Originally posted by Truth

he doesnt here the prayers of the poor?

brother, the basis of our belief [is] once you truly follow christ you will
have to endure suffering.


you think because people die, they suffer. death is the beggining.



also how do [you] know poor hungry people do not ask for it as penance?



if god fed everybody through miracles to the point where suffering
does not exist, then would they not learn value from suffering?

god cannot tamper with free will, but works through human hearts to feed the poor ect.



like you said.


if i give a poor dying man a meal, does it merrit for the soul?


peace

Exactly!!! God wont just go off helping everyone. He cant and wont. One people have to truly belive in him and Christ. He could just go off and kill the devil if he wanted to. He needs people to learn of him. If he helps everyone and everyone will go without suffering who will learn about him??? Everyone will forget him.

Everyone is bringing up this selective god again. Why wouldn't he help everyone?. Instead you'd like people to believe he has a complex. "Believe in my son or look this is what happens to you, your prayers don't get answered and you live a pathetic life"...what a swell deity...
People saying that god only answers the prayers of people who've accepted his son, that's absurd. Thats just another example of religious control- accept or your prayers wont be answer-ha!. In the NT jesus went around healing and delivering people that weren't even saved yet. he's supposed to be the same yesterday, today, and forever I thought? Back then, he did something wonderful for them; thereby revealing himself to them. It wasn't you better accept me or you aint getting your miracle(answered prayer).
And yes people do have choices. Some people need to realize that though and stop attributing every little thing to god. of course, there are things like miracles and such that can't be explained; I'm not talking about that. just because it statistically shouldn't have happened doesn't mean its god.
For instance, if you sit around and do nothing but pray i'm sure nothing will happen. Why is that? Without our action nothing happens; probably because its us that doeth it. Its not always as simple as just believing is it?

Phew that was a big read now I believe in the creator. I believe in the bible.

But firstly. Omnipotent, God is Omnipotent, the people who have come before me have argued how can you place an omnipotent in human science and logic. This is a very valid point.

... I agree, a can follow with your reasoning and logic and it rarely fails in that text.

However MY MAIN POINT IS: you (or who ever has written this) have made many assumptions to start with (I shall go through and argue them later). Because of these assumptions you have failed disproove anything.

One of these is the omnipotent God. All this nothing and something. All this relys on science saying "this is happened therefore i predict this will happen next time" it relies on 1's and 0's, yes/ no, You have already made this God finite, This God is Infinite. After all how did the earth/universe (something) appear from nothing in your logic?

Also does this logic explain what is out side of this universe? and what is out side of that and what is outside of that ... etc. In this way our, Logic and science and our understanding relies on this you have a point it travels at a velocity for an amount of time. You have your distance. Making things finite again. For an Infinite God. And you made this clear in the first paragraph.

Oh well, yeah in the next paragraphs i dont believe in aliens, and you are presuming aliens exist and also you seem to assume that some form of evolution takes place. (which i dont have a problem with until you define it).

Originally posted by lilblam
To say that before anything existed, a God existed, is an oxymoron. Such a statement can neither be understood nor conceived by our minds.

Yeah actually the bible doesnt make sense alot of the bible is apparent oxymorons and paradox's. The very reason why we are saved ..... Because Jesus was fully man, and fully God. ... I personally dont argue that sorta thing with God as my mind is far too ... weak to understand God. I fear a God who i dont understand and that is a reason to fear him.Strike two says, since there was something which must have predated a God,

Thoms law
Actually though i dont really argue much with the logic of "Thoms Law". The fact that ... if there was nothing to begin with there will be nothing now ... the fact that there is something now means that there was something then ... and that was God to say that there was nothing then, then, would be to say there isnt really anything now would there. Thats my oxymoron for you, though im in very thin ground as ive never studied thoms law. If you agree with this and thoms law you would be assuming that ther was nothing to begin with.

