Originally posted by jrod
To each his own lilman, but in the real world real people believe in religion and knowing what their faith teaches and what they practice is fundamental in understanding their culture. Knowing religion is not ignorant.

Not everyone is going to be a secularist, and not everyone understands the secularists ideals. A good mind can look at the world and easily see a world with and with out God. I see it as looking through a different dimension when I look at the world through different ideals.

Knowing religion does not mean believing religion. Theology is not the problem here!

There are no "good minds" only minds subjectively judged as good from the point of view of another. But yes, I understand what you mean. Based on what you yourself said, do you agree that there are ignorant people and there are those who DENY ignorance. However, to deny that one is indeed ignorant, when he is, is to deny that which is real!

Ignorance comes in different "levels", as some people may be open minded in one respect, but refuse to acknowledge reality in another. However, some people are more ignorant than others when their mind "as a whole" is taken under consideration.

Religion, is FOUNDED on ignorance, without ignorance religion would not exist. To deny that religious people are ignorant and believe lies, is to deny that which is true.

Faith is believing without seeing which I guess is what lilblam is saying is ignorant.

Finding answers for yourselves is the best way to gain knowledge IMO.

Faith is what it is, some will never have it. I believe it is an awesome human emotion.

Originally posted by Jonna
I am both with and against lilblam on this one. There is nothing wrong with pondering the workings of things; this is how we eventually discover the truth behind their existence. Every truth or fact began with a belief in a theory so as you can see belief if vital to our evolution.

False. Theories do not need to be believed to be tested. Every truth began with acknowledgement that something is POSSIBLE, not the belief of same.

However, the problem arises when we take our beliefs as fact without evidence.


Person 1: I have a belief that I can create flying machine.
Person 2: That is crazy! If we were meant to fly then we would have wings.
Person 1 (years later): I have created a plane out of machanical parts and have proved that my belief was true.

Person 1: I think it may be possible to build a flying machine. I don't BELIEVE it is, but I don't see WHY NOT either, so it's OPEN - I think I'll go FIND OUT.

Person 2: You're wasting your time!

Person 1 (years later): Well I tried it, and now we have jets. I was open minded, but you chose to BELIEVE.

When Person 1 first had this idea/belief/theory it was not a fact; that required the proof that he had years later. A belief is a growing step in understanding and not an end unto itself.

Originally posted by jrod
Faith is believing without seeing which I guess is what lilblam is saying is ignorant.

Finding answers for yourselves is the best way to gain knowledge IMO.

Faith is what it is, some will never have it. I believe it is an awesome human emotion.

It's not an emotion. It's a service-to-self quality, because it serves you and nobody else to have "faith" or "believe". Wonderful is subjective, so it is irrelavant!

Until you can KNOW one way or another, everything is possible. Belief that it's NOT possible is irrelavant, and believe that it IS possible is also irrelavant. It either IS, or it's not! If you have an idea, do you need to BELIEVE that it's true before you go test and see if it is? Not really...

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by jrod
Faith is believing without seeing which I guess is what lilblam is saying is ignorant. [/qoute]

More like believing as fact without proof of its validity.

Finding answers for yourselves is the best way to gain knowledge IMO.

I don't think that anyone is arguing with that statement, but instead believing in answers without the proof to claim that they are fact.

Faith is what it is, some will never have it. I believe it is an awesome human emotion.

Faith is what is???? I don't understand what it is that you mean, but I don't think that I would classify faith as an emotion. It seems to be more of a type of belief system.

My gripe with religion is it closes peoples minds off(not everyone who practices it). To be successful and see what make the world happen you have to look at everything with an open mind. Closed mindedness is the problem.

Faith or 'Belief' is the Provoker of Emotion.

Originally posted by lilblam


False sense of security, if you think it's good, that's your choice. If you believe in something that's not real, and think that it's great, that's your choice. However, some choose to DENY ignorance, and actually choose to KNOW. Others only believe and assume because ignorance is bliss to them!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

That coming from someone who believes that a shicophrenic woman is channeling info from Cassiopeans... yes, belief, because there is no way in hell you can actually prove it.

