Do only the Ignorant and Gullible believe Holocaust Denial Propaganda?

Skyway. When I use the word "denier" in that particular context I am refering to the odius breed of human known as "holocaust deniers".

Truth you say? I have no issue at all with pursueing truth. I do, however, most definitely have an issue with people taking what is legitimate historical research and spinning it for their own agenda, which is usually, though not always, some sort of attack on the Jewish people.

Can we argue, or discuss, the issue as it pertains to how many people died in the camps? Of course we can. However...having said that, it always seems someone on one side of the arguement (discussion) will always, always, always, bring up the fiction that it is a Jewish conspirecy, or that the Jews are somehow using it to pile on the guilt.

My only issue with researching the numbers murdered is the use to which the research is put. So if you want to castigate me, feel free.

Hi seagull,

I do, however, most definitely have an issue with people taking what is legitimate historical research and spinning it for their own agenda, which is usually, though not always, some sort of attack on the Jewish people.

So do you believe that any criticism of the policies and motivations of Israel is inherently an attack of all those of Jewish origin? I ask because there have been much information posted in this thread that is saying that the Holocaust was manipulated (and possibly advanced) by the founders of Israel for their own somewhat nefarious purpose.

I don't mean to ignore your legitimate historical research, as I and everyone I know were raised on a very concrete definition of the brutalities that the Jewish people endured. However, looking further into it is not ignoring how atrocious some people can be.

The term "holocaust deniers" is a blanket misnomer that downplays any sort of discussion. If one is trying to avoid a repetition of history isn't it best to cover the topic from every possible angle?

Hello yourself. Or rather good morning.

To answer your question: No, as I said, I have no issue with legitimate research into the Holocaust in all its horror. If you have issues with the Zionist movement and its actions or inactions during the pre-war years, during the war itself, and post-war years...fine and dandy. JUst don't use the research and the informantion garnered therein to launch attacks against the Jewish people as a whole.

My apologies if I came across any other way...but in my experiance, somewhere along the line someone will use that research to launch attacks against the jewish people as a whole. You know that.

Deniers is a blanket term all right, and I'll not deny it. When I use the term, I am refering solely to those folks who use legitimate research for biased attacks. I am well aware that it is a blanket term, but as I said, it's all too often accurate.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding that may have occured...

As for any criticism of Isreal or its policies being inherently anti semetic: Nope. It can be, yes. But it also can be legitimate criticism as well. Depends upon the context.

Ad hominum (sp?) attacks upon Isreal are, IMHO, usually some form of anti-Jewish bias. Questions concerning Israeli policy perhaps not.

Hope this helps you to understand my viewpoint.

[edit on 3-3-2007 by seagull]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
So was it a misunderstanding that it was reported that Jews were killed by other means such as electrocution and thrown into fire pits

www.nizkor.org...
Reitlinger, with careful analysis of the available sources, determined that Dr. Guerin's 1942 account of the rumor that "Jews were killed by an incredible electric current passed through water" was one of the rumors that surround Belzec and was dispelled by Rudolf Reder's (and Gerstein's) eyewitness account.

There were rumours that they were electrocuted and such, NOT forensic evidence, eyewitness accountes, documentary evidence, and confessions that it happened.

(which is how I've heard the word "Holocaust" was coined?)

What does it matter where the term comes from? The Jews call it the Shoah and in yiddish Khurbn. The Roma call it "Porajmos", the Devouring. Does the fact that the nazis werent' cannibals mean that they didn't try to destroy the Roma?


[qujote]However, did the numbers get officially reduced at Auschwitz?
The Soviets initially said that around 4 million people were killed there, but the historians have pretty much allways said it was a different number. It is yet another example of how holocaust deniers lie and mislead in order to cover up the holocaust.

www.nizkor.org...
Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.
[...]
all of the denier's blustering about the "Four Million Variant" is a specious attempt to envelope the reader into their web of deceit, and it can be discarded after the most rudimentary examination of published histories

are you saying you know 100% what happened

Obviously not.

or are you in the same boat of ignorance as everyone else?

