Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by AD5673
liblam if you dont belive in God and trying so hard to prove that he doesnt exist, then tell me where did everything come from? And dont tell my some crap about a big bang. I've herd enough of that!!

AD5673 if you do belive in God and are trying so hard to prove that he does exist, then tell me where did everything come from? And don't tell my some crap about a bible. I've heard enough of that!!

No offence! I'm just playing dawg!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by Jonna]

(Dont call me a "dawg")
Who do you suppose wrote the Bible? Churches in the mideveal times? Yes maybe they edtited it but there is evdince everywhere that what is written in the Bible is true. For example the tower of Babylon. God does exist and if you dont belive that you'll just find out when your dead in hell.

Im saying that there is a God because when i was little 5 i was lying down with my grandma and she was teaching me The God's Prayer (a prayer from the Bible), and when i looked out the window i saw and image of Jesus, and Mary when Jesus was a baby. Like an orthadox icon, and i said to my grandma look theres Jesus look. And she didnt see it. She kept on saying where and i said to her it's out the window but she didnt see it, and then it disappered. This isnt the only sign that i saw from God i saw two more, and i saw demons once. That's how i know there is a God and that he is watching over me.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

Originally posted by UM_Fearfulone
read one book...."The Science of God" by: Gerald Schroeder...this will LOGICALLY through scientific data proove God DOES exist.

I would have to say that Unified Reality Theory is the best book written on proving a god thing through logic. The funny thing is that I don't think the author ever refers to it as god, but instead just as unified reality.

Originally posted by AD5673
Who do you suppose wrote the Bible? Churches in the mideveal times? Yes maybe they edtited it but there is evdince everywhere that what is written in the Bible is true. For example the tower of Babylon. God does exist and if you dont belive that you'll just find out when your dead in hell, or if you see demons on your bed one fine night craliwng around.

Thank you AD5673, this is what i've been trying to point out with the bible codes and a little bit here. You cannot brush the bible off as a book of fairy tales because its FACT. The bible and God is such a complex thing that it is highly impossible that it was just someones brainchild because there is too much evidence to prove its fact. The bible is written in codes and there are many ways to interpet it meanings for example the mark of the beast is a common riddle.

Originally posted by paperclip
hehe, lilblam, your posts are quite amusing.
I know, in my own mind and soul that God exists, because I've seen things, and I've felt things. In my own understanding of universe, everything makes more sense if there is a God, soul, afterlife. But I can't prove it to others because there is no 100% sure objective proof that God exists.

Soul yes. Afterlife yes. God no.

You can choose to take the leap of faith, or you can choose not to. What you choose affects your PERCEPTION of reality, not reality itself ( lol, one could argue with certain physicsts of today even about that).

Ah yes. So do you want to PERCEIVE reality as it truly is, or do you only want to perceive what you WANT reality to be?

You claim that you can prove to others that God doesnt exist, yet there have been many disproofs of your THEORY in this thread and in others, starting with your basic premise, and something that Jonna has mentioned "This brings up the question of are the methods that we use currently to prove facts also fallible?". You based your "proof" on thought experiment, THE most falible method there is, because it is not based on objective facts, but subjective opinion, logic and point of view.

Thought is all that exists. Everything else is illusion for purposes of lessons. ALL that there is, is a thought experiment. You are someone else's illusion.
Also, proof does not exist. Only knowledge. You cannot prove or disprove anythign to anyone, it is their choice whether to SEE what IS, or not. No belief or assumption is involved. SEEING doesn't mean visual, which is our current observation of reality, which is an illusion.

To you your disproof makes sense, to somebody else whos logic and understanding of God differ from yours, your thought experiment doesnt make sense.

Yup, but the truth exists whether it makes sense or doesn't. The only thing we can really do to know it, is to try to FIND IT and try to understand it, by expanding our awareness. Others choose to stagnate where they are, with beliefs and assumptions - it's their choice and their lessons to learn.

So, until we actually find something that says to everybody with 100% certainty " there is God" or "there is no God" ( like we can prove without a doubt that the Earth is round), these discussions will always be the same: not very conclusive

yet still quite an interesting pass-time activity.

Such a thing shall never exist. Those who choose to know, will know, and everyone else will never see or udnerstand, until THEY also choose to know. Belief is not involved in this. Proof doesn't exist, only knowledge.

Oh one more thing, clarify one thing for me. I have noticed in your posts that you seem to thing that belief in God and afterlife somehow makes people completely oblivious to this world and uncapable to gain real knowledge.

Always capable, but they make the choice to BELIEVE instead. Choice always exists whether one is aware of it or not. Awareness is the KEY to everything. Your belief might be the TRUTH, but it's not the truth BECAUSE you believe it! You can have a pretty good idea, you may be ALMOST sure that it's true, but does this merit belief?

