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posted on May, 10 2008 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by peopleunit
 


Just to clear up any confusion. I had a dream about this, I was just wondering if there were others with similiar experiences.




posted on May, 10 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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That is strange, I wonder if this has anything to do with how they configured the ranges for modems, i.e.:

...(doubling now begins as a whole number)
1.2 bps
2.4 bps
4.8 bps
9.6 bps
(doubling interrupted)
14,400 bps
28.8 bps
...(doubling stops after 28.8)

[edit on 10-5-2008 by RexxCrow]



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by doctorex
This is not a contradiction. Read it, it doesn't say that John numbers/counts the 144,000, he HEARS (I really don't know how many times I have to emphasise that) their number, and it doesn't say they were unnumerable, it says there were so many before him that no man could count them, and no man could look on upon 144,000 and count them, but John HEARD their number before hand


it is a contradiction. if someone says to you, hey there are 15,000 people in that stadium over there. and someone then asks you hey how many people are in there? your going to reply there is a great innumerable multitude?

you are taking a simple passage and you are trying to cram 2 parts together. problem is, i cant even figure out why you are doing it.

the only reason i can think of is that you dont agree that 144,000 is a literal number. that somehow it should be more.


And why would this make more sense?


because who is a king to rule over if he doesnt have subjects?
because Isaiah 65 talks about people about people living in a paradise.
because jesus is in heaven (how can they rule with him if they will be on earth
because jesus talked about having 2 flocks
because jesus said he was preparing a place in heaven for them (john 14:2,3)
because god´s original purpose for man was to live on earth
because rev 21:1-4 refers to god being with MAN (after armaggedon)

why are 2 groups, one going to heaven to rule as kings and the other being on earth so hard for you to see?



I believe nothing of the sort. The Bible says that when man dies, he returns to dust. At the end of this age there is a resurrection. These willl reign with Christ, but not in heaven....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Reign where?

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.


problem is, your wrong. i normally dont make statements like that, i understand why your thinking the way you are.

rev 14 : [1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

mount Sion can be speculated to be spiritual, but im quoting this scripture so you see that they are with christ.

[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

this music is coming FROM heaven

[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth. singing in heaven

[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

FROM amoung men

[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

BEFORE the throne.

you are right about so many things. people that die are dead. there is a ressurection, jesus will rule as king. but the fact that the elders are in heaven before the throne shows that the ruling will be from heaven. why would jesus, resurrected to immortality as a spirit, acting as high priest in god´s spiritial temple need to come to earth to rule?

the great multitude that make it through the tribulation are earthly (i suspect you agree) they are the same ones mentioned at 21 when it says GOD is with men.

when the 144,000 are chosen and sealed and who is included is a wholenother discussion.



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by RexxCrow
That is strange, I wonder if this has anything to do with how they configured the ranges for modems, i.e.:

...(doubling now begins as a whole number)
1.2 bps
2.4 bps
4.8 bps
9.6 bps
(doubling interrupted)
14,400 bps
28.8 bps
...(doubling stops after 28.8)

[edit on 10-5-2008 by RexxCrow]


your about 129,600 off....



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
it is a contradiction. if someone says to you, hey there are 15,000 people in that stadium over there. and someone then asks you hey how many people are in there? your going to reply there is a great innumerable multitude?


No, that is a completely different situation. Nobody asks John how many people were before him. You're presenting an example situation that is different from what actually happens in this passage to suit your own view. And he doesn't say they were innumerable, he says there was a great multitude that no man could count. IF 144,000 people stood before you, do you think you would be able to count them by simply looking at them? Of course not, that is why John describes them as such.


Originally posted by miriam0566
you are taking a simple passage and you are trying to cram 2 parts together. problem is, i cant even figure out why you are doing it.


I'm not craming anything together, it is John who links them within the same passage. He is talking about hearing the number of them who were sealed, then he says, "after this I beheld", because now he is not only hearing how many where to be sealed, he is actually looking at them, and describing what he sees. I am not trying to cram them together, you are trying to split them apart.


Originally posted by miriam0566
the only reason i can think of is that you dont agree that 144,000 is a literal number. that somehow it should be more.


