Originally posted by AD5673
If there was no God how would people belive in him? I mena if God did not exist how would people still think there's a God? People arent smart enought to create such stories as in the Bible. We would've never came up with this. And the only rewason we do belive in God because he is real. Because the Bible tells us. The Bible was wirtten like 5000 years ago. And the New Testiment about 2000 years ago. How would the stupid ancient people have came up with a God, and all those incredible stories? And the predictons in the Revalations, in the Bible are coming true right now! And there lots more evidence to what is written in the Bible is true. And if what is written in the Bible is true. Then God must exist! And he does!

Believe what you wish. I won't even argue what you said above, the same way you cannot argue with a 4 yr old who says "Santa IS real! Because my presents say things were from SANTA! And because my mommy says he is real! And I saw him at the mall! He IS real!"

No matter how much logic and understanding you're trying to impart on this 4 yr old, it will all go one ear and out the other as he's fixated in his own mind programming and delusions based on assumptions and wishful thinking. But such is your (and his) choice.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by lilblam]

Anyone that does not believe in god is an atheist. You have little faith. You think that you can comprehend the whole universe with your essay post. Listen God could be a spirit no one said he was human energy. He is a higher lifeform. Your artical though reminded me of a simpsons episode when homer got smart and proved that there was no god to Ned Flanders. Ned decided to burn the proof but homer had made copies. It is very similar to this discussion

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Jakko
What brings people to become stuck in their mind, is the need to understand everything.
Some call it a lazy mind, to realize you simply can not understand everything, such as what started God and how God created us.

You cannot understand that which you already assume. Beliefs only lead to self-delusion!

Once again, if you START with the assumption that some God created us, then of course you'll be stuck at figuring out "how". Also, I did not say understand everything, but what you just said is not everything by any means, and can be easily know and understood, if one seeks the truth. If one seeks to believe and assume instead, then of course that's his choice.

Reality is that it is not lazy at all, to choose not to spend time trying to figure something out that you can not figure out.

You won't know if you can figure it out until you try. I tried and figured it out. You don't try and claim it's impossible. So who's lazy? You cannot figure anything out if you assume beforehand. Wishful thinking will get ya every time.

We are not on the same level as God, and untill we are we will have to admit that some of Gods systems, rules and laws are just beyond our grasp.

You start with the assumption that there IS a God, which will as usual lead you into deception. Assumptions do not equal truth. When you start with an assumption, this only means you do not wish to know the truth, you prefer your own assumption/beliefs over reality. Then you put up a defense by saying "It is beyond our simple minds to understand" and use this every time someone says, "Why not seek truth?". Once again, this is an excuse, and is faulty because it's based on assumption.

Atheists should really not fire those questions at christians anyways.

And you're the one who knows what people should and should not do? Who should be asked what in which situation?

Being a christian is something else then being God. As logical as that may sound, a lot of people base their image of God on what they like/not like about christian people, and expect answers from christian people one should only expect from God.

You cannot expect anything from an imaginary entity, unless of course you happen to be a Christian

The fact that I can not answer your question, does not mean God can not answer your question.

All questions have answers. There are those that seek answers to all questions, and those that sit there saying "nah, I'd rather dwell in my illusion and pretend that certain questions just cannot be answered". Only the former reach new levels of awareness and understanding, only the former begin to see reality as it truly is, and only the former finally understands the answers to any and all questions they seek answers for. The latter will forever sit there in denial saying "This can NEVER be answered" or "Only GOD can answer this" and not even TRY!

"Can God make a brick he can not lift?" what a hilariously childish way of questioning the might of the One who created you and everything around you.

What a hilariously silly assumption based on religious propaganda, mind-control techniques, and dogma that's designed to confuse and control your very mind. What a programmed response based on a non-thinking, fearful, weak state of mind induced in you by religion and by society, what an entropic existance you chose! How does the saying go... if you assume, you make an...

I wonder what God would answer if you would ask Him this, allthough my narrow mind tells me He would probably have much better things to do than having such conversations with you.

Yes, non-existing is his favorite thing to do.

