why don't companies pay us more?

reply to post by McKennalite

It is not as simple as saying work harder, and you shall be rewarded with riches. I'd argue that for the majority of people that undertake such a philosophy, they are simply exploited for more hours of the day.

Amen to that! I can never understand people who hold to such a simplistic point of view. It's not as easy as that. I would rather subscribe to the idea of "Work SMARTER and you shall be rewarded".

In this day in age, it's not how hard and how long it took you to do a task. It's how fast and efficient it took you to do the same task. If weheld to the old philosophy, we would never have progressed. Look at all the technology we have available now and compare it to what we had 40-50 years ago. If we had kept to the same adage, we wouldn't bother with computers at all, we'd keep to doing everything by pen and paper because "it's long and hard work".

Look, I'm not saying that no amount of hard work is required, that would be incredibly naive. However, the best employeed always ends up being the one who is fastest and most efficient. This is just the honest truth.

Originally posted by McKennalite
What would you say to the poor kid that can't get into Dartmouth, because his parents have nothing (if he's luck enough to have both of them), lives in a one bedroom apartment in city high rise, goes to a completely underfunded high school that can't attract or afford inspiring and competent teachers, has to worry about violence in many of his travels to and from different locations, and has to work forty hours a week to help his family make ends meet?

What would you say to him about motivation? About opportunity?

I would ask him how bad he wants it. Nobody said it would be easy. It will be very difficult, but it's not impossible. Dartmouth is not located on the Moon. But is he willing to go to the library every day and study every spare moment to educate himself? Is he willing to talk to every person who will listen to him about his goal? Is he willing to abandon his friends and family and move to Hanover, New Hampshire, get a job working in a local pizza joint, and beg and borrow and take one class at a time? Forget about getting married. Live in a tiny, cold apartment with many other people. Ride a bike, no car, even in the cold winter. Live like a pauper. And if he fails at first, is he willing to pick himself up and try again? And again.

That's what it would take. But the opportunity is absolutely there.

We all only have one life to live, and we all have to make decisions. Some are extremely hard and you have to live with them forever. But it's also surprising how once a decision has been made, a lot of the other stuff starts to fall into place.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I feel your pain

It is like so many other issues in our society, in that if each side understood each other better both sides would benefit.

I have now been in business for over 20 years and only recently has it paid off. Most just don't understand that to acquire future rewards requires long term commitment.

At the same time, I have empathy for those in this world we now have, where people change careers multiple times instead of being allowed to become the best at what they do. This latest generation will have to be far more flexible and use good judgment in which professions they choose to succeed.

reply to post by Nohup


Yes, Nohup, and perhaps there are some individuals that have the opportunity do such things. But, your solution probably includes the necessity of leaving his parents, friends, and everything he knows behind. Perhaps, that's "what it takes" as you would say.

However, the point of the question is to explain that opportunity is not equal for everyone. It takes a hell of a lot more effort, luck, and pain for my exampled individual to succeed than say someone growing up in a wealthy suburb, with educated parents, good schools, and comfortable income.

---

Honestly, I take offense to your response, and I think you formulated it solely reinforce this imagine of an attainable success - that, in all honestly, is not truly attainable for the vast majority of individuals in this society. An ideal of success that is in many ways a faulty one.

Additionally, odds are our poor kid example probably wouldn't even know about Dartmouth College, because of the land of opportunity in which he exists. That's to say, those opportunities for the securing of such classed information are probably not existent.

There will always be exceptions to these rules, but that's just what they are. Exceptions.

Outsourcing and cheap imports are the bane of my existence, We do everything in our power to buy locally or regionally and from small artisan type companies whenever we possibly can.

That is something each and every person can do to turn this economy around, by buying this way the money is taken away from the corporations, away from the enviroment wrecking big business greedy boards of directors and back into the hands of the community.

Go to farmers markets or local small grocers, most cities even smaller ones, have coops where you get regionally grown foods
shop at places like Etsy for gifts and decor, If you dont like the made in China crap then dont buy it..as much as possible anyway.
scale back the extra spending and it is possible to do!

As the owner of a very small business that depends on my customers having discretionary income I feel every tightening of the belt, this christmas season was the worst I have had in 5 years, I went from looking at hiring a couple of helpers and possibly moving to an outside location to struggling to hold on to my existing wholesale customers.

