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why don't companies pay us more?

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posted on Feb, 2 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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Why don't they pay us more?

Quod Possamus. Because they can.

Reasons why:

Americans are too stupid to vote socialist, and too lazy to have another revolution.

Maybe Barack Obama will change all that




posted on Feb, 2 2008 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


I have read through pretty much all the pages of this thread and a little bit reluctant I thought I would post on this subject.

First of all I want to say I can understand your attitude, and sometimes I find myself asking the same thing. I also feel that greed is one reason why companies don't pay employees higher wages, but there really isn't anything you can do about their greed. Companies want to make profit, and they will do what is necessary to gain it.

My thoughts are, if you don't like your current situation, or are unhappy then move on to something else. I believe that anybody is capable of doing what they want, or achieving their goals if they put forth the effort. This is something my wife and I debate about. I am constantly trying to better myself physically/emotionally/financially to provide for my family.

Let me tell you a little about my experiences. After high school I went to a Technical college to get a degree in computer programming. I dropped out shortly after I started, I just didn't like the school. I moved back in with my mom and found a full time job at a local grocery/department store, which is Union. I got paid minimum wage at the time $5.15 at the time I think. I worked there for a total of 5 years topping out at the highest wage for my classification $11 or $12 dollars. During this time I went back to college for my 2 year degree in computer programming, which probably took 4 years
I worked full time while going to school, making that $11 or $12 dollars. I looked for jobs and had a lot of interviews for computer jobs, but I didn't get hired at any. I was very persistant and optimistic, but I either didn't have enough experience, or the pay was LOWER than what I was making at my current job. I didn't want to take a pay cut so for a while I stopped looking for jobs and continued my current one. During this time I moved out from home and rented an apartment, with the same $12/hr. Yes, I was finally independent, buying groceries, paying bills, etc... many times in my job I tried to "move up" into a manager position as this was the only way to improve in pay. I tried this for 2-3 years with not much luck...however I don't believe it was because I couldn't do the job or take the responsibility, but because others were threatened that I could do it better. Mind you this is a "family" oriented company that likes to "promote from within". There were many positions open and at different stores and I had an interview with the head manager. Well, I didn't get the job and was very dissapointed when I found out, and that they hired someone outside the company. My 5 years of service, always coming to work, not calling off, not being late, staying late to get things done, going above and beyond what was expected of me couldn't get me a "higher" position. I told my supervisor, who was making the schedule for next week, not to bother putting me on it. I told him I'm quitting. If I can't "grow" with the company I don't want to be a part of it. I quit 2 days later...no 2 weeks notice, nothing. I found my next job at a Fortune 500 company making just above that $12 and I presently still work there coming up on my 5 year anniversary. I now make just under $17 and have had 3 different positions, my current one for 2 years. It's also a Union job. During my time at the last job and my current job, I have become married, rented out 2 appartments, bought a house, have had 2 new cars (and a buch of used ones), and last year my wife gave birth to our first son. My point of this message is not to brag about anything, but to say that people can get what they want if they put the time in. I don't make a "lot" so things are tight granted. I'm not happy with my current job and find it mind numbing, like my previous job there isn't any room to grow and I find myself in the same position as my last job. I was turned down to a sales position so I am pretty much "stuck" in my current position. In a way I'm glad I dind't get "promoted" I am now going back to school and pursuing an entirely different degree. I am working 40+ hours a week and going to school so I have VERY LITTLE time for myself. I want to make a change in my life to better myself and to provide better for my family, so I'm going back to school. I believe that the only thing preventing people from change or doing better are themselves. It's easy to be content where you are in life and not want to change. I can understand that...but for me I know when I have to move on. I guess to me this is the "American Dream"



posted on Feb, 2 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by jenkwater
It is quite obvious that the odds are stacked against us to make independent successes of ourselves and I don't think boot licking is a viable solution.