Since I am basing my understanding on the information, no, I don't think it can be called ignorance. Since the major holocaust deniers use lies, denials, and ignore evidence, yeah, they're either ignorant or frauds.

However, to my understanding Israel has been more of an offensive threat than you would like to admit

I notice that now you are trying to deflect the topic onto 'the crimes of the jews', rather than discuss the evidence. Israel is irrelevant. It didn't exist at the time, and clearly has nothing to do with the holocaust. The nazis said that they'd get rid of the jews, they moved them into camps, millions of them died, and they had homocidal gas chambers. Seems clear from that alone what happened, nevermind the confessions, documents, eye witness testimonies, forensic evidence, etc.

And what a spectuacular failure of the Nazis if they said they'd annihilate the jews, rounded them up, but were too incompetent to do it. The crime was horrible, but its a joke to say that the nazis werent' competent enough to do it.

If you have the time I would be very interested to know what you think of the article at the following link

I do not beleive that the jews are an evil world controlling cabal, no. ANd I think that peopel that do beleive this are, definitionally, racists. I don't know what you beleive, but if somone thinks that the jews are these snivieling manipulative greedy beasts, then yes they're racist.

Freedom ERP
do not see one that denys some event took place and that the Nazis attempted to minimum the jewish population in the European countries they invaded

People are denying that there was a plan to destroy them. They are denying that there were gas chambers. And they are saying that the jews, as a group, are liars who made it up, or did it themselves. This is holocaust denial. None of it is true.

There are posts that question the numbers not the event. I think we have seperate these two

If someone is saying that the holocaust was real, except that it resulted in 4 million german deaths instead of around 6 million, then fine, they're not also saying that there were no gas chambers. Doesn't look like anyone is saying that it was only the numbers that were an error, and everyone saying that there was a problem with the numbers seems to also be saying that there is a jew conspiracy and 'industry' to keep up the 'lie'.

Just because a link is to a non jewish or jewish based information site, does not give it more creditability that any other source

You can not simply say 'some people say its 4 million, therefore, I will choose to accept that'. YOu need to be able to give a reason to accept the 4 million figure. Everyone who studies the records and demographics argees that it was around 6 million. Some give estimates of between 5 million, some give estimates of 5.4-5.92 million, etc. These estimates are based on a rational examination of the evidence. Who is providing good evidence for 4 million and isn't also perpetrating the lie that there was no intent, that there were no gas chambers, that the jews aren't making a consiracy, etc?

Skyway
That's what this place is for....denying ignorance

Seagull was saying that the person making the denial has an irrational contempt for the jews, and that that is why they are making the denial. SO no, this is not a website for anti-jewish racism and ignoring evidence. This is a site for examining the evidence, thats what denying ignorance means, it means not rejecting somethign on the face of it. Holocaust denial shouldn't be rejected on the face of it, it should be rejected because there is positive evidence for the holocaust, and because holocaust denial has failed to refute that evidence.

Ok I feel the need to chime in on this and as me not as Seagull in disguise Although Seagull and I do indeed disagree on some topics; on this one we are in agreement. Holocaust deniers do tend to use disagreement on numbers as a basis for saying well if numbers are wrong then it must not have happened. Oh look it must be the Jews once again trying to get us all to feel sorry for themselves." , or some such nonsense. As Seagull stated very clearly the Holocaust was a horror the likes of which must never be allowed to happen again; whether it was 6 million or 4 million or whatever number doesn't really matter; it was still horrific it was not a fabrication it is a historical fact; it happened. The systematic extermination of a people as a whole was the goal of the holocaust period.

For the record I don't believe that being a Holoocaust denier should be a crime as long as the denial is confined to speech or written communication; while I believe deniers are at the very least misguided and at worst people with a racist agenda they do have the right to express themselves without fear of jail.

Also just to make a previous poster happy I'll state I'm white, female and a Catholic so no I don't have my own agenda on this topic other then a desire for the truth.

Seagull
...I hope this clears up any misunderstanding that may have occured...

