Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

LOL! @ Jonna

lilblam, thank you for proving my point. It is your opinion, you are right, it is not the truth. You KNOW that God doesn't exist, the same way I KNOW that God exists. I see God where you don't see him. I have the advantage there, I've seen miracles, you haven't. You lack that very important piece of puzzle, which shatters everything you KNOW into little pieces. So my knowledge will only be an opinion to you, until you open your eyes and learn what i KNOW, then you will see the TRUTH, the real KNOWLEDGE about the existence of God. Oh and it is pointless to break my post sentence by sentence so it loses every meaning, thats a very known old trick.

From our perspective, people in dark ages believed the earth was flat, from their perspective they KNEW, they were really convinced that they KNEW.
From my perspective, your disproof of Gods existence is only your opinion, a false opinion, because I KNOW God exists.
From your perspective my belief is false, and your opinion in KNOWLEDGE.
Notice the pattern there?

Oh, a question, did that woman really channel info from Cassiopeans? Very simple question, knowledge either is or isnt in your words. So, whats it gonna be here? Did she do it or not?

Originally posted by kinglizard
I�m sorry you feel the way you do lilblam. Religion and the bible inspired more people to do good than any other single thing in history.

Good is subjective. Some people would say the opposite, that it inspired more people to do EVIL. It all depends on how one defines good and evil.

It has inspired social movements that have led people to risk their lives to create a more just world.

Morality is not absolute, it's subjective, and there are many arguments and debates for what is moral and what is not.

Such inspiration has led people to take apart the walls that have divided humanity and to seek a better understanding of our place in the world.

Religion IS what divides humanity. How many bloody wars and massacres and corrupt governments have ruled over people using religion? How many nations fought because they believed in different Gods? Once again, what is GOOD to you may not be so for another. It's subjective!

It teaches tolerance, and compassion. It tells us how to live a healthy life in an unhealthy world.

Why would you say the world is unhealthy? You fit in this world, you live the air it provides, drink its waters, and eat the food it provides. Define unhealthy please, because I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by that word in this context.

The bible shows us the pitfalls of man: Greed, Pride, Envy, Lust and the devastating wake these things can do to our lives.

If the Bible was ALL lies, it would be harder to swallow. Best way to present lies, is lie-sandwiches. A lie in between 2 truths is easier to swallow.

It has prompted feeding the hungry, peacemaking and non-violence strategies, caring for the poor, the sick and the vulnerable, as well as critiquing unjust economic, social or political systems. What more can we ask?

It also promotes BELIEF, which is assumption that something is true without knowing it. It promotes OBEDIENCE, so that we're obedient and do as we're told by our "religions" and the authorities of same. It also promotes DIVISION, where people who believe different religions have much problems getting along, if you pay attention to history and read the news every day. It also promotes NOT-THINKING but leaving everything to some invisible entity, "God", and pretending you're not responsible for your own actions.

NONE of the things you or I mentioned are GOOD or BAD, but they are all lessons.

I won�t argue against your disbelief in God it is your own personal choice.

Yup, choice to KNOW instead of believe - this goes for everything in my life, not just God.

So don�t believe in God, but you should believe in the bible.

So I SHOULD believe in the Bible? Because you say so? Once again, you're trying to tell me what to do, and this is what I've said about religion above: It thinks it knows what you SHOULD do and what you should NOT do, and if you do not do as those religious people think you SHOULD do, then wars and fights start. Think 9/11.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by Jonna
However, the problem arises when we take our beliefs as fact without evidence.

lilblam---Yep! Replace my beliefs for your ideas in the above sentence and you get the same thing.

Idea is a THOUGHT, it's creativity. You think: "Hey, what if we can fly?". You don't think: "Hmm I believe humans will one day fly!".

Subtle difference, but very important one.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by kinglizard
I�m sorry you feel the way you do lilblam. Religion and the bible inspired more people to do good than any other single thing in history. It has inspired social movements that have led people to risk their lives to create a more just world. Such inspiration has led people to take apart the walls that have divided humanity and to seek a better understanding of our place in the world. It teaches tolerance, and compassion. It tells us how to live a healthy life in an unhealthy world. The bible shows us the pitfalls of man: Greed, Pride, Envy, Lust and the devastating wake these things can do to our lives. It has prompted feeding the hungry, peacemaking and non-violence strategies, caring for the poor, the sick and the vulnerable, as well as critiquing unjust economic, social or political systems. What more can we ask? I won�t argue against your disbelief in God it is your own personal choice. So don�t believe in God, but you should believe in the bible.

Oh crap! You best be careful with a statement like that in this thread. Religion and the bible have created more persicution and murder in the name of god then any other sourse as well.

I agree that the bible has been used to persecute and used as an excuse to murder, but the teachings in the bible do not condone these things. It teaches us to love everyone equally as if they were God. The bibles interpretation can be perverted to suit someone�s beliefs, not unlike what�s happening in this thread. Then the perverted view of the bible is used to validate evil acts that go against the word of God.

Originally posted by paperclip
LOL! @ Jonna

lilblam, thank you for proving my point. It is your opinion, you are right, it is not the truth. You KNOW that God doesn't exist, the same way I KNOW that God exists.

