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posted on May, 9 2008 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 

i don't know what all those answers meant in laymens terms but i was told the 144,000 will be the jews that are left after the rapture that preach the word of jesus




posted on May, 9 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 




jesus talked also about having 2 flocks. (those who go to heaven, those resurrected on earth)


Miriam, here's another angle on the two flocks. Before the time of Christ the Hebrews were the only race of people that where considered, God's chosen people. After christ's dead the spreading of the gospel by the apostles opened up the word to the gentiles. This is shown in the the letter writen by Paul to the Galatians (Gal 3:28) 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus'

The two flocks spoken about is the jewish nation and the gentile believers, not those that go to heaven and those who remain on earth.

As you can tell i don't believe in heaven, have you noticed that in the scriptures you have quoted so far there is no specific reference to heaven this is your assumption and interpertation. This interpruption cames from the catholic church which has curropted the gospel


[edit on 9/5/08 by ozzieman]



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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If you know you're going to heaven then you should probably know you're going to have a task assigned to you. Do you know what that task is?

Everybody has to work. God has been working from the beginning and he hasn't stopped. If you think you're just going to sit on your cloud and play a harp then you're probably not going to heaven.

The literal temple arrangement was a symbolic representation of the things in heaven for the Elect to perform. Lighting the seven candles represented some duty. Placing the show bread represented another duty. Burning incense represented another and so on.

Not all Levitical priests peformed the temple duties at the same time. There was a rotation of the priests. Sounds like the 24 elders and the 144,000 to me.



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 10:34 PM
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Maybe this has been addressed in the previous 4 pages. But why are people talking about 144,000 made up of the tribes of Israel, but are calling them all Jews. Jews are but one tribe of Israel. That leaves, let's see, 11 other tribes. Just wondering.



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 10:38 PM
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Look... whoever says the 144,000 are the literal Jews of the remnant, ie; the pureblood Jews left in the end times .. you have read and misunderstood Revelation.

12,000 from each of the 12 tribes = 144,000

BUT! There are WAY more than 12,000 men in each of the 12 tribes. Theres 120,000 men in just ONE tribe.

On top of this .. the "12 tribes" include others. The tribe of Benjamin is the successor of Ephraim. Ephraim = Benjamin. And it was Judah and Benjamin that weren't swept to the winds, they formed the southern kingdom. They went into captivity in Babylon, they returned to Israel. The 10 tribes never returned. Until now.

You people must understand, there are no more pure blood Jews, Judaism is not a blood thing, it is a spiritual thing, a religion. Todays Israelites are Israelites by spirit; they live in all nations. The Jews of Israel are mostly of Eastern European descent. Does this mean they aren't Jews? No! Because Judaism is a RELIGION not a race.

When the 10 northern exiled tribes were swept to the winds in Assyrian exile, they were never re-constituted. What does that mean? They split .. no longer keeping tribal coherency, and no longer keeping pure blood and arranged marriages. They fled persecution and migrated north over the Black Sea and through the Caucasus Mts into Dagestan, Chechnya, and the Ukraine. The former Khazar empire. They fled there, and intermingled with the "Gentiles" there. The Khazar kingdom, massively large in its' day, entirely converted to Judaism, hence it was the only other Jewish state ever in existence. And you know what else? It was formed by successors of the 10 tribes which were swept away, though not pure of blood, these are the descendants, of "partial blood", but knowing and practicing religion. Most American "Jews" you meet with "Jewish" last names trace their line to Eastern Europe, Ashkenazi Jews.

Fact: You can't find 12,000 people from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, much less male virgins. They no longer exist in pure form. They no longer practice Judaism for one, and for two, they've mixed throughout all the nations for over 1,500 years now. Today's "Jews" are not the same literal blood that was present in Israel during the Old Testament books. They're related to them .. but also related to Germans, Austrians, Russians, Polish, etc. Find me a Jew that has a perfect blood line, and i'll show you Messiah. So this means one's "Jewness" is not measured by blood and descendant line.