A lot of corporations have raise schedules so regardless of performance it is a set amount of time when one will receive an increase in pay. Most of the time these are "crap" jobs that some posters may scoff at but somebody has to do them whether we like it or not. These "crap" jobs should be gateways to furthering ones life and career but in a lot of cases people get stuck in a rut for one reason or another. If a company does really well usually those good times do not make it to the common place worker-

The corporate structure is designed for profits to trickle downwards. Common sense and intelligence usually exist on the lower rungs of the ladder and not in the board room. There is a huge disconnect between the board room and the common employee which causes them to see us as graphs and numbers as opposed to people.

The fact of the matter is that having a degree or diploma only helps people in certain industries which leaves the rest of us clawing for our dreams.


Applaud this post, This man has summed up the world as it is today.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Daz3d-n-Confus3d
reply to post by jimmyx
 


I apologize if I sounded condecending toward you. I understand your complaint and feel your pain.
To answer your question I am older than you. You seem awful defensive though. I meant no harm. I have been in your shoes more than once and if I was not satisfied with my situation I moved on to another company if they wouldn't get me to where I needed to be. If I have to I will move to another city or state. My point is that we can not rely on business to take care of us. They do not care. In their eyes why should they pay you more money because the economy is crap. They did not run up your debt.
Also I don't care how old someone is, they can always better themselves in their job.
Sorry if I stepped on your toes man. No hard feelings I hope.
hey...i didn't mean to come off like that... i was in management for thrifty drugs during the 80's...if you still remember that name...and after 8 years finally became the store general manager. i had to fire people because of a variety of reasons, and it was never pleasent. and i have to admit that i have become bitter. and it is coming out now because of not recognizing or understanding that hard work and playing by the rules doesn't always move you forward. and don't get me wrong, i'm quite happy with where i'm at today. it's just that i grew up with a strong work ethic, and i, through my earlier years and naivete believed that would recognized.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by tacticaljay
reply to post by jimmyx
 


WHY DON'T COMPANIES PAY US MORE????? ARE YOU SERIOUS??? Not every company is a fortune 500 company. Actually most companies are small business' and the owners only have so much money. I agree with a few other people in this thread. If you want to earn more money get a real degree or better yet, start your own company and see what it is like to run one. Then you will have actual real life experience and will probably be able to answer your own question. Just my thoughts......
actually i have...it was called northvend... it was a soda and snack business, i started it, ran it myself, and paid taxes, worked depreciation schedules into 3,5,7 year segments, to take advantage of the writedowns on my business equipment...an aside...do you know that you have to pay "SALES" tax on "CRV" which stands for california redemption value or simply put, the pennies you get back for recycling aluminum cans. i as a business owner had to pay a tax on the cans recycling value. after 3 years, PEPSICO FOODS, which is the "food"division of pepsi- cola... signed on 60% of my customers, and why you ask...wasn't i able to compete? Pepsi furnished free soda for the first 6 months if the businesses signed a long term agreement for pepsi's machines, and PEPSI products to be sold exclusively. this eventually put me out of business. is that enough "real life" for you? what is amazing to me, is that everyone that complains is automatically assumed to be whiny, lazy, uneducated, or has a bad attitude. yet these same people are the ones that have the most to lose. if they upset their employers, they are gone. and yet, businesses recieve tax breaks, that according to governments own IRS records allowed some corporations to pay no income taxes at all. i am glad you are still able to "pull" yourself up by your own bootstraps and are still able to get ahead and get on with your life, but when you finally relize that the deck has long ago been stacked against you, one tends to want some real change that will benefit the majority of people in this country. after all...if you want to lve and work in a truely "FREE MARKET"...africa and southeast asia is where you should be, in some of those countries...you never have to worry about a middle class or "complaining workers", of course you'll have to pay bribes and "tokens" of good will to live and work there... but hey... that's where the true "free market" reigns supreme.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by McKennalite
 

i agree with you, MC, there are very rich people that have made it through inheritance, having the "right" parents, even shady business practices, and then turned around and dismissed those of us that have struggled all of our lives and have never been able to reach the wealth that they have achieved. and then the blame game starts, with insults to our charecter, our work ethic, our intelligence, our pitiful lack of understanding of how the "REAL WORLD" works. sometimes just being at the right place at the right time is all that is needed to achieve that type of wealth.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 04:11 PM
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This may already have been said...so sorry if I'm repeating, but companies can't keep up any more. So much is outsourced to our "cheaper labor" overseas "neighbors", the companies that don't outsource can't keep up with the demand.