Really, you DO? Or do you BELIEVE it?

I see God where you don't see him. I have the advantage there, I've seen miracles, you haven't.

You can see a miracle in EVERYTHING if you want. Miracles are only miracles to those who do not have knowledge. EVERYTHING in the 20th century is a miracle for those from the 17th century. See? I choose knowledge, you choose miracles.

You lack that very important piece of puzzle, which shatters everything you KNOW into little pieces.

Oh, does it now? And what is that?

So my knowledge will only be an opinion to you, until you open your eyes and learn what i KNOW, then you will see the TRUTH, the real KNOWLEDGE about the existence of God.

But you believe, not know. Fine, tell me, how do you define God? How do you know that you're not mistaking God for something else? Once again, I have absolute KNOWLEDGE that certain definitions of God are false, because they are contradictions. I do not BELIEVE it like you do!

Oh and it is pointless to break my post sentence by sentence so it loses every meaning, thats a very known old trick.

I call this trick: Precision. I like to answer every point that you make, as you make so many! I'm glad you know this trick, I'd appreciate it if you used it on me too, it would really make things more clear!

From our perspective, people in dark ages believed the earth was flat, from their perspective they KNEW, they were really convinced that they KNEW.

No, they assumed/believed. You cannot be convinced that you know, you either know or you don't. Being CONVINCED that you know is still belief. I think you're not understanding what KNOWING means. Conviction is not knowledge!

From my perspective, your disproof of Gods existence is only your opinion, a false opinion, because I KNOW God exists.

And how do you know that? You are making an assumption that he exists, please back it up with facts and logic. Otherwise, it remains an assumption, and will be irrelavant. I backed up what I said. Your turn.

From your perspective my belief is false, and your opinion in KNOWLEDGE.
Notice the pattern there?

Yes, you have a closed mind, and it's throwing around assumption after assumption in a continuous pattern of self-delusion.

Oh, a question, did that woman really channel info from Cassiopeans? Very simple question, knowledge either is or isnt in your words. So, whats it gonna be here? Did she do it or not?

I don't know.

Lilblam

You know the definition of the word, but can you fully understand infinity, visualize it? Comprehend it?

Here is another question for you. What is the difference between the minerals in a rock, and those in a living creature? What makes the molecules that are bother the same in the rock and the creature different? Do you know?

Originally posted by paperclip
From our perspective, people in dark ages believed the earth was flat, from their perspective they KNEW, they were really convinced that they KNEW.

This argument is a bit sketchy to be used for either side of the argument. According to the 'science' of the people at the time the Earth being flat was a fact. This was provable/testible by simply using one's eyes. This, as we now know, is not a fact as the methods used were fallible. This brings up the question of are the methods that we use currently to prove facts also fallible? Just something to think about.

I seem to hold a unique perspective on this because I have a working theory (belief/idea) that there is a god thing that can be proven (at least theoreticaly) by science fact. But perhaps this god thing it just another confusion of defintions which another individual would simply call the collective energy of all existence which while is the whole of consciousness, is not conscious of its own being/existence.

While this is the best theory that I have on the subject I do not consider it fact because I personally can not prove it outside of a thought experiment. I think that this is where the problem lies, believing in something as fact without hard proof.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Lilblam

You know the definition of the word, but can you fully understand infinity, visualize it? Comprehend it?

If I could visualize it, it would not be infinity. Comprehend it means understand it, and I already told you what it means!

Here is another question for you. What is the difference between the minerals in a rock, and those in a living creature?

If they are the same minerals then none. I don't know minerals though, so I don't know which minerals are where.

What makes the molecules that are bother the same in the rock and the creature different? Do you know?

If they are the same molecules, nothing. The way the molecules are "constructed" is what determines if it's a rock or a biological entity.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by paperclip
From our perspective, people in dark ages believed the earth was flat, from their perspective they KNEW, they were really convinced that they KNEW.

This argument is a bit sketchy to be used for either side of the argument. According to the 'science' of the people at the time the Earth being flat was a fact. This was provable/testible by simply using one's eyes.

Observation isn't a test or proof of anything. Science has nothing to do with reality, only reality has everything to do with itself. Science is just certain people's way of looking at things, nothing else.

All that you see is an illusion, or can be, so one cannot know if what you see is truly what is there.

This, as we now know, is not a fact as the methods used were fallible.
This brings up the question of are the methods that we use currently to prove facts also fallible? Just something to think about.

Knowledge protects. If our PROOFS were truly proofs, then we'd not have a concept of DISPROOFS. Because such concept exists, and because we have disproofs, our methods are not perfect. There are no infallible methods, only better and better methods. All there is is lessons.

I seem to hold a unique perspective on this because I have a working theory (belief/idea) that there is a god thing that can be proven (at least theoreticaly) by science fact. But perhaps this god thing it just another confusion of defintions which another individual would simply call the collective energy of all existence which while is the whole of consciousness, is not conscious of its own being/existence.

