Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

Originally posted by paperclip
I quote lilblam :

Proof doesn't exist, only knowledge

Then why the hell did you call this topic "Proof That God Doesn't Exist", if there is no such thing as proof?

Does seeing the truth means seeing the world like you see it? If not, then why the very clear aditude in your posts "open your eyes and see it like I see it, cause what you see is wrong". Do you see the world like it really is? If you don't know everything there is to know, you can't see the existance like it really is, you lack information to do it. Therefore, conclusions based on such premise cannot be called the ultimate TRUTH. It can very well be that God exists,and you can't understand that, so you create a thought experiment to "prove" your theory. You are ignoring the possibility that God's existence is NOT limited or determined by our logic and perception of universe, which is based on incomplete data... or do you want to tell me that you know EVERYTHING? Because only that way you can be absolutely sure that what you are saying is the TRUTH.

We don't know everything, we still can't explain what matter is, we can't explain gravity, we can't explain black holes, we still only have theories about creation of universe.... maybe because we are ignoring one important element... God maybe? You can say "how do you know it is God?" well, how do you know it isnt? Wouldn't it be foolish to dismiss the POSIBILITY of existence of something, just because we cant fully explain it or comprehend it? Or because our logic is maybe flawed and incomplete?

I am not the one who claims to have seen the TRUTH or gained ultimate knowledge of everything or God or whatever, so the burden of proof is not on me. It is on you, and you still haven't presented something valuable besides flawed logic, philosophy and contradictions. Very interesting philosophy, but flawed.

Oh and I did not see "the miracle" with my eyes... there are many ways of seeing things....

Exactly. Why did he call this topic that? Proof does exist. If i tell you i have a cat and you dont belive me and i take you to my house and show it to you then thats proof of something.

flawed is the best explanation ive heard yet paperclip....
it is hard for those living in finite to understand what is beyond finite and this leads to flawed rationalizations

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by infinite
lilblam, the bible codes are not random bits of text, the codes are accurate. There are many in this world we don't know alot about and people choose to believe i.e Aliens,ghost, shadow government and plots to take over the world,yet most of those cannot be proved 100% and yet people believe.

At least there's evidence that points to those things. What evidence points to GOD? If you see something you don't understand, why automatically attribute it to GOD and call it a miracle? Why not just try to understand it and learn it?

If its nothing of human nature why cant it be God? So if an almost sinless person VERY close to God is dying and he already isnt breathing for like 15 minutes and then he suddently wakes up ok and well and asks for water then that not God? Then what is it? The desiease cant be cured so its something that has to be learned? Whats to learn? Its a rare desiase thats a lot if known about abd no cure to. So when the person is almost dead the deasese just goes away? No its God. He made the deasese go away he helped the person he made a miracle.
(desease thing hypothetacly speaking. "The desease" isnt real).



[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

Originally posted by paperclip
I quote lilblam :

Proof doesn't exist, only knowledge

Then why the hell did you call this topic "Proof That God Doesn't Exist", if there is no such thing as proof?

Gets attention

Does seeing the truth means seeing the world like you see it?

No, I see the world subjectively, just as anyone else at this level. I however search for the truth, and try to come as close to the truth as I can as much as possible, WHATEVER the truth may be. I have no pretedermined conclusion and then I set out to PROVE that assumption. I didn't DECIDE that God doesn't exist and then go and see how I can prove it. On the contary, I believed he DID exist until I decided to stop believing and FIND OUT. Well I did.

If not, then why the very clear aditude in your posts "open your eyes and see it like I see it, cause what you see is wrong".

Not see with your eyes, but with your mind.

Do you see the world like it really is?

Only bits and pieces.

If you don't know everything there is to know, you can't see the existance like it really is, you lack information to do it.

You don't have to know everything to know something.

Therefore, conclusions based on such premise cannot be called the ultimate TRUTH.

