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why don't companies pay us more?

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posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by Dagar
 


Your post makes great sense. You make a very good point. In the venture to try and make more money in the world market American companies have forgotten that their own people are customers too.
Very good point Dagar. Starred.




posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:09 PM
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This topic obviously is emotionally charged, and the reasons are clear.
Let me also put in my two cents.
First, Manticore, you are correct that skills equate with job advancement. No one is going to pay an employee just because he/she is a nice person, or shows up every day. The world is changing at a very rapid pace. Just look at the tools you need to perform most white-collar jobs. Forty yeras ago, engineers used slide rules to perform calculations. (I still have my original sliderule, that I pull out to show my grandchildren, when they talk about using a computer.) Then came the TI calculator. The first one was around $500.00 Within a few years, you could get them in a 5 and 10 cent store for $1.99. Then came the personal computer- 1980-and a good one was $10,000 or so. As the technology progressed, the cost came down, and the capabilities increased-exponentially.

The point- technology has exploded to the point where what used to take 100 people a week to do, can, in many cases be performed by one person in a day.

Second point- Most family owned businesses do try to take care of their employees, as long as the employees perform for them, because that is a win-win situation. The problem really rears it's ugly head in the large corporations, which are operating on a playing field tilted in their favor, and against the employee.
What tilted the field so heavily? One major factor was NAFTA. Regardless of what the politicians tell you (and both Democrats and Republicans supported it in large numbers), NAFTA has seriously eroded the standard of living in the United States for all but the few at the top. Lou Dobbs has it right- it IS a war on the middle class.

So what is one to do. Yes, education will help, but in most fields, you need at least a BS/BA degree. In addition, what I always told my students is that they had to be flexible, both in where they work, and in what they do. In addition, they should never turn down an opportunity if one is given to them by their boss. Volunteer to take on extra work (yes, without extra pay), make yourself so valuable to your boss, that they can't afford to get rid of you. Will it work 100% of the time? No, there are always situations that occur beyond even your boss' capability to fix. However, the old adage of try, try, try again usually will prevail.

Finally, don't give up and let the B******S get you down. Get involved in the political process. Look at the people involved in Ron Paul's campaign. You may not agree with all he has to say, but his people WILL eventually make a difference.
If you give up, and say that nothing can be done, woe is me, then you WILL lose.
Keep the faith and don't give up the ship.
God Bless.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by Daz3d-n-Confus3d
 


and by the way ...how old are you ..and what skills do you have ...and more importantly... how long do you think your employer is going to think you are valuable?....please don't lecture me... i have been on both sides of the "management" and "labor" arguements. i have alot more experience in both of these positions and i realize what has taken place over the last 3 decades, and i am sour to what has happened in our corporate enviorment as it pertains to employees.


A vile and aggressive behavior, poor grammar, and little to no recognizable education are my guesses as to why your income isn't where you'd like it.

My father earns well into six-figures a year. He's received multiple degrees from Boston University, Lehigh, and Yale School of Management. We'd had to move quite a bit as a child, but, money is money. And how he directed his life and what he received for it is an indication that that particular theory works well. Some of you may even recognize his name if you heard it!

I'm following the same path, and while I doubt employers will be so giddy to assign me a place given the current state of the economy, I've all-ready begun to receive 'invitations' after my college years are over.

Something to consider.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


That is a myopic viewpoint.

I'm a small business owner with 7 employees. Small business employs half the country. The same things that affect or hurt you financially hurt us as well.

I have realized a 25% reduction in my income while at the same time I have raised what I pay by about 25%. If I were forced to raise the pay any more I would shut my doors as I would make less than my employees.

All this happened to me since 2000. My gross receipts are up more than 50% and in spite of that my income dropped. Too many times employees get it into their heads that the "Boss" is wealthy when in fact we are going through the same struggle.

I offer my people opportunities to make more by working the same hours I do but they never put in the extra effort. It is a struggle on both sides. I have good people but they will never improve their situation because they have a clockwatcher mentality. They show up late and leave early and then blame others for their failure to improve themselves. Once in a blue moon I get someone with motivation and when that happens I offer to help them start their own offices. Most people are not interested because they are not willing to make the sacrifice involved to become independent and self sufficient.