Originally posted by lilblam
So even a God (which is something) could not be produced by nothing. Therefore, if a God came into being, he must have come out of something. The only "something" which exists now and has always existed is that of energy and/or matter.

You are assuming God was produced here.

And agian with the last paragraph of "strike one" you are assuming what i argued first.

Originally posted by lilblam
Strike two says, since there was something which must have predated a God,

Bad start i have already disagreed with your "logic" behind that.

From Now on i can only really pick at what you say as you have created a false logic behind all your reasoning.

So first.

Originally posted by lilblam
Knowledge and character MUST be developed. It can not be decreed. It can not be magically waved into existence. Knowledge and character is a PRODUCT of life and living. It is a product of making wise and foolish choices. It is a product of growth.

You assume: Knowlege and character MUST be developed. To right Knowlege is gained from information. Thats what ive been taught. But what If God already contains all the information. He is an Infinite God.
Or if God was there first then there was no information there to feed his knowledge. Therefore he would of gained all the knowledge possible.

Mid arguement point here sorry: An Infinite God im saying, How can you argue with infinity?

"it is a product of making wise and foolish choices"
...Trial and error ... Science ... making a prediction from what you know before hand. Just pointing out the depth you are taking Science into.

Yes, I dont believe he sneezed after all he did say let there be ... what ever.

"Character must be developed by finding out what is good and what works"
Sorry but again what people have said earlier you trying to push God into a finite box.

Originally posted by lilblam
That is, the Christians give God a good, moral and powerful character.

Moral? Since when is God moral. God doesnt appear to be moral ... He comands genocide in judges ... he finds Gay acts detestable ... he gives us no rights
God is love but he isnt Moral

Originally posted by lilblam
Therefore, there must have been other individuals and intelligences with whom God could interact in order to develop a good character. There must be at least a family of them.

We believe in the trinity! Yes, I wouldnt say they are a family Because they are all exactly the same, God.
Why cant God talk to himself or other members of the trinity. I talk to him but he already knows what im going to say.

Strike 3
I have never heard of this mistranslation. Though if it is true and not a misinterpretation itself. As hebrew was recorded in only constanants and could easily misinterpreted. Even if what you are saying is true it could of ment Gods could be refering to the trinity.
The problem also is that made and create could be the same word in hebrew. After all even words in the King James have different meanings now.

And now you start refering to the Gods of New and Old testiment as seperate where most Christians consider them the same. Exactly the same. The same God, Creator God.

As for the rest I know they have created other Gods so..... They had a strong difference of being human dependant. And required Human efforts to gain salvation or to keep them happy. Of course Christianity relies on Gods Grace.
Also God gave us a desire to search for a God so that we may find him.

And again you repeat the same logic as before 0's wow and all im saying is that things didnt start with a 0 as science would sudjest despite thoms theory but 1.

I believe in God the creator so i wont be bothered fighting for people who believe God the maker.

I shall finish there. Please bear in mind everytime i said you i ment the writer of this text you have quoted.

[Edited on 4-4-2004 by Beanie_pianoforte]

Well, I'm against Christianity much more than the average person (religion in general, but namely Christianity), but you can't say you have proof that god doesn't exist, because none does. Just as no proof exists that there is a god.

However, I will be blunt and say that Christians are insane, or simply brainwashed people and I hope you all come to sanity some day, for all of society.

An interesting subject one i have looked at for years and there are several questions i have answered for myself and several i havent so here goes.

1) Looking at things from a neutral veiwpoint I look at the bible and serveral religions and try to find a common ground. What i have come to believe is the most logical is that the soul is energy with pure thought. Anything else and it wouldnt be you as you see yourself now and reincarnation adds a big spin on everthing if such exists.

2) The bible was written long ago and passed through many hands. If the true prophets had of said gods will is to destroy all kingdoms and all kings i dought that would have been written. There were powers and kingdoms in control and overseeing most of this.