Are you asking whether the entire existance is conscious of itself as ONE? Whether GOD, if he is ALL THERE IS, is aware of himself as ALL THAT IS instead of just having little consciousnessess (like perhaps ours) being aware only of a little part of the whole?

Yes, through us, God exists. Our awareness is limited, but rises when we have enough knowledge. To be aware of everything, you need to BE everything.

While this is the best theory that I have on the subject I do not consider it fact because I personally can not prove it outside of a thought experiment. I think that this is where the problem lies, believing in something as fact without hard proof.

Proof doesn't exist, only knowledge exists.

liblam if you dont belive in God and trying so hard to prove that he doesnt exist, then tell me where did everything come from? And dont tell my some crap about a big bang. I've herd enough of that!!

Originally posted by AD5673
liblam if you dont belive in God and trying so hard to prove that he doesnt exist, then tell me where did everything come from? And dont tell my some crap about a big bang. I've herd enough of that!!

It didn't, it always was. There is no time.

Originally posted by AD5673
liblam if you dont belive in God and trying so hard to prove that he doesnt exist, then tell me where did everything come from? And dont tell my some crap about a big bang. I've herd enough of that!!

AD5673 if you do belive in God and are trying so hard to prove that he does exist, then tell me where did everything come from? And don't tell my some crap about a bible. I've heard enough of that!!


No offence! I'm just playing dawg!

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by Jonna]

read one book...."The Science of God" by: Gerald Schroeder...this will LOGICALLY through scientific data proove God DOES exist.

Originally posted by UM_Fearfulone
read one book...."The Science of God" by: Gerald Schroeder...this will LOGICALLY through scientific data proove God DOES exist.

What does this book define God to be?

The divine creator has proved to me he exists.....it is no longer a belief for me.....it is no longer a faith....it is no longer blind hypocritical dogma....

There is a science known as Raja yoga in which if you follow it with stead fastness you will prove things to your self...it is a science and unless you have practiced you cannot tell me it is not...
it would be akin to talking to the swimming instructor about all the finer points of swimming with out ever entering the water your self or knowing how to swim ...until you have done it and know how to do it ....what do you know other than the theories which you havent proven to your self ..........
i have personally done things which modern science or rational or logical minds will tell you is impossible.
can i prove it to you ???
no
But ive PROVED it to my self

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
The divine creator has proved to me he exists.....it is no longer a belief for me.....it is no longer a faith....it is no longer blind hypocritical dogma....

There is a science known as Raja yoga in which if you follow it with stead fastness you will prove things to your self...it is a science and unless you have practiced you cannot tell me it is not...
it would be akin to talking to the swimming instructor about all the finer points of swimming with out ever entering the water your self or knowing how to swim ...until you have done it and know how to do it ....what do you know other than the theories which you havent proven to your self ..........
i have personally done things which modern science or rational or logical minds will tell you is impossible.
can i prove it to you ???
no
But ive PROVED it to my self

What does this have to do with God?

i have read said book by this author and it is outstanding !!!!!!

hehe, lilblam, your posts are quite amusing.
I know, in my own mind and soul that God exists, because I've seen things, and I've felt things. In my own understanding of universe, everything makes more sense if there is a God, soul, afterlife. But I can't prove it to others because there is no 100% sure objective proof that God exists.
You can choose to take the leap of faith, or you can choose not to. What you choose affects your PERCEPTION of reality, not reality itself ( lol, one could argue with certain physicsts of today even about that).
You claim that you can prove to others that God doesnt exist, yet there have been many disproofs of your THEORY in this thread and in others, starting with your basic premise, and something that Jonna has mentioned "This brings up the question of are the methods that we use currently to prove facts also fallible?". You based your "proof" on thought experiment, THE most falible method there is, because it is not based on objective facts, but subjective opinion, logic and point of view. To you your disproof makes sense, to somebody else whos logic and understanding of God differ from yours, your thought experiment doesnt make sense.

So, until we actually find something that says to everybody with 100% certainty " there is God" or "there is no God" ( like we can prove without a doubt that the Earth is round), these discussions will always be the same: not very conclusive yet still quite an interesting pass-time activity.

Oh one more thing, clarify one thing for me. I have noticed in your posts that you seem to thing that belief in God and afterlife somehow makes people completely oblivious to this world and uncapable to gain real knowledge. I strongly disagree with that. The fact that I believe in higher being, a Creator, and afterlife didn't stop me from acquiring an MD in pharmacy, and learning a LOT about how this universe works, amongst many many other things I have learned, huge amount of knowledge about THIS life. The belief in life AFTER this one didn't stop me in my quest for knowledge and information.
I consider belief in God to be the highest form of "deny ignorance", because it is what it IS, an uncertain leap of faith, when your limited senses are telling you it is not there; ignorance thriving from our own limitation of mind, of our own limitation of perception of the whole existence, that ignorance is denied when you BELIEVE.
And when you truly believe, you will SEE too

what does this have to do with god!????!!!!???!!

become a student of it and find out for yourself as i have

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by UM_Fearfulone
read one book...."The Science of God" by: Gerald Schroeder...this will LOGICALLY through scientific data proove God DOES exist.

What does this book define God to be?

God is a creator, our father. He created everything.