People KNEW in dark ages that the earth was flat. They KNEW based on their knowledge that is the truth, to them earth was flat. It couldnt be round, people on the other side would fall off. Based on their knowledge about universe that was very true. Except they were not familiar with concept of gravity and that you cant actually fall off the planet. See the point???
How do you know that you know enough? From your point of view (your opinion NOT the absolute truth) you see the proof for non-existence of God. BUT in reality you might be completely utterly wrong because you lack that very important piece of knowledge you are not even aware that it exists.

Arguments about existence of God are philosophy, not science. In science you have proof, experiments, visible tangible proof that something exists or doesn't exist, formulas, equations. Earth is not flat because we have tons of real tangible evidence proving that earth is round.
Religion is opinion, personal belief, point of view.
You cant prove the existence or non-existence of God based on your personal logic or opinion, and thats all you have here, YOUR OPINION, nothing more.

Originally posted by Sapphire
Faith or 'Belief' is the Provoker of Emotion.

Attachment is also!

Will everyone here agree if I say "Belief doesn't make something TRUE"?

What makes something TRUE? Well, if it is TRUE then it's true, and if it's not, then it's not. What is the point to believe ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, until you can actually find out and KNOW? Maybe to make yourself feel better or smarter than you actually are? What's the purpose of believing something before you KNOW it is true, or before you KNOW it's NOT true?

Originally posted by Shugo
blam... once again... you need to show more... because I'm lookin at this and I know for a fact that Christianity has more proof of God than there ever will be of no God. So lil... take your half-arse crazy ideas and shove em.[\quote]

BLAM! So, once again no proof posted, just claims. I'm a philosopher, and every single other philosopher I know KNOWS there has never been proof of a god. I suppose you consider the bible proof of god's existence? Try philosophy out for a change rather than listening to whatever your preacher or pastor or priest is rambling about. Oh, and you can take YOUR crazy brainwashing and shove it... HAHA!

1) You bash other religions to complete nothingness.
2) You "attempt" to prove something you really can't.
3) Your idea's are so out in the blue, I can't even begin to imagine them.
4) You piss me off, you piss everyone else off with these ideas of yours.

My thoughts:
1) God does exist.
2) Your crazy.
3) THERE HAS BEEN NO ALIEN CONTACT!

First, I'm definitly standing in lib's defense. First, I bash other people's religions alot harder than lib... do I get any recognition?!? NO! Thanks a bunch. (remember, in every joke, there is truth! Am I joking, or not? ). Lib is definitly better at explaining things than I am, and our ideas almost always have parallel. They actually have basis to them, too... and we actually used our minds to think instead of regurgitate the crap ideals that are forced on the world.

Lib doesn't piss me off, except when he brings up a better argument than mine (lol... I don't hold it against lib though... I just get mad because I didn't think of it first). This makes your statement a complete fallacy. Chalk another one up for Philosophy.

1) I don't believe in the existence of a creator of the universe... not saying flat out that god doesn't exist, but I have seen more SOLID proof against his existence than for.

2) Yeah, I think lib might be crazy too... I THINK, not I KNOW. Stupidity and ignorance make intelligent people crazy.

3) No alien contact, you say? So, you're saying that because you have never been in contact with an alien that noone else has? Fallacy. You should open up your perception of the world a bit more. Science isn't all it's cracked up to be, and if you're going off of religious basis for this statement, you're utterly and completely brainwashed.

Originally posted by Cardu
Why not discuss what the real god could be?
If there exists some type of God it could be
1. more powerful energy(soul) than us
2. the (God) energy got the job to give us(smaller energies(souls)) flesh.
3. There are maybe 1 big (God) energy in each universe
4. remember this energy are not any Human thing ore something other intelligent thing we could refer to
5. Maybe we actually got a “source code”…
Just some small thoughts

I know that in my posts on the non-existence of god, I usually try to at least hint to other possibilities. I just haven't been able to find any way to prove that a creator of this universe exists. I think that there may be a higher being, but not so much more almighty than us... maybe just the most evolutionarily advanced being in the universe, but not all-knowing and all-powerful.

Originally posted by Durandal
Look,

The only reason anything exists is the simple fact that we are here to perceive it.