3) When you look at the different religions and beliefs and try to find a common topic between them it looks like they all are written to guide one to live a better life and finish this life with no regrets and no guilt and above all no fear of punishment. As I see it it was written to condition the mind. Prayer, meditation, ect are all forms of conditioning the mind.

4) Most religions today are to into themselves, what I mean is why is the vatican still standing should it not be sold off to feed the hungry to help those in need. Being charitable is not what you give or how much but what you have left for yourself after you give.

5) One thing i thought was strange and i do not remember the passage but god said I will not change I will not evolve. This tells me that god is a law of all that is the complete positive or all that is good. To think God is a entity a person or soul that rules over everything is streatching out there some. Dont get me wrong religion is good it sets a path of life where the end result is the conditioning of the mind and soul for the afterlife, one with no regret or fear.

6) You judge yourself in the end and all that are there see what you have done there are no secrets and you will go where you feel the most comforable. Those of more pure soul might veiw it as a hell of sorts but i dought you would. an example of this is the biblical hell would in fact be heaven to a masacistic homicidal pyromeniac and heaven with the streets of gold and eternal worship to god would be hell for him.

7) There is a afterlife this I have proven to myself I think everyone must do just that there will be a time when your not sure, then one day you will be, its more of a personal thing than a fact to lay out to all. Once you know for yourself, to prove it to others is not so important for sometime in their life they will know.

What are thoughts but energy? Anything and everything you think of is energy, this energy permeates the universe and would manifest itself somewhere, if it doesn't already exist. It is also concievable that everything sentient beings think, or believe about, does exists since nothing is ever created or destroyed.

Are thoughts and ideas really our own? or are we tapping some eternal book of knowledge which has all these ideas and thoughts? It is my opinion that it is the second one, but it is "my opinion."

Heh. I don't follow religion at all, but I do know that there is a God. It is impossible to prove otherwise and all the long posts in the world cannot change that fact.

When you come down to the utter basic, the only reality is that you exist. There is NOTHING else.
Now either you created yourself or something else created you. I'm pretty sure that I didn't create myself - if I hadda done I woulda been much better looking, richer and prolly a king of my own tropical island #ry or summit.

Originally posted by infovacume
Or so you assume. Your "desire" that whatever was the turnout was GOD, doesn't mean that is what it was. Somehow he doesn't seem to help out all those other people praying to be saved, like the dying in Iraq who're praying to God to make the Americans leave. The Palestinians who want the Jews to stop their genocide campaign against them. The Native Americans who prayed to save them from the BRITISH who invaded and slaughtered them to build this country. The Jews who prayed to be saved from Hitler.

Ummm, Jews doing genocide to the Palestinians? Are you nuts? Come on tell me that was a typo.

Ok , God can not , and will not answer everyones prayers, Iraq for instance, there are people praying that the Americans stay, just as well as Poeple praying they leave. Thats why everything is not answered. Secondly , in my view because I am christian I believe he will only answer prayers, "or mostly" of those who have excepted his son.

Riddle me this, where did the Universe come from, and you better go very far back, because anything you say, I can easily say , "but where did that come from" you will eventua;;y hit a wall , a wall that abruptly tells you something came from nothing. And well , as we all know, sometihing can not come from nothing , therefore leading me to believe in a higher being calked God.

Don't be so quick to assume. Universe didn't "come from" anything, it always was. So did we hit a wall yet?

[Edited on 13-4-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by Muaddib
What are thoughts but energy? Anything and everything you think of is energy, this energy permeates the universe and would manifest itself somewhere, if it doesn't already exist. It is also concievable that everything sentient beings think, or believe about, does exists since nothing is ever created or destroyed.

Are thoughts and ideas really our own? or are we tapping some eternal book of knowledge which has all these ideas and thoughts? It is my opinion that it is the second one, but it is "my opinion."