Forgive my negative attitude but I'm running ad's right now and in three weeks not a single person has applied who could even fill out an application correctly. I had a person with a communications degree who could not read and write at a level I'd expect from a Jr. High student. He was just one in a long line of graduates who are nearly illiterate who have applied over the last few years. I used to be able to use university students to fill in but their communications skills are so bad I've had to abandon that practice. I've also noted a remarkable number of mid-20's to mid-30's age people who still live off their parents even though nearly every business in the city is hiring at all times. Plenty of jobs but nobody motivated enough to fill them.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by Iblis

Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by Daz3d-n-Confus3d
 


and by the way ...how old are you ..and what skills do you have ...and more importantly... how long do you think your employer is going to think you are valuable?....please don't lecture me... i have been on both sides of the "management" and "labor" arguements. i have alot more experience in both of these positions and i realize what has taken place over the last 3 decades, and i am sour to what has happened in our corporate enviorment as it pertains to employees.


A vile and aggressive behavior, poor grammar, and little to no recognizable education are my guesses as to why your income isn't where you'd like it.

My father earns well into six-figures a year. He's received multiple degrees from Boston University, Lehigh, and Yale School of Management. We'd had to move quite a bit as a child, but, money is money. And how he directed his life and what he received for it is an indication that that particular theory works well. Some of you may even recognize his name if you heard it!

I'm following the same path, and while I doubt employers will be so giddy to assign me a place given the current state of the economy, I've all-ready begun to receive 'invitations' after my college years are over.

Something to consider.


I think you should also consider something. Maybe your father's money has something to do with "who" he knows more than what he knows. Maybe that is why you are being approach as it is now.

I myself am a graduate from a non ivy league school. I am hard working and have a very good job. But there is something else I realize the older I get and the higher I try to reach.

I will never rise above my station because I lack the "wink wink" "nudge nudge" I know you you know me that persists in our society today. The upper echelon in business culture is and will become an almost exclusive society amongst themselves. They have as little in common with the middle class as a Lion has with a cat. Oh they both come from the same species they just view each other that much differently.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Employers know that everyone has bills..

Everyone needs to live.. and that takes capital/income....

Employers/management know that others will cringe and do as they are told or face finding another job.

If your to efficient they add to your work load.. if your to slow they criticize you not for your benefit but for theirs be it to look good to the higher ups or wishing to profit from your work.

So ya.. fear is a tool used by the majority to get what one wants from others..

Sorry to say.. but so many stack their dept's due to what they want and not what they need that they tend to live to pay off that dept. We tend to create our own chains of misery by building dept, giving ourselves enought rope, to hang ourselves.. and if anyone things others in business are there to see other succeed are seriously mistaken and blind.

Todays work philosophy is take what you can and move on.. both workers and employers alike... Look at the French bank in the news these days...

The trader said his bosses knew what he was doing since 2005. The only reason they never acted on his trades was he was making them money.. soon as he took them in the red.. they through him to the wolves..

Majority of businesses, not just banks, run in this fashion... a slave to our desires... and others know this and use it against us.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by JoeHallenback
 


I've heard that phrase.. its not what you know but who you know.

Also some employers will also not fire you if they deem it would be more costly to lose you then keep you, even if they consider a poor employee...



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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Those of you that subscribe to this "American Dream" ideology seem, to me, to fall into one of two camps.

1.) You're ignorant, confused, and haven't spent a whole lot of time reading critically about economics, power, hegemony, and ideology. You unwittingly buy into a system that is designed to concentrate wealth in one direction (hint: not yours). This may not entirely be your own fault being that our (American) cultural institutions (Education, Religion [Typically the Church], Families, Media, etc.) all tow the ideological line. They, quite intentionally, disregard a critical history of how and why this country had developed the way it has, and, more often than not, portray capitalism, commercialism, market ideology, and rampant consumerism as the a priori norm of any healthy society. Alternative theoretical understandings and critical evaluations of the history, morality, function, and form of this Capitalist "Democracy" are never undertaken in most culturally sanctioned arenas.