Some things ARE ultimately true, if the parameters are narrow enough and the definition is restricted. What are we arguing here anyway, what GOD? The Creator of all that there is? Well then he exists, because there is a creator of everything. But this doesn't necessarily mean what it may appear to mean.

It can very well be that God exists,and you can't understand that, so you create a thought experiment to "prove" your theory.

Perhaps it's the opposite? I'm actually TRYING to understand, and this understanding has led me to SOLID conclusions (Not like Bush's SOLID evidence for WMD's!) based on absolute facts. You don't have to know everything to know something, and when you KNOW, it is not an assumption or a belief, but truth. If it's not truth, then it's not knowledge.

You are ignoring the possibility that God's existence is NOT limited or determined by our logic and perception of universe, which is based on incomplete data... or do you want to tell me that you know EVERYTHING?

But the idea of God was created using our limited little minds, so therefore he must be limited to such. If he's not, then it's a contradiction. Look:

I declare that God exists, but because he is beyond human comprehension, you can never use your LOGIC to disprove my declaration. He exists because I declared it using my mind, but he is beyond my mind and therefore you cannot say that he doesn't exist using anything YOUR mind can come up with.

What's wrong with this declaration? First you declare that something exists, then you say it is beyond our understanding. If it is beyond our understanding, how could YOU know it exists?

Because only that way you can be absolutely sure that what you are saying is the TRUTH.

Some things you can be sure of, without knowing other things. 1+1 IS 2, and I don't have to know calculus to understand.

We don't know everything, we still can't explain what matter is, we can't explain gravity, we can't explain black holes, we still only have theories about creation of universe.... maybe because we are ignoring one important element... God maybe?

God is not an element that you can ignore. Because he only exists when you dream him up and believe he does. What I mean is, if you see something you don't understand, you can explain it very easily each time: Must be GOD!

You won't learn much with this thought process...

You can say "how do you know it is God?" well, how do you know it isnt?

Then I ask, what IS God? Before you can know if it IS God or not, you must have an idea of what GOD is then!

You can't say, we don't know what God is, but he exists. All that exists must be defined as something, otherwise it is nothing.

Wouldn't it be foolish to dismiss the POSIBILITY of existence of something, just because we cant fully explain it or comprehend it?

There exist infinity of things that we cannot explain and comprehend, but why explain everything by saying "It must be God". Where would this lead you? Where did it lead the people of 500 years ago, where EVERYTHING was a miracle to them, ALL was work of God until science showed precisely WHAT was causing this?

Lightning was God too once. Once again, you may say, what if lightning IS God? Then I'm asking, what do you define GOD to be? You cannot throw around a WORD without applying it to something, can you?

Or because our logic is maybe flawed and incomplete?

All there is is lessons. This is why you have a mind. Mathematics are the one, true language of the universe.

I am not the one who claims to have seen the TRUTH or gained ultimate knowledge of everything or God or whatever, so the burden of proof is not on me.

Precisely, it never IS on you. It's always on someone else. But if you PERSONALLY do not go out and seek the truth, you shall NEVER know it. This is always a personal initiative by the individual, there are no exceptions. You only know what you CHOOSE to know.

It is on you, and you still haven't presented something valuable besides flawed logic, philosophy and contradictions.

Show me the flaw, or contradiction of my logic. Be specific please.

Very interesting philosophy, but flawed.

Flawed where? Please point out specifically the flaw!

Oh and I did not see "the miracle" with my eyes... there are many ways of seeing things....

Yes there are, and they are only MIRACLES if you have no knowledge of what they were. Lightning used to be a miracle too. So was rain.

Then I ask, what IS God?

The creator our father... havent i already anwsered that!?!?!?!?!?!

Originally posted by AD5673

Then I ask, what IS God?

The creator our father... havent i already anwsered that!?!?!?!?!?!

Then he exists. Unless there's anything ELSE that you'd like to attribute to God of course...

Well then i guess he does huh? I belive that it's you im trying to prove it to.

God: a Creator of universe, a Higher Being not limited with physical body, and flawed human brain. A Being who besides this Earth and the universe we see, also created the world which comes after this one. A Creator of souls. A being with many atributes, all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, etc, etc.

