Originally posted by KSoze
I tell you if I had invented a god...he'd been okay with all the things of the flesh...because all of it either feels good or looks good...I wouldn't invent somebody that prohibits any of it...
it seems if god was created, we created something that has a problem with some of our own natural desires...which doesn't make any sense...why create something that's difficult (impossible) to please...
If he was simply created then what could have been their logic. to explain the unexplainable I guess. otherwise, why wouldn't a person want to be the supreme power, why include god. I guess we'll never know...

If you finish everything you say with "I guess we'll never know" then you won't.

consider this:

God or what ever you want to call it is beyond the phantasmagorical universe....beyond phenounmena...
beyond rationalization ...beyond logic...beyond the beyond...............................................beyond infinty.
beyond words or beyond you giving such a thing a name

Well everything doesn't constitute one post liblam...I was simply referring to the original people that dreamed up the concept of god (if you believe that he was dreamed up)...how will you go about KNOWING what they were thinking when they came up with the concept...

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
consider this:

God or what ever you want to call it is beyond the phantasmagorical universe....beyond phenounmena...
beyond rationalization ...beyond logic...beyond the beyond...............................................beyond infinty.
beyond words or beyond you giving such a thing a name

I can come up with anything and say "It's beyond absolutely everything, so u'd never know! It's beyond your mind!"

Yes you'd have to be out of your mind to explain something with what you just said, and think that means that it most likely exists, but since it's beyond absolutely everything, nothing could ever know of its existance. Write a sci-fi novel why don't ya!

Originally posted by KSoze
Well everything doesn't constitute one post liblam...I was simply referring to the original people that dreamed up the concept of god (if you believe that he was dreamed up)...how will you go about KNOWING what they were thinking when they came up with the concept...

Have you ever read "Lord of the Rings"? How's that different from the Bible

The point: We have a great imagination. We have many reasons to come up with things. Sometimes we see real things and confuse them for something else.

Imagine seeing a UFO 2000 years ago, and "miracles" everywhere. Great, there's your God now!

Although we have no idea what precisely caused the idea of GOD, the ruler/creator of the universe and a conscious entity at that to come about, it didn't stop us from murdering millions and creating huge religions in the name of this.. idea. Humans are so adorable sometimes ;P

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by KSoze
I was simply referring to the original people that dreamed up the concept of god (if you believe that he was dreamed up)...how will you go about KNOWING what they were thinking when they came up with the concept...

I have heard it said that the concept of god originally began with fetish worship (the idea that a battle axe, for example, contained the spirit of a war god when it was victorious in battle and thus worshipped as such). A single god was created as a unifying force for all these other fetish gods. As for your question, we will never know what those were thinking because we are not them just as I could never truly know what you are thinking unless you tell me first hand.

Gravity is God, omni-everything, responsible for everything.

Arguing over existance like this is such a waste. You'll never find answers with trying to disprove 0 exists.

it may be that god is beyond the phantasmagorical physical universe ....why is that so hard to grasp and why would it constitute writing a sci fi novel

some of the greatest sci fi writers of the past have come up with what is science fact today....

if you want to rationalize god out of existence more power to you....
only by plumbing the depths within will you prove to your self wether something exists or not ...if you dont want to believe that ....thats fine ....ive already proved it to my self so it no longer is theory for me

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
it may be that god is beyond the phantasmagorical physical universe ....why is that so hard to grasp and why would it constitute writing a sci fi novel

some of the greatest sci fi writers of the past have come up with what is science fact today....

if you want to rationalize god out of existence more power to you....
only by plumbing the depths within will you prove to your self wether something exists or not ...if you dont want to believe that ....thats fine ....ive already proved it to my self so it no longer is theory for me

If you define God as something undefinable, then what is God?

Once again, why create extra names for things that already have names? Unless God is something that's separate from everything else... that THAT would be false and contradicting reality.

All I said was, you can make anything up in your mind and say "It exists because I say so, and just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist".

This would be both, true and false. True because everything that can possibly exist does. It would be false if what you said is not possible, and therefore it won't exist. Is GOD possible? No, because God is a contradiction, and contradictions do not share a reality.


[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
it may be that god is beyond the phantasmagorical physical universe ....why is that so hard to grasp and why would it constitute writing a sci fi novel

Because the things that have become science-fact are things that we have created. God being on the 'outside' can not be created and so is not the same thing as say a lazer beam.

if you want to rationalize god out of existence more power to you....
only by plumbing the depths within will you prove to your self wether something exists or not ...if you dont want to believe that ....thats fine ....ive already proved it to my self so it no longer is theory for me

You just answered your own question. God is something that you believe and that does not have to do anything with proving it. You proved it to yourself because you want to believe it and nothing more. You can not prove it to anyone else and that is the point!