I strongly disagree with that. The fact that I believe in higher being, a Creator, and afterlife didn't stop me from acquiring an MD in pharmacy, and learning a LOT about how this universe works, amongst many many other things I have learned, huge amount of knowledge about THIS life.

If you believed that MD in pharmacy doesn't exist, does this mean you cannot get it? I think you're missing the point. You can believe there is a wall in front of you, but look and see nothing anyway. You can believe there IS no wall, but there may be a wall. In fact, there may be a wall but you just don't see it.

If you believe one thing, it doesn't stop you from learning other things, or even THAT VERY THING, but once you LEARN about it, you no longer have to believe, since now you'll KNOW. However, belief often (not always, depending on how strong the belief is) does prevent people from learning the truth, because they cling to their beliefs no matter WHAT, and no matter how much evidence they arep resented with to the contrary. This is the danger, but it's also a choice, and a lesson.

The belief in life AFTER this one didn't stop me in my quest for knowledge and information.

But you cannot believe and know the same thing at the same time. It's either or. By believing it, you can fool yourself into thinking that you KNOW IT (like the flat-earth idea), and stop yourself from actually searching for the truth.

There is a difference between being CURIOUS about the truth, and searching for it. If you were searching for it, you would've found it by now. Apparently, you're only curious, but your belief is "good enough" to hold you over until someone shows up and drops the truth on your lap. Such won't happen, and THAT is the lesson.

I consider belief in God to be the highest form of "deny ignorance", because it is what it IS, an uncertain leap of faith, when your limited senses are telling you it is not there; ignorance thriving from our own limitation of mind, of our own limitation of perception of the whole existence, that ignorance is denied when you BELIEVE.

But by pretending and imagining something, you do not gain real knowledge, only pretend knowledge. You didn't LEARN anything new, you're still just as oblivious and confused about reality as you were BEFORE, but now you also have a belief added. To deny ignorance, you'd seek knowledge. Belief only says "I'll pretend I know something, to make myself feel like I'm denying ignorance. It doesn't matter if it's true or not!".

Belief is assumption, and you know what happens when you assume, or have you not learned that lesson yet?

Knowledge and an open mind to receive knowledge is denying ignorance. Belief is not knowledge, and therefore has no substance. Knowledge is ALL substance, and is all there is. Belief is delusion and wishful thinking - hoping that something is true doesn't make it true (or untrue).

Seeing "miracles" isn't proof of God, it's just evidence that there's something out there that you don't understand or have knowledge of!

Therefore, if you think you are escaping your "limitation and lack of knowledge" by believing, and therefore denying ignorance in this way, you are only lying to yourself. Assumption is not knowledge. Neither is belief.

And when you truly believe, you will SEE too

Of course, those who believe can pretend to see anything they want, as belief is just "pretend seeing". Yup, if I believed, I'd see anything I'd wanna see.

I chose to see objective reality as it TRULY IS instead of coming up with my own version of it. But what you do is your choice.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by AD5673

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by UM_Fearfulone
read one book...."The Science of God" by: Gerald Schroeder...this will LOGICALLY through scientific data proove God DOES exist.

What does this book define God to be?

God is a creator, our father. He created everything.

That's true, but he also happens to BE everything, right?

Originally posted by AD5673
Im saying that there is a God because when i was little 5 i was lying down with my grandma and she was teaching me The God's Prayer (a prayer from the Bible), and when i looked out the window i saw and image of Jesus, and Mary when Jesus was a baby. Like an orthadox icon, and i said to my grandma look theres Jesus look. And she didnt see it. She kept on saying where and i said to her it's out the window but she didnt see it, and then it disappered. This isnt the only sign that i saw from God i saw two more, and i saw demons once. That's how i know there is a God and that he is watching over me.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

Can you now see what kind of delusion belief creates? Good. Glad you learned that lesson at 5 years old. Wait, you didn't learn it yet! Gosh darnit!

Anyway, it could've been either your own mind creating this image OR some alien trying to make you think there's a God using high-tech technology. Any number of possibilities!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by AD5673
Who do you suppose wrote the Bible? Churches in the mideveal times? Yes maybe they edtited it but there is evdince everywhere that what is written in the Bible is true. For example the tower of Babylon. God does exist and if you dont belive that you'll just find out when your dead in hell, or if you see demons on your bed one fine night craliwng around.

Thank you AD5673, this is what i've been trying to point out with the bible codes and a little bit here. You cannot brush the bible off as a book of fairy tales because its FACT. The bible and God is such a complex thing that it is highly impossible that it was just someones brainchild because there is too much evidence to prove its fact. The bible is written in codes and there are many ways to interpet it meanings for example the mark of the beast is a common riddle.