2.) You feel as though you achieved the "American Dream." Perhaps, you are one of the few individuals that has actually lifted themselves up by the bootstraps (a move that Stephen Colbert quite cleverly claimed to see in a performance by Cirque D'Soleil.) However, odds are you come from a privileged background, have always had opportunities that, while maybe not having been handed to you on a silver platter, did not require an inordinate amount of struggle. This, my friend, is not the norm for the vast population of members of our great society.

---

I have struggled for everything I've achieved. A Bachelor's and Master's Degree, and I'm about halfway to my Doctorate. I study inequality, and madness of unfettered ideology.

It is not as simple as saying work harder, and you shall be rewarded with riches. I'd argue that for the majority of people that undertake such a philosophy, they are simply exploited for more hours of the day.

Economically, politically, culturally, and ideologically, the cards are stacked against the working and middle classes. For most of us, it will be impossible to achieve the "great success" that is used as bar to which we "should" ascend.

The system in which we live is inherently corrupt, based on exploitation, and an unrealistic axiom of infinite growth that ignores the fact that we live in a finite world with finite resources. Happiness is equated with commodities, and, even worse, everything is commidified. As Habermas has said, the whimsy of the market and capitalism continually seeps into our lifeworld. Our relationships, our emotions, and even our bodies become products to be bought and sold on the world market.

---

If you wish to see change, you must critically educate yourself. You must know the language of struggle, and then you must implement it. Organization, action, and struggle are the only way to change this unjust world. The road is long and arduous, but the alternative is just as painful.

Knowledge is key.

No one can save us, but ourselves.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by McKennalite]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:04 PM
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There is no simple answer here, and the truth will sting. Look, most of the reason why you dont get paid more at work is your level of education, wealth of family (parents), and IQ. Some people are the "worker bees". Some are the queen. If you were given a crappy hand at birth you are going to have to be lucky, smart, brutal, and hard working to become wealthy. A few can play sports, or win the lottery....VERY FEW. Take pride in whatever you do, no matter how crappy it seems now. The poor bastard building pyramids probably hated his life as well...but he was serving a higher purpose. We all gotta serve somebody


also..........evrything is in the way you look at it. I would love to live like Scarface and have the 10 person hot tub in my bedroom......However I still can feel like a king sitting it a small hot tub outside and smoking a cuban cigar on a cold night......Enjoy the small things in life. Trust me

[edit on 30-1-2008 by TXMACHINEGUNDLR]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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I think you should also consider something. Maybe your father's money has something to do with "who" he knows more than what he knows. Maybe that is why you are being approach as it is now.

I myself am a graduate from a non ivy league school. I am hard working and have a very good job. But there is something else I realize the older I get and the higher I try to reach.

I will never rise above my station because I lack the "wink wink" "nudge nudge" I know you you know me that persists in our society today. The upper echelon in business culture is and will become an almost exclusive society amongst themselves. They have as little in common with the middle class as a Lion has with a cat. Oh they both come from the same species they just view each other that much differently.


Because a person can not have simply earned the way he lives?
My father's father's father was a farmer. Who was, according to my grandfather's biography, less than kind to him as a child. My grandfather, in his later years, worked as some of the top management at GE. It's called working for something.

And no, my friend. I'm sure that going to Dartmouth and being approached with job offers is more about what I have achieved in my life, than what he did in his. Though if he did use business contacts to help me out, all the better? There's no shame in using who you are to help your progeny, or others within reason.

Stop blaming others for your misfortune.
The business game is entirely about what you've learned, and what you've achieved. Earn some intelligent degrees regarding the business profession of your choice at any respectable college. -Do- something beyond what you are asked at where you work, and you'll see something appear to you.

The only real limit here is age, admittedly. After your mid-thirties, or fourties, employers find reasons to not higher you, simply do to the increased liability involved, as well as your less liberal nature. [In general, I realize this won't apply to many members of a conspiratorial forum.]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by rizla
 


Come on Rizla. I am totally against globalization. It is the NWO at its best (or worst). However, you cannot tell a business owner they can't buy the same product in China, when they can pay 70% less there.