Thanks for replying, that was well said. Please understand that I was upset that a lot of people automatically label certain views as sole product of ignorance and gullibility (or racism). I very much understand that in a lot of ways I come off that way, so thank you for stating your view so diplomatically.

Nygdan
There were rumours that they were electrocuted and such, NOT forensic evidence, eyewitness accountes, documentary evidence, and confessions that it happened.

Yes I see your point. I don't post much and should choose my arguments more carefully when I do. The gas chambers don't seem like the most efficient way of exterminating such a large number, but far be it from me to try to think of a better way to do it. That's not the point, and I don't want to come off as insensitive.

I notice that now you are trying to deflect the topic onto 'the crimes of the jews', rather than discuss the evidence. Israel is irrelevant. It didn't exist at the time, and clearly has nothing to do with the holocaust.

You are assuming way too much with this statement. It seems like you're working on the assumption that I'm racist, however thank you for not stating that emphatically as I honestly don't mean to be. I mention Israel because there is speculation that the Zionist movement would have done anything to bring about its existence, including some very horrible and misleading things. Its relevant to the holocaust because there is information that suggests that many in power, not limited to Zionist leaders, knew what was happening and could've done something but purposely didn't. Not all Jews are Zionists, and many Jews have a problem with Zionism as the movement "could've" manipulated Jewish scripture to bring about it's own goals, which "could" have nothing to do with helping anyone but themselves. If it is true that the Jewish people had a mandate on that land, is it also true that the mandate was suppose to be fulfilled by a larger spiritual force, and not by events that could have been stopped? I realize I need to organize my thoughts better to not give off the impression of defining the victims as evil.

At the very least, the Holocaust debate has much to do with Israel and it's policies. Last time I checked there was a lot of turmoil in the Middle East, and Israel has at least a tiny bit something to do with it. Also Israel has a very large influence on American politics, and a large amount of politcal, financial, and economic aid is given to Israsel. At the very least I have a right to know what my tax dollars are supporting. I hope my ignorance doesn't offend you, as I understand you grasp something that I don't yet. What bothers me is that some people dismiss certain possibilities all together without the least amount of thought.

Thank you very much for replying and not being as hard on me personally as you could've.

Everyone, holy crap, stop!

Do you hear yourselves?

"Does it matter if it was 1 million or 6 million?"

YES.

Why?

Deny ignorance.

Does it make the Nazis less wrong? I don't think so. But it's a matter of truth, not opinion!

Finding the truth DOES NOT mean you hate someone! Should we believe in the Holocaust as we believe in religion, through faith and without doubt? Or should we hold the story to the same standards as everything else?


Sorry, just because you like to be ignorant, doesn't mean that you have to pressure people out of research by condemning them and calling them ignorant (ironic, isn't it?), racist Nazis.



Now, let's start and actually see what evidence of the holocaust we have, and then analyze it, like we do here with 9/11.

[edit on 3-3-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
You are assuming way too much with this statement.

Its allways possible, yes.

I mention Israel because there is speculation that the Zionist movement would have done anything to bring about its existence, including some very horrible and misleading things.

Speculation, yes, and primarily from anti-jewish racists and nazis.

Its relevant to the holocaust because there is information that suggests that many in power, not limited to Zionist leaders, knew what was happening and could've done something but purposely didn't.

That, of course, would require that the holocaust happened, which is the topic under consideration here.

Not all Jews are Zionists, and many Jews have a problem with Zionism as the movement "could've" manipulated Jewish scripture to bring about it's own goals,

There are two kinds of jews that have an issue with Zionism, one set simply disagree with teh politics of it, the other set disagree with teh existence of modern Israel on religious grounds. They feel that the religious requirements were NOT met for the creation of Israel, and thus that it is not the 'real' Israel, its just a secular state for them.

If it is true that the Jewish people had a mandate on that land

The british held the mandate. The international community at the time was 'assigning' parts of the world, in this case part of the ottoman empire, to the european 'great powers' to administer, to prevent chaos. The british held "Palestine" as a mandate, amoung other places. The British are the ones that decided to let the Jews in part of the Palestine Mandate form a state of their own. The other part they gave to the Arabs.