When did I say the 144,000 is not a literal number?




And why would this make more sense?


because who is a king to rule over if he doesnt have subjects?
because Isaiah 65 talks about people about people living in a paradise.
because jesus is in heaven (how can they rule with him if they will be on earth


Who said he doesn't have subjects? Jesus is coming back to earth to bring his kingdom, this is the paradise it talks about. Read the prophecy of Daniel talking about the statue representing the kingdoms of the world. What happens to this statue?

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The kingdoms of the worrld are replaced by the kingdom of God that fills the whole earth. Christ's kingdom is on Earth, just as it says in Rev 11:15 ("The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever")


Originally posted by miriam0566
because jesus talked about having 2 flocks

Jesus was with the Jews at this time, I will explain this in a seperate post


Originally posted by miriam0566
because jesus said he was preparing a place in heaven for them (john 14:2,3)


Read those verses in the greek, it is not talking about "mansions" in heaven, the word means abode, just as it is translated further on in the chapter which describes what Jesus is talking about....

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jesus is talking about how his work will allow us to be cleansed of sin, allowing God to dwell in us through his spirit.


Originally posted by miriam0566
because god´s original purpose for man was to live on earth
because rev 21:1-4 refers to god being with MAN (after armaggedon)


2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Yes, but notice that God comes down from heaven, to where? Earth.


Originally posted by miriam0566
why are 2 groups, one going to heaven to rule as kings and the other being on earth so hard for you to see?


Well, mainly because it says they rule on earth....

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Originally posted by miriam0566
problem is, your wrong. i normally dont make statements like that, i understand why your thinking the way you are.

rev 14 : [1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

mount Sion can be speculated to be spiritual, but im quoting this scripture so you see that they are with christ.


The problem is you are forgetting that Christ is returning to Earth, this is where Mt Zion is.


Originally posted by miriam0566
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

this music is coming FROM heaven


The greek word for heaven doesn't always mean the heaven of heavens, it also means the sky, or simply the atmosphere. Also the next verses in revelation when talking about being "before" the throne etc. the greek word actually means "in view of". What happens to those resurrected at the return of Christ? They rise up into the sky to meet him (1Thessalonians 4:17) And before you say, no, Christ is "standing on" mount zion, look into those greek words.

[edit on 11/5/08 by doctorex]



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 02:43 AM
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About the 2 flocks:

When Jesus said he had others that were not of this fold, he was with Israelites,

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

notice he says that these two will be mad one flock. Now notice what Paul says.....

EPHESIANS 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

These are the two flocks, the Israelites, and the Gentiles, which are now one flock.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by doctorex
No, that is a completely different situation. Nobody asks John how many people were before him. You're presenting an example situation that is different from what actually happens in this passage to suit your own view. And he doesn't say they were innumerable, he says there was a great multitude that no man could count. IF 144,000 people stood before you, do you think you would be able to count them by simply looking at them? Of course not, that is why John describes them as such.


im quoting the entire chapter so you can see something

rev 7

[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

first is the obvious separation ¨After this¨ in verse 9. then there is contrasting language.

144,000 are counted(vs4), the GM no man could number (vs9).

144,000 are from ¨Isreal¨(vs4), the GM are from all nations, kindreds, and people, and togues(vs9). (even though its talking about spiritual isreal, its clear the GM is not part of spiritual isreal)

then there are comparisons to other parts of revelation.

chapter 7:15 - 17 (talking about GM) god will dwell amoung them (other translations render be with them), hunger no more, thirst no more, no more heat, fed by lamb, lead to living fountains waters, god wipes all thier tears

chapter 21:3 -4 (which we know is talking about earthly subjects) god will dwell with them (other translations render, be with them) god wipes tears, no death or sorrow or pain.

verse six talks about fountains of water of life, similiar to verse 17 of chapter 7.

22:[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

the river comes from the throne in order to heal the nations. the 144,000 are not the nations, they are spiritual isreal. however, the GM waits for these waters, they are the nations (people)

i hate to say this but, the more i read this, the more i disagree with you.



Originally posted by miriam0566
the only reason i can think of is that you dont agree that 144,000 is a literal number. that somehow it should be more.