Its too early in the year to really tell how retail and more specifically the Luxury or Bonus or Gift market, whichever you want to call it will play out for the year. MY product is not expensive but its not a necessity and depends on not becoming a commodity to survive in a market full of GIANT corporate brands.

I have had to scale back production, stop paying myself for a while, and pinch every penny at home to keep it going.

But here is the catch, even if I close up shop I am looking at best getting a retail management job in a smaller store like Bath and Body Works....shoot me know,
or I can go back to doing administrative office work, which pays crap in the grand scheme of things.
MY degree is useless, a bachelors in Psych means not a darn thing and most of my work experience in the last 6 years is not easily transfered to an outside employment application process.

Thank goodness my husband is in a very very stable field, he works for a company that contracts with insurance companies to do field investigations. Insurance isnt going to start paying up willy nilly anytime soon.

So for someone like me who started up during the boom because of the crap wages and crap jobs and who invested a lot of savings into the business this is for certain an uncertain time.

Outsourcing and cheap imports are the bane of my existence, We do everything in our power to buy locally or regionally and from small artisan type companies whenever we possibly can.

That is something each and every person can do to turn this economy around, by buying this way the money is taken away from the corporations, away from the enviroment wrecking big business greedy boards of directors and back into the hands of the community.

When I graduated from the University, I was all gungho and excited to join my chosen profession. I soon learned that the corporate structure followed the Peter principle and unless you were willing to do some major azzkizzin you were going to be stuck in the trenches. So I figured that if
they were going to pretend to pay me; I would pretend to work. I didn't last long in the corp. structure.

Thank the good Lord I still own the family farm/ranch and have enough skills and ambition to make it without those greedy bastards.

We used to make steel in this country; now we make happy meals.

It's a brave new world, welcome to the monkey house!!

Originally posted by McKennalite

One question for you:

What would you say to the poor kid that can't get into Dartmouth, because his parents have nothing ...
...What would you say to him about motivation? About opportunity?

I realize you asked this of someone else.

That was me in 1972 except replace the apartment with an old home on a small farm. Also include the fact there were NO Grants and NO Guaranteed Student Loans of up to $40,000 a year.

It is a tough road but can be overcome if the desire is there. I worked Graveyard Shift at Truck-stop and carried a full load at a University in the day time. I started at a Junior College and made damn sure my grades were high enough to get me into a better school. I sacrificed my social life and did what had to be done. That is how these things are overcome.

Now with the availability of these Student Loans the road is far easier financially. The trick now would seem to be picking a career that does not become obsolete in a few years. Also its imperative to make sure it is something you love to do. That makes the going much easier.

I went back to school in my mid-30's to learn Business Administration which was another struggle that paid off. Never think you are too old to learn.

Originally posted by McKennalite
reply to post by EndOfFile

 

Less taxes means less infrastructure means dilapidated roads, crumbling ineffective schools, mediocre inaccessible health-care, security collapses, and a paucity of welfare safety nets like unemployment, food stamps, etc.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by McKennalite]

Thats not actually true. Every single penny paid in income tax (certainly in the US, not far behind in the UK) goes in interest payments on the money that the government has borrowed. Corporate, sales, & other taxes provide the infrastructure.

If the governments printed their own money instead of allowing the central bank to do it & then charge interest, then we'd all be a lot better off & may be able to actually enjoy life in peace.

Another issue is that many times a bachelors is no longer enough to secure a truly good job that will pay you comfortably, a bachelors in business is great but many many companies require your MBA for anything from middle management on up.

reply to post by dshut69


I've heard that argument before dshut69, and I think its an intriguing one. I, unfortunately, haven't seen any veritable proof for it. If you have some reliable resources you could direct me toward, I'd really appreciate it. I've begun to learn more about the Fed, Central Banking, and so fourth since Paul hit the political scene this year.

I think a lot of Paul's ideas are good in theory, but terrible in practice, because of the state of things as they are. Free-Market ideas only work in society's where the playing ground is even. That is not the world we live in, so I'm immediately suspect of such arguments.

As such, what would happen if taxation ceased right now? Who would benefit, and who would suffer? I think the answer to that question is pretty clear. The poor would have no where to turn, but to each other - and unfortunately I doubt they'd have much to offer one another.

Now, are the poor currently shouldering more of the taxation burden than they should? You're damn right they are, but that's another issue for another time.

Originally posted by McKennalite

There will always be exceptions to these rules, but that's just what they are. Exceptions.