What God is made of, nobody on this planet knows, where God is nobody knows, how exactly does he think nobody knows, how many universes has he created nobody knows, HOW did he do it nobody knows... we lack a lot of information about him to exactly define God. Maybe there is a reason for that. We have been given this life to learn about this existence, about the universe we see, hear, feel, smell. After we are done with that lesson we move on to next one, Afterlife and God.
I do not have all answers to all questions, and the only way to get a glimpse of what God is, is to observe what he has created. The Universe and all in it.

So, that was the "deffinition" of God.

Now, this is an endless discussion. Lilblam will repeat the "philosophy of certain uncertainty" lol to call it that way: "there is no truth , but I see the truth", "there is no proof, but I'll prove to you that god doesnt exist", "you dont have to see the things like I do, you have to see the truth" followed by "you dont see the truth because you dont follow my pattern of thoughts", "i know ", "i dont know", etc etc, etc, etc.
Religious people will state their truth, that God exists.
It will go on and on and on with same arguments.
I have stated mine already, including reasons why lilblam's logic here is flawed, so I won't repeat it over and over again. Everybody has the right to their own belief and truth, and there is no one on this earth who can claim with absolute certainty that their opinion regarding religion is 100% true objectively, and that others are wrong. Period.

Those who truly believe in God, and "see" him in the things he has created, no thought experiment based on other people's opinions can convince them that he doesn't exist. That goes vice versa of course.

So, my final words in this discussion:
Belief in God does not make me blind to facts of science and their explanations, I am a scientist, I dont think that god is pissing rain or something like that, those are stupid examples which aply to middle ages but not to the year 2004.
Belief in God opens my mind to something beyond limitations of our brain. It does not deny reality, it makes it even bigger and better with a lot more things to explore and learn.

where God is nobody knows

We do know. He is in heaven living in hapiness with the people there.

I agree with paperclip.

We do know. He is in heaven living in hapiness with the people there.

How can you say that with such certainty?

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

We do know. He is in heaven living in hapiness with the people there.

How can you say that with such certainty?

Deep

Belief makes one "certain" of anything one desires. Try it! I believe there's a flying gorilla over my house right now. In fact, I think that gorilla was sent by Satan to destroy me! Let me go grab my slingshot...

Don't ask me silly questions like "How do you know", it's called FAITH! Some people have it, some don't.

I have it, and I believe in flying gorillas from hell. Faith is a wonderful thing if you ask me! It's the greatestestest thing ever!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by AD5673

But once I know something as FACT, it would be very stupid of me to pretend I do not

Then tell me how do you know God does not exist? Yes i also think you are an inteligent person very smart, and you will try anything to get what you want. Ambitious. But hell is iminent for you.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

I certainly hope it's warmer than it's in my room right now!

Read the beginning of this thread, then read my post about TIME. Put 2 and 2 together. Also, think extensively, and maybe you'll figure it out. You don't need tangible evidence to know, that is why you have a mind.

sounds like you are trying to convert people liblam. Thats not cool. If there is one thing i can't stand its people trying to impose their personal beliefs upon someone else. That singular idea has started countless wars and conflicts. I hate it when somebody has the audacity to say that their opinion is the correct one, whether they are religious or not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Absolutely everyone is wrong, and i dont pretend to know what is right. different things are right for different people/cultures.

thats almost as bad as those damned jehova's witnesses.

-Durandal

ps i hate missionaries (sure they do good work and help people, but for crap's sake let them keep their own belief system.)

Originally posted by paperclip
God: a Creator of universe, a Higher Being not limited with physical body, and flawed human brain. A Being who besides this Earth and the universe we see, also created the world which comes after this one. A Creator of souls. A being with many atributes, all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, etc, etc.

Which would make that EVERYTHING. If your definition does not define all that exists, then it's creating a contradiction.