Lol, I had a good laugh reading your post.
I do think you once really did try to find honest answers to your questions, but it seems somewhere along the way you went wrong.
Let's first clear something up, I was not always a christian and I actually did try to find a lot of answers that seemed (too) hard to find at first.
Some questions were answered, others are still unanswered. I learned that it is important not to let questions stand between you and the truth.
After what I have seen in my life if would be rather retarded to claim that God does not exist, but still I noticed that asking the same questions over and over eventually made me doubt the existance of God, even though God showed himself in a pretty obvious way.

Seeking wisdom and gaining knowledge is not a bad thing, in fact the bible motivates people to become wise and smart in many ways.
But asking questions just to "know", without understanding why that knowledge will not help you or people around you in any way, is silly when the answers can not be found in a lifetime.
Oh and since I know God does exist, I am not going to act as if I don't just because I am having a discussion with someone who has not found Him yet.
I am really wondering in what way you did find answer to the most complex questions, and wether you even explored the possibility that a God is existant.

Originally posted by Zuzubar
Anyone that does not believe in god is an atheist. You have little faith. You think that you can comprehend the whole universe with your essay post.

I can comprehend what I can comprehend using any and all methods that help me comprehend it. The understanding and concrete knowledge of the existance (or lack thereof) of God does not require, but does benefit from understanding of how the universe works. This understanding is easily achieved if one is to open his mind. The details of this may escape me, but general concepts are not so hard to understand. The only factor requires is the search for truth, which is missing in the vast majority of population, including the vast majority of people on ATS.

Listen God could be a spirit no one said he was human energy.

Spirit is also energy. All is energy. Also, a highly advanced entity is not God, unless of course you wish to define God as any entity that is more advanced than humans.

He is a higher lifeform. Your artical though reminded me of a simpsons episode when homer got smart and proved that there was no god to Ned Flanders. Ned decided to burn the proof but homer had made copies. It is very similar to this discussion

I don't watch the Simpsons.

Originally posted by Jakko

Lol, I had a good laugh reading your post.

I'm glad it amuses you! Mirth helps to cope!

I do think you once really did try to find honest answers to your questions, but it seems somewhere along the way you went wrong.
Let's first clear something up, I was not always a christian and I actually did try to find a lot of answers that seemed (too) hard to find at first.

Let's clear something up, I used to be a Christian, and then a spiritualist, and then I decided to wake up and seek truth, and I saw the absurdities and lies of both. I am also Jewish by blood. However, my past beliefs no longer stand in the way of my search for truth, as I have learned that belief only keeps me AWAY from truth!

Some questions were answered, others are still unanswered. I learned that it is important not to let questions stand between you and the truth.

Questions are the ONLY way to find truth. If one does not question, one does not get answers. Questions are the CONDUIT to truth, not an obstacle. Without questions, you do not seek the answer now do you.

After what I have seen in my life if would be rather retarded to claim that God does not exist, but still I noticed that asking the same questions over and over eventually made me doubt the existance of God, even though God showed himself in a pretty obvious way.

There are some not-understood aspects of life, many synchronisities, many things that seem impossible but come true. There are many things in life that make your jaw drop, things that shock you, things that touch you emotionally very deeply. I never said there are no forces that influence our lives, forces of higher knowledge and that are unseen by mankind. However, the religious version of God is an obvious lie, but obvious if you choose to see the contradictions to reality that it creates and the apparent fallecies that are inherent in it.

Seeking wisdom and gaining knowledge is not a bad thing, in fact the bible motivates people to become wise and smart in many ways.
But asking questions just to "know", without understanding why that knowledge will not help you or people around you in any way, is silly when the answers can not be found in a lifetime.

Knowledge of how something helps you is still knowledge. Understanding IS based on knowledge, it is what comes about when one DOES have knowledge. Belief is what comes about when one does NOT have knowledge, but instead pretends that something is what he wishes it to be.

Oh and since I know God does exist, I am not going to act as if I don't just because I am having a discussion with someone who has not found Him yet.
I am really wondering in what way you did find answer to the most complex questions, and wether you even explored the possibility that a God is existant.