I can write in codes too.

Yes you can, but not as complex as the bible. Can you write codes in text, which have believed to predicted future events?? I think not.I admire you alot, your a very intelligent person but at the end of the day as a non believer you will try everything to disprove ,whereas i will do everything to prove. Either you have faith or you don't, its that simple.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by infinite]

Originally posted by AD5673
(Dont call me a "dawg")
Who do you suppose wrote the Bible? Churches in the mideveal times? Yes maybe they edtited it but there is evdince everywhere that what is written in the Bible is true. For example the tower of Babylon. God does exist and if you dont belive that you'll just find out when your dead in hell.

Wow! Someone is a bit cranky today. God says that man is fallible, correct? Well if man physically wrote the bible then isn't it possible that the bible is also fallible? And just to note: Ranting at people how they are going to die and go to hell is not exactly proper debate edicate. And being that I never said I was an athiest, your attack seems a bit unwarrented.

Oh ya and:

Get a sense of humor!

Originally posted by infinite
Yes you can, but not as complex as the bible.

Assuming are we? Check WWI and WWII army communication codes. Way more complex than Bible!
Besides, any fat book has codes if you want it to, the same ones you found in the Bible can be found in many other books just as easily.

Can you write codes in text, which have believed to predicted future events?? I think not.

Many Bible codes were obviously false. Many Bible passages contradict one another. Also, the Bible promotes slavery. And you think religion is something other than a form of control?

I admire you alot, your a very intelligent person but at the end of the day as a non believer you will try everything to disprove ,whereas i will do everything to prove.

Wrong, I will try everything to know the truth. I don't have an assumption for what it SHOULD be, I'm being open minded about everything. But once I know something as FACT, it would be very stupid of me to pretend I do not. I question all my knowledge every day, and it re-affirms itself completely each time with each new "thing" I learn.

Either you have faith or you don't, its that simple.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by infinite]

Yes, either you deny ignorance or you don't. It is that simple.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by AD5673
(Dont call me a "dawg")
Who do you suppose wrote the Bible? Churches in the mideveal times? Yes maybe they edtited it but there is evdince everywhere that what is written in the Bible is true. For example the tower of Babylon. God does exist and if you dont belive that you'll just find out when your dead in hell.

Wow! Someone is a bit cranky today. God says that man is fallible, correct? Well if man physically wrote the bible then isn't it possible that the bible is also fallible? And just to note: Ranting at people how they are going to die and go to hell is not exactly proper debate edicate. And being that I never said I was an athiest, your attack seems a bit unwarrented.

Oh ya and:

Get a sense of humor!

Infallibility is in the eyes of the beholder.

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by AD5673
Im saying that there is a God because when i was little 5 i was lying down with my grandma and she was teaching me The God's Prayer (a prayer from the Bible), and when i looked out the window i saw and image of Jesus, and Mary when Jesus was a baby. Like an orthadox icon, and i said to my grandma look theres Jesus look. And she didnt see it. She kept on saying where and i said to her it's out the window but she didnt see it, and then it disappered. This isnt the only sign that i saw from God i saw two more, and i saw demons once. That's how i know there is a God and that he is watching over me.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

Can you now see what kind of delusion belief creates? Good. Glad you learned that lesson at 5 years old. Wait, you didn't learn it yet! Gosh darnit!

Anyway, it could've been either your own mind creating this image OR some alien trying to make you think there's a God using high-tech technology. Any number of possibilities!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

No it was no dream.



[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by KSoze
How is it determined when you know enough, is it quantitative? Most of all, KNOWING is a destination that when you arrive, who decides that you've arrived? All This KNOWING is based upon what?
The universe sends us new information daily. Science creates and solves new problems. How can you KNOW? Isn't your knowing based on assumptions
Liblam, If knowledge is "all that is" do you honestly think you've obtained "all that is" about the workings of the universe. That is what's needed to make such statements that god isn't possible. You don't know, you believe just like everybody else

Alright, if you see that something contradicts itself, doesn't that mean that some part of it is false? If the definition of God contradicts what is POSSIBLE, doesn't that mean it's fasle?

For example: Can God make a stone that he cannot lift?

Unless that contradiction is dealt with, we cannot go further. So how do you answer that and STILL maintain that he is GOD? Unless you redefine what God's qualities SHOULD BE. And once again, the devil is in the details. It's all about how you DEFINE God, because the word GOD by itself has many meanings to many people. So before we can "argue" for or against "His" existance, what do you define God to be?