What God is made of, nobody on this planet knows, where God is nobody knows, how exactly does he think nobody knows, how many universes has he created nobody knows, HOW did he do it nobody knows... we lack a lot of information about him to exactly define God. Maybe there is a reason for that. We have been given this life to learn about this existence, about the universe we see, hear, feel, smell. After we are done with that lesson we move on to next one, Afterlife and God.
I do not have all answers to all questions, and the only way to get a glimpse of what God is, is to observe what he has created. The Universe and all in it.

So, that was the "deffinition" of God.

Now, this is an endless discussion. Lilblam will repeat the "philosophy of certain uncertainty" lol to call it that way: "there is no truth , but I see the truth", "there is no proof, but I'll prove to you that god doesnt exist", "you dont have to see the things like I do, you have to see the truth" followed by "you dont see the truth because you dont follow my pattern of thoughts", "i know ", "i dont know", etc etc, etc, etc.

Lie #1: I never said there is no truth, as the mere existance of anything means truth exists.

Lie #2: I never said you have to see anything. It's your choice what you want to see!

Lie #3: I never said my pattern of thoughts was required to see the truth.

Also, proof as such doesn't exist, it was just a catchy title.

Religious people will state their truth, that God exists.

Keyword: THEIR. Truth is universal, it exists regardless of whether you believe it or know it. Any time someone applies "ownership" to a truth, then it becomes subjective, and therefore NOT truth.

It will go on and on and on with same arguments.

You cannot make a blind man see by giving him verbal descriptions. He must choose to open his eyes and look for himself.

I have stated mine already, including reasons why lilblam's logic here is flawed, so I won't repeat it over and over again.

Just saying something is flawed doesn't mean it's flawed. Did you happen to mention specifics? Take what I said point by point and demonstrate the FLAW?

Everybody has the right to their own belief and truth, and there is no one on this earth who can claim with absolute certainty that their opinion regarding religion is 100% true objectively, and that others are wrong. Period.

This doesn't mean that someone cannot have 100% certainty and truly have knowledge of what IS in that regard. Of course, it will always be lies and false for those who disagree with him because they fail to see by their own choice, and will always be only "his opinion" for those same ones.

Those who truly believe in God, and "see" him in the things he has created, no thought experiment based on other people's opinions can convince them that he doesn't exist.

Such is the power of belief. Once you believe something strong enough, no amount of logic or "reality checks" will convince you. Belief has a strong hold on the blind and weak-minded.

That goes vice versa of course.

So, my final words in this discussion:
Belief in God does not make me blind to facts of science and their explanations, I am a scientist, I dont think that god is pissing rain or something like that, those are stupid examples which aply to middle ages but not to the year 2004.

Yes in 2004 we have new and improved lies and illusions, that fit with "modern thought". Big difference!

Belief in God opens my mind to something beyond limitations of our brain. It does not deny reality, it makes it even bigger and better with a lot more things to explore and learn.

And if there IS no God that you believe in, it matters not for you. What's important is that you believe that there IS! Once again, it actually CLOSES your mind in this respect. You didn't say you KNOW God exists, you said you believe. Nothing will ever "prove" to you that he may not, because you choose to ignore logic and rationality, which are the only tools our mind has.

Originally posted by Durandal
sounds like you are trying to convert people liblam. Thats not cool.

Cool is subjective. I'm not, that's a false assumption. If something made you think this way, please quote!

If there is one thing i can't stand its people trying to impose their personal beliefs upon someone else.

Maybe you should learn to deal with it, as that's a fact of life on this planet. Otherwise, you won't be able to "stand" many situations.

However, I'm not imposing anything on anyone. If you think I am, please tell me what makes you think this.

That singular idea has started countless wars and conflicts. I hate it when somebody has the audacity to say that their opinion is the correct one, whether they are religious or not.

Hate away. Does your "hating" make his opinion INCORRECT? No, just adds stress to you! Learn to control your emotions perhaps, instead of being controlled by them?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Absolutely everyone is wrong, and i dont pretend to know what is right.