If you haven't noticed, all your customer service phone calls are answered by someone in Inda. No offense to India here, but we need our jobs back here. Our men coming home from the service won't have a job to go to.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by Chakotay
 

And you think that in a socialist society, people would be paid more. I would suggest that you do some research on wages in socialist countries. In most of those you would find that almost everyone "earns" (I use that term loosely) about the same salary. Most socialist economies eventually collapse under their own weight of entitlements, and those that don't, have such a high income tax burden that there's nothing left to spend.
We have serious economic problems, I agree, such as job outsourcing, the weakening dollar, stagflation, and the list goes on. However, I hope you seriously don't believe that socialism will solve those problems, or enable people to be paid more.



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 05:08 AM
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"Most socialist economies eventually collapse under their own weight of entitlements, and those that don't, have such a high income tax burden that there's nothing left to spend."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

and this isn't happening in the US???

If companies would pay something a little closer to a living wage, fewer people would be eligible for those "entitlements", some of the burden would be lifted, and placed where it rightfully belongs. And, I'm sorry, but overall, it would cost less for the companies to pay a decent wage than it does for that money to journey through the government, with it hundred thousand or so social service workers!
I love it when people show their contempt for socialism, but then turn a blind eye when it's pointed out to them that we're in about the same predicament, and spiraling downward into socialism. the cost of living increases, the guidelines for the entitlements are adjusted (the wages that matter too often aren't), and more people are entitled, more people are on the programs, the costs go up! Programs that at one time were catering to families in around the $20,000 range now are catering to people in the $30,000 or more range.
Give it few years and it will be $40,000, then $50,000 and on and on.....



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 07:42 AM
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And so, here's a question; What is someone who is a single parent on terrible terms with their ex supposed to do to enable themselves and break free of the slavery?

That is a question I am sure that I, and many other people, might wish to know.

Or are single parents (Of which there are many) supposed to be satisfied that they screwed their life up and there is no helping them, and no hope for better?



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
And so, here's a question; What is someone who is a single parent on terrible terms with their ex supposed to do to enable themselves and break free of the slavery?

That is a question I am sure that I, and many other people, might wish to know.

Or are single parents (Of which there are many) supposed to be satisfied that they screwed their life up and there is no helping them, and no hope for better?

You know, this is going to sound harsh, but so be it. Too many young women want to date the "exciting, bad-boy type". They are more than willing to mate and produce kids with them, but then want to run to big-daddy government when, like everyone warned them, the bad-boy skips out on raising the kids. All the while "good guys" aren't "exciting enough" to be considered potential mates. I've seen I don't know how many decent, caring guys passed over, only to watch those same women, ahem, *date* bad-boy types.

Yes, they should be "in slavery" (in a metaphorical context). Maybe the high cost of those actions will put a damper on those activities when other women see the high cost of those actions.

And, just for those of you that are going to reply that I'm a "loser" who can't "hook-up" with a woman.... wrong. I long ago joined the "bad-boy" side. You wouldn't believe the amount of "female attention" I get now.

Sorry for the liberal amount of euphemisms. This is, after all, a "family friendly" site. ("Hey son, have you seen the new postings on ATS about alien anal probing?")



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 09:06 AM
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Corporations are like that fat SOB in that Monty Python sketch from "The Meaning of Life". They are gluttons who need more and more until they finally explode leaving innards and pollution and devastation in their wake.

Any honest successful person will acknowledge luck as being a huge factor in their success, especially in industries where simply having an education does not guarantee a well paid fulfilling career.

Putting in the hours and giving up all aspects of ones life other than work does not promise a favorable outcome. Anyone who uses that as the answer to the question of the OP must not understand where balance and enjoyment of life come into play.