Try both. All that can ever possibly exist, does. There is no time, and the entire knowledge of everything (which can be termed as God) DOES exist. By being "creative" and being "your individual self" you are really a representative a PART of ALL THERE IS, and ALL THERE IS already exists in a timeless existance. So you ARE yourself, yet there is nothing NEW being created, other than from your own point of view, since you werent' aware of it before you CREATED it. In essence, it has always been, and always will be, since all that is POSSIBLE already is! It takes forever to experience everything without BEING everything, and forever never ends does it...

This is perhaps not the simplest thing to understand, but it is the ONLY way it is possible for reality to exist, think about it! How could there ever be something that has not already BEEN before, and is NOT in existance already? All there is, is lessons! God does not make "rules", WE make rules. There is no path AWAY from God, because God is ALL THERE IS! Any path IS God, is away from God, and simultaneously is towards God! Nothing exists that is NOT God!

How could it be any other way? THINK ABOUT IT. How could reality NOT be infinite and timeless? Absolutely every imaginable situation/possibility already IS. Let's think about this now, as it is indeed really simple and OBVIOUS if you open your mind for a minute...

There are 2 ways to think of reality (only one is true):
1. Time exists
2. Time doesn't exist.

In BOTH ways, all possibilities are already manifested and EXIST! Therefore, every possible choice you could ever make, you already DID make, are making, and WILL make. You will make each choice an INFINITY of times, and there are INFINITY of different choices to make! Every possible scenario is therefore EXPERIENCED and KNOWN. All there is is KNOWLEDGE. Human beliefs place LIMITS and BOUNDARIES on the limitless and infinite reality which is God. They do so to control and manipulate and inspire WORSHIP of something which is already EVERYTHING. Do you worship EVERYTHING? How could you worship God without understanding what God is, which is EVERYTHING? Anything LESS THAN THAT cannot possibly be God, as it now has a LIMIT! Such limits don't exist, unless created by humans to inspire belief, worship, and promote control and "authority" over one another. All is part of the infinity of lessons that exists. Once we learn all the lessons here, we move on to a higher existance, with more awareness and understanding of reality. Each time we might think "Well, this is it..." and each time we'll be disappointed as we find an even HIGHER form of awareness beyond the horizon, after all the lessons have been learned.

Does a rock realise that there are beings like plants/animals that are far more aware than itself?

Do you think plants realise that there are animals, which are far more aware? Now they may instinctually defend themselves, but they have no conscious awareness and realization of what an animal really is.

Do you think animals are consciously aware of the fact that humans are INFINITELY more powerful/aware than the animals are? Or do they only see US as one of them? Think about it...

So why on EARTH would humans think we are at the top of the food chain, the head honchos of the universe? Well, we don't, we created a GOD and decided to worship "him". Are we not GODS for the animals on this planet? What does this say? This says that any being with more awareness which means more knowledge which means more POWER can EASILY appear as GOD to humans, and be worshipped and obeyed by entire PLANETS if it wants to be.

There is MUCH MUCH more involved in this, but even that much is enough to ponder for a while. Then you get into different "systems of control" and yet other forms of existance FREE from worship, illusions, control, lies, manipulation, deception etc. Those would involve service to others forms of existance, and they do not exist on our planet, since this is a STS planet. So come on now... expand your minds guys! Think outside the box. Rip open the constraints of belief and feel FREE to explore the universe, to explore and KNOW GOD, for he loves to be known, and he is all that there is. But of course, balance will be maintained! For each person who chooses to seek TRUTH and to WAKE UP, there will be one who accepts religion and belief and assumption and ignorance as he chooses to ignore reality. Balance is ALWAYS maintained, and it's fun seeing how far you can push your mind, which is INFINITE in scope.

Those here who say "my mind is to weak to understand God" are right, you willingly impose upon yourselves the illusion that your mind has a limit, and literally render yourselves weak-minded and incapable of comprehending certain things, until you LET GO of this delusion and choose to understand that you HAVE no limits. In reality there are no such limits, they are always self-imposed, and PROMOTED by religions to constraint you and keep you under CONTROL by the elites. Like sheep to the slaughter....