How can that be? If truth exists, then SOMEONE is right. Maybe not on this message board, but on some reality, at some "time", someWHERE, someone is right. Unless you KNOW that I am wrong, then you're making big assumptions here that you cannot back up.

different things are right for different people/cultures.
thats almost as bad as those damned jehova's witnesses.

-Durandal

ps i hate missionaries (sure they do good work and help people, but for crap's sake let them keep their own belief system.)

You seem to hate a lot of things. Maybe you'd want to work that out for yourself to make your life less stressful?

Bad is subjective. Thanks for your comments!

i believe that there is a god but none of the world's religion teaches how to follow him correctly. there are way too many human influences in creating those religions that u don't know what real or not. so currently, i guess u can say that i'm a god-believing atheist

P.S. and just for the record, i had 420 ATS points while typing this! TIME TO GET OUT BILLY BONG THORTON! WOOHOO!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by silQ]

i have died and seen the energy that lilblam claims is gone. and yes it is there. ten thousand dark silent faces. eyes watching as you drift onwards.


god is not one but many and not many but all


and everything

the faces where to see and to feel and to listen to perceive, but mostly feel to where it is that i or anyone must go.

ok i admit i did read the first two post. sorry lilblam.





i do not believe that our immediate creator is god. the beings that designed the human race are not the holy ghost nor the great unseen(whose power is most certainly being utilized althought it is not alway apparent to human eyes)



peace




LILBLam for president




[Edited on 4/14/2004 by panchovilla]

Hmm I have 16666 points, I must be the anti-christ! *notes*

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Durandal
sounds like you are trying to convert people liblam. Thats not cool.

Cool is subjective. I'm not, that's a false assumption. If something made you think this way, please quote!

If there is one thing i can't stand its people trying to impose their personal beliefs upon someone else.

Maybe you should learn to deal with it, as that's a fact of life on this planet. Otherwise, you won't be able to "stand" many situations.

However, I'm not imposing anything on anyone. If you think I am, please tell me what makes you think this.

That singular idea has started countless wars and conflicts. I hate it when somebody has the audacity to say that their opinion is the correct one, whether they are religious or not.

Hate away. Does your "hating" make his opinion INCORRECT? No, just adds stress to you! Learn to control your emotions perhaps, instead of being controlled by them?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Absolutely everyone is wrong, and i dont pretend to know what is right.

How can that be? If truth exists, then SOMEONE is right. Maybe not on this message board, but on some reality, at some "time", someWHERE, someone is right. Unless you KNOW that I am wrong, then you're making big assumptions here that you cannot back up.

different things are right for different people/cultures.
thats almost as bad as those damned jehova's witnesses.

-Durandal

ps i hate missionaries (sure they do good work and help people, but for crap's sake let them keep their own belief system.)

You seem to hate a lot of things. Maybe you'd want to work that out for yourself to make your life less stressful?

Bad is subjective. Thanks for your comments!

I see you like to play wordgames, a common refuge of the immature. If you lack the analytical skills and perspective to look at what you posted and realize that you are imposing your... well www.jovialathiest.com's beliefs' on others, then perhaps you should go back and actually read what you posted unless you copy/pasted that too from another source.

I find it funny that you say that I am making huge assumptions that i cannot backup. That is the essence of your topic.

I do like your veiled attacks on my post and my supposed lack of self-control, so maybe I used some strong words, those words and their meanings are subjective. I do have a suggestion tho, maybe you should attack the actual content of my comments and not just the words 'cool', 'hate', and 'bad.'

I am probably the most laid back person you'd meet. You seem to assume that I have a problem with controlling my emotions and my stress level. I am willing to bet that my stress level is lower that any teenage angst, or common civillian man, and I am in Baghdad getting mortared and rocketed and shot at multiple times weekly. Believe me when I say I have my stress level under control, as well as my emotions.

Respectfully yours,
-Durandal

*it said i was the most laid person... that is probably not true, I meant laid back.

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by Durandal]