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by sir_chancealot
You know, this is going to sound harsh, but so be it. Too many young women want to date the "exciting, bad-boy type". They are more than willing to mate and produce kids with them, but then want to run to big-daddy government when, like everyone warned them, the bad-boy skips out on raising the kids. All the while "good guys" aren't "exciting enough" to be considered potential mates. I've seen I don't know how many decent, caring guys passed over, only to watch those same women, ahem, *date* bad-boy types.

Yes, they should be "in slavery" (in a metaphorical context). Maybe the high cost of those actions will put a damper on those activities when other women see the high cost of those actions.


And what about single men who DON'T skip out on raising the kid, but are on terrible terms with their exes (As there are many of those as well)?

Rather than assign blame and accusation, what solutions would people suggest to "Win Big" in the game of life, when the deck has already been stacked against you?



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Chakotay
Why don't they pay us more?

Quod Possamus. Because they can.

Reasons why:

Americans are too stupid to vote socialist, and too lazy to have another revolution.

Maybe Barack Obama will change all that


That or its because of Jose paymeless and family who sneaks into the USA and will work for less as his family of 15 people and McCain will help him.



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 

I was a single parent of a 1 yr odl child with an alcoholic donkey-head of an ex husband. But even though i didnt speak to him for well over a year and a half I still got my child support, It wasnt an option, it was court ordered and if he didnt pay they wuld have garnished his wages.

I also took advantage of title 9 to get health care for him, used wic when he was on formula, (I couldnt breastfeed..not enough milk) and had help with childcare costs from DHS. I also took advantage of the angel food program which We still do the angel food program from time to time especially when my husband was between jobs, which isnt a handout, its buying in bulk by a whole lot of people at once and has a decent variety of different stuff for a really good price...

I highly recommend it. We actually paid for 6 months for my sister in law and brother in law for christmas to help them feed there respective kids and know that it was going towards food and not blown

This enabled me to leave an abusive situation, get a job, and a place to live and get established. Then when i no longer needed it I stopped recieving assistance of any kind, Without that help i would have been in a bad way so I am so thankful it was there, I do however take issue with straight welfare based on the number of children given to perfectly healthy adults for long periods of time. Stuff happens assistance can be a life saver in the short term but it needs to have more limits on it.




posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 

There are 3 imajor issues that are causing our economic problems, and your pain:

Issue 1.) Wages are lower than you would like- Here is a major reason- Companies can easily offshore outsource jobs, where the wages are low. Many of the countries (India, Pakistan, China, etc) have very low standards of living, have no or few labor standards, and thus, people there will accept much less.
A second reason that wages stay low is because companies can hire illegal aliens for much less than US citizens would work for. That creates a downward pressure on our standard of living.

Issue 2.) The war in Iraq has spiraled out of control from a cost perspective, running about $150,000,000,000.00 per year. That puts pressure on our budget, increasing the deficit, the fed then prints more money, which further erodes your buying power.

Issue 3.) Many illegal aliens are receiving welfare, medical benefits, even free education from government agencies. This, of course, hurts our economy and increases the deficit.

Now, before you say anything else, please be aware that I DETEST all of the above. Don't shoot the messenger. Please be aware, however, that socialism would do nothing to fix the situation. As an example, Cuba, which is a relatively poor country, sent thousands of troops to Angola, severely harming their economy. Likewise, many of the socialist countries have an illegal immigrant problem also.

If you want to direct your ire somewhere, direct it to congress and the administration, that have led to this problem (NAFTA, etc. and the desire for votes). Socialism does not encourage people to work hard and improve their lot. Remember the famous saying in the old Soviet Union-
We pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay us.
In this country, you can still get an education and better your lot. It isn't easy, but then again, if it were, everyone would do it, wouldn't they?




[edit on 11-2-2008 by ProfEmeritus]



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by rizla
What amazes me is that the same people being exploited are anti-union. Are people stupid? Are they controlled by the media.


Unions are a mixed blessing. The best example is the automotive industry. Unions do protect and benefit the employees, but it is at the expense of the product and the corporation. Now, if the corporation cannot make a profit, and cannot shake the union, then you will have strikes, loss of jobs, poor product quality, bad production efficiency, etc. All this ends up being pushed on the consumer who foots the bill. No one involved wants to lose anything so thats where the cost goes.