Now there's Hitlery, sorry, Hillary, warning me that as an employer, I will pay for my employees' medical insurance. I tried that and after almost tripling in less than 3 years, I had to make the decision of paying or closing down, or refusing to pay it and continue supporting 25 families. Do you get my point?

How about ending the unnecessary Iraq conflict/invasion and putting those billions to work here to support who truly needs it and cannot work to obtain basic services? How dare the government impose this on me? Ron Paul is the only solution.

I know it sounds cliché to say "I buy American". I remember having seen a comic section at a newspaper last Christmas, where the wife asked the husband, who's carrying several presents and she asked him "Darling, why are all the jobs going abroad and his answer was, I don't know". All the boxes said, made in China, India, etc.

As long as the population buys at Walmart and is not willing to pay more, the cycle will continue.

I have one Ron Paul solution for you (and yes, I'm a huge supporter of Dr. Ron Paul) - BRING EVERY TROOP STATIONED ABROAD HOME. All those people will spend their money here. New industries and jobs would be created just to meet the demand for these people's services.

Agree on this?



[edit on 30-1-2008 by manticore]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Iblis
 


One question for you:

What would you say to the poor kid that can't get into Dartmouth, because his parents have nothing (if he's luck enough to have both of them), lives in a one bedroom apartment in city high rise, goes to a completely underfunded high school that can't attract or afford inspiring and competent teachers, has to worry about violence in many of his travels to and from different locations, and has to work forty hours a week to help his family make ends meet?

What would you say to him about motivation? About opportunity?



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


Blaine, your point about college graduates and their language skills are right on target. Every year that I taught, (after having spent 30 years in industry and my own business), I noticed a significant decline in basic English and Math skills. The educational system in this country is in severe decline. The reasons are many, too many to go into on a thread not intended for that discussion. However, your points are excellent. The small business owner is being pressured from all sides, both inside the country, and of course, from abroad. Small business made this country great, and NAFTA and the NWO are destroying it. Eventually, it will come back to haunt them, when there are no longer any consumers that can afford their products and services, but meanwhile, much of the country suffers. I wish you well in your business. I had my own for 8 years, and I survived, but it was tough.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by McKennalite
reply to post by Iblis
 


One question for you:

What would you say to the poor kid that can't get into Dartmouth, because his parents have nothing (if he's luck enough to have both of them), lives in a one bedroom apartment in city high rise, goes to a completely underfunded high school that can't attract or afford inspiring and competent teachers, has to worry about violence in many of his travels to and from different locations, and has to work forty hours a week to help his family make ends meet?

What would you say to him about motivation? About opportunity?


Iblis. I am a true living example of exactly what you just described. My parents were immigrants and never asked the government for help. They worked very hard so that we could have some education and it was my brothers and I who started working since we were 12. We then saved enough money to buy a car, go to college, and work in the corporate world/rat race, until we were equipped enough to buy a business and become independent.

So yes, I did it, and anyone can do it too. Having slept in a room with 4 other brothers was enough motivation that I, and not the government or a sympathetic hand, was responsible for my life.

The problem is that many poor people are born with the entitlement attitude, which is very difficult to break. I also have friends who had wealthy parents and today they are losers. Why? They had it too easy.

I'm glad to be in a first generation that values hard work and dedication. The tough part will be to raise my children, who are fortunate to not have lots of needs, with the same work ethic.

I'm not trying to attack your point. I'm just illustrating with me as an example that it can be done.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:40 PM
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This is a great thread and I feel I should add my own experience here as well to show the people backing up the employers to see the reality of the situation.

I used to work for a community action program here in GA (I won't mention the name in case they decide to spy on this thread ha ha!)

Not only was I incredibly underpaid for a social worker (I was paid 5 to 8 dollars LESS than any other social worker would normally get paid) and yet they also expected me to stick around longer than my normal 8 hours without extra pay. "You're not qualified" I was told "only management can get paid exta" this, by the way, is a GOVERNMENT program/job. So much for fairness huh? Now, if the government thinks I'm not "qualified" to get paid for the extra effort/hours that I have to put in, then I don't think the government is qualified/deserves to get my extra work. By the way, before anyone asks. This was an hourly paid job, not a salary based job, therefore, I should've been qualified for extra pay regardless.