"Exceptions" are created by exceptional people. People should not begrudge those who went the extra mile so to speak. Opportunity does indeed abound in this country but it takes dedication and motivation to grab onto it. I'm not talking about getting rich because I am not rich myself. I'm talking about self sufficiency due to motivation and a desire which makes a person willing to go an extra mile.

A wise man once told me "if you want to succeed you have got to stop depending on others. Stop listening to the advice from unsuccessful people and start listening to those who have succeeded in life. (paraphrasing as this was many years ago)". It hit me like a ton of bricks and within months I had my first business underway, money in my pocket and a future. I was homeless and going through a divorce at the time. No living relatives to turn too and no friends with money. Only a useless degree and for the first time in young adult life I set long range and short range goals. I've never had an empty wallet since. I've had discussions with people like Ross Perot and Lee Iaccoca and I quickly found when asked the successful people gladly encourage others to succeed. I'll never be rich but I'll also never answer to anyone above me and I have 7 people who make a GOOD income from my efforts.

I also can not construct a decent sentence to save my life.

Originally posted by McKennalite
reply to post by Nohup

 

Yes, Nohup, and perhaps there are some individuals that have the opportunity do such things. But, your solution probably includes the necessity of leaving his parents, friends, and everything he knows behind. Perhaps, that's "what it takes" as you would say.

However, the point of the question is to explain that opportunity is not equal for everyone. It takes a hell of a lot more effort, luck, and pain for my exampled individual to succeed than say someone growing up in a wealthy suburb, with educated parents, good schools, and comfortable income.

I would say that the opportunity is equal for everyone, although the cost to attain the goal is obviously going to be different.

Honestly, I take offense to your response, and I think you formulated it solely reinforce this imagine of an attainable success - that, in all honestly, is not truly attainable for the vast majority of individuals in this society. An ideal of success that is in many ways a faulty one.

I'm sorry you take offense. It's not a personal attack. I understand that most people limit their imaginations and their efforts, because there's a lot of comfort to be had being "average." And the nail that sticks up highest is the one that gets hammered first. But there's another truism that also happens to be true. "If it was easy, everybody'd be doing it."

Additionally, odds are our poor kid example probably wouldn't even know about Dartmouth College, because of the land of opportunity in which he exists. That's to say, those opportunities for the securing of such classed information are probably not existent.

I wasn't the one who came up with the idea that the guy wanted to go to Dartmouth. But I don't care if he wanted to be an astronaut or climb Mount Everest. If he wanted to do it bad enough, there are ways he could do it.

There will always be exceptions to these rules, but that's just what they are. Exceptions.

But somebody has to be the exception. Why can't it be you or me? Why do you have such a low opinion of your own potential?

[edit on 30-1-2008 by Nohup]

Originally posted by Blaine91555


"Exceptions" are created by exceptional people. People should not begrudge those who went the extra mile so to speak. Opportunity does indeed abound in this country but it takes dedication and motivation to grab onto it. I'm not talking about getting rich because I am not rich myself. I'm talking about self sufficiency due to motivation and a desire which makes a person willing to go an extra mile.

I totally agree with this, the majority of people who have never owned a business or taken the huge risks it takes in order to be one of those exceptions has no idea what is actually involved.
I tell people I work from home with my own business and they always say oooh how nice, it must be so easy to just go to work in your pajamas

I smile and say Yes it is nice! But what they never get is the sheer amount of hours involved in working for onself, the stress of the responsibility, the thousands of tiny decisions one has to make on a daily or even hourly basis.

Not to mention the mess in the house when you outgrow your space, the problem of never really knowing if you are at home or at work, trying to concentrate with kids and dogs and husbands and every thing else family life entails.
Then there are the 80 hour work weeks from september to christmas just to break even for the year, the out of control rise in supply costs and the ever present mass produced imports.

So yes I am one of the priveledged few, I am self employed, I can work in my pajamas and often do.
But I am nearly always working, I never am just sitting and watching a movie, I m labeling or trimming at the same time, Even now i am printing brochures. I am R&D, production, sales and marketing, accounting, Cleaning crew, physical labor in that i have to pack up a store and set it up two to three times a month on average and three times a week in the summer.
I have made it past the two year hump and even started to show some profits..which of course immediately get sunk back into the company.

I need a helper but cant afford the person i would need so instead i bribe friends and family members with food, booze and free product to come and help me out during the crazy times.

Most people simply arent willing to put the kind of work that is required of becoming an exception to the rule, to many many people Im sure it wouldnt be worth it.