This is why it is difficult for anyone working an non-union job with the same skill sets cannot outright afford to go buy a new GM car, yet the same employee in a GM factory that is unionized could.

We have a Chrysler subsidiary where I live and the workers I see at the credit union routinely withdrawal $800 - $1000 cash when they deposit their checks weekly. GM is no different, I used to belong to a credit union that served a plant with GM guys there and they all have lots of disposable money. Eventually though, a union will destroy a company for the sake of the employees, which are a minority when it comes to the overall people employed in the US.


Unions didnt destroy the automotive industry, free trade did.

This country used to have protective tarrifs to protect us from slave wage products invading our country. But those protections have been erroded away thanks to our facist govt working hand in hand with corporations.

Personally Im totally in support of the OP's position. I understand the bitterness and I despise those posts who imply you arent working hard enough or need more education.

My story - I worked construction straight out of my release from the military. My pay never went up for 4 years straight but my rent sure did. I went from paying $600 a month to $1050 in that short time. I was broke all the time. I even took a part-time job at nights in the local mall radio shack.

During this time I also went to school at night at the community college. I got my 2 yr AA degree after many yrs but it did nothing t help my pay or get me bumped up into a forman position.

I got laid off several times between projects. And each time I was hired back I was given a smaller salary. I knew exactly why, because there were thousands of hatians, guatamalans, mexicans, and cubans eagerly waiting to work (and most were illegal). In 1993 when I left the military and went to work my salary was $14 per hr plus overtime pay and free medical coverage. 5+ years later and I was making $12 per hr, not as much overtime and I had to pay for much worse med coverage (we switched to an HMO)

I got married in 1999 and the added income allowed me to go to a 4yr college while still working two jobs. I graduated in 2001 with a BA in Advertising. I went for this major because at the time it was listed as the second hottest job market in America.

I assumed I would get a great job after I graduated. I would be one of those guys who wore a suit to work, talked on a cellphone, and didnt get sweaty ! It never happened.

I dont know if it was my age (35) or my lack of experience but I couldnt land a job in advertising, public relations, marketing, or any related field. The only job I got offered was from American Express as a financial consultant (which didnt pay a salary - commission based and required going to some school for certification). I turned it down.

I continued to work at radio shack until 9-11 killed the economy in my area. I lost my 2nd job within weeks of the 1st one. I spent 2 years looking for work. I even worked for one advertising agency for FREE for 3 months hoping to get work. They did eventually offer me a job as a secretary (i told them to kiss my a--).

My wife and I moved 4,000 miles across the country because she got a job offer here in Idaho. I hoped the move would allow me to find a job as well. After all, Im a college graduate.

We've been here 3 years and I havent found any employment at all. Ive even lowered my standards and applied to Target and Best Buy...I figured I was a shooin considering my 6 yrs of retail sales experience with radio shack. I never even got a phone call to tell me sorry.

Ive sent my resume everywhere. Ive signed up for all the monster.com websites. Ive hired a resume writing team to make a fantastic resume. Everytime we go t dinner with friends Im the annoying guy asking the other husbands if they can hook me up with a job.

Im so frustrated I cant stand it. Yes Im bitter too. I put myself $25,000 in debt to get that college degree and I cant get a dam job no matter what I try. And as the years go by Im even less employable. I have no references left to give as its been so long since i worked. The only jobs I even see in the classified ads are commission based garbage that ultimately wont even cover the cost to put my daughter in daycare while I go to work.

So I stay at home because I have no choice. Im a hard worker with an education and nobody will hire me. Welcome to the new world order



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 05:27 AM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 




-------------------------------------
"There are 3 imajor issues that are causing our economic problems, and your pain:"
-------------------------------------

Actually, we're better off than we've been in a long time. Our kids are gown. We've moved out of NY and left their insanity behind us. Where we are living, the state isn't so generous to the poor, our wages are higher, and taxes and the cost of living is lower. The only pain I have is in my body, probably caused by all the repetitive movements I've done at work through the years.... and now. And, well, I wouldn't have to even work if it wasn't for the danged healthcare system being so screwed up!!
Actually, it's more of a concern than a pain. If the trends keep going the way they are, our budget is gonna be so bloated with over half our population if not more on these social service programs and the tax base resting on so few, that well......they will have no choice but to cut these programs.