When did I say the 144,000 is not a literal number?


never, it was a suposition not an accusation.

i find sometimes people hold on to beliefs because they FEEL that is the way it is, even if the bible says different. see the trinity thread

www.belowtopsecret.com...'



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 06:14 AM
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Who said he doesn't have subjects? Jesus is coming back to earth to bring his kingdom, this is the paradise it talks about. Read the prophecy of Daniel talking about the statue representing the kingdoms of the world. What happens to this statue?

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


jesus doesnt literally have to be on earth to rule. wasnt GOD ruler back in adam and eve´s time? was he literally on earth to rule them? read the book of job, did GOD need to come to earth to set things straight? no he was in heaven. when jesus was resurrected where did he go? to heaven.

there is nothing about being in heaven that limits him, in fact its the perfect place to rule from. in fact if everyone served jesus on earth, and jesus was in heaven ruling, how would that conflict with the scripture daniel.

filling the whole earth could simply mean that everyone recognizes jesus as king



Jesus is talking about how his work will allow us to be cleansed of sin, allowing God to dwell in us through his spirit.


good possibility, i would need to do some homework before i can make an itelligible reply


2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Yes, but notice that God comes down from heaven, to where? Earth.


Yes, but it CANT be literal.

john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

exodus 33:[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

in this case it HAS to be speaking figuratively, even the description of new jerusalem wouldnt make sense in physical form. giant square city made of gold and jewel with giant pearls for doors.

chapter 4, john was brought to heaven and shrone the throne of GOD. it too was made of jems and was radiant. its not a physical throne, its a spiritual one

21:[25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

again, pointing to the gorly of the city, figurative.

new jerusalem, 144,000, jesus, rule from heaven before GOD´s throne.


Well, mainly because it says they rule on earth....

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


archaic gramatical construction common in KJV. by today´s standards we would say reign over the earth.





The greek word for heaven doesn't always mean the heaven of heavens, it also means the sky, or simply the atmosphere. Also the next verses in revelation when talking about being "before" the throne etc. the greek word actually means "in view of". What happens to those resurrected at the return of Christ? They rise up into the sky to meet him (1Thessalonians 4:17) And before you say, no, Christ is "standing on" mount zion, look into those greek words.


im familiar with the greek words. your right and your wrong. the greek word of heaven can mean both heaven heaven and sky or atmoshpere heaven.

in this case, using the sky form of the word here doesnt not match the context. it only serves to make things more confusing. now jesus and the 144,000 are going to rule while floating in the sky? how is that much different from ruling from heaven?

-------

i do enjoy this debate, its forced me to read revelation more which i usually shy from. thank you for the oppurtunity



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus doesnt literally have to be on earth to rule. wasnt GOD ruler back in adam and eve´s time? was he literally on earth to rule them? read the book of job, did GOD need to come to earth to set things straight? no he was in heaven. when jesus was resurrected where did he go? to heaven.

there is nothing about being in heaven that limits him, in fact its the perfect place to rule from. in fact if everyone served jesus on earth, and jesus was in heaven ruling, how would that conflict with the scripture daniel.

filling the whole earth could simply mean that everyone recognizes jesus as king


I agree, being in heaven would not limit him, I'm just reading what the scriptures say and they talk over and over again of Jesus returning, his coming with all power. Why would he return, then go back to heaven? he wouldn't have to return at all. Read the parable of the Noble man...

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain noble man went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.....

Jesus, went to his father to receive his crown, and to wait at the the right hand of God, until it was his time to rule on the earth...

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

All the other verses you quoted were events when there is no kingdom of God on earth, as it will be in the future, so there I don't see a correlation.


Originally posted by miriam0566
Yes, but notice that God comes down from heaven, to where? Earth.


Yes, but it CANT be literal.

john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

exodus 33:[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.


This is after the great judgement, when all those deemed worthy are now immortal, and would be able to see God, just like the angels I guess.



Originally posted by miriam0566
in this case it HAS to be speaking figuratively, even the description of new jerusalem wouldnt make sense in physical form. giant square city made of gold and jewel with giant pearls for doors.

chapter 4, john was brought to heaven and shrone the throne of GOD. it too was made of jems and was radiant. its not a physical throne, its a spiritual one

21:[25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

again, pointing to the gorly of the city, figurative.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.