So to sum it up, the "Northern Kingdom" IS modern day Israel. Israel's inhabitants are the descendants of the 10 northern tribes. Though interbred with locals during every step of their 2,000 year exile, these are the only ones that you could trace in any way shape or form back to the 10 idolatrous tribes that were taken by Assyria.

Which begs the question, what and where is the Southern Kingdom, considering where it used to stand is where Gaza and the West Bank currently stand? And are these Palestinians not descendants of Semitic peoples of the area since the dawn of time? The Palestinians are likely more "Jewish blooded" than the "Jews" living in Israel right now.

Being Jewish has nothing to do with race. It is a religion. If you are black African, and convert to Judaism, you're a bonafied Jew. If you are a Pakistani and you convert, you're a Jew. If you live in America, and your family practices Judaism, yes you are all Jews, despite having the "Race" of white man. This is because you are white essentially, from the Eastern portions of Europe where those who MIXED BLOOD with Israelites and kept their religion alive and orthodox come from. After the exile, this is where they went. And what of the Sephardic Jews, those who never left Morroco/Spain? These intermingled with the locals and are now no different in appearance than the locals .. and yet are bonafied Jews.

I think this board needs better identification of what exactly a Jew is in modern times, who is and who isnt one, how you become one, what happened to the old ones, and why most modern day Jews usually look caucasian with caucasian names, customs, and families.

"Behold, the New Jerusalem, created by rejoicing and its' people made from joy. They shall not toil in vane, for they are the blessed of the Father and their offspring with them. I will answer them, and while they are yet speaking, I will hear."

I think that sums it up .. their offspring with them?



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by kyred
Maybe this has been addressed in the previous 4 pages. But why are people talking about 144,000 made up of the tribes of Israel, but are calling them all Jews. Jews are but one tribe of Israel. That leaves, let's see, 11 other tribes. Just wondering.


Because people are terribly confused to the difference between an Israelite and a Jew. Also, they are confused as to what makes a person a Jew, and what makes a person an Israelite. Furthermore, the term is grossly misused to describe certain types of people.

But in the 21st Century, in America, a "Jew" is a practitioner of Judaism. They could be white as a ghost or black as a burnt marshmellow, they're still adherents of Judaism.



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 10:52 PM
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I'm just curious if anyone here has recieved a white stone or thinks that they have.



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

14:# [1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
# [3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, AND THE ELDERS: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth..."

why couldnt they be the same group of people?



With respect,

I added caps to your quote to make a certain point.

If the 144k and the 24 elders are in fact one and the same group, then how can this verse be explained? It seems to clearly distinguish one group from another.



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by 12.21.12
 


No offence but this is an odd 'inquiry' and I don't understand how the nature of a 'white stone' is is relevant to the topic. Anyway, I am curious but did dream of receiving a 'stone' of a color I'm not too sure about. [Oh, never mind...]




posted on May, 10 2008 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by pikypiky
 


That would be the reason for my inquiry. What did it look like?

PS Not trying to pry, just had a simlilar experience.

[edit on 10-5-2008 by 12.21.12]



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by 12.21.12
 


The object I held in my hand(s) looked heart shaped.



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by pikypiky
 


Okay, I'm still with you. Would you care to discuss on U2U, not to interfere with the discussion on a public forum?



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 01:54 AM
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reply to post by 12.21.12
 


Okay, my first U2U has been sent...



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 03:24 AM
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??? According to the jews ???

No, this is not according to orthodox judism / Torah / Books of Moses. No such number was written in the original "end of times prophecy" (which is known as "The Book of Daniel").

In any case, it is written that anyone who is not a jew, but still chooses to follow the laws and covenants of the jews, will also be judged as a jew. So you don't have to be an original jew to be judged as a jew. In practice, this means that anyone from any race or background can be a subject to this covenant.