However, the choice to wake up is ALWAYS individual, and the effort must then be applied to begin to SEE reality as it is, not as you'd want it to be. This takes a lot of work, but for those whose goal it is to learn the TRUTH, it is well worth it! Have fun learning...

OK, first I apologize for not reading the entire length of the thread.

Ok, here's my support for the non-existence of the christian god, even though I believe higher powers may exist, just not 'gods' by definition (again, I apologize if this was stated earlier):

From Dictionary.com

1. God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

God, by christian definition, is the first definition... 1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

This being cannot exist.

om·nip·o·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
adj.

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.


n.

1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

om·nis·cient ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-nshnt)
adj.

Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.


n.

1. One having total knowledge.
2. Omniscient God. Used with the.

So, God is all powerful and all knowing. Nothing can be absolute and exist. If there is any argument FOR god that is actually conceivable, it would be that God is the collection of all times and all realms and all infinity, but a god that rules over the universe cannot exist, or cannot be as all powerful as percieved.

God is not good, nor evil. The most powerful being in the universe cannot be purely good, for there would have to be an equal balance of evil, and god would know this, thus he would let people sin and do bad deeds without any reprecussions whatsoever... he's all-knowing, right? So, if there was a god, it would offset the balance of the universe. Remember, everything needs a contrast. White does not exist without black. If there was no black, how would you know what white is? The reason everything exists is because of fluxuations... hormonics. To every positive, there is a negative. If all forces in the universe pulled, and none pushed, our universe would not exist.

Now, for all you bible thumpers, every time you find GOD in the bible, replace it with 'powerful ruler'... and everytime you find LORD, replace it with 'King' as in the King of France... all of a sudden the bible starts to come to a more earthly plume of colors rather than those colors that cannot even be percieved as colors.

A powerful ruler instructed Moses to write these commandments on stone tablets. A powerful ruler had Adam (a more primitive human) tending his gardens. Make sense?

I'd even say, whenever you find the word "Love" in the Bible replace it with "Knowledge", and suddenly the book begins to make surprising sense.

In order to KNOW all, one must BECOME all. Without BEING everything, God cannot KNOW/SEE everything.

I explained this before very simply!

Take an infinite number line. You can only be aware of a finite amount of numbers at a time, and no matter how far you zoom out from the number line, you will ONLY see a finite amount of numbers. In reality, infinity of numbers exist. So how do you become aware of ALL THE NUMBERS?? You BECOME the numbers. If you ARE the numbers, then there IS no area on the number line that you're not aware of!

Same goes for God! He must BE everything in order to be aware of everything...

Also, perfection is subjective - what is PERFECT for one person, is WRONG or a MISTAKE for another. Anything that God might do can be considered as good by one person, evil by another. Perfect by one, or a huge mistake by another.

Perfection, as an ideal, is also very LIMITING. Infinity consists of EVERY possibility, and incorporates in itself EVERYTHING. If you say something is PERFECT, then you set a limit and say "You cannot go higher than this, as I decree this to be perfect". However, in an unlimited universe there are no limits! By setting a limit, you create one where there IS NONE. Therefore, perfection only exists as long as you decree something as "perfect", and is therefore subjective. There is ALWAYS room for improvement or alteration! No limits!

Being perfect objectively is a contradiction, and does not exist for obvious reasons outlined above. This won't stop anyone from BELIEVING that subjective reality is true objectively, such is the "miracle of belief".

Originally posted by lilblam
I'd even say, whenever you find the word "Love" in the Bible replace it with "Knowledge", and suddenly the book begins to make surprising sense.

I don't agree.
Can you honestly tell me what real "love" is?
I don't believe there are many people in this world who understand what love means. The love that they experience is always tainted with other emotions - need, fear, sorrow, selfishness.