Yup, was a believer. Now I seek knowledge instead, and this is the the best thing that has ever happened to me, the best CHOICE I have ever made (subjectively speaking from my perspective, which is that truth is of all importance, and lies are no longer desired.) I made the choice to deny ignorance, and have been enlightened as a direct result of this choice.

Once again, God exists if the definition of same is true to reality. One must first define God. If you say God is the creator of everything, then yes God exists. If you think God is separate from the creation, then this version of God doesn't exist. If you think he created something a long time ago, then that's false because time doesn't exist. Created IS the creation and vice versa, and of course, all exists simultaneously for one purpose and one purpose only: lessons.

This is the very basic, fundemental knowledge that one achieves if one seeks to understand reality as it truly is. If one seeks instead to BELIEVE, and to ASSUME (which is really the same thing), he instead chooses to make reality what he wants it to be, which is subjective, and objectively non-existant.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by lilblam]

With all do respect, you talk about things you know nothing about. Time is a concept we are used to because we are born in it, and we die in it. You can not expect yourself to understand how "a God that's not bound by time and space" works. You can not tell me that a creator could not have created everything because he is created as well, without realizing you don't know how exactly it works either.
You seem to have stepped off your belief for imaginary freedom and knowledge, when all you did was give up on truth because you did not understand it.
By throwing away the spiritual part you now may think you understand more, but in fact you understand less than before.
When Jesus said he wants us to stand in our faith like a child, He did not mean we should keep ourselves dumb.
The contradictions and paradoxes in the christian religion make more sense than you might think, and maybe you should investigate it a little more.

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by CommonSense
Why is it that most atheists are so incredibly preoccupied with the need to prove that something doesn't exist that they don't beleive in in the first place?

Belief has nothing to do with objective reality. Therefore, it is irrelavant to only prove things you believe in, or otherwise. Belief is useless except as a way to create an illusion for yourself that you really like and stick to it.

lilblam,
Your response is illogical and not to the point. The question is simple, why do atheists insist on disproving God's existence? I could accept perhaps a passing thought on the subject but not an extended esoteric diatribe without foundation in fact, truth or theology. I was happy to see that you've come around to at least accepting the existence of the creator. To equate the creator with creation however limits the power of the creator. By definition this proposition must be false.

God exists beyond our concept of time and space. This is something that is not possible for us to fully understand while we are in this state of reality. Remember, we cannot explain the "uncaused cause". You may want to look at the writings of St Thomas Aquinas on that one.

Jakko How do you know what Jesus meant? As I see it it could mean whatever you like it to mean.

And BTW I like to read this discussion, makes sence to me.

ecc 10:12 "Words from a wise man's mouth are gracious, but a fool is consumed by his own lips. At the beginning his words are folly; at the end they are wicked madness-and the fool multiplies words.
No one knows what is coming-who can tell him what will happen after him?"
ecc 2:24 "A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This to, I see, is from the hand of God, for without Him, who can eat or find enjoyment? To the man who pleases Him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God."
ecc 5 "Gaurd your steps when you go to the house of God. GO near to listen rather than to offer the sacrafice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong.
Do not be quick with your mouth, do not be hasty in your heart to utter anything before God. God is in heaven and you are on earth, so let your words be few. As a dream comes when there are many cares, so the speech of a fool when there are many words."

one question, WHO REALLY CARES? I mean I've made a few catholic jokes on this site, but dude its not like I try to get them to stop beleiving like you do. How horrible it must be to take joy out of crushing the beleifs of another.

It all boils down to faith, don't take that from humans, it's all we have left now.

oh ya, thos is directed to the A-hole who made this thread, no one else.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by ShirtNinja]

Originally posted by Jakko
With all do respect, you talk about things you know nothing about.

And you are the judge of what I know, aren't you! You know exactly what I know something about, and what I know nothing about. If I know more than you, I'm obviously mistaken

Time is a concept we are used to because we are born in it, and we die in it. You can not expect yourself to understand how "a God that's not bound by time and space" works.