It doesn't matter anymore because I NEVER worked the extra hours. after my 8 hour work day, I gladly left and waved to the rest of the workers who glared at me as I left, while probably muttering "how DARE he leave at the actual time he's supposed to leave?" under their breath.

Why was this practice done? because they had a quota to fill, certain number of students needed to be enrolled by X day. Which is fine and completely udnerstandable. HOWEVER, if the government isn't even going to bother taking into consideration circumstances/obstacles that stood in our way (basically? the government was asking for way too many children in classrooms in a neighborhood that didn't have many poor families to enroll. But the government didn't cut us some slack DESPITE the fact we were working our butts off every single day) and if the government isn't going to even bother paying us the right pay and not going to even bother paying us for our extra hours worked. Then what incentive do I have as a worker?

This isn't the worse of it. Due to the incredibly unrealistic goals that the government had set for our program, workers were "encouraged" (I like the term FORCED better, but whatever) by management to do some incredibly shady practices in order to try and fill the quota of "needy" families/students enrolled, of which some included forging signatures, forging letters and income information in applications in order to make sure that, at least on the application, the family seemed eligible for help.

Again, why was this done? Because at least 90% of the families that came into our offices made MORE money than was required for eligibility! That's right! we were helping families that didn't need any help at all. In fact, at least 80% of them were making more money than US!!!! How pathetic is it that the family you're trying to help out already makes more than you? The bottom line? the program wasn't desgined to help needy families as much as management liked to lie to us, it was about one thing and one thing only, money. The program and hence, the government, got money for this program from tax payers. So the government wanted to make sure they got the most money by putting unrealistic expectations. The more families/students enrolled, the more money the program, and by extension, the government got. But since we didn't have enough needy families in our area, we ended up "helping" families that didn't need it, which I wouldn't have had a problem with if the government would've been more lenient, the workers didn't have to resort to shady practices and would've actually paid us our dues if we had to work longer hours.

Needless to say, I was fired from that job because I didn't want to conform to their practices, nor did I want to work longer hours for NO pay just because the government wanted more money. I'm sorry, but last I checked, working for no pay or compensation is just too much like slavery and I'm just not keen on that idea. Truth of the matter is, I was a good worker, I was a GREAT worker! How do I know? Because I was asked a number of times to train new people and I was complimented a number of times both by the families and some of the upper management (not working in the same office as mine). But they didn't seem to like the idea that I had too much self pride, self dignity, and an actual sense of what my rights are and what I was due.

On a final note. I don't see this practice actually stopping unless we the workers do something about it. Unfortunately, I do see an age in the future were people will be asked to work 10+ hours as the norm. This is WRONG! That is almost half of your day spent on a job you probably don't even want, and all "just to make ends meet". This has to stop and the key to it is us. I believe that if more workers put their foot down and say "no! You CANNOT do that!" then the companies will eventually have to re-think their strategy. In hindsight, it might work against us thanks to illegal immigrants and outsourcing. But SOMETHING has to be done. I'm actually thinking of opening up my own photo/film studio to be honest. Maybe that way I can raise the middle finger to that government program for trying to make me WASTE (yes, I said it! a waste!) my time and by extension my life as an underpaid slave worker.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by manticore
 


Very true Manticore. I was raised in a small town where a large percentage of the people had that mentality. We called it "stinking thinking". They believed that what they had was all they could get. That the rich people had all the money and no one else could touch it. Their parents lived that way and it would be the same for them. I moved out of that town.
I am no where near rich, but I am a lot better off than I would have been had I stayed there.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by Iblis

Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by Daz3d-n-Confus3d
 


and by the way ...how old are you ..and what skills do you have ...and more importantly... how long do you think your employer is going to think you are valuable?....please don't lecture me... i have been on both sides of the "management" and "labor" arguements. i have alot more experience in both of these positions and i realize what has taken place over the last 3 decades, and i am sour to what has happened in our corporate enviorment as it pertains to employees.