Love can't be compared with knowledge if it isn't understood.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by lilblam
I'd even say, whenever you find the word "Love" in the Bible replace it with "Knowledge", and suddenly the book begins to make surprising sense.

I don't agree.
Can you honestly tell me what real "love" is?
I don't believe there are many people in this world who understand what love means. The love that they experience is always tainted with other emotions - need, fear, sorrow, selfishness.

Love can't be compared with knowledge if it isn't understood.

But that's precisely it - love IS knowledge. They are precisely one and the same! Synonyms!

Emotion has nothing to do with it at all! Possession, attachment, are all mistaken for love. But love is still KNOWLEDGE. Do you love something that you're not aware of? The more you know something, the more you're intricately aware of all its kinks and details, is that not love? Do you not know more about your "lover" than other people on the street? ANd if you did not, isn't it only LUST or an emotional attachment? You can call it love, but is it?

So yes, I understand precisely what LOVE means, and that is KNOWLEDGE. It's the WILL and DESIRE to know all that there is to know about someone or something, or just everything. The emotional attachment that you build with something is irrelavant and TRANSITORY at best, but love is permanent.
-----------

Now think... do you love another man as you would a woman? Many straight men say NO, but they're NOT speaking of love! THey are speaking of NATURE, they are speaking of LUST, of emotional attachment, of SEX, of everything BUT love. How could you ONLY experience love towards the opposite sex, unless it's not really LOVE. Love is universal, it can be applied to absolutely ANYTHING, it is not bound or limited to "another sex", because then it is just nature taking its course! Don't confuse brain chemicals and "preservation of the species rituals" as love!

[Edited on 13-4-2004 by lilblam]

I know what you're saying dude. To a certain extent I would agree with you, but I believe that there is a flaw in the argument.

Love and knowledge can't always directly equate because of the fear factor. You may have complete knowledge of something but that doesn't mean that there isn't something within it that you aren't afraid of. Understanding something totally doesn't mean that it isn't a threat to you. You can understand why it is a threat, how to deal with it - everything you need to know about it, but you are still going to be left with fear.

I don't believe that pure love contains fear.

I believe knowledge is a stepping stone to love. It's not the whole answer, which I believe love is.

Now if you'd have said, Truth = Love, maybe I would have agreed with you.

blam... once again... you need to show more... because I'm lookin at this and I know for a fact that Christianity has more proof of God than there ever will be of no God. So lil... take your half-arse crazy ideas and shove em.

1) You bash other religions to complete nothingness.
2) You "attempt" to prove something you really can't.
3) Your idea's are so out in the blue, I can't even begin to imagine them.
4) You piss me off, you piss everyone else off with these ideas of yours.

My thoughts:
1) God does exist.
2) Your crazy.
3) THERE HAS BEEN NO ALIEN CONTACT!

If the universe always was and didnt come from anything-thats the same as saying it always existed correct?
Then there must be something outside the universe looking in (at the universe) or else it wouldn't exist. Something must be observing the universe.

Originally posted by KSoze
If the universe always was and didnt come from anything-thats the same as saying it always existed correct?
Then there must be something outside the universe looking in (at the universe) or else it wouldn't exist.

Why does this require something outside of the universe looking at it in order to exist? I'm not catching your logic.

Originally posted by KSoze
If the universe always was and didnt come from anything-thats the same as saying it always existed correct?
Then there must be something outside the universe looking in (at the universe) or else it wouldn't exist. Something must be observing the universe.

Unless you consider eternity to be like a circle - no beginning, no end. Which is what I guess libalam is trying to get at.

Personally I believe that somebody drew that circle in the first place though. Or at least provided the paper for it to be drawn upon.

[Edited on 13-4-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Leveller
I know what you're saying dude. To a certain extent I would agree with you, but I believe that there is a flaw in the argument.