The only reason we are here to perceive anything is the simple fact that we exist.

there is nothing else.

through probability, in an infinite number of universes, down an infinite timeline, we have come into being. there is no other explanation.

everything exsists as it is because it exists as it is.

stop torturing yourselves and denying your own basic instincts.

-Durandal

Ahh... finally, decent philosophy... not the best, but it is good argument.

Originally posted by lilblam
False. Theories do not need to be believed to be tested. Every truth began with acknowledgement that something is POSSIBLE, not the belief of same.

Well you do put a strange spin on things my friend. There must be an idea (belief that it could work) to construct a theory from. Then the theory is tested, but before it is tested it is only a belief that it might just prove valid when tested. Perhaps we are just defining a belief and possibility differnetly.

A person believes in a theory before it is tested to be fact; they believe that it may be possible and so test it.

How is it determined when you know enough, is it quantitative? Most of all, KNOWING is a destination that when you arrive, who decides that you've arrived? All This KNOWING is based upon what?
The universe sends us new information daily. Science creates and solves new problems. How can you KNOW? Isn't your knowing based on assumptions
Liblam, If knowledge is "all that is" do you honestly think you've obtained "all that is" about the workings of the universe. That is what's needed to make such statements that god isn't possible. You don't know, you believe just like everybody else

through probability, in an infinite number of universes, down an infinite timeline, we have come into being. there is no other explanation.

This is my reasoning when i think of a world without god. For me it is the closest thing to proof of a godless universe.

Originally posted by paperclip
That coming from someone who believes that a shicophrenic woman is channeling info from Cassiopeans... yes, belief, because there is no way in hell you can actually prove it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I think that you were just channeling dreamrebel.

Originally posted by paperclip

Originally posted by lilblam


False sense of security, if you think it's good, that's your choice. If you believe in something that's not real, and think that it's great, that's your choice. However, some choose to DENY ignorance, and actually choose to KNOW. Others only believe and assume because ignorance is bliss to them!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

That coming from someone who believes that a shicophrenic woman is channeling info from Cassiopeans... yes, belief, because there is no way in hell you can actually prove it.

I don't believe it! Why would you assume such a thing?

People KNEW in dark ages that the earth was flat.

No, they assumed/believed. Once again, irrelavancy of belief is seen here.

They KNEW based on their knowledge that is the truth, to them earth was flat.

No, they assumed based on everything BUT knowledge. LATER they developed KNOWLEDGE of what Earth is really like, and only THEN did they know.

It couldnt be round, people on the other side would fall off. Based on their knowledge about universe that was very true.

Based on their ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS about the universe, which is NOT knowledge. Later we developed KNOWLEDGE about gravity, and THEN we knew that it was FALSE! Before we know, there is no reason to believe, else a lie may spread such as "flat earth" assumption.

Except they were not familiar with concept of gravity and that you cant actually fall off the planet. See the point???

Do you?

How do you know that you know enough? From your point of view (your opinion NOT the absolute truth) you see the proof for non-existence of God.

To YOU and everyone else it is my opinion. To me, it is absolutely knowledge. If I say that 1+1=2 it is ALSO my opinion if you do not KNOW this! This doesn't say anything about whether it's true, until you choose to FIND OUT yourself! Until you do, EVERYTHING is someone else's opinion.

BUT in reality you might be completely utterly wrong because you lack that very important piece of knowledge you are not even aware that it exists.

Not if I KNOW it already. I'm not assuming or believing, as people did that the Earth was flat, and they lacked the little piece of knowledge about gravity. Assumptions/Belief/Wishful thinking will get ya every time!

Now people KNOW the Earth is round, though not everyone still knows.

Arguments about existence of God are philosophy, not science. In science you have proof, experiments, visible tangible proof that something exists or doesn't exist, formulas, equations. Earth is not flat because we have tons of real tangible evidence proving that earth is round.

Right, we have EVIDENCE (tangible or intangible, as math is intangible).

Religion is opinion, personal belief, point of view.
You cant prove the existence or non-existence of God based on your personal logic or opinion, and thats all you have here, YOUR OPINION, nothing more.

