10-5-2008 by RexxCrow]
Originally posted by miriam0566
it is a contradiction. if someone says to you, hey there are 15,000 people in that stadium over there. and someone then asks you hey how many people are in there? your going to reply there is a great innumerable multitude?
Originally posted by miriam0566
you are taking a simple passage and you are trying to cram 2 parts together. problem is, i cant even figure out why you are doing it.
Originally posted by miriam0566
the only reason i can think of is that you dont agree that 144,000 is a literal number. that somehow it should be more.
And why would this make more sense?
because who is a king to rule over if he doesnt have subjects?
because Isaiah 65 talks about people about people living in a paradise.
because jesus is in heaven (how can they rule with him if they will be on earth
Originally posted by miriam0566
because jesus talked about having 2 flocks
Originally posted by miriam0566
because jesus said he was preparing a place in heaven for them (john 14:2,3)
Originally posted by miriam0566
because god´s original purpose for man was to live on earth
because rev 21:1-4 refers to god being with MAN (after armaggedon)
Originally posted by miriam0566
why are 2 groups, one going to heaven to rule as kings and the other being on earth so hard for you to see?
Originally posted by miriam0566
problem is, your wrong. i normally dont make statements like that, i understand why your thinking the way you are.
rev 14 : [1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
mount Sion can be speculated to be spiritual, but im quoting this scripture so you see that they are with christ.
Originally posted by miriam0566
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
this music is coming FROM heaven
Originally posted by doctorex
No, that is a completely different situation. Nobody asks John how many people were before him. You're presenting an example situation that is different from what actually happens in this passage to suit your own view. And he doesn't say they were innumerable, he says there was a great multitude that no man could count. IF 144,000 people stood before you, do you think you would be able to count them by simply looking at them? Of course not, that is why John describes them as such.
Originally posted by miriam0566
the only reason i can think of is that you dont agree that 144,000 is a literal number. that somehow it should be more.
When did I say the 144,000 is not a literal number?
Who said he doesn't have subjects? Jesus is coming back to earth to bring his kingdom, this is the paradise it talks about. Read the prophecy of Daniel talking about the statue representing the kingdoms of the world. What happens to this statue?
Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Jesus is talking about how his work will allow us to be cleansed of sin, allowing God to dwell in us through his spirit.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Yes, but notice that God comes down from heaven, to where? Earth.
Well, mainly because it says they rule on earth....
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The greek word for heaven doesn't always mean the heaven of heavens, it also means the sky, or simply the atmosphere. Also the next verses in revelation when talking about being "before" the throne etc. the greek word actually means "in view of". What happens to those resurrected at the return of Christ? They rise up into the sky to meet him (1Thessalonians 4:17) And before you say, no, Christ is "standing on" mount zion, look into those greek words.
Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus doesnt literally have to be on earth to rule. wasnt GOD ruler back in adam and eve´s time? was he literally on earth to rule them? read the book of job, did GOD need to come to earth to set things straight? no he was in heaven. when jesus was resurrected where did he go? to heaven.
there is nothing about being in heaven that limits him, in fact its the perfect place to rule from. in fact if everyone served jesus on earth, and jesus was in heaven ruling, how would that conflict with the scripture daniel.
filling the whole earth could simply mean that everyone recognizes jesus as king
Originally posted by miriam0566
Yes, but notice that God comes down from heaven, to where? Earth.
Originally posted by miriam0566
in this case it HAS to be speaking figuratively, even the description of new jerusalem wouldnt make sense in physical form. giant square city made of gold and jewel with giant pearls for doors.
chapter 4, john was brought to heaven and shrone the throne of GOD. it too was made of jems and was radiant. its not a physical throne, its a spiritual one
21:[25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
again, pointing to the gorly of the city, figurative.
Originally posted by miriam0566
The greek word for heaven doesn't always mean the heaven of heavens, it also means the sky, or simply the atmosphere. Also the next verses in revelation when talking about being "before" the throne etc. the greek word actually means "in view of". What happens to those resurrected at the return of Christ? They rise up into the sky to meet him (1Thessalonians 4:17) And before you say, no, Christ is "standing on" mount zion, look into those greek words.
im familiar with the greek words. your right and your wrong. the greek word of heaven can mean both heaven heaven and sky or atmoshpere heaven.
in this case, using the sky form of the word here doesnt not match the context. it only serves to make things more confusing. now jesus and the 144,000 are going to rule while floating in the sky? how is that much different from ruling from heaven?
Originally posted by miriam0566
i do enjoy this debate, its forced me to read revelation more which i usually shy from. thank you for the oppurtunity
Originally posted by miriam0566
im quoting the entire chapter so you can see something
rev 7
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
......
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
first is the obvious separation ¨After this¨ in verse 9. then there is contrasting language.
Originally posted by miriam0566
144,000 are counted(vs4), the GM no man could number (vs9).
Originally posted by miriam0566
144,000 are from ¨Isreal¨(vs4), the GM are from all nations, kindreds, and people, and togues(vs9). (even though its talking about spiritual isreal, its clear the GM is not part of spiritual isreal)
Originally posted by miriam0566
then there are comparisons to other parts of revelation.
chapter 7:15 - 17 (talking about GM) god will dwell amoung them (other translations render be with them), hunger no more, thirst no more, no more heat, fed by lamb, lead to living fountains waters, god wipes all thier tears
Originally posted by miriam0566
chapter 21:3 -4 (which we know is talking about earthly subjects) god will dwell with them (other translations render, be with them) god wipes tears, no death or sorrow or pain.
verse six talks about fountains of water of life, similiar to verse 17 of chapter 7.
22:[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
the river comes from the throne in order to heal the nations. the 144,000 are not the nations, they are spiritual isreal. however, the GM waits for these waters, they are the nations (people)
Originally posted by miriam0566
i hate to say this but, the more i read this, the more i disagree with you.
Originally posted by VIKINGANT
I know this is an age old question and I have recived many answers from mant religions now I ask the elite. Who are the 144000 and what does it mean?
According to JWs that is the total number who will get into heaven. Does this mean I shouldn't bother since more than that has already passed or is it like a lottery and I should try harder? Or is the number symbolic and I still have a good chance?
Originally posted by miriam0566
Originally posted by Shar
Also remember this is DURING THE TRIBULATION PERIOD! Has nothing to do with the Gentiles or those who have already died. Only the Jews!
then where are the tribes of Dan and Ephraim? if it was refering to literal jews, wouldnt it include the 2 tribes?
As in other passages, the specific descriptions of those in the heavenly chorus are figurative, rather than literal. In describing the 144,000 as "chaste," John calls on two images. The first is that of warriors who always prepared for battle by abstaining from sex (see 1 Samuel 21:5, for example). The second is the dominant image in the rest of Revelation of the church as the pure and holy bride of Christ. Paul also uses this second image in 2 Corinthians 11:2, where he mentions the church as a "chaste virgin" presented to Christ.