Originally posted by miriam0566


The greek word for heaven doesn't always mean the heaven of heavens, it also means the sky, or simply the atmosphere. Also the next verses in revelation when talking about being "before" the throne etc. the greek word actually means "in view of". What happens to those resurrected at the return of Christ? They rise up into the sky to meet him (1Thessalonians 4:17) And before you say, no, Christ is "standing on" mount zion, look into those greek words.


im familiar with the greek words. your right and your wrong. the greek word of heaven can mean both heaven heaven and sky or atmoshpere heaven.

in this case, using the sky form of the word here doesnt not match the context. it only serves to make things more confusing. now jesus and the 144,000 are going to rule while floating in the sky? how is that much different from ruling from heaven?


The verses describing the event does not say that this is where they rule from, it is a single event, they do not stay in this position for ever.



Originally posted by miriam0566
i do enjoy this debate, its forced me to read revelation more which i usually shy from. thank you for the oppurtunity


I must say I'm enjoying it myself.
It's quite easy to see we are both passionate, glad we've kept it civil



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

im quoting the entire chapter so you can see something

rev 7

[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

......

[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

first is the obvious separation ¨After this¨ in verse 9. then there is contrasting language.


Yes but the point I've been trying to make is that John doesn't see them at first, he hears their number and how many are being sealed, then he says "after this I beheld", he then see them, a great multitude that no man could number. "after this" does not designate a completely seperate event. If I hear of something taking place, then after this I behold, they are not two different things simply because I hear about it and after this I actually see it with my own eyes. They are still one and the same thing.


Originally posted by miriam0566
144,000 are counted(vs4), the GM no man could number (vs9).


Yes but no man does number the 144,000, John hears their number.


Originally posted by miriam0566
144,000 are from ¨Isreal¨(vs4), the GM are from all nations, kindreds, and people, and togues(vs9). (even though its talking about spiritual isreal, its clear the GM is not part of spiritual isreal)


Why not? Wouldn't spiritual Israel be made up of all different nations, tongues, and peoples of the world? I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic, or we're just going to keep going in circles and repeating ourselves.




Originally posted by miriam0566
then there are comparisons to other parts of revelation.

chapter 7:15 - 17 (talking about GM) god will dwell amoung them (other translations render be with them), hunger no more, thirst no more, no more heat, fed by lamb, lead to living fountains waters, god wipes all thier tears


We have to remember that those who take part in the first resurrection, at the return of Christ, are then given spirit bodies, and made immortal. They are given this before the rest that follow after the second resurrection.

1CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[......]
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Originally posted by miriam0566
chapter 21:3 -4 (which we know is talking about earthly subjects) god will dwell with them (other translations render, be with them) god wipes tears, no death or sorrow or pain.

verse six talks about fountains of water of life, similiar to verse 17 of chapter 7.

22:[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

the river comes from the throne in order to heal the nations. the 144,000 are not the nations, they are spiritual isreal. however, the GM waits for these waters, they are the nations (people)


These verses are describing events after the second resurrection, the great judgment, and the 1000 year reign. (chapter 20)


Originally posted by miriam0566
i hate to say this but, the more i read this, the more i disagree with you.


You have that right.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

The 144,000
The 24 elders
The 12 Tribes of Israel

Computors today use fibonacci numbers to send large files.It is the most efficient way to compress files. Like the sunflower dose with its seeds.

There is a hidden pattern within the fibonacci sequence, 24 recurring single digit numbers. Fibonacci number 12 is 144 the half way point of the cycle of 24.