A vile and aggressive behavior, poor grammar, and little to no recognizable education are my guesses as to why your income isn't where you'd like it.

My father earns well into six-figures a year. He's received multiple degrees from Boston University, Lehigh, and Yale School of Management. We'd had to move quite a bit as a child, but, money is money. And how he directed his life and what he received for it is an indication that that particular theory works well. Some of you may even recognize his name if you heard it!

I'm following the same path, and while I doubt employers will be so giddy to assign me a place given the current state of the economy, I've all-ready begun to receive 'invitations' after my college years are over.

Something to consider.



Hi there everyone,

Thought I would write about my life and how I made it better.

I currently live in New Zealand. I'm 37 Married with 2 young kids. Own my own Engineering company. Freehold in family home. 2 Freehold rental properties and another with a mortgage. How did I get to this stage in life.

I left school at 16 (1986), wanted a girl , car and money ( had a lot on wants in life), got an apprenticeship in engineering. Small company in a small town (20,000) in NZ. I Walked in off the street in to company and asked for a job. Boss was impressed with my self help attitude. Become a tradesman after 5 yrs (yes very long and a lot of night school) was made redundant/laid off. That’s life!.

So went to university. Studied Geology (Economic Geology). Finished with an Honors Degree. Debt $45,000.

How to pay off debt before settling down. Moved to Western Australia and worked in the mines. (FIFO 14 Days/ 12hrs then 7 days off )Didn’t drink much or smoke at all. Saved a lot of money paid of debt. Then worked for Rio Tinto in the Pacific Islands. What a life easy money, tropical paradise, easy hours. Saved more money.

Eventually ended up in London working at Shell (UK) Ltd HQ (1999). They snapped me up straight away. They said they are struggling to get skilled staff. No problems with unskilled plenty of them. I worked on 3 monthly Contract, set my own conditions… Health, 50% Paid Transport, Accommodation, Food, 8 weeks Annual Leave. Once again what a life, couldn’t be easier.

Now in 2008 run my own Company charge myself out at NZD$ 85.00. Have to turn work away. Currently looking at selling company and moving out to the country on 20 acres and living the good life.

All this by 37 yrs old with no help from family, In-heritance, large mortgages.

Never once have I complained, moaned etc about what life has dealt me. Have just got on with it the best I could.

Yes luck has had bit to do with it, but I also made a lot of it happen myself.

Always be positive (half full glass not half empty glass).

Last bit of info, and have found a lot of bosses etc do this. If I see you helping yourself and making an effort I will move heaven and earth to help you. If I don’t see you helping yourself then why should I help you. I know a bit hard but IMO thats how the world works.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by greenfruit
 


I congratulate you on your success.

I just hope you don't take the, "I made it, so everyone else that hasn't is just lazy or stupid" attitude.

You seem to have stumbled on quite a few wonderful opportunities in life, and that's not to say that you didn't work your ass off - I'm sure you did.

There are, however, many folks out there that don't get those opportunities, continually work their asses off, and they'll never see the light of the "Good life." And, well, that's just wrong.




[edit on 30-1-2008 by McKennalite]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


The question you should be asking why don't we pay less taxes that way we get to keep more of what we make. Do I make great money no but do I get paid what the job is worth, yes. And my company is very employee oriented so it's good work environment.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by EndOfFile
 


Less taxes means less infrastructure means dilapidated roads, crumbling ineffective schools, mediocre inaccessible health-care, security collapses, and a paucity of welfare safety nets like unemployment, food stamps, etc.

Now, on the other hand, maybe it also means less war, because war can't be afforded. However, that is an issue of political priorities, and we certainly live in a time where those priorities are screwed up beyond recognition.

Taxation should not be the issue at hand here. People should make enough money to be truly comfortable, but also enough to pay taxes to provide for the social institutions that keep us a healthy functioning society. Capital greed is the problem, and a growing one at that.



[edit on 30-1-2008 by McKennalite]



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