Well you might impose that limit upon yourself, but I choose to not impose limits on what I can or cannot understand. You keep telling yourself that "I can't understand it, it's beyond me". I'll just keep searching for truth and reach new levels of understanding and awareness, while you just continue to repeat the same thing over and over to yourself.

You can not tell me that a creator could not have created everything because he is created as well, without realizing you don't know how exactly it works either.

I don't need to know how it exactly works, to understand what is possible and what isn't in this particular instance. I may not know how a car engine works, but I know enough to understand that it won't work if submerged in water. Same thing applies here, I understand ENOUGH to know what is possible for "God who is outside of time" and what isn't. If you don't think I do, that's an assumption on your part isn't it? Well assume anything you wish!

You seem to have stepped off your belief for imaginary freedom and knowledge, when all you did was give up on truth because you did not understand it.

Belief is imaginary knowledge, but knowledge is objectively true to reality. Or do you not understand this yet?

By throwing away the spiritual part you now may think you understand more, but in fact you understand less than before.

Another huge false assumption on your part - I never threw away the spiritual part.

When Jesus said he wants us to stand in our faith like a child, He did not mean we should keep ourselves dumb.

He meant to question reality without prejudice or anticipation, and to seek truth as a child does with his questions. Instead, what you do is you follow a program, you are conditioned to be a reaction machine, to only think and do what you have been programmed to do by the elite that control you and your mind, and you allow this control to continue by your own CHOICE, because you decided ignorance is bliss, and truth is of no import. I've made a different decision.

In fact, your argument is devoid of any logic as I just showed above in regards to what you said about "knowledge", and if you want to extrapolate on this I will.

The contradictions and paradoxes in the christian religion make more sense than you might think, and maybe you should investigate it a little more.

A little more eh? A contradiction is a contradiction is a contradiction. Once it exists, no matter how much you believe that it doesn't mean anything, it will only further demonstrate your wishful-thinking nature and a desire to keep your eyes closed so you cannot see the truth even if it hits you in the face.

These inconsistencies only show that your God is just a service to self entity, whether real or imagined, which is out to control and manipulate everyone it can get its claws on. It uses lies, deception, death, and illusion to keep you chained and bound to your linear thought, to keep your consciousness level extremely low and NON-THINKING, in order to feast on your energy, as in your ignorance you willingly give them up. I chose differently.

Evry one please, this dude is a cyber bully. If we all just ignore him he'll go away. He just likes to get y'alls goat, mmmmmmmm goat.

Originally posted by ShirtNinja
one question, WHO REALLY CARES? I mean I've made a few catholic jokes on this site, but dude its not like I try to get them to stop beleiving like you do. How horrible it must be to take joy out of crushing the beleifs of another.

Beliefs are fantasies that you pretend are true. You can hold on to them as tightly as you wish, but they will not have an inkling of effect on objective reality.

It all boils down to faith, don't take that from humans, it's all we have left now.

I take nothing from you. Faith is an illusion, and therefore, humanity only has their illusions to hold on to. Those who seek truth, receive SUBSTANCE, because knowledge is all substance. All there is, is knowledge. Faith in a lie doesn't make the lie true.

oh ya, thos is directed to the A-hole who made this thread, no one else.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by ShirtNinja]

A-hole is subjective!

faith in a lie doesn't make the lie true.

yea, well ripping away that faith only hurts people. You're pathetic, oh and ya a-hole is subjective, ASS HOLE!

Originally posted by ShirtNinja

faith in a lie doesn't make the lie true.

yea, well ripping away that faith only hurts people. You're pathetic, oh and ya a-hole is subjective, ASS HOLE!

Pain is based on realisation of truth. No one can rip your delusions of reality away from you, and if truth hurts you, you can feel free to ignore it and go back to sleep. All your judgements are subjective and irrelavant in the extreme

The fact that you even resort to negative subjective statements because you are controlled by your own ego, shows you ignorance and lack of control of yourself. Shows your submission to your bodily chemicals, your weak-mind. Ignorance is a fun toy isn't it?