----------------------------------------------
"Issue 1.) Wages are lower than you would like- Here is a major reason- Companies can easily offshore outsource jobs, where the wages are low. Many of the countries (India, Pakistan, China, etc) have very low standards of living, have no or few labor standards, and thus, people there will accept much less.
A second reason that wages stay low is because companies can hire illegal aliens for much less than US citizens would work for. That creates a downward pressure on our standard of living."
---------------------------------------------


That's part of the problem, but then, our government seems to do more to encourage it than anything else. But, there's more at play. Many of our jobs cannot be outsourced, and there's many small businesses that don't really have the funds to outsource. Those wages have decreased or remained stagnant also. What's their excuse. And, more importantly, just where would any of these businesses be, corporate or small...without those social programs feeding their lower waged earners?
Look, it's become obvious that our government isn't gonna do squat about this. If we want to save our way of life, not to mention our freedoms, we are gonna have to dig down deep, and change the way we do things from the ground up. That just might mean that businesses, when they are debating hiring an illegal alien for minimum wage against hiring an american at a decent wage, well....maybe they should take the moral highground, say goodbye to a little of the profits and hire the american!! After all, by not doing so, they are either opting to move their business into countries where their assetts are far less secure or free, and well....they are helping to turn our country into something much similar. In the end, they are likely to suffer just as badly.


------------------------------------------
Issue 2.) The war in Iraq has spiraled out of control from a cost perspective, running about $150,000,000,000.00 per year. That puts pressure on our budget, increasing the deficit, the fed then prints more money, which further erodes your buying power.
-----------------------------------------


I knew we were in trouble when clinton was in office, early in Bush's first term, I knew our economy was blown!! The war was either started in hopes of pulling us out of the pit, or to be a temporary distraction. But, our economy would have kept it's downward spiral regardless.


------------------------------------------------
Issue 3.) Many illegal aliens are receiving welfare, medical benefits, even free education from government agencies. This, of course, hurts our economy and increases the deficit.
-----------------------------------------------

See above, NY, at least the part I was at, really didn't have an illegal problem. Wages were still stagnant or falling....the problems were obvious to anyone who really looked to see!


----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, before you say anything else, please be aware that I DETEST all of the above. Don't shoot the messenger. Please be aware, however, that socialism would do nothing to fix the situation. As an example, Cuba, which is a relatively poor country, sent thousands of troops to Angola, severely harming their economy. Likewise, many of the socialist countries have an illegal immigrant problem also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


And, all I am trying to say, is that we are heading in that direction!! Quite quickly now!!! Regardless of what you or I want!!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you want to direct your ire somewhere, direct it to congress and the administration, that have led to this problem (NAFTA, etc. and the desire for votes). Socialism does not encourage people to work hard and improve their lot. Remember the famous saying in the old Soviet Union-
We pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay us."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I've already direct my ire at the government, during the clinton years....gave up on them. Now, I am turning my attention to those that really have the power! THE PEOPLE!! We could stop this economy in it's tracks if we just managed to get the people together and working toward the same goal. We certainly could stop this government from enslaving us all!


-------------------------------------------------------------
In this country, you can still get an education and better your lot. It isn't easy, but then again, if it were, everyone would do it, wouldn't they?
------------------------------------------------------------

I'm fifty years old, and have three boys, if anyone's getting the education they are!! Besides, me personally getting an education won't do squat to fix the problem...the company I am working for will just hire someone else...at least my family can hold it's own without that education. Their's might not, and thus, theirs might find themselves draining the system more. They're the ones needing the higher paying job, let them do what is necessary to get it. Personally, I think it's a waste to spend m oney and resources educating someone who have only 20 years at the most in the workforce!
But, like I said, It won't help the situation in the long run, we will still be going down at an accelarated pace, with the end being more and more socialism holding the people up. In the long run, that education will not help most of those who opt to get it!



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