[edit on 10-5-2008 by ravenflt]



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 05:53 AM
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The 24 elders is just an representation of the whole 144,000. We know that only one group of people are in heaven, and if both the 24 elders and the 144k have the same characteristics (the crowns, white robes etc.), we must conclude that they are one and the same. It makes sense, since in literal Israel, the elder spoke for the whole nation, they were like a council. They still were part of the people, right?
David himself assembled 24 divisions of priests that would take turns to serve in the temple;
1 Chronicles 24:1-18

It all comes down to hierarchy, God is a lover of order. 1 Corinthians 11:3.
God has delegated the kingship to Christ, like he did with the creation. In turn, Christ has delegated the ruling of all creation to the 144,000. They are all still co-rulers.



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 05:53 AM
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Originally posted by runetang
You people must understand, there are no more pure blood Jews, Judaism is not a blood thing, it is a spiritual thing, a religion. Todays Israelites are Israelites by spirit; they live in all nations. The Jews of Israel are mostly of Eastern European descent. Does this mean they aren't Jews? No! Because Judaism is a RELIGION not a race.

...........

Fact: You can't find 12,000 people from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, much less male virgins. They no longer exist in pure form. They no longer practice Judaism for one, and for two, they've mixed throughout all the nations for over 1,500 years now. Today's "Jews" are not the same literal blood that was present in Israel during the Old Testament books. They're related to them .. but also related to Germans, Austrians, Russians, Polish, etc. Find me a Jew that has a perfect blood line, and i'll show you Messiah. So this means one's "Jewness" is not measured by blood and descendant line.


very valid point. the jewish tribes arent pure... but now lets discuss your religion angle.



the illustration of the marriage feast illustrates it.
matt 22:[1] And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,[2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

marriage feast is the heavenly hope, this marriage is also mentioned in revelation.

[3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

isrealites were god´s chosen nation. the invitation was first extended to them (in this case you are correct)

[4] Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.[5] But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:[6] And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

the jews did not recieve the invitation kindly. they called for jesus´ death and even killed many early christians. paul (saul at the time) was one of them. even though some jews individually accepted the invitation, as a whole they rejected it.

[7] But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

God and jesus both prophecied the destruction of jerusalem and of jewish worship. it was furfilled in 70 a.d.

[8] Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.[9] Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.[10] So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

the heveanly calling was then offered to the gentiles


verse 2 he blantently is talking about the kingdom in heaven. the first group that was invited is rejected. isreal was that first group.

they were rejected religiously too becuase they rejected christ.

what about the pebble people are talking about

rev 2:[17] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

white pebbles where used in those times for judgement. specifically in terms of comdenation and aquital. if you recieved a white pebble, it ment you were aquitted. (deadpan touched alittle on this)



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex

The great multitude described by John are the 144,000. Notice it says that no man could number them (which means count them), but of the 144,000 John doesn't count them, he hears their number, before he sees them.


that makes no sense.

there is nothing that even suggests that the great multitude is the same as the 144,000


They are mentioned in the same passage. There is nothing to suggest they are anything different. People think they are different because John says that no man could count them, but they forget that no man does count the 144,000, John is told their number before seeing them, he doesn't count them.



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by kyred
Maybe this has been addressed in the previous 4 pages. But why are people talking about 144,000 made up of the tribes of Israel, but are calling them all Jews. Jews are but one tribe of Israel. That leaves, let's see, 11 other tribes. Just wondering.


At least somebody here is talking some sense. The Jews are are only the tribe of Judah, not all of Israel.



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by doctorex

They are mentioned in the same passage. There is nothing to suggest they are anything different. People think they are different because John says that no man could count them, but they forget that no man does count the 144,000, John is told their number before seeing them, he doesn't count them.


rev 19 : [1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:[2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.[3] And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

angels mentioned before

[4] And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

seraphs and elders

[5] And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

jesus

[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

great multitude.

mentioned as separate entities

[edit on 10-5-2008 by miriam0566]



posted on May, 10 2008 @ 06:33 AM
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How does that call them seperate groups? would you not call 144,000 people a great multitude?

The verse you are quoting seems to be talking about angels in heaven, since.....

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Also, you should check how many times this phrase "great multitude" is used in scripture, is not always referring to the same group. A great multitude of angels in heaven is not necessarily the the great multitude mentioned previously when talking about the 144,000.



[edit on 10/5/08 by doctorex]



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