If I say the Earth is round, it's still MY OPINION isn't it, until you ALSO know this fact, if I show you all the EVIDENCE. But I cannot show you the evidence, until you choose to go SEE the evidence, even if it means flying around the planet a few times.

The same thing goes for God. I may KNOW something, but for you it will always be opinion because you do not KNOW the same thing, and until you CHOOSE to SEE instead of BELIEVE, you will never know it.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by lilblam
False. Theories do not need to be believed to be tested. Every truth began with acknowledgement that something is POSSIBLE, not the belief of same.

Well you do put a strange spin on things my friend. There must be an idea (belief that it could work) to construct a theory from. Then the theory is tested, but before it is tested it is only a belief that it might just prove valid when tested. Perhaps we are just defining a belief and possibility differnetly.

A person believes in a theory before it is tested to be fact; they believe that it may be possible and so test it.

Yup I think we are defining it differently. To me, belief is a conviction that something is true before you KNOW whether it is. An idea doesn't mean you KNOW it's true, an idea just means you accept the POSSIBILITY that it CAN be true, but you do not PRETEND that it's true before you find out!

And yeah, how often have people argued when they are actually misinterpreting each other's definitions of certain words?

Like ironically, before anyone can argue for or against the existance of God, one must define precisely what God should be, otherwise there can be no argument!

I’m sorry you feel the way you do lilblam. Religion and the bible inspired more people to do good than any other single thing in history. It has inspired social movements that have led people to risk their lives to create a more just world. Such inspiration has led people to take apart the walls that have divided humanity and to seek a better understanding of our place in the world. It teaches tolerance, and compassion. It tells us how to live a healthy life in an unhealthy world. The bible shows us the pitfalls of man: Greed, Pride, Envy, Lust and the devastating wake these things can do to our lives. It has prompted feeding the hungry, peacemaking and non-violence strategies, caring for the poor, the sick and the vulnerable, as well as critiquing unjust economic, social or political systems. What more can we ask? I won’t argue against your disbelief in God it is your own personal choice. So don’t believe in God, but you should believe in the bible.

Originally posted by KSoze
How is it determined when you know enough, is it quantitative? Most of all, KNOWING is a destination that when you arrive, who decides that you've arrived? All This KNOWING is based upon what?
The universe sends us new information daily. Science creates and solves new problems. How can you KNOW? Isn't your knowing based on assumptions
Liblam, If knowledge is "all that is" do you honestly think you've obtained "all that is" about the workings of the universe. That is what's needed to make such statements that god isn't possible. You don't know, you believe just like everybody else

Alright, if you see that something contradicts itself, doesn't that mean that some part of it is false? If the definition of God contradicts what is POSSIBLE, doesn't that mean it's fasle?

For example: Can God make a stone that he cannot lift?

Unless that contradiction is dealt with, we cannot go further. So how do you answer that and STILL maintain that he is GOD? Unless you redefine what God's qualities SHOULD BE. And once again, the devil is in the details. It's all about how you DEFINE God, because the word GOD by itself has many meanings to many people. So before we can "argue" for or against "His" existance, what do you define God to be?

Originally posted by Jonna
However, the problem arises when we take our beliefs as fact without evidence.

lilblam---Yep! Replace my beliefs for your ideas in the above sentence and you get the same thing.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I’m sorry you feel the way you do lilblam. Religion and the bible inspired more people to do good than any other single thing in history. It has inspired social movements that have led people to risk their lives to create a more just world. Such inspiration has led people to take apart the walls that have divided humanity and to seek a better understanding of our place in the world. It teaches tolerance, and compassion. It tells us how to live a healthy life in an unhealthy world. The bible shows us the pitfalls of man: Greed, Pride, Envy, Lust and the devastating wake these things can do to our lives. It has prompted feeding the hungry, peacemaking and non-violence strategies, caring for the poor, the sick and the vulnerable, as well as critiquing unjust economic, social or political systems. What more can we ask? I won’t argue against your disbelief in God it is your own personal choice. So don’t believe in God, but you should believe in the bible.

Oh crap! You best be careful with a statement like that in this thread. Religion and the bible have created more persicution and murder in the name of god then any other sourse as well.