Love and knowledge can't always directly equate because of the fear factor. You may have complete knowledge of something but that doesn't mean that there isn't something within it that you aren't afraid of. Understanding something totally doesn't mean that it isn't a threat to you. You can understand why it is a threat, how to deal with it - everything you need to know about it, but you are still going to be left with fear.

Fear is based on attachment. This means, you have something to LOSE, that you don't want to lose. However, if you know something completely and how to defend against any threats, then the fear is unfounded and is complete paranoia with no logical basis. That is unless the knowledge you have is only temporary or partial - sometimes it works and other times it doesn't. If you have knowledge of how to completely avoid a specific threat 100% of the time, would you THEN be afraid? The problem is, it is very rare that we can obtain this 100% knowledge of something on our level. Knowledge does protect, but absolute knowledge protects absolutely. Absolute knowledge about ANYTHING is almost non-existant on our level of awareness, right?

So there is always room for "exceptions" in our current knowledge, and that is where the fear comes from. However, the fear is still based in our attachments and the fact that we don't want to lose them. Life is also an attachment. Attachments are based on ignorance, as we are playing with an illusion that the attachment is somehow IMPORTANT to have, and we somehow get "hurt" by losing this attachment - the pain is purely in our mind (physical pain exists sure, but part of physical attachment). We let these illusions define us to such an extent that we actually feel pain when we lose an attachment, and feel fear when on the BRINK of losing one. The ignorance part of this, is that we attach to things/people to make ourselves feel GOOD (service to self beings), and therefore we accept the fear/pain that come with LOSING these attachments.

Having NO attachments, means no fear/pain. Simple concept, hard to execute!

I don't believe that pure love contains fear.

In that sense, as I've mentioned above, it is absolute KNOWLEDGE of something, where there IS no "exceptions" because you KNOW how to avoid every possible exception! Pure love HAS no fear, as it would be a contradiction by the very definition!

I believe knowledge is a stepping stone to love. It's not the whole answer, which I believe love is.

Now if you'd have said, Truth = Love, maybe I would have agreed with you.

The difference between knowledge and truth is... what?

False knowledge isn't knowledge, it's simply illusion. Knowledge is all there is, and LOVE is all there is, and GOD is all there is, and LIGHT is all there is. Now let me shine some "light" on this subject, so to speak.

Knowledge = Love = God = Light = All that exists. The spiritualists are missing this ONE key factor that renders their entire philosophy false: KNOWLEDGE. They say GOd is love, and God is all there is, and God is light, but they fail to make the connection that if 2 things are synanynous with a 3rd, they are ALSO synonymous.

Also, 2 things that are infinite, are precisely the same thing!

Leveller, I understand what you're saying when you said there's more to love than just knowledge. However, I think you're not entirely seeing yet what knowledge really means, that it's all-encompassing. Love/God/Knowledge/Light/Universe are precisely the same thing, seen from different angles and in different contexts. Please think about it, and see where you might possibly be confusing love for emotions or for emotional attachment, or for lust.

When you have a BEST FRIEND, do you not love him? Does this not mean you KNOW HIM better than people on the street, or even your other friends? Of course there is always attachment involved in our relationships, hence the term "relationships", but this shouldn't get hopelessly confused for love. Attachment is a service to self property which just feels good, for the sake of feeling good. LOVE is knowledge, it's TRUTH, it's LIGHT, it's GOD, it's all that exists - and is completely BALANCED. WHen you LOVE someone, you seek to know EVERYTHING about them, not just the "Good stuff". You may only be ATTACHED to what you consider to be the "good stuff", but love is completely balanced in the positive/negative. Yin/Yang.

Universe is about perfect balance

I hope you can see that those terms above are indeed synonymous, and nothing is outside of them. Hate is just ignorance, it's based on emotion, brain chemicals, and an ego. Ignorance is the opposite of KNOWLEDGE, opposite of LOVE. These concepts lead into many other revalations if you try to connect them to many things in your life etc.

Hope this helps!

-Mike