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by lilblam]

Bye,
This thread's been around too long and is going nowhere with its pseudo-philosophical arguments, obfuscation of the issues and answers to questions not asked.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by CommonSense]

Lilbam,


You are entirely too self focused. Your entire outlook seems to point to the fact that it's all about you and what you can comprehend which is very little BTW in terms of all knowledge. Again, when you know everything about everything you can say there is NO GOD but until then your mind is simply too shallow to understand. The finite can NEVER understand the infinite. It is impossible!!! Your entire stance seems to indicate that you believe in situational ethics which is all about being self focused. That is why I like Christianity because out of the 4 major world religions it is the most outwardly focused. I also like Jesus because He is the only God who would and has come to die for the sake of other people. That's my kind of HERO. Jesus rules. He is the ultimate super Hero......

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by Enlightened]

Originally posted by Enlightened
Lilbam,


You are entirely too self focused.

I seek to advance myself, and the more I know, the more I am able to assist others in their advancement. Knowledge protects, ignorance endangers and hinders advancement.

Your entire outlook seems to point to the fact that it's all about you and what you can comprehend which is very little BTW in terms of all knowledge. Again, when you know everything about everything you can say there is NO GOD but until then your mind is simply too shallow to understand.

My mind is infinite, the only limits are self-imposed ones. What you speak of can be very easily understood by a being with an open mind. However, by a programmed and controlled being with a closed mind that is only allowed to think what it is told to think, cannot see, and will NOT see, until that being chooses to seek objective perception and understanding of reality.

The finite can NEVER understand the infinite. It is impossible!!!

I am infinite, as I have no limits or boundaries. I can conceptualize the infinite: Infinity means no end, it means forever. It means there is no limit. There, I have given you understanding of infinity, which is rather simple.

Your entire stance seems to indicate that you believe in situational ethics which is all about being self focused.

False, I believe nothing. Ethics, morals, and beliefs are subjective and most often based on lies and delusion. I choose to KNOW objective reality as it truly is, and I also made the choice to seek the path of service to others. With this choice, as with any others, come responsibilities and repercussions.

That is why I like Christianity because out of the 4 major world religions it is the most outwardly focused.

Yes, too concerned about converting everyone else, changing the world, instead of changing the SELF. Too concerned about trying to fix the world, by pretending that there is something wrong with it in the first place. Wrong and Right are subjective, the world is the way it is for a reason. To try to change it, means you want to shape the world into what YOU think it should be. Very selfish indeed, and utterly hopeless task.

I also like Jesus because He is the only God who would and has come to die for the sake of other people.

So to you the definition of God just means a man! Well then God must certainly exist. One does not die for the sake of another, as your life is not important, your soul is. Your soul is eternal and does not die, therefore saving someone's LIFE is of no consequence, and is useless to the extreme.

That's my kind of HERO. Jesus rules. He is the ultimate super Hero......

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by Enlightened]

As you wish.

My Follow up Questions and Comments

1.God is real.
2.How do you think the Universe came together without god?
3.Are you an atheist now, or are you a christian or jew?
4.Keep your opinions to yourself
5.What gives your theory a 100% guarantee?
6.Why are you angry at me and other people.
7.I think your theory needs more research. The existence of god can not be proved wrong in a few posts.
8.Do you still believe in God?
9.Do you believe you are god?
10.No I don't actually want to be a god despite my signature.
Go ahead prove me wrong

Well, I think we came to a point where you can no longer tell me anything new. It seems clear to me you think your mind is infinite, that your mind has no limits and that any form of faith in something you can't prove is something to be "freed of".
I feel sorry for you. It's sad to see the most intelligent people get tackled by their own thinking like this.
I really do hope you will somehow learn that not everything can be contained by your mind and that some answers can only be found by truly listening to what God has to say, instead of making up an answer yourself. As weird as this may sound, right now Satan is using something that was ment to be for the best, for the worst, namely your intelligence and desire to learn new things. But this strategy is also used by God sometimes, and I hope He will pull you back.
All the best to you, and let's not drag this on as long as we can, endless repeation is not a good thing on forums. I hope we can at least agree on that.