These numbers and a few more have been cropping for sometime now. I dont believe in coincidence, and I dont believe in the 12 tribes of Israel. There is something more to the story. What do you think?
I have a post about the Cycle 24. Its titled "Is numerology man made or nature made"




posted on May, 11 2008 @ 10:34 PM
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WOW!
I don’t have much to add now except that I am now more confused on the issue than ever. Good works guys! I am impressed with the diversity of responses.
I think my personal inclination would be that the number would be symbolic as opposed to the literal number but on the other hand 12000 from 12 tribes at the time might have been the number of people when it was written which would have been relevant at the time. This number would be very different should it be written in todays context. As with many books of the bible they were written for the people of the time which we have adapted for our world today whether it is right or wrong.
It seems a bit simple I know but I like simple. I will however re-read the thread and try to digest all of the answers more thoroughly and see if anything changes. I am still getting my head around the frequency concept, but it is interesting.

P.S.
Ancient arrow,
Thank you for posting the JW perspective. I was hoping someone would!



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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144.000 is number thay sow using old windows 3.1 start manager and number of bytes for first program (named Ancient civilizations exe file) that was on that cd. Sound crazy but all they sow using program and pc is written by them.

Think it was some part of theyr education to bring 1990 computers into theyr time. gold plates are CD roms as u can see in pictures (first cd rom with picture print of sea on him named ancient civilisations).



[edit on 5/12/2008 by B3...]



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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miriam0566, you may.
(Can't U2U, too few posts!)



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by B3...
 


Now there is a very interesting take on the subject. Would you please expand on this and include where and how you came about this info.
Also as a challenge to you, I would like to see you incorporate this theory more into the OP.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 11:51 PM
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I would like to add some interesting twist to this topic.

One person may think that Jacob having 12 sons was just a coincidence. I think the Revelation plan was made up way before Abraham was thought of. The number 12 was destined to come and bring completion to God's plan. I hate to bring up numberology but in some cases it's unavoidable.

Look at the Most Holy chamber in the Tabernacle. It was constructed to be a perfect Cube. Even the Temple that Solomon built was designed to be a Cube. Why does God need the Most Holy chamber to be a perfect Cube?

The heavenly bodies are mostly spherical in shape and a sphere perfectly fits into a cube with respect to its dimensions. A Cube is made up with 12 lines. My guess is that God wants the 12 to help him fix what was damaged. The 12000x12=144,000

All mankind will bless themselves because of the 12.
This is not the 12 Cylon models. Five of which are from ...
(Oh! I won't say because not all are caught up yet.)



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by VIKINGANT
I know this is an age old question and I have recived many answers from mant religions now I ask the elite. Who are the 144000 and what does it mean?
According to JWs that is the total number who will get into heaven. Does this mean I shouldn't bother since more than that has already passed or is it like a lottery and I should try harder? Or is the number symbolic and I still have a good chance?


It's suposed to be the number of people whom are protected by the hand of God during the end of the world. It's these people that will have gotten it right. These people are not of a religion. The connection to God, the our father, is within you.

144K is suposed to be the number of people whom walk through "end of the world" events unharmmed. It's suposed to be through these people that in association with the christ of God that the world is reborn.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 04:55 AM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 



Not sure but seems that "meesangers" driving cars and navy helicopters, showing cd roms and having fun with "chosen" girls, left mark on hystory.

www.pphcstudygroup.org.au...

Hystory

144.000 byte

[edit on 5/13/2008 by B3...]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 05:08 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Shar
Also remember this is DURING THE TRIBULATION PERIOD! Has nothing to do with the Gentiles or those who have already died. Only the Jews!


then where are the tribes of Dan and Ephraim? if it was refering to literal jews, wouldnt it include the 2 tribes?


"only the jews" would technically mean only those from what was the nation of Judah.....what about the ten other tribes? they are part of the original Isreal, before it broke into two nations, Isreal and Judah.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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I taught the study of Revelation twice using this excellent online study www.jmbiblestudy.com...

Specifically, here in the study www.jmbiblestudy.com...




As in other passages, the specific descriptions of those in the heavenly chorus are figurative, rather than literal. In describing the 144,000 as "chaste," John calls on two images. The first is that of warriors who always prepared for battle by abstaining from sex (see 1 Samuel 21:5, for example). The second is the dominant image in the rest of Revelation of the church as the pure and holy bride of Christ. Paul also uses this second image in 2 Corinthians 11:2, where he mentions the church as a "chaste virgin" presented to Christ.


I would urge anyone curious about this book of the bible to read this study.



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