, is it also true that the mandate was suppose to be fulfilled by a larger spiritual force, and not by events that could have been stopped?

The modern state of Isreal is not recognized as the fufilment of prophecy by the very religious amoung the Jews. It was a secular/worldly/political process that lead to its creation. The British, to say the least, are not "The Messiak" of Jewish lore.

At the very least, the Holocaust debate has much to do with Israel and it's policies.

It simply has nothing to do with it. There is nothing that specualtion about Israel can tell us about the actual documentary and physical evidence about the holocaust.

Also Israel has a very large influence on American politics, and a large amount of politcal, financial, and economic aid is given to Israsel.

And this is because Israel is a freindly democratic western style nation amidst a sea of islamist tyrannies and socialist-nationalist dictatorships.

What bothers me is that some people dismiss certain possibilities all together without the least amount of thought.

I agree, there is no reason to dismiss something out of hand. BUT, at the same time, are we really accomplishing anything by saying that the jews might've been just as the nazis described them? Don't you see that much of what the holocaust denial 'movement' says about the jews is infact the old nazi propaganda that was used the first time to exterminate the jews?

Thank you very much for replying and not being as hard on me personally as you could've.

If I go over the top sometimes, its because I think that racism is a really sickening problem. And its especially horrific to see people saying that the holocaust didn't happen, and that the jews are as evil as the nazis were saying, or worse, that the jews themselves 'did the holocaust', this is blaming the victim for the crime perpetrated on them. It doesn't matter that peopel say, 'well I mean zionist jews, not all jews'. I mean, people have blamed the jews for every problem in the world, literally, and now they're even being blamed for the holocaust. These are the same slanders that lead to the holocaust. Its not like the germans were foaming at the mouth lusting after jewish blood. They really beleived that the jews were all working together, that they were seeking to secretly undermine germany, that they started wwi, and caused germany to loose it, that they were responsible for the collapse of the germany economy, rather than the idiotic centrist german economic policies. They're scapegoated, literally, and ended up dying by the millions for it. And the holocaust denial is doing nothing more than seeking to do it again, scapegoating the jews FOR the holocaust no less! Such perversion!

As most of us know, the Jews have throughout most of their long history been scapegoats for the ills of the world.

"oh lookie there, the dam burst. It must be the Jews." or "oh my god, its the plauge, it must be the Jews fault that god is mad at us." and other reasons just as insane.

Political agendas, religious fervor, or a nasty combination of both have led to horrific pogroms that rivaled the Holocaust for sheer hatred, if not actual numbers of murdered; and the only reason the numbers didn't match is because of technology and the fact there weren't that many Jews. Every European nation has a history of pogroms launched against the Jews, as do most Middle Eastern nations. Even America has a history of bias against the Jews, though we have stopped short of trying to murder all of them. Because of this history and the fact that deep down European Jews fear it could happen again (God forbid), I can't really blame them for being paranoid, or Israel for having an institutional paranoia.

When they hear characters like David Dukes, or Iran's President Ahminijiad (sp!) rail against international jewry as a plauge to be irradicated, and for the distruction of Israel, is it any wonder, really? I'd certainly be paranoid.

Originally posted by seagull
"oh lookie there, the dam burst. It must be the Jews." or "oh my god, its the plauge, it must be the Jews fault that god is mad at us."

Why are you writing such hysterical nonsense, get a grip And the Iranian president and others spoke out against ZIONISM, not jews. Why everytime do people deliberately confuse the two.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com
www.nkuk.org

[edit on 4-3-2007 by golddragnet]

Originally posted by golddragnet
Why are you writing such hysterical nonsense, get a grip And the Iranian president and others spoke out against ZIONISM, not jews. Why everytime do people deliberately confuse the two.

Because the people who do are stupid beyond belief, its easy to just call someone ant-semitic and let the hysterical crowd yell at them like a bunch of moronic fools.

Hystrical nonsense? Uh-huh...whatever floats your boat. The history of Europe is full of such hysterical nonsense. Try reading some of it...

"Stupid beyond belief"...how typical of your responces of late, Mazzroth. Really, you should try refuting the statements instead of basking in the light of your own ignorance. Do your personal attacks help you sleep at night?