First, how does infinity create something larger than infinity. This makes the statement self-contradictory if you assume god is infinity. God can't create a triangle shaped like a circle either, so what. There lots of stuff god can't do if you look at it like this.
You failed to answer the question: when you arrive at KNOWING, who is it that decides you've arrived. You think you've arrived at "all that is"...these riddles and logic games are far from "all that is."
One thought, if god is all powerful; could he ever decide to become non-all powerful?

lilblam, the bible codes are not random bits of text, the codes are accurate. There are many in this world we don't know alot about and people choose to believe i.e Aliens,ghost, shadow government and plots to take over the world,yet most of those cannot be proved 100% and yet people believe.

Originally posted by KSoze

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by KSoze
How is it determined when you know enough, is it quantitative? Most of all, KNOWING is a destination that when you arrive, who decides that you've arrived? All This KNOWING is based upon what?
The universe sends us new information daily. Science creates and solves new problems. How can you KNOW? Isn't your knowing based on assumptions
Liblam, If knowledge is "all that is" do you honestly think you've obtained "all that is" about the workings of the universe. That is what's needed to make such statements that god isn't possible. You don't know, you believe just like everybody else

Alright, if you see that something contradicts itself, doesn't that mean that some part of it is false? If the definition of God contradicts what is POSSIBLE, doesn't that mean it's fasle?

For example: Can God make a stone that he cannot lift?

Unless that contradiction is dealt with, we cannot go further. So how do you answer that and STILL maintain that he is GOD? Unless you redefine what God's qualities SHOULD BE. And once again, the devil is in the details. It's all about how you DEFINE God, because the word GOD by itself has many meanings to many people. So before we can "argue" for or against "His" existance, what do you define God to be?

First, how does infinity create something larger than infinity. This makes the statement self-contradictory if you assume god is infinity. God can't create a triangle shaped like a circle either, so what. There lots of stuff god can't do if you look at it like this.
You failed to answer the question: when you arrive at KNOWING, who is it that decides you've arrived. You think you've arrived at "all that is"...these riddles and logic games are far from "all that is."
One thought, if god is all powerful; could he ever decide to become non-all powerful?

If he can do ANYTHING then yes

I quote lilblam :

Proof doesn't exist, only knowledge

Then why the hell did you call this topic "Proof That God Doesn't Exist", if there is no such thing as proof?

Does seeing the truth means seeing the world like you see it? If not, then why the very clear aditude in your posts "open your eyes and see it like I see it, cause what you see is wrong". Do you see the world like it really is? If you don't know everything there is to know, you can't see the existance like it really is, you lack information to do it. Therefore, conclusions based on such premise cannot be called the ultimate TRUTH. It can very well be that God exists,and you can't understand that, so you create a thought experiment to "prove" your theory. You are ignoring the possibility that God's existence is NOT limited or determined by our logic and perception of universe, which is based on incomplete data... or do you want to tell me that you know EVERYTHING? Because only that way you can be absolutely sure that what you are saying is the TRUTH.

We don't know everything, we still can't explain what matter is, we can't explain gravity, we can't explain black holes, we still only have theories about creation of universe.... maybe because we are ignoring one important element... God maybe? You can say "how do you know it is God?" well, how do you know it isnt? Wouldn't it be foolish to dismiss the POSIBILITY of existence of something, just because we cant fully explain it or comprehend it? Or because our logic is maybe flawed and incomplete?

I am not the one who claims to have seen the TRUTH or gained ultimate knowledge of everything or God or whatever, so the burden of proof is not on me. It is on you, and you still haven't presented something valuable besides flawed logic, philosophy and contradictions. Very interesting philosophy, but flawed.

Oh and I did not see "the miracle" with my eyes... there are many ways of seeing things....

The �God� from the Bible Exists but it�s only Extraterrestrials�
your beliefs are mixed up with not accurate information. Clean your mind first, if you are infected�

Edit: Loughs Out Loud� you guys Really are Experts *twisting Words*.


[Edited on 14-4-2004 by Cardu]

But once I know something as FACT, it would be very stupid of me to pretend I do not

Then tell me how do you know God does not exist? Yes i also think you are an inteligent person very smart, and you will try anything to get what you want. Ambitious. But hell is iminent for you.

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by AD5673]

Originally posted by infinite
lilblam, the bible codes are not random bits of text, the codes are accurate. There are many in this world we don't know alot about and people choose to believe i.e Aliens,ghost, shadow government and plots to take over the world,yet most of those cannot be proved 100% and yet people believe.

At least there's evidence that points to those things. What evidence points to GOD? If you see something you don't understand, why automatically attribute it to GOD and call it a miracle? Why not just try to understand it and learn it?