For the sake of argument let me say that I do believe in a god thing. I believe it with so much conviction that it seems to become part of my reality. However, I could never prove my belief to anyone else because belief does not equal proof.

God cannot be proven or disproven to exist. It's all a matter of faith. I didn't bother reading all the posts because I probably already know what they'll say. You can't give someone a reason to abandon their faith, it doesn't work like that which is a good thing. It's all a matter of faith, if you have none, you won't believe in God, but if you do, then you will. It's a pointless argument that will go in circles for all eternity. So why bother? And what do you have against people believing in somthing bigger than themselves? It's only uplifting to think there's someone up there looking out for you.

And because belief doesn't equal reality.. not objective reality anyway. You can believe anything you wish, but the more you believe, the less you KNOW. Knowledge and belief do NOT co-exist. Either you believe it, or you know it, or neither. If you are so afraid of NOT KNOWING something, then go ahead and pretend you know it anyway! No one's stopping you. But this won't have absolutely any effect on what truly IS.

Originally posted by LostProphet
God cannot be proven or disproven to exist. It's all a matter of faith. I didn't bother reading all the posts because I probably already know what they'll say. You can't give someone a reason to abandon their faith, it doesn't work like that which is a good thing. It's all a matter of faith, if you have none, you won't believe in God, but if you do, then you will. It's a pointless argument that will go in circles for all eternity. So why bother? And what do you have against people believing in somthing bigger than themselves? It's only uplifting to think there's someone up there looking out for you.

False sense of security, if you think it's good, that's your choice. If you believe in something that's not real, and think that it's great, that's your choice. However, some choose to DENY ignorance, and actually choose to KNOW. Others only believe and assume because ignorance is bliss to them!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by lilblam]

Believing in God, goodness, religion, faith DOES NOT make some one ignorant.

Originally posted by jrod
Believing in God, goodness, religion, faith DOES NOT make some one ignorant.

Belief is absence of knowledge, it is the conviction that something is true without knowing if it is. That's ignorance.

Your always talking about knowledge. Well, maybe god isn't possible to you because you don't know enough, you don't have enough knowledge. Do you know everything because you know something?

I'm not talking about religious knowledge. I'm talking about not knowing enough about the universe

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by KSoze]

Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by infinite
Someone once said "If God doesn't exist, why invent such a thing?"

Thats the question i put to the non-believers.

I am not sure what you mean by that statement. Do you mean that if God does not exist, where did the idea come from? Please explain what you feel.

right, if there is no such thing as God of god's then why would we need to invent such a idea and where would this idea come from??
Would someone wake up and go "Oh i no, lets tell people that some high being created the world and write a book about him". Something this complex cannot just be some idea to keep us in control.

Originally posted by KSoze
Your always talking about knowledge. Well, maybe god isn't possible to you because you don't know enough, you don't have enough knowledge. Do you know everything because you know something?

Knowledge is all that is. God is not possible when you know ENOUGH and clearly see this, it requires not assumption or belief. If you do NOT know enough, you do not KNOW if God is possible, and you are forced with a choice: Believe it ANYWAY, or not. Either choice will not alter what IS.

God is not POSSIBLE precisely because I know enough! If you know something, you only know that which you know, not that which you do not know! To know everything is to be everything! If I did NOT know enough, I could not say with certainty whether God is possible or not. The ideas of God that are presented here are NOT possible, but absolutely everything depends on the DEFINITION! If you define God as ALL THAT IS, then there's no way this can be impossible!

So once again, the only time I can say if something is possible or not, is when I KNOW enough to assert such. If I do not, then I'm forced to either believe or not believe, and if I choose belief then I choose IGNORANCE, as I now PRETEND to know, instead of trying to find out!

To each his own lilman, but in the real world real people believe in religion and knowing what their faith teaches and what they practice is fundamental in understanding their culture. Knowing religion is not ignorant.

Not everyone is going to be a secularist, and not everyone understands the secularists ideals. A good mind can look at the world and easily see a world with and with out God. I see it as looking through a different dimension when I look at the world through different ideals.

I am both with and against lilblam on this one. There is nothing wrong with pondering the workings of things; this is how we eventually discover the truth behind their existence. Every truth or fact began with a belief in a theory so as you can see belief if vital to our evolution. However, the problem arises when we take our beliefs as fact without evidence.


Person 1: I have a belief that I can create flying machine.
Person 2: That is crazy! If we were meant to fly then we would have wings.
Person 1 (years later): I have created a plane out of machanical parts and have proved that my belief was true.

When Person 1 first had this idea/belief/theory it was not a fact; that required the proof that he had years later. A belief is a growing step in understanding and not an end unto itself.