Originally posted by McKennalite
reply to post by EndOfFile

 

Less taxes means less infrastructure means dilapidated roads, crumbling ineffective schools, mediocre inaccessible health-care, security collapses, and a paucity of welfare safety nets like unemployment, food stamps, etc.

Now, on the other hand, maybe it also means less war, because war can't be afforded. However, that is an issue of political priorities, and we certainly live in a time where those priorities are screwed up beyond recognition.

Taxation should not be the issue at hand here. People should make enough money to be truly comfortable, but also enough to pay taxes to provide for the social institutions that keep us a healthy functioning society. Capital greed is the problem, and a growing one at that.



[edit on 30-1-2008 by McKennalite]

You are kidding, right? First of all, roads are maintained with gasoline tax. None of the money you pay in Federal Taxes is used to pay for anything but one thing: THE INTEREST ON OUR DEBT.

When was the last time you saw your hard earned taxes be put to good use? Are you happy that your taxes are being spent in a conflict with no end? Once again, we're just paying the interest on the billions and billions we're spending over there. Do you see any end in sight?

reply to post by gluetrap


Easy is definitely not a factor. When my current employees are around the corner discussing whether I deserve my (grossly exaggerated by them) income I just smile. They were not around when my Wife and I put in the 70 to 80 hour weeks to create my business.

I'm seriously looking at heading your direction by working at a home business. It is very appealing as just keeping my office open costs me about $50,000 a year for lease, utilities, insurance and everything else down to the rubber bands and toilet paper that go home in peoples pockets. When the guy who cleans for me does not show up guess who cleans the toilets


Now I'm for sure whining. Time to stop.

Put all the bashing aside Ive spoke about this similar subject in one of my threads but there really is a lot of luck involved in "making it". I know people who have went to college for 4 and 6 years and make 28K a year and I didnt graduate highschool and I make well lets say a lot more than that. I had some good opportunities pop up which came from my hard work but there are people who work hard who never get the chance to move to that next level.

Basically to sum it up if your lucky enough a good opportunity will come I just hope your smart enough to jump on it.

reply to post by jimmyx


because the fat greedy pigs at the top wanna hog everything for themselves and lead you to economic slavery....not wealth

Waiting for someone else to pay you huge sums of money, or give you that promotion or to notice your work is a matter of luck. Having a clear goal and plan and putting the work in to make it happen for yourself isnt luck, its a whole lot of extremely hard work.

Im much more willing to work for myself for 10 bucks and hour than i am to work for 15 an hour for someone else, but that is my personality.

But if someone has a 4 or 6 yr degree that is usable and pertains to their career there is no reason they should make 28 a yr for ever and ever.

Sure that might be the starting pay, but based on education performance and the viability of the company they are working for that will increase with time.
And if they are working for much less than they are worth than its time to start hunting for a new job, the best time to find a job is when you have a job.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by gluetrap

 

I'm seriously looking at heading your direction by working at a home business. It is very appealing as just keeping my office open costs me about $50,000 a year for lease, utilities, insurance and everything else down to the rubber bands and toilet paper that go home in peoples pockets. When the guy who cleans for me does not show up guess who cleans the toilets

Now I'm for sure whining. Time to stop.

If it doesnt include the actual production of a product than Id say go for it
Actually making the stuff that i sell, which requires lots of different ingredients and packaging and various other supplies and equipment equals a whole lot of clutter and crap in a house that is too small to handle it.

I am going to be moving into the garage this spring, we are working on insulating drywall etc....I cant wait to have a house again, and enough room to be able to easily and efficiently work, as well as be able to have clients over to browse..right now I always have to go to them, they dont need to see the mess that is my studio, or have dogs running around or trip over a Hot Wheel and break a leg....
Its chaotic but we wouldnt have it any other way!

I'll say it one more time.
If you have skills in demand, it's your fault if you don't like your current employer and stay there.

YOU ARE CHOOSING.
Be it for family, friends, town, region, whatever.

I haven't ever been unemployed longer than it took to move from one job to another. Why? Because I'd rather work 2 sucky jobs than snivvel.
And yes, I have done it several times with a family. Hard for a time, of course, but I never sat around waiting for an opportunity, I went out and made one for myself and family, or moved to where the jobs were.

Yes, companies and corporations are in it for the bottom line, and you are just an operating expense. The trick is to be a necessary operating expence, not a disposable one.