Originally posted by seagull
Hystrical nonsense? Uh-huh...whatever floats your boat. The history of Europe is full of such hysterical nonsense. Try reading some of it...

I studied European history for many years at university and lectured in it. I can guarantee my knowledge of european history far outweighs yours. And I am jewish, get a grip. You certainly are being hysterical.

Originally posted by golddragnet

Originally posted by seagull
"oh lookie there, the dam burst. It must be the Jews." or "oh my god, its the plauge, it must be the Jews fault that god is mad at us."

Why are you writing such hysterical nonsense, get a grip And the Iranian president and others spoke out against ZIONISM, not jews. Why everytime do people deliberately confuse the two.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com
www.nkuk.org

[edit on 4-3-2007 by golddragnet]

tell that to Nygdan and others that make try and make biggots of people that dont believe what they believe.

so far the only ones to point the finger at Jews and call jews evils are the ones that believe in the history books, and calling the rest of us gullible because we are looking for other answers.

Originally posted by tom goose
tell that to Nygdan and others that make try and make biggots of people that dont believe what they believe.

so far the only ones to point the finger at Jews and call jews evils are the ones that believe in the history books.

I know what you mean, and Nygdan is a moderator for ATS, where did they find him???

You guys are still free to present any evidence to support your claims, or to take up and refute the evidence for the holocaust.

You continue to opt not to. What do any of you think that people can conclude from that, in regards to ignorance and gullibility?

The Bottom line with all this "the jews done it" sydrome is the collective generational guilt of the crucifiction. The over reaction to any criticism lies deep in the phyche of them and to have come up with words like Gentile and Anti-Semite belies the fact they have born the brunt of accusations of conspiracy for time immemorial.

Get over it for goodness sake and more importantly for the worlds sake as the influence Jewry has is totally disproportionate to their percentile of population on this planet. The "everyones picking on me" position is infantile and we no longer fall for it here in the west as its clear that in general the race of Jew is doing better than most financially and enjoy almost unparalleled power.

It's not so much ignorance driven, as it is agenda driven. These men and women have an agenda of hatred or politics. As we all know, blaming the Jew usually works...and denying some or all of the Holocaust is part and partial to their agenda of blaming the Jew for all the ills of the world.
quote]Originally posted by seagull

Why do people who choose to reexamine the official story, have to have an insidious agenda? Why can't simply seeking the truth be motive enough? None of the revisionist research I've read has claimed that there was no holocaust, only that it may have been exaggerated and fueled by propaganda as tragedies often are.

I don't understand why anyone is getting upset over this. The Jews suffered horribly during WW 2. But whether they numbered 6 million or the new official count of under 1 million, they were hardly alone. The world wide loss of life during that war was 60 million people. What about them? Who cry's for them. It's not all about the Jewa!

Originally posted by dollmonster
But whether they numbered 6 million or the new official count of under 1 million, they were hardly alone.

could you provide a link to this new official count of under 1 million. Last I checked, it was still in the 5.5-6 range

Originally posted by Nygdan
You guys are still free to present any evidence to support your claims, or to take up and refute the evidence for the holocaust.

You continue to opt not to. What do any of you think that people can conclude from that, in regards to ignorance and gullibility?

More nonsense, I already posted evidence from Auswitz that revised their figures downwards. I never suggested the holocaust didn't actually happen, you seem to have a very simplistic black and white view of things. It seems clear that one of the motivations of the author of this thread is to find out as much about the real causes and effects of the holocaust as much as he is looking for verification of the numbers themselves.
Why did you say I continue not to? Does it make you feel smug to imagine you somehow have the upperhand or know more about the subject than the rest of us. Your views of the events seem to have come from the mainstream media. Did you actually study the events, from historical records rather than hearsay and jumping to conclusions. Your last post does display your own enormous ignorance to even use those words. Your posts also use excessive quoting and are tedious to say the very least, and far too much waffling. There should be a higher standard required for the moderators on this website.
Your obnoxious nature is clearly annoying some of the other posters